EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 105
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
|
Tishe
Singapore17 Posts
| ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On October 17 2011 12:42 FYRE wrote: I just saw IdrA doing this in a few of his games at MLG. Have definitely seen July use it as well, and am wondering what the point of it is? Can anyone clarify which way is economically superior? Idra most of the time does 9 overlord from watching his stream. Its possible in the MLG games you saw him do this he accidently pressed D instead of O (I have done this before) and there is no point in canceling the egg as thats a lost larva but he does 9 overlord most of the time as it is better. | ||
|
Herrk
Sweden271 Posts
-Where should one place spores to protect mineral lines from banshee harass? Void ray harass? Inside or outside mineral line? I feel that i need at least three spores for each hatch to completely shut down the harass, otherwise there always seems to be a spot that is unprotected. -Building placements, where is a good place to put them? One can use them to block hellions taking shortcuts into the mineral line, on the same time one wants to spread them out to prevent marine drop harassment later on. | ||
|
teide
Spain178 Posts
What is the best composition against these? - roach + hydra: just my hydras die against storm. -broodlord: he just blink and focus them first and kill my roachs. - ling+ roach+ infestor: storm and blink micro and i'm dead. Thanks. | ||
|
Tal0n
United States175 Posts
On October 17 2011 17:19 Herrk wrote: Anyone who wants to give me some general advice on buildings and spore/spine placements, and also some answers on the following? -Where should one place spores to protect mineral lines from banshee harass? Void ray harass? Inside or outside mineral line? I feel that i need at least three spores for each hatch to completely shut down the harass, otherwise there always seems to be a spot that is unprotected. -Building placements, where is a good place to put them? One can use them to block hellions taking shortcuts into the mineral line, on the same time one wants to spread them out to prevent marine drop harassment later on. you wanna have just one spore per base initially. make a 3rd (or 4th if you went quick 3rd base) queen instead of 2 extra spores because they have more long-term use. place the spores near your minerals, towards the side the voidray/banshee is most likely to come from (usually between a vespene geyser and mineral patch.) NOTE: don't worry if your spore is in the way of your drones mining minerals. a lot of times that won't even delay mining. hope this helps | ||
|
thane
United States407 Posts
On October 17 2011 17:19 Herrk wrote: Anyone who wants to give me some general advice on buildings and spore/spine placements, and also some answers on the following? -Where should one place spores to protect mineral lines from banshee harass? Void ray harass? Inside or outside mineral line? I feel that i need at least three spores for each hatch to completely shut down the harass, otherwise there always seems to be a spot that is unprotected. -Building placements, where is a good place to put them? One can use them to block hellions taking shortcuts into the mineral line, on the same time one wants to spread them out to prevent marine drop harassment later on. As Tal0n said get 1 per mineral line and then get a third queen. You will always have unprotected spots unless you want to spend way to much on defense. Buildings should only be used at ramps and such in my opinion until you have Mutas out because the buildings block your forces the same as theirs meaning if he hellion drops your drone line and you used something to block the sides off hes going to funnel you in and your going to loose alot more than had you just left it opened. Outside of that I dont think it really matters where you put them just making sure they are not on edges so blink stalkers or Reapers cant jump up snipe it and jump out as quickly. | ||
|
thane
United States407 Posts
On October 18 2011 04:15 teide wrote: I'm having problems against the composition of mass stalkers with few high templar. What is the best composition against these? - roach + hydra: just my hydras die against storm. -broodlord: he just blink and focus them first and kill my roachs. - ling+ roach+ infestor: storm and blink micro and i'm dead. Thanks. Ling roach baneling works pretty well but you have to be sure you are getting the lings behind him to slow his retreat or ling infestor could probably do well. You have to pick the most wide open engagement place you can though because you want to minimize the effects of the storm on your units. Burrow and tunneling claws are very helpful with this comp. | ||
|
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
My question: 1. How do you defend against early pool with hatch first? I understand you cancel the hatch, place pool asap, cancel gas if you took it, but otherwise I'm a bit confused. Do you make that 18 overlord? If the opponent attacks me, even with drones, I win. Just a-move, GG. But my problem is against people who don't commit to the attack and didn't pull drones (so they are still mining, so denying mining to me is killer). Because of this I now put my pool behind the mineral line instead of sim city'd (i figured sim city the pool is old due to the metagame, 1 base roach openings are no longer good and thats the only reason you'd want to sim city your pool), but I'm still a bit lost. They deny mining, and more and more lings come in. | ||
