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On October 19 2011 08:03 Soluhwin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 20:57 EndOfLine wrote:
Question for the master lvl zvz: (stopping baneling all in when I hatch first
Until recently, I have been going 8-9 drone scout, 17H, 16P, 15G Drone till 17, OL
Queen, 4 lings, spine in main, queen, 4 lings (this is when the first 14/14 push occurs, (spine 25%?) take off 2 drones from gas once researching speed) (then either evo or baneling nest later)
My ling production can always hold off the intial ling poke. For the second push, 1 basers either go strait for a hatch for the macro game, OR they go for a baneling bust. Up until the high Master lvl, My two queens + 1 spine (down to the natural after completed) was more then enough to tank the banelings, and my now slings can clean up the rest. Then it would be GG because I would be way ahead.
However, now that I'm playing vs top 8 masters, their baneling micro is so good that I am having trouble tanking the banelings
Should I make another spine? queen? get banelings b4 speed? Just having better ling micro or banelings of your own is the solution here. In fact, because the banes will be used strictly defensively, you may want to get your nest before zergling speed to ensure that they'll be out in time even with your delayed gas. This will mean that you can't put on any counter-aggression, but as long as you've confirmed that your opponent did not go 14/14/15 or hatch first then you probably don't need to. Once small critique, why do you go 17/16/15? If i'm not mistaken, not producing a drone between your opening structures means wasted larva, as your hatch will have built up larva but those larva won't be used until you put a hatch down then a pool then a gas. Show nested quote +On October 18 2011 17:20 blade55555 wrote:On October 18 2011 17:15 Karak wrote:
I was talking to Blade about this earlier, but thought I'd throw it out there as a general question. I've noticed a lot of pro Zergs going roach/hydra off 2 base or even 3 and only getting infestor rather late in the game. Typically you'd see pure roach to 90-110 supply, but now we're seeing roach/hydra as high as 130-140 supply with no infestors sometimes.
Are they just reacting to specific builds/player meta game or did 1.4 change things so much that you can get away with early roach/hydra and really delay the infestors?
Edit - and I don't just mean as a reaction to spire play (altho perhaps they are meta gaming and expecting a spire), but also in straight up ground v. ground battles. Its more if you spread your units with roach/hydra he can't kill your army with fungels and roach hydra > roach/infestor and ling/infestor by a good amount as lings can't do as much damage. But adding in infestors eventually works really well to after 140 or so supply  One thought that I'd like to add: Perhaps the choice to go hydralisks is for more flexible attack timings. What I mean is: When you go infestors, your timing attacks are basically restricted to when they've first popped with 75en, or after they've build up 150en. After that, follow up attacks must wait for more energy if you are over-committing to infestors, giving your opponent breathing room to economize or upgrade. Roach/hydra can hit whenever you damn well please, so maybe people are figuring this kind of advantage out in ZvZ.
Cool, this is exactly the info I needed!
In order to play banelings defensively the quickest, or the most efficiently, You like 15h 16p 15g? or 16,17,16??
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Yo, masters level zerg here. Ive had a little bit of trouble in PvZ.
When protoss goes FFE, I am very familiar with the timings and such. I take a quick third, I get my evo, get up to 2-3 gas, go roaches, ect. and I am set up very well going into the midgame.
However, when the protoss goes 1-3gate, I feel lost in when I should drone, tech, ect. and I have no clue on when to get a third. I prefer to open 14/15 pool and 15/16 hatch and I like to play the midgame with a ling/roach/bling/infestor army (depends on what I see the protoss is doing).
I am familiar with the normal protoss expansion timings after a 1-3 gate (5:30-6:30 depending on how many gates they get), but once I get my 2nd base and they get theirs, I dont have a clue on what to do. Do you guys have any guidance on what I should do (3 base before lair, timing on 3rd base, macro hatch instead of 3rd hatch, when to get lair, ect.)? Or maybe some timings or links to vods/replays ect? I have a MLG pass so I can see all the vods from Orlando, but all the PvZs I have found have been FFE.
Thanks
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Hello,
I also want to ask a question about zvp, at high diamond level, about what to do in midgame.
my opening is pretty standard: I take my third at around 8 minut vs a 1 base opening, and much earlier against a forge fast expand. Here is the problem: when I face an aggressive protoss, I know what to do: multitask to defend, be prepared to all kinds of tricks, DTs, Air, etc.
