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On October 06 2011 11:54 Fallians wrote:
High plat zerg here, the other day I played a game against a toss in which he went for blink stalkers colossus, before the patch my reaction to that was NP the colossus and let roach/hydra clean up the stalkers. Usually this works out okay, but with the targeting upgrade on his colossus(+micro) I lost 2 big confrontations then lost the game. Does anyone else think that infestor usage (in direct confrontations) is dead now in ZvP?
I wouldn't quite say they're dead in ZvP, they're actually still quite good, they just are not the same as before where with enough infestors (>10) you could fungal the entire army, lose a couple on accident, and still have enough left to neural every collossus while still keeping the army locked in fungals and dying shortly thereafter. Now, infestors play more of a support role instead of being the backbone of the army, I feel.
On October 06 2011 15:14 HenryZ wrote:
Quick question, going muta vs 2 base collosus allin is a good idea right?
If a protoss is going 2 robo collossus off of two base, then he's likely not going to have many stalkers as almost all of his gas is going into collossus production/upgrades. That makes muta pretty good if you can get a decent number of them out. It essentially means that in the engagement, you only have to kill all of his stalkers and you win by default (provided you dont lose your entire base).
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On October 06 2011 11:54 Fallians wrote:
High plat zerg here, the other day I played a game against a toss in which he went for blink stalkers colossus, before the patch my reaction to that was NP the colossus and let roach/hydra clean up the stalkers. Usually this works out okay, but with the targeting upgrade on his colossus(+micro) I lost 2 big confrontations then lost the game. Does anyone else think that infestor usage (in direct confrontations) is dead now in ZvP?
I think mass infestor style is dead but getting 2-3 infestors for fungal growth is still what i do. But going mass roach corruptor + 2-3 infestors is what i'm trying to do these days. But right now infestors are a longer shot because it is a lot of tech invesment.
But no it certainly is not dead.
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On October 06 2011 03:34 c0ldfusion wrote:
Diamond zerg here.
Many of you suggested roach -> corrupter into the mid-game in ZvP. With only roach I'm having trouble defending against mass blink stalkers with this build. Maybe I need to scout a bit sooner and grab some infestors but I was wondering if there is a safer mid-game composition against toss - maybe mass ling/roach?
Mass roach vs blink stalker is close to suicide. Your goals in a zvp is to get an early third, constantly poke his front, and drone as much as possible. You basically need to first determine if a 6 gate is coming, or anything else. You need to know this by 7:30 at the latest. If constant chrono is on the forge, you can assume its not going towards blink, so massing mostly roach, some ling is the idea. Start producing around 7:30 if it's a 1-3 gate expo, or 8:00 if it's a FFE.
However, if you determine it's not a 6 gate, you should have an overseer scouting by 9-9:30. Before this, you should have dropped an extra hatch and produced another queen bringing you to 4 hatch 4 queens, this allows you to, if you scout the twilight producing, or a lot of stalkers, mass an absurd amount of lings with a decent amount of roaches to overwhelm him. But your main army for fighting a mass blink stalker army should be, as you said, mostly ling with roach support.
Engage with everything, when lings are almost dead, pull the roaches back and wait for the next round of lings (4 hatch will be giving you over 48 lings/minute if you're on top of injects). The roaches are mainly there for the burst damage which will finish stalkers, ling damage is very consistent and easy to blink micro.
Finally, if you scout that he's going a different tech path (dts or robo, stargate would obviously be shown by then), you actually can continue to drone up even harder and then going into spire for either mutas or roach/corruptor is very viable with the massive economy.
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On October 06 2011 05:41 CookieMaker wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 05:13 Monkeyballs25 wrote:On October 06 2011 05:01 MrBitter wrote:On October 06 2011 04:45 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
Super quick question. Do you need anything special to stop a protoss 1 base immortal/zealot attack? I only had slow lings and possibly too many drones, so I sacced a lot of those drones and lost later. Are mass speedlings ok or should I have some roaches? Can't say that I've run into this recently. (maybe ever?) But off the top of my head: Banelings will turn it into pure ling vs pure immortal. But I would think that you'd be able to defend with only lings and spines. Roaches would probably work too, quite frankly. Yeah it took me by surprise too  I saw the super early robo and didn't put 2+2 together. If any decent sized army will stop it I'm not too worried then, was just a "built too many drones" fail on my part. Probably that was it, this push sounds weird and not solid. Best options imo are mass ling + some banes to rape the Z's (im assuming he doesnt have charge, that means they're grouped up). Make sure your lings get the surround on the immos, don't engage until he moves the zealots forward from the immos. You should realistically have 2 saturated bases running by the time this hits(3+ immos), meaning stupid amounts of lings. If you think the push is going to come really late, remember that 2base is WAY more than enough money to constantly produce lings, you'll need a macro hatch or safe 3rd.
