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On October 09 2011 11:10 Effay wrote:
So I'm completely lost in the ZvP matchup. I have no idea how to play it properly. Against protoss that try to play economically (forge FE basically) I try to get a quick 3 bases and scout and react accordingly, usually trying to do some sort of roach pressure to deny the third as long as possible.
That's a sound game plan. What's not working when you do that specifically?
On maps where a fast third isn't possible I usually do 2 base infestor with an infestor/ling attack by the 10ish minute mark, which seems sort of allinish to me but I can't figure out how to win otherwise.
Attacking a 2 base protoss straight on is often not a good idea. I think it would be better if you took a faster third while denying protoss one as long as possible and wait you have a better economy until you engage him straight on. Infestors are better on the defense than on the offense, but T3 units with supporting infestors are great at everything.
Fending off allins is obviously about scouting and micro, so defending that comes from experience, so I'm not really asking for help here, just vs. protoss who play standard, safe, and economical.
2 base infestor isn't that great against economical fast 3rd-taking protosses imho. I personally like to take fast 3rds on every map. On shattered temple I usually take the natural expo across the gold expansion, on tal'darim I place my 3rd either at the 4th or just below the breakable rocks at your 3rd and take it down once my first batch of units pop (and then I place my 4th at the proper position). On Xel'naga, take the natural 3rd and take down the rocks as soon as your units pop. Backwater gulch is an abomination and should never be played ever.
If you place your 3rd far away, it's often a good investment to build a spore crawler to fend of air harass.
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Diamond Zerg, and I am having trouble with ZvP when they go for a +2 attack push with warp prisms so they are harassing my main, and natural while i am kept busy dealing with just one attack. What can I do about the warp prisms, i see them coming, but my queen isnt strong enough to kill it itself? Should i go for Muta Bling ling? because I can't apply any pressure if they are warping 4-8 zealots in between my bases =/
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I'm high masters Zerg and I have no idea how to play ZvP at the moment... I don't really have an idea on how to punish a fast third or stop 4th from going down. And all the different pushes Toss is starting to be like Terran when they just pick and choose whatever unit and all in. Will someone please post several replays/VoDs of ZvP metagame so I can start learning from scratch again...
Lots of thanks!
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@Spec
http://drop.sc/42528 <-Here is a game of a 2 base aggressive build from my opponent, in which I lost my third and barely held from there. Following that up, I punished my opponent's over stalker reliant composition in such a closed space of that pocket third with baneling bombs, and one strongly timed attack won the game.
http://drop.sc/42527 <-This is a game against a stargate opener. My opponent skipped the void ray and went straight for a huge phoenix count, so I delayed spores at the third, and turns out that costed me a few drones. In retaliation to the stargate, I couldn't go with my beloved baneling bombs so I transitioned into roach/hydra w/ drops to attempt to agress my way to victory before enough colossus could get out.
Both of these replays are a bit wonky in that was dealt more damage than I should have allowed, but then did more damage that the protoss should have allowed. They do show my basic approach to the match-up though, which is basically saturate 3 bases then put on aggression. If my opponent went for stargate, then the overall strength of my opponent's army is weakened so roach hydra will work beautifully in the proper positioning, which I can achieve through drops. If my opponent did not go for a stargate, then some sort of splash damage is necessarily to deny the third. I prefer banelings over infestors because they offer more consistency in that you don't need to wait for energy and they have a more balanced cost, but in later game scenarios infestors are necessary.
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Thanks for the reps Soluhwin, I appreciated it and it should help a bit.
In the Shakuras game, he made the huge mistake of losing like 6 sentries after they just warpped in... I think that was the game decider right there.
In the Shattered Temple game, the protoss overinvested in phoenixes imo, and he failed to catch the overlord drop. His investment in air units delayed his colo production way way too much.