|
-KarakStarcraft-
United States258 Posts
Are they just reacting to specific builds/player meta game or did 1.4 change things so much that you can get away with early roach/hydra and really delay the infestors? Edit - and I don't just mean as a reaction to spire play (altho perhaps they are meta gaming and expecting a spire), but also in straight up ground v. ground battles. | ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On October 18 2011 17:15 Karak wrote: I was talking to Blade about this earlier, but thought I'd throw it out there as a general question. I've noticed a lot of pro Zergs going roach/hydra off 2 base or even 3 and only getting infestor rather late in the game. Typically you'd see pure roach to 90-110 supply, but now we're seeing roach/hydra as high as 130-140 supply with no infestors sometimes. Are they just reacting to specific builds/player meta game or did 1.4 change things so much that you can get away with early roach/hydra and really delay the infestors? Edit - and I don't just mean as a reaction to spire play (altho perhaps they are meta gaming and expecting a spire), but also in straight up ground v. ground battles. Its more if you spread your units with roach/hydra he can't kill your army with fungels and roach hydra > roach/infestor and ling/infestor by a good amount as lings can't do as much damage. But adding in infestors eventually works really well to after 140 or so supply  | ||
|
EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
Until recently, I have been going 8-9 drone scout, 17H, 16P, 15G Drone till 17, OL Queen, 4 lings, spine in main, queen, 4 lings (this is when the first 14/14 push occurs, (spine 25%?) take off 2 drones from gas once researching speed) (then either evo or baneling nest later) My ling production can always hold off the intial ling poke. For the second push, 1 basers either go strait for a hatch for the macro game, OR they go for a baneling bust. Up until the high Master lvl, My two queens + 1 spine (down to the natural after completed) was more then enough to tank the banelings, and my now slings can clean up the rest. Then it would be GG because I would be way ahead. However, now that I'm playing vs top 8 masters, their baneling micro is so good that I am having trouble tanking the banelings Should I make another spine? queen? get banelings b4 speed? | ||
|
TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
Ex: http://drop.sc/45498 Drone scout gets too late to get gas info, but sees factory started Ling scouts reactored hellions and a tech lab (I assumed a possible 2 factory BFH) Overlord sees nothing but 1 gas, so I throw down an evo chamber for upgrades and spores... but realistically it was too late. 1-2 spores in my main is not enough to defend against the 4-5 banshees that he had, he killed my spire and I only had 3 queens total at this time. Should I over-make spores/queens? | ||
|
Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On October 18 2011 20:57 EndOfLine wrote: Question for the master lvl zvz: (stopping baneling all in when I hatch first Until recently, I have been going 8-9 drone scout, 17H, 16P, 15G Drone till 17, OL Queen, 4 lings, spine in main, queen, 4 lings (this is when the first 14/14 push occurs, (spine 25%?) take off 2 drones from gas once researching speed) (then either evo or baneling nest later) My ling production can always hold off the intial ling poke. For the second push, 1 basers either go strait for a hatch for the macro game, OR they go for a baneling bust. Up until the high Master lvl, My two queens + 1 spine (down to the natural after completed) was more then enough to tank the banelings, and my now slings can clean up the rest. Then it would be GG because I would be way ahead. However, now that I'm playing vs top 8 masters, their baneling micro is so good that I am having trouble tanking the banelings Should I make another spine? queen? get banelings b4 speed? Just having better ling micro or banelings of your own is the solution here. In fact, because the banes will be used strictly defensively, you may want to get your nest before zergling speed to ensure that they'll be out in time even with your delayed gas. This will mean that you can't put on any counter-aggression, but as long as you've confirmed that your opponent did not go 14/14/15 or hatch first then you probably don't need to. Once small critique, why do you go 17/16/15? If i'm not mistaken, not producing a drone between your opening structures means wasted larva, as your hatch will have built up larva but those larva won't be used until you put a hatch down then a pool then a gas. On October 18 2011 17:20 blade55555 wrote: Its more if you spread your units with roach/hydra he can't kill your army with fungels and roach hydra > roach/infestor and ling/infestor by a good amount as lings can't do as much damage. But adding in infestors eventually works really well to after 140 or so supply One thought that I'd like to add: Perhaps the choice to go hydralisks is for more flexible attack timings. What I mean is: When you go infestors, your timing attacks are basically restricted to when they've first popped with 75en, or after they've build up 150en. After that, follow up attacks must wait for more energy if you are over-committing to infestors, giving your opponent breathing room to economize or upgrade. Roach/hydra can hit whenever you damn well please, so maybe people are figuring this kind of advantage out in ZvZ. | ||