I just watched the replay, it was even worse than I thought. He moved out with 6 Zs, 2 immos and 1 stalker, no upgrades at 8:00 or so, then reinforced with more Zs from a proxy pylon "hidden" at the 3rd on TDE. At the time he had 23 probes and I had 35. Given another 20 lings instead of 10 drones it would have been fine, and speed would have been done.
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On October 06 2011 15:40 Baseic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 06:22 freewareplayer wrote:On October 06 2011 00:01 freewareplayer wrote:
High diamond Zerg here and im completly lost when playing vs well executed mech.
What unit composition/tactic do i need when i face Thor/Hellion/Tank as main army, some vikings, some banshees and about 2 ravens for PDD? The PDDs makes Corruptors and Mutas useless, so my broodlords just die to the vikings and even a big amount of Mutas will fall to the Thors + vikings without doing anything thanks to the pdd, Roaches alone vs tank thor + banshee doesnt go well after that...
I dont even have a clue on how to kill that, apart from never letting it happen, but if the Terran turtles hard enough its not like you can really prevent it.
Bump It's mech so you should expand alot and get up a huge economy. Then you should tech to ultra, it is possible to kill the ground army with a huge ultra/bling ball. (Attack move ultras, move blings, only attack moving when you have a huge surround). Once the ground army has been cleaned up you pretty much won. That's my tactic, I can provide a replay, but only vs. a very bad terran. (High diamond too)
Ultra vs Mech? that works? I can imagine the mass baneling being of use after nestea doing it twice this gsl tho.A replay would be very much apreciated if possible.
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On October 06 2011 23:40 freewareplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 15:40 Baseic wrote:On October 06 2011 06:22 freewareplayer wrote:On October 06 2011 00:01 freewareplayer wrote:
High diamond Zerg here and im completly lost when playing vs well executed mech.
What unit composition/tactic do i need when i face Thor/Hellion/Tank as main army, some vikings, some banshees and about 2 ravens for PDD? The PDDs makes Corruptors and Mutas useless, so my broodlords just die to the vikings and even a big amount of Mutas will fall to the Thors + vikings without doing anything thanks to the pdd, Roaches alone vs tank thor + banshee doesnt go well after that...
I dont even have a clue on how to kill that, apart from never letting it happen, but if the Terran turtles hard enough its not like you can really prevent it.
Bump It's mech so you should expand alot and get up a huge economy. Then you should tech to ultra, it is possible to kill the ground army with a huge ultra/bling ball. (Attack move ultras, move blings, only attack moving when you have a huge surround). Once the ground army has been cleaned up you pretty much won. That's my tactic, I can provide a replay, but only vs. a very bad terran. (High diamond too) Ultra vs Mech? that works? I can imagine the mass baneling being of use after nestea doing it twice this gsl tho.A replay would be very much apreciated if possible.
Let me get some replays for you, I only do Ultra/baneling in the lategame and it can punish out of position mech and biomech so bad its unreal.
EDIT : here you go, 4 replays from Ultralisk/baneling against Mech and all other kinds of stuff.
http://www.mediafire.com/?py0l3935fk9qxb8
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On October 06 2011 23:40 freewareplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 15:40 Baseic wrote:On October 06 2011 06:22 freewareplayer wrote:On October 06 2011 00:01 freewareplayer wrote:
High diamond Zerg here and im completly lost when playing vs well executed mech.
What unit composition/tactic do i need when i face Thor/Hellion/Tank as main army, some vikings, some banshees and about 2 ravens for PDD? The PDDs makes Corruptors and Mutas useless, so my broodlords just die to the vikings and even a big amount of Mutas will fall to the Thors + vikings without doing anything thanks to the pdd, Roaches alone vs tank thor + banshee doesnt go well after that...
I dont even have a clue on how to kill that, apart from never letting it happen, but if the Terran turtles hard enough its not like you can really prevent it.
