EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 99
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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dapierow
Serbia1316 Posts
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ETisME
12842 Posts
On October 03 2011 15:13 passtheamo wrote: Hi all, I'm a Silver League Zerg who's been playing casually for about a year. I primarily play 2v2 with a friend who plays Terran, and we fought our way up from low level Bronze after some horrible placement matches. Here's the deal: After grinding our way into the top 8 of Silver, we've hit a wall. Our wins and losses are evening out, and sometimes we have very bad streaks. It's been so annoying that I've considered going protoss (why? because on the rare occasion the three or so occasions that I selected Protoss by accident in a 2v2 match, I've been able to easily win against much higher ranked players by doing a simple cannon rush or cheesing up to VR) but have managed to keep myself from doing so. I want to master Zerg, and I think the race is very fun. My team mate is pretty capable, and I suspect I'm the bottleneck. Our games usually last 20-35 minutes, and in mid to late game, I feel pretty useless, mostly contributing cheap meat to ground forces and trying to use specialized units like Mutas and Infestors to gain the upper hand (with some success, but when not, it's a disaster). Here are the things I find the most challenging: 1. I'm great on my first expand but slow on my second. Very slow. I've heard that Zerg should have 3 bases by around 14 mins... i'm not there, and when I am, that third base almost always gets stomped very soon after being built. That third base very often gets killed two, three, even four times, and that's taught me to often not bother. I don't know how to properly defend a third...... 2v2 is extremely different to 1v1, the timing etc are just not the same in 2v2 Day[9] and PsyStarcraft probably won't have anything on other format other than 1v1 because it is the most competitive. (I think there was ONE daily on it and that's all) I would say most 2v2s are rush games because taking one opponent out early is pretty much game over. As a zerg, there are some fun tactics you can do, burrow roaches, lings hitting back rocks, infested terran harass, nydus, banelings landmine etc me and my fd went for mass queens and nydus awhile ago for our placement, surprisingly good  (plat in 2v2, I am plat 1v1 and he is diamond 1v1) Destiny, painuser plays quite a bit of 2v2, you can watch their stream to check if they are playing it. | ||
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Peleus
Australia420 Posts
Infestors would be my typical go-to, but fungal deals damage to slowly to take effect before your army is decimated. Any help is appreciated. | ||
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xHerodotusx
United Kingdom114 Posts
On October 03 2011 19:05 Peleus wrote: Can anyone recommend a decent composition to deal with the protoss archon / immortal / sentry / zealot / stalker mid game ball at ~130 food? I tend to get raped by it, and I haven't found a particularly good unit composition in the mid game that can counter it. Infestors would be my typical go-to, but fungal deals damage to slowly to take effect before your army is decimated. Any help is appreciated. High masters zerg. I have found roach/hydra to be pretty effective against this as long as you got your third up relatively early. The problem with roach/hydra is you have to engage in a large area, which Protoss usually takes every step to prevent. On top of that you have one real chance to obliterate his army before he turtles and gets out tech to annihilate your hydras. If you're confident you can deny his third, escape, and then engage in the open, I'd say go for it, but on maps like Tal'Darim this is pretty much impossible as the choke to the third is as wide as that to his natural, and hydras' terrible speed doesn't allow for any cute feign play. I've been trying to go roach/ling/baneling drop against this push, focusing on melee upgrades. The key is making sure everything is fighting the right unit - banelings dropped on zealots and sentries as they attempt to lay down ffs (this is the most important part, as you need the sentries to die before your lings engage, picking off the zealots so your roaches don't have to kite is also nice) roaches engaging in the front to soak archon damage and lings hitting the rear to chew up the stalkers and immortals. I've been relatively successful, but if they hit before you have quite a few overlords filled with banelings things tend to go pretty poorly. The sentries really, really, really need to die. Also, this assumes your opponent is good and keeps his zealots in the front, if they're behind the stalkers hitting with lings in the rear can be pretty ineffectual. This style is also much more adaptable - when you see what he's focusing on you can adjust accordingly, whereas with roach/hydra you will always need to invest heavily into a roach wall behind which your hydras can fire from. Getting drop tech out is also great; it gives you the ability to harass the mineral line with banes or 8 roach drop and maybe take out some tech during a big engagement. | ||