But when I face a quiet protoss; or even a standard protoss who puts pressure (with sentries early for instance) but comes back home; I feel completely lost in midgame.
my standard would have been infestors lings; then infestors roach lings (depending on the composition of the army of the opponent); but with the nerf, I now feel i have to come back to corruptors (to be honest, i was already bad with NP anyway so not a big deal).
But then I really feel there is nothing I can do, besides wait and die... I try to deny protoss third, but even if manage to slightly delay it once, it doesn't really seem to matter on the whole game.
My ultimate objective would be mass broodlords, with infestors or corruptors, but I rarely come to that point, because the protoss just make a big deathball push, and it's the end... I feel that any mid game push for zerg is really all in, be it infestor lings, roaches, roaches hydras (but how many roaches can you sacrifice to take a nexus down for instance?) ; plus I would like to learn how to play clean and macro, i.e. win in late game, if I don't have any clear opportunity before.
tl;dr:
Could you help me? giving a clear goal in midgame ZvP when you sit on three bases, what is at stake, in terms of risks and rewards... timings roughly.
Thanks!
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Hello, I am high platinium and I just played ZvT on XNC, where I didnt really know what to do against my opponent. He was kept pushing all the time and every push what I deflected I felt like I was only cleaning up the mess what he did and not really moving forward at all.
here is the replay: http://drop.sc/46012
Should I had just tried to tech up to infestor+ broodlord with my extra resources or build just on more hatcheries to spend my all resources fast. I wasnt able to pressure terran at all with my mutas as he just kept pushing wave after wave.
I would really appreciate if someone higher ranked and more exprienced player could take a look and tell me what I did wrong or what I should do better next time.
Thank you.
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On October 20 2011 05:45 Crookie wrote:
Yo, masters level zerg here. Ive had a little bit of trouble in PvZ.
When protoss goes FFE, I am very familiar with the timings and such. I take a quick third, I get my evo, get up to 2-3 gas, go roaches, ect. and I am set up very well going into the midgame.
However, when the protoss goes 1-3gate, I feel lost in when I should drone, tech, ect. and I have no clue on when to get a third. I prefer to open 14/15 pool and 15/16 hatch and I like to play the midgame with a ling/roach/bling/infestor army (depends on what I see the protoss is doing).
I am familiar with the normal protoss expansion timings after a 1-3 gate (5:30-6:30 depending on how many gates they get), but once I get my 2nd base and they get theirs, I dont have a clue on what to do. Do you guys have any guidance on what I should do (3 base before lair, timing on 3rd base, macro hatch instead of 3rd hatch, when to get lair, ect.)? Or maybe some timings or links to vods/replays ect? I have a MLG pass so I can see all the vods from Orlando, but all the PvZs I have found have been FFE.
Thanks
Assuming you have your roach warren and evo put down incase they tried to do a 4 - 5 gate, or just a 1 base all in. The protoss will make some units after their 3 gate expand for defense with the option to be aggressive or sharking. In this case, make enough units to match theirs if they try to all in you during the formation of their nexus. Once you determine it wont be a nex cancel, I suggested three things:
1. Tech to lair and drone hard, (50 drones + 3 queens + what ever scouts, roaches you have) = 56+ supply minimum.
2. get overlord speed and/or seer
3. scout them with seer and/or OL with speed to see what they are doing, Send OL to their thirds to drop creep.
if the protoss is looking like a 2 base all in. Make a macro hatch.
Roaches with burrow and movement to ignore sentry FF, + slings are more then enough to beat nearly every kind of 2 base all in.
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On October 19 2011 07:51 TheRabidDeer wrote:What can zerg do against a hidden 2 port banshee that you are unable to scout? Ex: http://drop.sc/45498Drone scout gets too late to get gas info, but sees factory started Ling scouts reactored hellions and a tech lab (I assumed a possible 2 factory BFH) Overlord sees nothing but 1 gas, so I throw down an evo chamber for upgrades and spores... but realistically it was too late. 1-2 spores in my main is not enough to defend against the 4-5 banshees that he had, he killed my spire and I only had 3 queens total at this time. Should I over-make spores/queens?
So I guess nothing can be done in such a scenario? Just a build order loss?
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Okay, so ZvZ related question here that's more about decision-making.
