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On September 16 2011 13:41 Zoomacroom wrote:
Platinum Zerg here. I've made it a goal to stop using roaches as part of my main army composition in all matchups. I don't think they're a bad unit, but they're boring and supply inefficient and I just don't have a fun time playing the game when I use them.
The matchup this shakes up for me the most is ZvZ, where I almost always went 15 hatch into roach/infestor. I've noticed a number of zergs going muta/ling recently, which catches me off guard and beats me a lot of the time as I try to transition into hydras. Admittedly, my infestor control is terribad. I would love to try going muta/ling in ZvZ myself, and I remember NesTea mentioned that he thought mutas were the future of ZvZ.
Is this a viable strat at a high level (or even a low one; I am only in platinum after all)? Does it just lose to someone who has good infestor control and chain-Fungals the mutas? If it is a decent strat, does anyone know a good build order for it?
plat zerg here as well. If you face another Muta and lings/banelings style, it is the ultimate test of multi tasking because of all the counter attack, muta harass, ling run-by, banelings burst damage.
If anything, it is more workable in high level.
Against a roache infestors style, you need to make sure you sent one or two mutas to harass the infestors, make them waste their energy. you must not clump up your muta and need better spread than just magic boxing
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On September 15 2011 12:05 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 00:51 evanthebouncy! wrote:On September 14 2011 22:57 KimJongChill wrote:
So with ZvZ, I'm comfortable with opening speedling expand to contain my opponent, but I'm not sure what to do when my opponent goes one base roach rush and just spams them to my base. Should I stay on one base as well, or try to hold my natural? I can't really counterattack since they will have some roaches idling around in base. It's generally tricky. You cannot over make zerglings and must get your economy up. His tech is ahead and a roach ball of larger size is more powerful, and his 1 base economy is not nessesarily worse than yours since he probably have good saturation on 1 base to your bad saturation over 2 base (since you made zerglings, your drone count will be low). You have to saturate your natural up, and either: 1) stay on zergling and get spines 2) go roach yourself I prefer going roach myself. The whole point of speedling is containment and map control, you are now playing a match not unlike ZvP and ZvT. You want to drone as much as possible until he moves out. He has to initiate the move out as he is 1 base behind. As soon as you contain him (i.e. you have 12 or so zerglings while he has 3,4 roaches blocking the ramp, you need to put down a roach warren right away and pump out drones / roaches. When you feel your main/nat is sufficiently saturated (i.e. you think your 2 base economy is better than his 1 base, start adding roaches off 2 or 3 gas, depend on your econ. When he moves out and if you played the economy right you should have a roach count comparable to his, add in a round of roach and spam speedlings to crush his push. edit: basically at some point speedling > roach, but after a certain point roach > zergling. The precise point where they are equal depends on flanking and his roach positioning greatly. If he push out early, it should not work because you can slam out 20 zerglings off 2 hatch and crush him. If he push out late it should not work because your good economy should have more roaches. This is the kind of play that I generally perform, but I'm talking about a very fast roach rush. I guess it does still boil down to walking the fine line of droning/roaching.
note that if it's a very fast roach rush then we may be able to assume a couple of things:
1. you should be able to scout it with your zerglings
2. his drone count should not be over 18
3. he should not have speed
why not over 18? because 20 supply is when you throw down a roach warren for a 7 roach rush. all of these things being the case, you can comfortably sit on 16 drones (for a 14 gas 14 pool build) whore out some zerglings, crush his initial 7 roaches, and expand behind that. should he get speed he will have less roaches out, which will reflect significantly in the initial push. if his push is pretty strong (7-9 roaches) after you crush it you can feel free to counter attack afterwards.
in some sense the key is to make more zerglings than you think you need. the difference between 6-8 extra zerglings is pretty significant at this stage, since you may end up with a lot more lings at mid-low health instead of no lings at all. you are taking a pretty big economical hit at this stage, but hopefully you can make it up in the counterattack by sniping drones, queen, etc.
