EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 79
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Brainling
United States660 Posts
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
On August 23 2011 05:35 DarKFoRcE wrote: you need to check whether he chronos core/forge, whether he upgrades from forge and you need to sacrifice 1-2 overlords to see what he is going for. depending on the informations you get you need to build units earlier (at around 7:45 to 8:00 vs 7 gate with +1 for example) or later (vs stargate builds for example, you only need queens + spores there at first). drones back in gas i do at ~40ish supply Dear DarkForce How do you remember ALL these timings (even if its a roughly 7:45-8:00, you have some still have some sort of idea...) I should start writing that stuff down, or is it written down somewhere already? A quick search yielded no results. In the same vein, how much do you rely on those timings? I mean Zerg is so reactive so we don't have exact timings but for example when playing vs protoss, if you were unable to scout an stargate and the 7 gate timing is coming up, do you assume theres no SG involved? (maybe not the best example but you know what i mean...) Just how much do you rely on game time to help you figure out the build of your opponent? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On August 23 2011 06:30 DarKFoRcE wrote: if he waits for 4 banshees you should be pretty close to mutas already, and 5 queens with maybe 1-2 transfuse beat 4 banshees easily, especially when there is also a spore. anything above 4 banshees you should have the spire finished and then he has invested so much into banshees that you'll win easily even if he does quite some damage. But like I said (and didn't you say this yourself) what if you go upgraded ling/bane with macro hatch into third base, and get spire then? I much prefer this, as it rolls timing attacks, you get a lot of essential upgrades (baneling speed, overlord speed, burrow). I feel it deals with drops a bit better, but you can be prone to a bit of drop abuse without AA. | ||
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M1cha84
Germany64 Posts
So I tried to invent a new build and came up with 15inbase hatch/16pool. I throw down 2 spines immediatly when the pool finishes, lately i could hold even a 2rax attack on xelnaga without problems. I feel much more comfortable with an early inbase hatch instead of an expansion, just because its so much easier to hold against early harrass. My question is: Is this a viable build to reach master league with? I mean I can hold Terran and Protoss (ramp block into starport) rushes very well with it, but the thing that bugs me are 4gate attacks, which seem unstopable without an expansion. Does anyone else use a inbase hatch first to give me some tipps when to expand to natural? I usually expand around 30-35 supply which seems OKish. | ||
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
My general responses are: Cut gas or don't get gas if I scout it early. Save larva. Skip one queen for more minerals for lings. As he attacks, pull about half to 2/3rd of my drones to prevent the bunkers going up if he brings multiple scvs. If only 1-2 scvs I pull 5 drones. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
How do you deal with 'normal' protoss end-game maxed armies? Ie Stalker/Sentry/Colossi with HT support? The way I look at it, you need ling/bane/infestor, because if you try to rush hive tech you will get rolled (even as late as it takes for P to max, hive still isn't fast enough). I run into cocky protoss who say "lol you need BL" all the time on bnet, and I think they are morons because 1. they won't come in time and 2. broodlords suck against colossi based compositions. So was wondering what others thoguht about that as well. I feel roach/infestor/bl gets owned by colossi based compositions, the colossi will just rape everything on the ground as BL can't kill them fast enough. I feel Ultras are much better. But since you can't get hive, it doesn't really matter anyways right? I mean I feel ling/bane/infestor is the only unit composition that can possiblt fight stalker/colossi/HT. Maybe roach/banelingrain/ling. And then, my questions I also had: 1. How do you deal with mech - do you get spire and mass mutas or do you get infestors? I feel massing mutas are much better. 2. How do you deal with double starport if you prefer go to open ling/bane with upgrades and later spire (same time as third)? | ||
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
On August 24 2011 03:00 Belial88 wrote: You know I had a question, sort of just wondering how others feel: How do you deal with 'normal' protoss end-game maxed armies? Ie Stalker/Sentry/Colossi with HT support? The way I look at it, you need ling/bane/infestor, because if you try to rush hive tech you will get rolled (even as late as it takes for P to max, hive still isn't fast enough). I run into cocky protoss who say "lol you need BL" all the time on bnet, and I think they are morons because 1. they won't come in time and 2. broodlords suck against colossi based compositions. So was wondering what others thoguht about that as well. I feel roach/infestor/bl gets owned by colossi based compositions, the colossi will just rape everything on the ground as BL can't kill them fast enough. I feel Ultras are much better. But since you can't get hive, it doesn't really matter anyways right? I mean I feel ling/bane/infestor is the only unit composition that can possiblt fight stalker/colossi/HT. Maybe roach/banelingrain/ling. And then, my questions I also had: 1. How do you deal with mech - do you get spire and mass mutas or do you get infestors? I feel massing mutas are much better. 