Bump It's mech so you should expand alot and get up a huge economy. Then you should tech to ultra, it is possible to kill the ground army with a huge ultra/bling ball. (Attack move ultras, move blings, only attack moving when you have a huge surround). Once the ground army has been cleaned up you pretty much won. That's my tactic, I can provide a replay, but only vs. a very bad terran. (High diamond too) Ultra vs Mech? that works? I can imagine the mass baneling being of use after nestea doing it twice this gsl tho.A replay would be very much apreciated if possible.
I think Broodlords are a better choice vs tank heavy mech (With some infestors to fungal vikings). If he has no bio, roaches are quite good vs mech with infestor support. But ultra works to if you can catch him in transition or if the map has more spread out expansions.
Some other pointers:
You should expand even more when facing mech take your half of the map asap, harass his main/outmast expansions with small drops, avoid engaging sieged up tanks try to combat him in transition, kill stray tanks with mutas, use infested terrans on tanks to make him kill himself with splash damage.
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how do I deal with a 6 pool where the opponent makes 9 drones, 4 lings and brings everything + makes a spine crawler in my base?
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On October 07 2011 23:57 pphp wrote:
how do I deal with a 6 pool where the opponent makes 9 drones, 4 lings and brings everything + makes a spine crawler in my base?
Stall the engagement as much as possible and attack him with everything when the spine is ~70% complete. You should have more workers than he has lings/drones by then.
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Mid masters zerg here with a problem that has been plaguing me since mutas became the new standard in zvz: How on earth do I come back into the game when the opponent has more mutas than I do initially?
Here is a replay where I knew he was going mutas, so I try to go mutas too...but I knew I was behind in mutas numbers...especially once I quit the game 'cause he at least 8+ mutas on me.
The usual roach/hydra does not work at. all. Muta/ling/bling wrecks that completely (or so has been my experience). A roach timing does not work either because, if they scout it, then they throw up spines, stall with lings and mutas as they pop, then counter attack and totally pwn my face (or so has been my experience...again).
Infestors you say? How!? They just get sniped by mutas! As I write this, however, perhaps a muta opening with a transition to infestors may work, but how long does that take, and how far ahead would that put him?? :/
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How the hell do you win zvz's when do you expand, when you take your third? It all seems so gimicky, if you make even 3 extra drones you can lose in the early game and if you decide you want full saturation on your natural and your opponent goes for only semi saturation you basically auto lose if they attack. Should zvz just be considered cheese city? Should I just work on my all in micro and screw the mid-late game zvz's? It seems like zvz doesn't last very long anyways.
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On October 08 2011 11:27 Amaterasu1234 wrote:Mid masters zerg here with a problem that has been plaguing me since mutas became the new standard in zvz: How on earth do I come back into the game when the opponent has more mutas than I do initially? Here is a replay where I knew he was going mutas, so I try to go mutas too...but I knew I was behind in mutas numbers...especially once I quit the game 'cause he at least 8+ mutas on me. The usual roach/hydra does not work at. all. Muta/ling/bling wrecks that completely (or so has been my experience). A roach timing does not work either because, if they scout it, then they throw up spines, stall with lings and mutas as they pop, then counter attack and totally pwn my face (or so has been my experience...again). Infestors you say? How!? They just get sniped by mutas! As I write this, however, perhaps a muta opening with a transition to infestors may work, but how long does that take, and how far ahead would that put him?? :/
It's hard to be behind in mutas and I don't know if infestor is really worth it as they are so vulnerable when they try to leave the base without support. I never seem to make them work.
If you suspect him going muta, scout his front and once he starts building spines, contain him, get a 3rd up while teching mutas yourself. Hopefully you'll catch up to his muta count in time once your extra gas kicks in.
As for infestor:
Infestation pit: 50 sec.
Patogen glands: 80 sec
Infestor: 50 sec.
Start infestor after glands is 30/80 complete. Total time: 50 + 30 + 50 = 130 s = 2 min 10 s. Pretty long.
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On October 08 2011 11:34 TheLastGoose wrote:
How the hell do you win zvz's when do you expand, when you take your third? It all seems so gimicky, if you make even 3 extra drones you can lose in the early game and if you decide you want full saturation on your natural and your opponent goes for only semi saturation you basically auto lose if they attack. Should zvz just be considered cheese city? Should I just work on my all in micro and screw the mid-late game zvz's? It seems like zvz doesn't last very long anyways.
Zvz is indeed a bit random in nature due to the hard to scout rock-paper-scissors builds. In the early game, ling/drone balance is a bit random but once roaches start kicking in, the game slows down.