at this point he may consider the push to fail and try again (in which case make ling roach off 2 base and crush it again --> his initial push is only strong because the larvae and stored eco allowed him 7 roaches at once. if he no longer drones then his roaches will come out very slowly) or to play a little bit of catch up (since he can no longer be aggressive with his tech without an eco) by dropping an expansion. during this time a delayed lair and macro hatch can be huge, as it will allow you to quickly outdrone him. definitely switch to roaches after you defend the first attack. scout well, drop spines if you think hes going to all in or something. i also like to get +1 carapace asap because the evo allows spores if he goes for some gimicky muta, and your lower roach count will be compensated by both the carapace and defenders advantage.
please note that this is for a very very fast roach rush. typical roach play should not demand this type of reaction. the previous response answers that type of play very well.
hopefully this helps!
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i have been defeated by the same two base thor/blue flame hellion strat a couple times now and am wondering what would be the ideal composition to take that down? both times I got caught with my pants down on mutas...would mass roach work or should i still just go with magic boxed mutas/lings?
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On September 17 2011 00:45 ishboh wrote:
i have been defeated by the same two base thor/blue flame hellion strat a couple times now and am wondering what would be the ideal composition to take that down? both times I got caught with my pants down on mutas...would mass roach work or should i still just go with magic boxed mutas/lings?
Well if his only AA is thors then mass muta should work but if he understands that all you have is mutas then he may just add barracks and pump marines. I myself would use roaches with tunneling claws and try to get under thors.
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On September 17 2011 00:45 ishboh wrote:
i have been defeated by the same two base thor/blue flame hellion strat a couple times now and am wondering what would be the ideal composition to take that down? both times I got caught with my pants down on mutas...would mass roach work or should i still just go with magic boxed mutas/lings?
Make both roaches and muta's. If you magic box the muta's normally the thors focus fire those and hellions aren't that good vs roaches so those should die fast then you can kill the thors with roaches + muta and should work great. Flanking with it would make it even better.
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What are the best videos (youtube or whatever) for a beginner to watch on starting out in the ladder as zerg? Are there any really good replays with a build I can start with that works well?
I'm watching 12 Weeks with the pros and they are great but I am afraid they are outdated at this point
also where can I get some high level replays from the last month or two ?
also any recent Zerg replays somewhere I can check out ?
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On September 17 2011 06:31 ShooTouts wrote:
What are the best videos (youtube or whatever) for a beginner to watch on starting out in the ladder as zerg? Are there any really good replays with a build I can start with that works well?
I'm watching 12 Weeks with the pros and they are great but I am afraid they are outdated at this point
also where can I get some high level replays from the last month or two ?
also any recent Zerg replays somewhere I can check out ?
Watching past broadcasts on twitch.tv from your favorite GM players is the best place imo. Instead of trying to catch them live. It's easier to find what you're looking for since you can fast forward through breaks and any match ups you aren't interested in.
Here's a few GM zerg's that stream and do commentary about their play.
http://www.twitch.tv/eg_idra/videos
http://www.twitch.tv/vvvtitan/videos
http://www.twitch.tv/blade55555/videos
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How do people deal with the 9~11 minute terran timing push with siege tanks, mariens and medivacs? I feel like if you dont catch terran off-guard, you cant defend the push. 9~11 minutes you wont have too many mutas, roaches are useless and banelings/lings are good, but melt quickly and are useless off creep. No mutas, no creep, all you have left to deal with the push is lings.
Can I have a replay where the Z defends this push?
TL;DR:
How do people deal with the 9~11 minute mark terran push with tanks, marines and medivacs?
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On September 17 2011 07:31 DW-Unrec wrote:
How do people deal with the 9~11 minute terran timing push with siege tanks, mariens and medivacs? I feel like if you dont catch terran off-guard, you cant defend the push. 9~11 minutes you wont have too many mutas, roaches are useless and banelings/lings are good, but melt quickly and are useless off creep. No mutas, no creep, all you have left to deal with the push is lings.