2. How do you deal with double starport if you prefer go to open ling/bane with upgrades and later spire (same time as third)? I agree that you can't get broodlords in time. I seem to be fine with infestor/roach with baneling drops personally. I add in ultras once I get hive tech and then broodlords as I transition out of ultras. Against mech I like to get mass queens and roaches followed up by infestors. I will go mutas if I think I have time to get a sufficient ammount. It's difficult though because often terran will hit you with a timing right as your first batch of mutas pop and you won't have enough army :/ Against double starport I just get extra queens and spores. But throw down my spire on 2 base since terran is still on one base if they go for a fast double starport. No need to take a fast third. | ||
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VAGZ
574 Posts
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Slapsticks
Canada21 Posts
I have heard of alternate methods to this, but they never seem to work, because it seems like you need to use backspace in order to do them quickly, which means letting go of the mouse, or you have to click frantically on the minimap. What is the solution? | ||
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Herrk
Sweden271 Posts
On August 24 2011 11:45 Slapsticks wrote: At the moment, my macro setup is as follows: I bind each hatch to a seperate hotkey, and when I want to build from them, I double tap their key, click on the queen, press v and inject, then I move onto the next hatch and do the same. I have heard of alternate methods to this, but they never seem to work, because it seems like you need to use backspace in order to do them quickly, which means letting go of the mouse, or you have to click frantically on the minimap. What is the solution? It is actually quite easy, you just change the "town camera" hotkey from backspace to something more comfortable for your left hand, like the key to the left of 1 (i think it could be ~ on your keyboard). When it is time to inject you select all your queens, press v, shift, ~ inject ~ inject ~ inject... Personally i prefer having all my queens hotkeyed separately and injecting that way. This "backspace" method might be a little faster, but you have to watch out not telling your queens to inject on a hatchery that doesn't have a queen nearby, as that will make one of your queen wander off across the map towards that hatchery leading to a domino effect, as now another hatch is without a queen. | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
On August 23 2011 12:24 Brainling wrote: Thanks for the advice guys. I am going to start training myself to do the backspace method, but I need to remap "go home" to another key. Backspace is a real pain for me to hit. Mine is mapped to shift+w. That way I can just select all my queens (set to 0, also `), hit v, hold shift and spam w+click. | ||
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Fujitsi
Belgium65 Posts
On August 24 2011 11:38 VAGZ wrote: Does anyone have a good all in build against protoss in close position meta/shattered temple? I've been getting alot of beating against that. Feels impossible to win a macro game in close position since you cant take a third. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190292 | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Does anyone have a good all in build against protoss in close position meta/shattered temple? I've been getting alot of beating against that. Feels impossible to win a macro game in close position since you cant take a third. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190292 wzp's build is great, because unlike other all-ins, where the pool is before 10, his pool is 13, meaning if you send a drone at 9 supply (not your 9th drone, i mean 9 supply) to scout close spawn, you can decide whether or not you need to do this rush. Any decent P will hold it off easily, but close spawn is unbelievably broken so it's better than nothing. However you can just veto Shattered temple, since it's the only map with close spawn now. I personally veto Abyssal Caverns (close spawn is kind of annoying due to shared third, especially against PFs), ST (close spawn, broken map, stupid cliff abuse against main, impossible to deny any of opponents bases with ling runbys), and Antiga Shipyards (great map, but close spawn means the counterclockwise player is fucked due to impossibly hard third while other player has easy to hold third, that just isn't really balanced, plus terran can put siege tanks in their main/third and siege the other bases mineral line). Against mech I like to get mass queens and roaches followed up by infestors. I will go mutas if I think I have time to get a sufficient ammount. It's difficult though because often terran will hit you with a timing right as your first batch of mutas pop and you won't have enough army :/ If you don't have sufficient time for mutas how are you able to get infestors o_O And mass queens for what? Against double starport I just get extra queens and spores. But throw down my spire on 2 base since terran is still on one base if they go for a fast double starport. No need to take a fast third. Hm. Interesting. I guess I should put spores like mad everywhere if I see double starport, since he is kind of all-inning anyways. So your saying if Terran hasn't expanded yet, you go spire instead of mass ling/bane? I guess that makes sense, I usually mass ling/bane with upgrades before spires to deal with siege tank timing attacks. | ||