I was playing a zvz and lost most of my drones (14 v 4). The game went pretty normal from there, but then my opponent ended up turtling on two base with a couple mutas for harass and then mass spines/infestor, and then pushed out with a few broodlords, infestors, and lings. We were equal drones, I was up a base, but was stuck on roach/hydra tech and lost.
So, should I have just tried to counter his base despite the crawlers, since my army simply cant engage my opponents? What is the proper response to an opponent who turtles so heavily with spine/infestor?
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On October 21 2011 13:46 KimJongChill wrote:
Okay, so ZvZ related question here that's more about decision-making.
I was playing a zvz and lost most of my drones (14 v 4). The game went pretty normal from there, but then my opponent ended up turtling on two base with a couple mutas for harass and then mass spines/infestor, and then pushed out with a few broodlords, infestors, and lings. We were equal drones, I was up a base, but was stuck on roach/hydra tech and lost.
So, should I have just tried to counter his base despite the crawlers, since my army simply cant engage my opponents? What is the proper response to an opponent who turtles so heavily with spine/infestor?
Basicly, you lost at the point you lost your drones, your opponent was able to capitalize on the fact that he had more drones and more income at one point of the game and he was able to tech up faster than you while building army, what was somthing what you couldnt afford to do aswell.
If opponent turtles and techs, just try to tech aswell and just get better engagement.
Game was pretty much lost when you were 10 drones down that early
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On October 21 2011 13:46 KimJongChill wrote:
Okay, so ZvZ related question here that's more about decision-making.
What is the proper response to an opponent who turtles so heavily with spine/infestor?
the response is to expand, as his spines should normally not be attacking you. Remember that 2 spines is about the price of a hatch!
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How do you stop a 6 gate push + it's variations. Almost all my games where the protoss FFE, I respond by getting a quick 3rd. I like to go mutas in ZvP but I get rolled when I go against a 6 gate push, especially if there are ups, or blink, or void rays mixed in. So do you pretty much have to go mass roach + hydra against this style? Also with the blink it gets hard because in lower numbers and with good blink micro, they can keep piling on stalker numbers while your roach numbers diminish. What do you even do about this?
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When do you take third, fourth, fifth and sixth gas vs FFE when you don't go hydras? Just pure roach/ling. I take all the gases asap if I go hydras but don't know when to take them if I don't.
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Hey! I saved up a bunch of questions after my replay analisys.
When do I put drones back on gas and make the others geysers? My timing on this is bad because im insecure.
Assuming I want mutas to be ready after (that's the standard, right?) the possible 9 minute push. Also, how do I scout if there will be a 9 minute push? If it wont come, I'm safe to make 10 mutas and expand?
If there is no hellion at my door, can I take a third? If so,
•When do I take it?
•Do I saturate it before he does some push?
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I just played a ZvZ where my opponent used a strategy I've never really seen before. I do a gas first speedling expand, and he does a strange early evo chamber and roach warren build and attacks with like 5 roaches relatively early.
This is the second round of an online tournament at my university, and the first round he did the same thing as this build but delayed it and had more roaches. Before i didn't react properly and died.
Replay here:
http://drop.sc/46819
2:20: I scout pool first then gas, so at this point I'm guessing he's going roaches at the least, though not necessarily the same build as before.
4:50: I scout his roach warren, 1 spine crawler, and evo chamber. I see the evo chamber pulsating for I assume is +1 ranged, and the early warren before expansion. here i assume he's going to be aggressive with roaches and throw down my own roach warren. At this point i know i should have taken at least two guys off of gas but i made a mistake.
5:36: I freak out and make two spine crawlers because I think a huge roach all in is coming. In hindsight I should have probably only made one.
7:21 his roaches poke up, see the spines and he retreats. At this point I think I'm relatively safe and start droning and making my second queen.
8:57: I get supply blocked like a retard
9:05: I get an evo chamber and start +1 ranged when it's done.
9:27: I go lair, i think it might have been late
10:30: I scout his front with lings and see about the same amount of roaches and some spines. I'm confused at this point because on one hand he's making spines, which signals defensive play, and I sort of suspect a muta transition but am no sure. On the other hand he hasn't really scouting me since the initial roach poke, so I'm not really sure what's going on.