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leBIGcrab
France313 Posts
On October 02 2011 09:44 Strayline wrote: Diamond Zerg. What is "standard game" zvp in 1.4? Do I actually need to go back to roach/corrupter and hope the toss messes up or I get ahead from early game shenanigans? Is 2 base all-in actually the only way to play now? I'd also like to know about this please. | ||
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xHerodotusx
United Kingdom114 Posts
On October 03 2011 19:31 leBIGcrab wrote: I'd also like to know about this please. I'm really loving the 'Sauron' 200/200 roach +1 burrow push at 14~15 minutes against a FFE on maps where you can deny the 3rd. If he tries any kind of quick immortal/blink crap drop a hydra den, skip burrow and try to force an engagement before colossus are out. On maps where your roaches can't get a good engage at the third... Don't know. I've been going back to roach/ling/bane drop, I don't know if it's strong enough to be a 'standard', though. The new Korean 'standard' appears to be the same ling/infestor opening but with 4 or 5 infestors and a switch to mutas immediately afterwards. I've been trying this, but have been dying to this new trend of warp prism shenanigans before my mutas are out. | ||
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leBIGcrab
France313 Posts
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zeOllie
Australia486 Posts
On October 03 2011 12:24 CaptainPlatypus wrote: Next time, try moving out to do a big attack with your +1/+1 roaches as your 3rd comes online - play around with working in burrow/tunneling claws as well if you can, to make the force fields ineffective, but otherwise just contain him and try to establish a fourth. Thankyou for your help <3 | ||
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
ZvT and the Terran decides to 1rax 1 gas FE with a tech lab on his rax. He drops 2 more rax @ 4-5~ min in. What are some good responses to this? He does a 10 min push that crushed me due my poor scouting, but overall I think I could have done better if I knew different ways to react. So should I delay gas a bit and get a fast third and a later lair? Or should attempt a baneling bust after scouting his FE (IF i do scout it, having a reaper running around makes it difficult. What kind of key structures would I need to prevent him from randomly killing me with units (pre-emptive spine crawlers for safety's sake?) ? Also if you ovie gets lucky and scouts the terran on the first try, is it possible to make him hover over into a safe spot by the enemy's natural without being picked off by a marine? | ||
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TTneko
Australia70 Posts
Would love GM feedback<3 | ||
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passtheamo
United States4 Posts
Are there any straight game casts by Day[9] types focusing solely on Zerg? Maybe I need to improve my 1v1 before hoping to do better in 2v2. Is there a dedicated Zerg teacher out there who covers noob-to-plat or better? On October 03 2011 16:33 ETisME wrote: 2v2 is extremely different to 1v1, the timing etc are just not the same in 2v2 Day[9] and PsyStarcraft probably won't have anything on other format other than 1v1 because it is the most competitive. (I think there was ONE daily on it and that's all) I would say most 2v2s are rush games because taking one opponent out early is pretty much game over. As a zerg, there are some fun tactics you can do, burrow roaches, lings hitting back rocks, infested terran harass, nydus, banelings landmine etc me and my fd went for mass queens and nydus awhile ago for our placement, surprisingly good (plat in 2v2, I am plat 1v1 and he is diamond 1v1) Destiny, painuser plays quite a bit of 2v2, you can watch their stream to check if they are playing it. | ||
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Kaien
Belgium178 Posts
On October 03 2011 22:44 passtheamo wrote: Are there any straight game casts by Day[9] types focusing solely on Zerg? Maybe I need to improve my 1v1 before hoping to do better in 2v2. Is there a dedicated Zerg teacher out there who covers noob-to-plat or better? Day9 actually did an entire week of 2v2 dailys, which are verry helpfull if you just get into 2v2 and if you want to become rlly good, i suggest watch Protech 's stream he is the best 2v2 player in the world. hes featured here on tl streams and he practicly only plays 2v2. | ||