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
On August 24 2011 20:06 Belial88 wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190292 wzp's build is great, because unlike other all-ins, where the pool is before 10, his pool is 13, meaning if you send a drone at 9 supply (not your 9th drone, i mean 9 supply) to scout close spawn, you can decide whether or not you need to do this rush. Any decent P will hold it off easily, but close spawn is unbelievably broken so it's better than nothing. However you can just veto Shattered temple, since it's the only map with close spawn now. I personally veto Abyssal Caverns (close spawn is kind of annoying due to shared third, especially against PFs), ST (close spawn, broken map, stupid cliff abuse against main, impossible to deny any of opponents bases with ling runbys), and Antiga Shipyards (great map, but close spawn means the counterclockwise player is fucked due to impossibly hard third while other player has easy to hold third, that just isn't really balanced, plus terran can put siege tanks in their main/third and siege the other bases mineral line). If you don't have sufficient time for mutas how are you able to get infestors o_O And mass queens for what? Hm. Interesting. I guess I should put spores like mad everywhere if I see double starport, since he is kind of all-inning anyways. So your saying if Terran hasn't expanded yet, you go spire instead of mass ling/bane? I guess that makes sense, I usually mass ling/bane with upgrades before spires to deal with siege tank timing attacks. Mass queen for transfuse. And sometimes they go for a thor/banshee all in and you need the anti-air as well. The reason I go mass queen is that early on you basically have 3 ways to spend your excess minerals. Hatches, Lings, Queens. Against mech I go queens because lings melt to hellions quickly and you can't defend the other hatches...I feel like i typed this already, but it might've been another thread. I find queens much more useful than lings against mech because of transfuse and the extra creep spread. They also cost no larva and since roaches are larva efficient I generally get my econ going pretty quick. I usually transition to infestors once I know i'm safe. I just prefer it by the time midgame rolls around when facing a mech army. Early on, if i feel safe i'll go mutas, but by the time midgame comes around, I feel like terran has a sufficient of thors where mutas become inefficient. Transfuse heals 125 health and roaches have 145. A queen can have up to 4 tranfuses and so can essentially keep 4 roaches alive. I find this to be much more effective against mech than lings that melt against hellions. Also queens have armor, but aren't armored so they can tank the first tank shots well if terran addsi n more siege tanks. In the case where there are more siege tanks I will opt for mutas instead of infestors. I just don't really feel a need to mass ling/bane if terran is going 2 port. Sure I can control the ground, but he has no claim over the air anyway and once you deny him that, he doesn't have many responses. Of course get ling/bane for marines and such, but I don't feel a necessity to mass them. | ||
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
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DW-Unrec
492 Posts
I mean, after holding the early game pressure, when shold I drop the second gas and/or make the evolution chamber? Thats all I dont know in ZvZ: When (not the exact time, but "when you have enough units to hold a push" for example)drop second gas. When make lair When make evo chamber | ||
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Jetsta
3 Posts
In ZvT Zerg: I get 11 pool, 18 hatch, and only drones until one has at 4:20, i then drone until 7:20 and get 4 gas (I scouted with 17 zergling and spotted 2-rax so I also drop two spines and keep droning waiting... nothing comes) 7:25 I sac an overlord and spot armory and starport, obviously a thorship and still no expo so I begin making mass zerglings since I have no serious gas income yet 8:10 the terran attacks with 2 helions 19 marines 1 medivac 1 thor I defend with 24 zerglings 3 queens and 2 spines Result: thor snipes my queens I take out his army, thorship runs home after scouting, I also drop my third base (terran is halfway to 2nd base) I also have 32 zerglings apparently I was making more during the attack 9:56 I drop a infestation pit and get 1-1 upgrades 12:00 terran has 2nd base orbital, and my 3rd is up 44 workers over 28 13:00 terran pushes with 7 mauraders 4 blue flame helions, 3 thors, 3 medivacs, 5 marines 0-0 ugrades I defend with 12 roaches, 21 zerglings, 3 queens, 1 infestor 1-1-1 upgrades Result: I lose my expo, 3rd, and then gg cause thors ran home and came back with more My question is... how do I properly deal with thorship? It snipes my queen, scouts and runs home and keeps coming back with more thors. I notice that once a terran has 3 thors with scvs I get rocked. Mutas aren't very cost effective and are gas heavy. This game