Overall I think Zerg needs some kind of advantage capitalizing on protoss mistakes early on, and THEN finish the game later. I'm iffy with the baneling drops vs protoss, because it's sort of a risk if the attack fails. Neither game showed Colo plays as well... maybe that's the key. However, I've learned some from your reps and I'll see if I can do better. Thanks!
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On October 10 2011 02:37 Spec wrote:
Thanks for the reps Soluhwin, I appreciated it and it should help a bit.
In the Shakuras game, he made the huge mistake of losing like 6 sentries after they just warpped in... I think that was the game decider right there.
In the Shattered Temple game, the protoss overinvested in phoenixes imo, and he failed to catch the overlord drop. His investment in air units delayed his colo production way way too much.
Yeah, I was trying to find some closer games but nothing I had demonstrated something that isn't considered obsolete now.
Overall I think Zerg needs some kind of advantage capitalizing on protoss mistakes early on, and THEN finish the game later. I'm iffy with the baneling drops vs protoss, because it's sort of a risk if the attack fails.
Well, fact is you have to do damage at some point. Be it banelings, mutalisks, or some sort of infestor timing, one player needs to attack the other at one point or another and if that attack fails then, chances are, you're at a disadvantage. That goes for all races. I just feel like the time that the protoss takes the third is the queue for aggression to leave the protoss's hands and fall into the zerg's, and if the zerg doesn't take advantage of it then they will be behind, just as a protoss that doesn't punish a fast third from zerg is behind.
Neither game showed Colo plays as well... maybe that's the key. However, I've learned some from your reps and I'll see if I can do better. Thanks!
The point of my aggressive PvZ midgame is exactly to deny colossus. Again, I wish I had better replays on hand, but generally my attack timings rely on my opponent never being able to have enough time or resources to get out more than 2 colossus.
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How do I scout in ZvT?
Once terran closes the ramp with the wall, im 100% blind. I can see maybe the second gas with an overlord, but nothing else. Poking at the ramp doesnt help either, because good terrans are hiding tech, some are even delaying hellions just so my lings dont see the reactor swap.
If I see the second gas, I think banshee's will be coming. Then he does a marine hellion all-in with medivacs.
I see no expo at 5~6:30 minutes. I think its an all-in. Then he floats his CC to the expo. Sometimes they even float 2 CCs (double expo)
And since zerg cant counter banshees with the same build you counter hellions, How do I scout and/or react?
I'm low-masters
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On October 10 2011 06:33 DW-Unrec wrote:
How do I scout in ZvT?
Once terran closes the ramp with the wall, im 100% blind. I can see maybe the second gas with an overlord, but nothing else. Poking at the ramp doesnt help either, because good terrans are hiding tech, some are even delaying hellions just so my lings dont see the reactor swap.
If I see the second gas, I think banshee's will be coming. Then he does a marine hellion all-in with medivacs.
I see no expo at 5~6:30 minutes. I think its an all-in. Then he floats his CC to the expo. Sometimes they even float 2 CCs (double expo)
And since zerg cant counter banshees with the same build you counter hellions, How do I scout and/or react?
I'm low-masters
I 10 drone scout and I find it very effective. You should make it into his main before he ever gets that 2nd depo down (at least I do except on rare occasions on taldarim).
After that drone scout it is very hard to know what the terran is doing. LIke your problems say is he going banshee? Is he expanding? is he doing some crazy all in? It is very hard to scout these when just going lings.
This is why I do roaches early game. Literally thats it no upgrades for them, no speed upgrade, just an early game unit for defense against possible surprise all ins (4 rax, hellion/marine all in, marine/tank all in, etc). I make 4 to be aggressive with and poke up his ramp and most of the time (at least for me) I see what he's doing because he is forced to reveal it.
If he is going heavy hellions he will have very few marines and unless he wants to die he has to reveal his many hellions to hold off the 4 roaches, if he is going marauder/hellion he will showcase one of those which you will see, if he is doing siege expand you will see the tank shoot at your roaches which means there is no way he is going banshee with cloak.