11:05: Ugh i'm floating a shit load of minerals and i don't know why. I thought about taking a 3rd but didn't think my army was big enough to defend it
11:45: I have an overseer scout his base to see wtf is going on. I see the infestation pit, the evo chamber pulsing for what i assume is +1 ranged, and spore crawlers (I guess he was afraid of mutas?). I throw down my own infestation pit, take my third, and start roach production.
13:05: He pokes up my ramp again and i see his roaches are +2. He retreats. My overlord scouts his third
14:04: My third completes and I move my roaches out to the middle to defend it.I probably should have spread some creep down to the center and built some spines to help defend since i knew he had a large upgrade advantage
14:22: There's an engagement in the middle. I initially have the better concave, but he pulls back and i chase like a retard.
14:34: I donate a full energy infestor to him because I'm bad and lose the shit out of the ensuing fight, then he proceeds to win the game.
I've never seen this sort of strategy before, and I'm not sure how to counter it. The most obvious mistakes i see that i did were:
1. Building one too many spines
2. Getting lair and evo chamber late
3. Bad engagement in the middle
Looking at the replay I was behind in workers and upgrades for the entire game. I eventually got caught up to him in worker count because I had my natural and 2nd queen up lightyears before him, but our armies had approximately the same value for most of the game. The extra upgrades made a huge difference in the outcome of the final battle though, and I"m not sure how I could have made up for that.
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ZvT, when are ultralisks better than broodlords and vice versa. Also for ZvP.
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In ZvT ultras are better than broodlords when they are going mostly marine medic as broods are too slow to be useful vs drops, or if they already have a lot of vikings.
In ZvP ultras are only really there to crush forcefields for lings and banes, I find them pretty bad most of the time for that matchup.
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low masters here and i am having problems with my z v p especially on maps like shakuras and tal darim altar.
the protoss would open ffe transition into harassment with air units( void rays/nix). then they would just turtle until they have a significant deathball.
i do not know a proper way to punish the protoss when he turtles on those maps.
i usually open 15 gas 14 pool speedlings and i take my 3rd around 530 and get my evo around 630 into roach ling hydra corruptors.
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On October 23 2011 04:02 DW-Unrec wrote:
Hey! I saved up a bunch of questions after my replay analisys.
When do I put drones back on gas and make the others geysers? My timing on this is bad because im insecure.
Assuming I want mutas to be ready after (that's the standard, right?) the possible 9 minute push. Also, how do I scout if there will be a 9 minute push? If it wont come, I'm safe to make 10 mutas and expand?
If there is no hellion at my door, can I take a third? If so,
•When do I take it?
•Do I saturate it before he does some push?
bumpy
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On October 24 2011 13:34 Kluey wrote:
ZvT, when are ultralisks better than broodlords and vice versa. Also for ZvP.
On October 24 2011 16:07 BinxyBrown wrote:
In ZvT ultras are better than broodlords when they are going mostly marine medic as broods are too slow to be useful vs drops, or if they already have a lot of vikings.
In ZvP ultras are only really there to crush forcefields for lings and banes, I find them pretty bad most of the time for that matchup.
No, ultras are significantly worse than broodlords in both matchups (most of the time). If you need to break a big army, going for ultras will most likely lose you the game unless you have a significant supply or upgrade advantage. Just take a look at what happens in the GSL (for example recent dongraegu vs supernova games), so many zergs have lost the game DESPITE having a big econ advantage just because they decided to make ultras. Besides, since when do you pull your main force to deal with drops? Small groups of lings / banes should be used for that (also, ultras get stuck around mineral lines and dont do shit).
Of course you need to take the situation into account, it would be retarded to make a bunch of broodlords if the guy already has massive amounts of AA like vikings. But generally,
broods > ultras unless you're remaxing or you just lost all your broodlords to AA, in which case a quick ultra switch can be a good move. Ultras are actually very strong when coupled with cracklings against undeveloped, lower-food terran and protoss armies.
In summary, against heavily defended fronts or well developed armies go for broodlords. Ultras work in remax situations (given that you did enough damage to his army with your first army) or when you have a significant upgrade and/or supply advantage.
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I'm going to need some good advice on this, im currently and have been a top 8 diamond zerg all season 2, but i think the only thing holding me back is i cant seem to finish off a terran. I can be leagues ahead but terran is just so damn hard to kill with tanks and mmm and planetarys. When they stop my broodlords with vikings or ghosts im completely lost, and they end up creeping back into the game and winning. HELP!!
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EPT
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