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passtheamo
United States4 Posts
Any streams / casts that focus purely on zerg? I just want to immerse myself in the creep. On October 03 2011 22:55 Kaien wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 03 2011 22:44 passtheamo wrote: Are there any straight game casts by Day[9] types focusing solely on Zerg? Maybe I need to improve my 1v1 before hoping to do better in 2v2. Is there a dedicated Zerg teacher out there who covers noob-to-plat or better? Day9 actually did an entire week of 2v2 dailys, which are verry helpfull if you just get into 2v2 and if you want to become rlly good, i suggest watch Protech 's stream he is the best 2v2 player in the world. hes featured here on tl streams and he practicly only plays 2v2. | ||
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AlmightyRaiden
Mexico59 Posts
If you're learning zerg this is better than a normal commentary, helped me a lot. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
I need to know a definitive midgame that allows me to scout and respond propperly. I need a way to reliably deny their third without putting myself at a huge risk for the lategame. And I need to know a unit mix that will ALWAYS work regardless of their build in some way. Roach-ling dies as soon as the Protoss gets a third up reasonably defended. Roach-ling Baneling drops is a huge all in that you have to go 2 base for to be able to deny their third. And it just gets torn to shreds by Stargate builds. Just Mass roaches and a quick third ( which isn't always possible in every position or any map ) dies to the recently renaissance of Immortal-gateway pushes. Muta-Roach can't defend against +1 6gate pushes and forcefields. Muta-Ling play relies on the fact that Protoss shouldn't go stargate, if they do, you're just dead in 6 minutes from then. Hydra-Ling only does well against stargate builds and mass blink stalker builds, and just ends the second a collosus steps on the map. Mass ling is cool, but the transition is hard as hell and it just straight up dies to Mass zealot Archon. Hydra-Roach is good for defence, but can't deny thirds unless the Protoss massively overcommits to some push. Infestor-Roach doesn't kill stuff at a reasonable rate, and dies to Collosus now. Infestor-Ling just straight up dies now, unless the Protoss is retarded and bunches all their sentries up. Spinecrawler walls are good for defence, but can't deny thirds and smart protoss will simply sit on their ass some more and win easily later on. Nydus worms are good for all ins and retreating with hydra's, and defending against warp prism plays. But the investment is really large needs spinecrawlers to work. Hydra drops are all-in as hell and require the toss to go Stargate. Baneling busts only work against greedy protosses that only get one sentry. If they have more than one or the cybernetics core is in their main, you die. I have tried everything, multiple times. Every style I described here. NONE has worked against all Protoss' options. Some have worked for some time when the Protosses only do one particular build, but when they started doing other things I just die because I can't transition as well because of the investment I need to make to not straight up die to option X, even if I scouted it. I am completely lost in this match up by now. Somebody help me get a unit-comp that doesn't straight up die to some protoss pushes, or is easier to transition from. | ||
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raybasto
United States151 Posts
I have a few questions. 1. I usually get a Evo Chamber around 5:30 to defend against DT/Voidrays. Should I still be upgrading Melee and going heavy Ling/Infestors with some Roaches or should I be upgrading Range and going more heavy Roach/Ling with alot less Infestors. 2. When should I be suiciding an Overlord to scout their composition. I found that if I scout a Robo opening, I could easily go Muta/Ling/Infestor which seems alot stronger than Roach/Ling/Infestor now a days. 3. When should I be using Hydra/Roach/Corruptor in ZvP? I noticed Idra used that in the IEM a couple days ago. Would it be better to go Hydra/Roach/Infestor instead? Thanks in advance | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On October 04 2011 00:39 Chaosvuistje wrote: Alright I'm done with ZvP. Because Blizzard intended that I need to be masters to view my losses, I decided to collect replays and note the losses-wins down on a paper. I came to the conclusion that my winrate right now is around 35 % ( judging from 55 replays ). I need to know a definitive midgame that allows me to scout and respond propperly. I need a way to reliably