Natural:
Either you 14g14p, build 4 lings and expand around 20 supply (get a spine or two in case of banelings), or you 15-16 expand before pool. If you were going for banelings, expand as soon as you feel that you can't do any more offensive damage with them.
Third:
In my experience, once both players confirm that the other player is going roach, there is somewhat of a economic timing window due to the slowness of non speed roaches off creep. You'll often have time to build enough defenses and kill him with faster reinforcements once you see him move out unless you are severly behind in roaches. Use that window to saturate bases and take a 3rd.
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On October 08 2011 11:27 Amaterasu1234 wrote:Mid masters zerg here with a problem that has been plaguing me since mutas became the new standard in zvz: How on earth do I come back into the game when the opponent has more mutas than I do initially? Here is a replay where I knew he was going mutas, so I try to go mutas too...but I knew I was behind in mutas numbers...especially once I quit the game 'cause he at least 8+ mutas on me. The usual roach/hydra does not work at. all. Muta/ling/bling wrecks that completely (or so has been my experience). A roach timing does not work either because, if they scout it, then they throw up spines, stall with lings and mutas as they pop, then counter attack and totally pwn my face (or so has been my experience...again). Infestors you say? How!? They just get sniped by mutas! As I write this, however, perhaps a muta opening with a transition to infestors may work, but how long does that take, and how far ahead would that put him?? :/
Roach/Hydra can and does work.
You just can't really attack until you max.
Turtle, play slow, and gogo when you've got a ball of stuff he can't really deal with.
If you go muta, and he goes muta, and you find yourself behind, I really think the best way to bounce back is to start adding corrupters while switching into infestor tech.
Not crazy about this matchup because of all the craziness that's happening in it right now, but it is exciting to see that its still evolving a year into the life of the game.
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For ZvZ you need hydras and infestors, make like 5-6 hydras to hold off the intial wave of mutas, then start getting infestors, once you get a fungal the hydras can clean up, infestors dont do enough damage on their own and mutas can just pick them off 1 for 1 without worrying about fungas if you dont have hydras to attack them, if you have both though just make sure to be watchful and if you ever hit a fungal you can do a lot of damage.
If you already went for mutas and are behind you should just play defensively while teching hydra infestor in my experience. Try to counter with your mutas and make his chase yours around to buy time for that comp to kick in.
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Hey guys im completely lost in ZvP right now, it seems fucking impossible I'm so frustrated with the match up right now I don't even know what to say, if I dont baneling bust or do some other stupid cheese I feel like I always lose once they have 4-5 collosus.
Right now I typically open up 3 base ling bane drop into a 4th base while droning it up, I can generally kill the entire ground army minus the collosus if they are going for that tech, after this attack I typically drop a spire and infestation pit mass up some roaches for a counter attack and try to hold on with Roach Corruptor until broodlords kick in. I find I have a lot of trouble denying 3rd and 4th bases with this style but it seems like the only build I ever do any real damage with otherwise, all of these robo openings are completing owning my standard roach timings, and a 3 base death ball feels as overpowered as ever.
I'm mid-high masters, any builds that work pretty consistently vs the standard stalker colo ball that wont die to 6 gate all ins?
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On October 08 2011 17:43 BinxyBrown wrote:
Hey guys im completely lost in ZvP right now, it seems fucking impossible I'm so frustrated with the match up right now I don't even know what to say, if I dont baneling bust or do some other stupid cheese I feel like I always lose once they have 4-5 collosus.
Right now I typically open up 3 base ling bane drop into a 4th base while droning it up, I can generally kill the entire ground army minus the collosus if they are going for that tech, after this attack I typically drop a spire and infestation pit mass up some roaches for a counter attack and try to hold on with Roach Corruptor until broodlords kick in. I find I have a lot of trouble denying 3rd and 4th bases with this style but it seems like the only build I ever do any real damage with otherwise, all of these robo openings are completing owning my standard roach timings, and a 3 base death ball feels as overpowered as ever.
I'm mid-high masters, any builds that work pretty consistently vs the standard stalker colo ball that wont die to 6 gate all ins?
Against 3g expo 6 gates, you need to be able to spot it early and make a huge number of units. It's easier to defend FFE 6 gates IMO, just because you can do it with ling/roach if you have good timing. I don't think you even need to scout it until you see units moving across the map just because you have such a great production off 3 bases.