Can I have a replay where the Z defends this push?
TL;DR:
How do people deal with the 9~11 minute mark terran push with tanks, marines and medivacs?
http://www.mediafire.com/?6r90mwr4we00m14
Errr thats my replay pack from korean server (where the 9 minute terran push is extremely popular).
As you'll notice is I make a flanking army and hit the push from both sides (of course there are times where I have screwd up, supply blocked, etc).
I do ling/bane from both sides and normally the push comes right before spire finishes so I normally would make more lings and delay muta's till I beat the push if its the super fast one.
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Thanks blade.
You spend so much time on this topic, just a thanks is not enough for how much you helped me and other people.
Do you have to be in korea to play in the KR server? Is it worth traveling to korea just to ladder there? I say that because so many pros are living in korea and I have no idea why.
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What's the current ZvP metagame like? Like what comp of units should I be getting/going for? I haven't played much recently and apparently roach/hydra/corrupter isn't the thing anymore. Right now I'm trying Roach/Infestor, and I'm having success, but I'm in Plat so that doesn't mean much. Is ling/infestor the standard now?
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On September 17 2011 08:00 Kinetick wrote:
What's the current ZvP metagame like? Like what comp of units should I be getting/going for? I haven't played much recently and apparently roach/hydra/corrupter isn't the thing anymore. Right now I'm trying Roach/Infestor, and I'm having success, but I'm in Plat so that doesn't mean much. Is ling/infestor the standard now?
It's stylistic, but really anything with infestors involved is probably good. Roach/infestor and roach/baneling are my favorites at the moment, with the obvious eventual transition to brood lords.
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holy crap thanks ManiacTheZealot ... I love watching IdrA but apparently I didn't
realize you could watch pre-recorded streams this really helps me
I am still looking for in game replays from any top players from the last month or two if anyone can help me out
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What is the best way to respond to Toss Fast Air tech, this may sound sad but I pretty much straight up die everytime unless i get hydras...I am low Masters btw.
Help please.
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On September 17 2011 07:49 DW-Unrec wrote:
Thanks blade.
You spend so much time on this topic, just a thanks is not enough for how much you helped me and other people.
Do you have to be in korea to play in the KR server? Is it worth traveling to korea just to ladder there? I say that because so many pros are living in korea and I have no idea why.
I try my best at helping!  .
But no I play from NA, in my location I am extremely lucky as I get 0 latency playing on korea. Playing on korea for me is like playing on NA in terms of latency it doesn't exist for me. It used to but one day it went away for me and I am never going to question why lol. But even with latency I would still play there mainly  .
The reason people travel to korea is so they don't' have latency + gsl and it might make them focus more. I do feel to be the best you have to play on the korean server though there's no question about it.
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^ oh, cool.
I'm seeing a lot of upgraded lings + roaches + infestors with delayed corruptors instead of the good old roach hydra in ZvP.
Why? I see EGidra doing infestor on 2 bases on map that has bad thirds. Is lings infestor always better than roach/hydra (with ranged upgrades) or its situational?
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On September 17 2011 15:07 DW-Unrec wrote:
^ oh, cool.
I'm seeing a lot of upgraded lings + roaches + infestors with delayed corruptors instead of the good old roach hydra in ZvP.
Why? I see EGidra doing infestor on 2 bases on map that has bad thirds. Is lings infestor always better than roach/hydra (with ranged upgrades) or its situational?
er I really dislike ling/infestor in general but I do think roach/hydra is bad. You want to try and avoid making hydra's if possible. I personally do roach/infestor but i'm not sure how the patch will effect it much, I don't think it will to much so I am probably still going to do roach/infestor but add in bling drops. Not 100% sure yet though how far the patch will affect zvp other then neural being almost uselss .