I do make an extra 2 and leave them behind if he does typical hellion harass so that he doesn't just run around the 4 roaches and try to kill my economy at my natural.
I also sacrifice an overlord at the same time. This is really imo the only way that I can think of right now that you have the most likely chance of seeing what he is doing (cloaked banshee, etc). I find it very effective and this is what I do alot of my zvt's. Other then this way i'm not sure there is really a better way to really see what he is doing.
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What is the build order of the roach ling attack off 2 base that lucky used to crush MMA? i know you cut drones at 32 but thats it
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Whats the best opening on backwater gulch zvp?
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On October 10 2011 15:36 Kangster wrote:
What is the build order of the roach ling attack off 2 base that lucky used to crush MMA? i know you cut drones at 32 but thats it
Idra makes a warren at 20/28 if he's all-inning
DRG makes a warren at 28/28 if he's pressuring terran w/o all-in
Where did you see that Lucky vs MMA? Youtube or GSL? I can take a look for you.
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Guys.. when engaging with banelings do you all just roll in to the army, or do you all blow them up with the X button?
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On October 10 2011 21:07 dersoy wrote:
Guys.. when engaging with banelings do you all just roll in to the army, or do you all blow them up with the X button?
I just send them on move command and let them go in opponents army. They blow up when killed anyway  and I feel that this way they do more damage.
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On October 10 2011 21:07 dersoy wrote:
Guys.. when engaging with banelings do you all just roll in to the army, or do you all blow them up with the X button?
It's important to control them, because you want to blow up the marines and don't want to waste them on tanks or thors! Move command into the marines is the way to go imho!
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On October 10 2011 20:55 DW-Unrec wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 15:36 Kangster wrote:
What is the build order of the roach ling attack off 2 base that lucky used to crush MMA? i know you cut drones at 32 but thats it Idra makes a warren at 20/28 if he's all-inning DRG makes a warren at 28/28 if he's pressuring terran w/o all-in Where did you see that Lucky vs MMA? Youtube or GSL? I can take a look for you.
It was the semifinals for the IPL idk where to get replays/VODs if there are any
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I'm having some trouble with ZvZ when my opponent goes fast muta/ling/spine mass expand.
Currently my solution is to be very active while scouting and throw down a hydra den + infestation pit when I suspect spire/mutas are on the way.
Once the hydras and 2 - 3 infestors are out, I play defensive to secure my 3rd. Once I have 3 bases (if I didn't take too long to get my 3rd) I can usually play standard with slightly more hydras than I normally would + overseer for blings.
But I feel like this approach is a bandaid of a solution, any tips? please!
Thank you!
Fairchild
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On October 11 2011 03:08 Fairchild wrote:
I'm having some trouble with ZvZ when my opponent goes fast muta/ling/spine mass expand.
Currently my solution is to be very active while scouting and throw down a hydra den + infestation pit when I suspect spire/mutas are on the way.
Once the hydras and 2 - 3 infestors are out, I play defensive to secure my 3rd. Once I have 3 bases (if I didn't take too long to get my 3rd) I can usually play standard with slightly more hydras than I normally would + overseer for blings.
But I feel like this approach is a bandaid of a solution, any tips? please!
Thank you!
Fairchild
I'm having the same problem. I can't do a timing push with upgraded roaches and better econ because he has 5 spines, when I know he's going mutas
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^ Yeah, if the map is small enough and the openings look good I'll go for a push to try and catch him as the mutas are just arriving, but still.. I don't like to rely on a push like that because that just feels like im acknowledging his game style is better so I better kill now.
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Hey guys, im a diamond zerg and ive been having troubles on shattered temple zvp when the toss goes ffe. I dont feel comfortable taking an early third around 30 supply because it is so far away from my main base so what is the safest thing to do to keep your economy on par with the toss?
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Just wondering, for FFE ZvP's
I've read somewhere that one can determine if there's DT/stargate builds based on how fast they take their gasses from the FFE (and how many?), so can someone tell me?
Thanks.
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EPT