Right now I am opening 15 pool 16 hatch or pool/gas opening for a speedling expand, then grabbing my evo chamber, roach warren, and adding on more gasses at around 6:20 or earlier if I scout <3 sentries at the natural just because there may be DTs. Lots of people try to hold off 6/7 gates with burrow roaches, which can work, but I feel that its difficult to follow up without researching tunneling. Also, any robo 6 gate will wreck your day since you are banking on your burrow to work. Another way is to get fast drop tech, but usually this doesn't allow you to build a big enough army, and a protoss can usually win if they spread their units out far enough. Personally, massed ling/roach is the best way purely because protoss players have to choose between making sentries, stalkers, and zeaolots, which your roaches are good against zealot/sentries and lings are good against stalkers.
Once you are entering the mid game, you need either (or a combination of the following):
1) Drop tech
2) Corruptors
3) Banelings (with drop)
Your goal is to force his army into a compact space and hella drop him with banelings, as well as harassing his mineral lines constantly with banelings. With corruptors, you just need to make sure you can remax because you will -usually- not be able to kill his army completely with yours. Having only drop roaches can work well, just because of how colossus attack. Their attacks will be more spread out and less effective. As well, with more upgrades, roaches get insanely strong. I have won games with only overlords and roaches before. You just need to multitask like crazy though.
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ok noob question - if z and p/t have the same bases, same no of workers totally, and the zerg gold is at ~200 levels but the p/t has 2000 gold - can we have the same army size? I just played a game vs a toss who had similar worker and base count but still had a bigger army size and had floating gold...arghh what the proper response to a FFE?! I keep losing to turtling toss who max out and A move with stalker colossus!
http://drop.sc/41704
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On October 09 2011 05:13 vahgar.r24 wrote:ok noob question - if z and p/t have the same bases, same no of workers totally, and the zerg gold is at ~200 levels but the p/t has 2000 gold - can we have the same army size? I just played a game vs a toss who had similar worker and base count but still had a bigger army size and had floating gold...arghh what the proper response to a FFE?! I keep losing to turtling toss who max out and A move with stalker colossus! http://drop.sc/41704
It depends on the map--some maps allow for nydus / roach allin vs FFE. If you get your drone scout in before the nexus goes down, you can also take their natural and force them to pull probes to kill it (cancel then scout their main).
If you're not up for gimmicky play, the standard response is just to get a really really fast third--like, at 18-20 supply.
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On October 07 2011 01:57 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 23:40 freewareplayer wrote:On October 06 2011 15:40 Baseic wrote:On October 06 2011 06:22 freewareplayer wrote:On October 06 2011 00:01 freewareplayer wrote:
High diamond Zerg here and im completly lost when playing vs well executed mech.
What unit composition/tactic do i need when i face Thor/Hellion/Tank as main army, some vikings, some banshees and about 2 ravens for PDD? The PDDs makes Corruptors and Mutas useless, so my broodlords just die to the vikings and even a big amount of Mutas will fall to the Thors + vikings without doing anything thanks to the pdd, Roaches alone vs tank thor + banshee doesnt go well after that...
I dont even have a clue on how to kill that, apart from never letting it happen, but if the Terran turtles hard enough its not like you can really prevent it.
Bump It's mech so you should expand alot and get up a huge economy. Then you should tech to ultra, it is possible to kill the ground army with a huge ultra/bling ball. (Attack move ultras, move blings, only attack moving when you have a huge surround). Once the ground army has been cleaned up you pretty much won. That's my tactic, I can provide a replay, but only vs. a very bad terran. (High diamond too) Ultra vs Mech? that works? I can imagine the mass baneling being of use after nestea doing it twice this gsl tho.A replay would be very much apreciated if possible. Let me get some replays for you, I only do Ultra/baneling in the lategame and it can punish out of position mech and biomech so bad its unreal. EDIT : here you go, 4 replays from Ultralisk/baneling against Mech and all other kinds of stuff. http://www.mediafire.com/?py0l3935fk9qxb8
tyvm man, will try that out
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So I'm completely lost in the ZvP matchup. I have no idea how to play it properly. Against protoss that try to play economically (forge FE basically) I try to get a quick 3 bases and scout and react accordingly, usually trying to do some sort of roach pressure to deny the third as long as possible. On maps where a fast third isn't possible I usually do 2 base infestor with an infestor/ling attack by the 10ish minute mark, which seems sort of allinish to me but I can't figure out how to win otherwise.
Fending off allins is obviously about scouting and micro, so defending that comes from experience, so I'm not really asking for help here, just vs. protoss who play standard, safe, and economical.
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EPT