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On September 15 2011 12:05 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 00:51 evanthebouncy! wrote:On September 14 2011 22:57 KimJongChill wrote:
So with ZvZ, I'm comfortable with opening speedling expand to contain my opponent, but I'm not sure what to do when my opponent goes one base roach rush and just spams them to my base. Should I stay on one base as well, or try to hold my natural? I can't really counterattack since they will have some roaches idling around in base. It's generally tricky. You cannot over make zerglings and must get your economy up. His tech is ahead and a roach ball of larger size is more powerful, and his 1 base economy is not nessesarily worse than yours since he probably have good saturation on 1 base to your bad saturation over 2 base (since you made zerglings, your drone count will be low). You have to saturate your natural up, and either: 1) stay on zergling and get spines 2) go roach yourself I prefer going roach myself. The whole point of speedling is containment and map control, you are now playing a match not unlike ZvP and ZvT. You want to drone as much as possible until he moves out. He has to initiate the move out as he is 1 base behind. As soon as you contain him (i.e. you have 12 or so zerglings while he has 3,4 roaches blocking the ramp, you need to put down a roach warren right away and pump out drones / roaches. When you feel your main/nat is sufficiently saturated (i.e. you think your 2 base economy is better than his 1 base, start adding roaches off 2 or 3 gas, depend on your econ. When he moves out and if you played the economy right you should have a roach count comparable to his, add in a round of roach and spam speedlings to crush his push. edit: basically at some point speedling > roach, but after a certain point roach > zergling. The precise point where they are equal depends on flanking and his roach positioning greatly. If he push out early, it should not work because you can slam out 20 zerglings off 2 hatch and crush him. If he push out late it should not work because your good economy should have more roaches. This is the kind of play that I generally perform, but I'm talking about a very fast roach rush. I guess it does still boil down to walking the fine line of droning/roaching.
It's more like stockpiling some larvae just to be safe. I just lost a ZvT since I used all my larvae on drones and discovered he moved out, and lost the game. But the concept is similar, when you have some fear, that fear should be reflected in the amount of resource/larvae you are stocking. I always try to save some larvae when I have 2 base and my opponent have 1, i.e. before you commit to drones, scout him first and poke a little, and make just a few and save the rest of the larvae. Once you scout him taking his expansion you can again commit to full drone production
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United States1005 Posts
On September 16 2011 13:41 Zoomacroom wrote:
Platinum Zerg here. I've made it a goal to stop using roaches as part of my main army composition in all matchups. I don't think they're a bad unit, but they're boring and supply inefficient and I just don't have a fun time playing the game when I use them.
The matchup this shakes up for me the most is ZvZ, where I almost always went 15 hatch into roach/infestor. I've noticed a number of zergs going muta/ling recently, which catches me off guard and beats me a lot of the time as I try to transition into hydras. Admittedly, my infestor control is terribad. I would love to try going muta/ling in ZvZ myself, and I remember NesTea mentioned that he thought mutas were the future of ZvZ.
Is this a viable strat at a high level (or even a low one; I am only in platinum after all)? Does it just lose to someone who has good infestor control and chain-Fungals the mutas? If it is a decent strat, does anyone know a good build order for it?
As a lowly-diamond Toss player, I would not suggest totally abandoning roaches. Roaches keep me honest. If you don't go roaches, I can make lots of cheap-no-gas zealots without consequences.
tl'dr I see lots of lings, I go Zel-heavy. You surprise me with roaches, I bang my head against the wall.
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Hi,im a Protoss just switched to Zerg and sadly i have no clue what to build vs terran and protoss early and lategame.
Vs T i go ling/bling early game but then i dont rlly know what to get.Should i go roaches/hydras , inferstors or mutalisks.
Vs P i have no idea what to go early game should i just stay at lings or what should i get?same goes for mid and late-game no idea what to get.
Some help would be awesome ?
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EPT