deny their third without putting myself at a huge risk for the lategame. And I need to know a unit mix that will ALWAYS work regardless of their build in some way. Roach-ling dies as soon as the Protoss gets a third up reasonably defended. Roach-ling Baneling drops is a huge all in that you have to go 2 base for to be able to deny their third. And it just gets torn to shreds by Stargate builds. Just Mass roaches and a quick third ( which isn't always possible in every position or any map ) dies to the recently renaissance of Immortal-gateway pushes. Muta-Roach can't defend against +1 6gate pushes and forcefields. Muta-Ling play relies on the fact that Protoss shouldn't go stargate, if they do, you're just dead in 6 minutes from then. Hydra-Ling only does well against stargate builds and mass blink stalker builds, and just ends the second a collosus steps on the map. Mass ling is cool, but the transition is hard as hell and it just straight up dies to Mass zealot Archon. Hydra-Roach is good for defence, but can't deny thirds unless the Protoss massively overcommits to some push. Infestor-Roach doesn't kill stuff at a reasonable rate, and dies to Collosus now. Infestor-Ling just straight up dies now, unless the Protoss is retarded and bunches all their sentries up. Spinecrawler walls are good for defence, but can't deny thirds and smart protoss will simply sit on their ass some more and win easily later on. Nydus worms are good for all ins and retreating with hydra's, and defending against warp prism plays. But the investment is really large needs spinecrawlers to work. Hydra drops are all-in as hell and require the toss to go Stargate. Baneling busts only work against greedy protosses that only get one sentry. If they have more than one or the cybernetics core is in their main, you die. I have tried everything, multiple times. Every style I described here. NONE has worked against all Protoss' options. Some have worked for some time when the Protosses only do one particular build, but when they started doing other things I just die because I can't transition as well because of the investment I need to make to not straight up die to option X, even if I scouted it. I am completely lost in this match up by now. Somebody help me get a unit-comp that doesn't straight up die to some protoss pushes, or is easier to transition from. I'm just answering to a very small part of your post, but why do you think that baneling drops is a 2 base all-in? For exemple vs a FFE you take an early third while upgrading +1 melee and preparing to churn out roach-ling if need be to defend against a 6 gate, you don't sacrifice economy to tech to baneling drops since getting it too early would be useless and even dangerous. Only once you know you won't be hit by that timing or scout the robo do you tech. What is hard though as you said is that stargate play completly shuts down that path (reason as well that you don't rush to baneling drops since stargate hits before you have to commit to a tech path), and also that you have to do damage before the toss hits 200, the remax of protoss on blink stalkers will kill all your stuff and hardcore supply block you. | ||
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AlmightyRaiden
Mexico59 Posts
Thanks | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On October 04 2011 07:55 NeonFox wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 04 2011 00:39 Chaosvuistje wrote: Alright I'm done with ZvP. Because Blizzard intended that I need to be masters to view my losses, I decided to collect replays and note the losses-wins down on a paper. I came to the conclusion that my winrate right now is around 35 % ( judging from 55 replays ). I need to know a definitive midgame that allows me to scout and respond propperly. I need a way to reliably deny their third without putting myself at a huge risk for the lategame. And I need to know a unit mix that will ALWAYS work regardless of their build in some way. Roach-ling dies as soon as the Protoss gets a third up reasonably defended. Roach-ling Baneling drops is a huge all in that you have to go 2 base for to be able to deny their third. And it just gets torn to shreds by Stargate builds. Just Mass roaches and a quick third ( which isn't always possible in every position or any map ) dies to the recently renaissance of Immortal-gateway pushes. Muta-Roach can't defend against +1 6gate pushes and forcefields. Muta-Ling play relies on the fact that Protoss shouldn't go stargate, if they do, you're just dead in 6 minutes from then. Hydra-Ling only does well against stargate builds and mass blink stalker builds, and just ends the second a collosus steps on the map. Mass ling is cool, but the transition is hard as hell and it just straight up dies to Mass zealot Archon. Hydra-Roach