|
solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
On October 17 2011 16:37 blade55555 wrote: Idra most of the time does 9 overlord from watching his stream. Its possible in the MLG games you saw him do this he accidently pressed D instead of O (I have done this before) and there is no point in canceling the egg as thats a lost larva but he does 9 overlord most of the time as it is better. No definitely not, some players really do use this, also idra pressing the D key instead of the V ( not O ) seems highly unlikely to me. | ||
|
DW-Unrec
492 Posts
Is this because zergs are good defending this, or that's because the push itself is weak? I'm trying to see what's the difference between the 9 minute mark push, and the 11 minute push. I'm losing a lot of games because I'm not sure if he's pushing now or 2 minutes later. Im huting ZvT replays, none of'em is doing 9 minute mark pushes, which caused me to make this post. | ||
|
zeek0us
United States67 Posts
On October 17 2011 16:37 blade55555 wrote: Idra most of the time does 9 overlord from watching his stream. Its possible in the MLG games you saw him do this he accidently pressed D instead of O (I have done this before) and there is no point in canceling the egg as thats a lost larva but he does 9 overlord most of the time as it is better. One thing I've noticed is that going 10 ovie -> extractor trick to 11/10 seems to provide smoother timings with a 14/14. In particular, 3 larva are available when the pool pops so I can get out 6 quick lings (which I generally like to do). That's just me an I'm not Idra, but aside from accidentally pressing D instead of O, it's possible there's a timing preference behind his choice. I don't remember for sure, but I think the economic difference between the various ovie timings is pretty small. Certainly small enough that the non-economically-optimal choice might be better overall if it gets an extra larva at a particular timing or get the exact amount of minerals for a particular building at a better time . . . | ||
|
Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On October 19 2011 08:12 DW-Unrec wrote: Lately im not seeing a lot of timing pushes on the 9 minute mark, on ZvT. Is this because zergs are good defending this, or that's because the push itself is weak? I think the trend of terrans being less agressive on two bases has come from a realization among most terrans in this matchup. I don't know who first said it, so I'm just going to credit Orb on this one: "As terran against zerg, if you lose your first army then you lose the game." This creates a huge issue with pushes that don't quite set up a third base, it's almost like you're going all-in because if you lose this army and don't kill the zerg then you'll never be able to move out of your base for a good 10-or-so minutes as the zerg builds up the muta ball. Later pushes just create a more stable mid-game in the event that you goof up your micro or your opponent was expecting the exact attack timing and delaying mutalisks. | ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On October 19 2011 08:07 solidbebe wrote: No definitely not, some players really do use this, also idra pressing the D key instead of the V ( not O ) seems highly unlikely to me. He doesn't normally 10 overlord so I imagine on the rare occasion I see him do it he accidentally pressed D. Notice this is when I am watching his stream not in tournament play. In tournament play I am pretty sure he always 9 overlords. | ||
|
kingjames01
Canada1603 Posts
On October 19 2011 10:43 blade55555 wrote: He doesn't normally 10 overlord so I imagine on the rare occasion I see him do it he accidentally pressed D. Notice this is when I am watching his stream not in tournament play. In tournament play I am pretty sure he always 9 overlords. I'll just copy and paste it here since it seems to have been missed and I don't want to retype it: On October 17 2011 13:25 kingjames01 wrote: Hi, I've heard this explained but I still haven't had the time to look into it properly. So hopefully this will allow people a basis on which to make a comparison. 9 OL leads to the best econ. 10 OL allows you an extra drone earlier in case you need to fend off an extremely early attack. Has anyone had the opportunity to test the truth behind these statements yet? | ||
|
thane
United States407 Posts
On October 19 2011 19:12 kingjames01 wrote: I'll just copy and paste it here since it seems to have been missed and I don't want to retype it: Has anyone had the opportunity to test the truth behind these statements yet? Not much to test if you get 6 pooled you wont have the time to get a pool with a 14/14 so that extra drone could save you a few workers. 9 OL is the best econ because you dont wait as long between drones. 9 is slightly better at best but the problem is that most people who do 10 OL extractor trick which is better for early pool but not as good for early econ. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=118754 This link shows some of the math. | ||
| ||