is good for defence, but can't deny thirds unless the Protoss massively overcommits to some push. Infestor-Roach doesn't kill stuff at a reasonable rate, and dies to Collosus now. Infestor-Ling just straight up dies now, unless the Protoss is retarded and bunches all their sentries up. Spinecrawler walls are good for defence, but can't deny thirds and smart protoss will simply sit on their ass some more and win easily later on. Nydus worms are good for all ins and retreating with hydra's, and defending against warp prism plays. But the investment is really large needs spinecrawlers to work. Hydra drops are all-in as hell and require the toss to go Stargate. Baneling busts only work against greedy protosses that only get one sentry. If they have more than one or the cybernetics core is in their main, you die. I have tried everything, multiple times. Every style I described here. NONE has worked against all Protoss' options. Some have worked for some time when the Protosses only do one particular build, but when they started doing other things I just die because I can't transition as well because of the investment I need to make to not straight up die to option X, even if I scouted it. I am completely lost in this match up by now. Somebody help me get a unit-comp that doesn't straight up die to some protoss pushes, or is easier to transition from. I'm just answering to a very small part of your post, but why do you think that baneling drops is a 2 base all-in? For exemple vs a FFE you take an early third while upgrading +1 melee and preparing to churn out roach-ling if need be to defend against a 6 gate, you don't sacrifice economy to tech to baneling drops since getting it too early would be useless and even dangerous. Only once you know you won't be hit by that timing or scout the robo do you tech. What is hard though as you said is that stargate play completly shuts down that path (reason as well that you don't rush to baneling drops since stargate hits before you have to commit to a tech path), and also that you have to do damage before the toss hits 200, the remax of protoss on blink stalkers will kill all your stuff and hardcore supply block you. Because as I said, I need to have a timing that hits BEFORE the Protoss' third kicks into overdrive. If I get my third I will not be able to fully saturate it as quick as a Protoss can chrono out probes unless I make nothing but drones. If he does any pressure at all, he will take the probe lead and with a large sentry energy pool and cannons he will take his third without me being able to do a damn thing about it. Another thing is that the entire attack at its core is designed to be a powerful all in that puts the Protoss to sleep. The large baneling cloud to take out the main bulk of the Protoss army in the form of sentries and Stalkers, while the Roaches flood into the production and keep their numbers low so you can wreck their base. If you don't do as much damage, your next attack will be delayed by a ton since you won't have any tech except upgrades and drop tech. Transitioning to spire during the all in does not make sence since you should never go for a third and tech at the same time unless you are certain that you are going to do a lot of damage. And if you're certain of that anyway, getting more roaches up is better anyway because you'll know for sure that he is done for. Not unimportant is if the Protoss DOES go for a stargate later, which he can do in response if I take my third and saturate it, I will have invested in tech that does not work as well. That is why a Roach-ling Baneling drop build is all in, and that isn't the way I want to play anymore. The whole match up has just gone stale with all in after all in happening on both sides of the match up, and there is no dynamic like there is in ZvT. It's either the person all inning winning, or losing and having the opponent sieze control of the game to slowly put an end to the game. It isn't fun and has never been, and I wish I could just play PvP everytime I hit a P on the ladder. But unfortunately that option does not exist so I won't be able to play that on the ladder unless I raceswitch altogether, which I won't do because again PvT and PvZ does not correlate well to how I want to play my game out. | ||
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CaptainPlatypus
United States852 Posts
On October 04 2011 11:02 AlmightyRaiden wrote: Hi guys, i play Protoss and would like to learn Zerg, could you recommend a solid good build for each match up to improve upon? Thanks Hard to give specific advice without knowing more about how you want to play, but my go-to macro framework in each matchup is 3 Hatch 1 Gas ZvP, Ice Fisher ZvT, and 2 Base Muta ZvZ. | ||
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