I could have tried mutas but timing would be close and my resources were all spent. Is it that my 3rd is too slow? Or do I need more spines? ZvZ I 14 hatch, 13 pool, the other zerg does 14 gas 14 pool 20 hatch I realize its cross position and don't know what he has so I hit 17 drones and make only zerglings w/ speed upgrading, expecting to run a surprise attack or defend an early push The other zerg gets faster speedlings and I hold him at bay since I had a good number of zerglings while losing only 2 drones but having a hatch and queen above him. 6:00 I realize he build a baneling nest and has 5 banelings 14 zerglings we have equal drones and I defend with 20 zerglings... seeing the banelings I split all my zerglings and surround using queen as a center to reduce banelings damage... but the 5 banelings take out 8 zerglings and I lose my queen. Result: 21 drones for me, 26 for him, all else even afterwards since we both have roach warren. I figure he's scared of a roach push since I built 6 roaches at end of his attack so I instead go all drones and drop a 3rd while scouting his 2 building spines. 9:00 he drops 4 spines total and rushes overlord speed and he somehow has 10 drones over me still... 12:00 I have 55 drones over 47, he has infestor tech i got hydra tech fearing mutas, 3base to 2base 13:30 he pushes with 22 roaches and 4 infestors against 22 roaches and 12 hydras... I split so his fungals don't do much damage and hold the attack but I lose more resources in units, but manage to snipe the infestors. From here we go into a long game where I begin winning by better infestor micro and spread and harass, but he comes out with brood lords and I forget I have a spire so I build another and while its building I lose the game. My question mainly concerns the intro game... is it viable for me to fast expand? The 14 gas 14 pool seemed to completely wreck me while his 20 hatch could make drones behind it... I did hold and I micro'd my zlings to not lose the game right there... but I still fell 10 drones behind. Should I have got spines instead? OR faster roach tech. I'm tempted to copy his build cause the infestor timing and early push timing is strong and I think I can do it better than him. ZvP Well.. this wasn't a good game. I just outplayed him with 5 base to 2 base (Protoss tried fast expand into 6-gate which lost to 3 spines and roach/zling/queen, and then failed to spot my sneaky 3rd leading to a sneaky 5th with a visible 4th that he thought was my 3rd) and went muta roach to victory... so this doesn't count. But I still have questions about this match up. Are mutas a viable strategy against protoss? I used them this game because big map and harass was strong but I couldn't help but notice his stalker spam did pretty well against it and that with sentry micro/immortals/stalkers did decently against my roach/zling. He tried getting a colossi to push, and it was late because of stalker sentry build, but had I not made spines leading him to bad position or harassed so effectively I feel like he had a great shot at winning early pushes with that... what's a good comp against it? The two-base 6-gate is strong against zerg... and is getting a 3rd viable? I only pulled it off because it was sneaky and he didn't know so he charged into spines and went home. | ||
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
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Jetsta
3 Posts
On August 25 2011 05:16 deathtrance wrote: Exactly how can you apply pressure on protoss? I somehow are always unable to harass them because they have cannons everywhere and like 5 bases all cannoned up and I can't do anything. Well I don't want to give totally noob advice... but I can try and as credentials I'm just a lowly master league player. From the sound of things your concern shouldn't be applying pressure yet. You probably should watch some pros play and copy their build order and timing and get used to macro + timing pushes and whether they fail or succeed just get used to the idea and the feel (note what units they have, how many bases, workers, and their techs while shaving seconds off your build timing). If the protoss somehow has 5 bases all cannoned up, then apply pressure is the least of your problems. There's probably something wrong in your build order, basic mechanics, tech tree, and timing pushes which will take at least a week or two to work on. So find a build and stick to it. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 25 2011 05:16 deathtrance wrote: Exactly how can you apply pressure on protoss? I somehow are always unable to harass them because they have cannons everywhere and like 5 bases all cannoned up and I can't do anything. Simply use mobility to your advantage and attack where the army isn't. If your opponent invests that much into cannons then you should just have a stronger economy because of how much minerals were burnt making those. Also, cracklings kill cannons pretty fast, and are quite possibly the best harass unit in the late game because you don't even need to drop them given how fast they are. On August 25 2011 06:18 DW-Unrec wrote: When should I tech to tier 2 in ZvZ? I mean, after holding the early game pressure, when shold I drop the second gas and/or make the evolution chamber? Thats all I dont know in ZvZ: When (not the exact time, but "when you have enough units to hold a push" for example)drop second gas. When make lair When make evo chamber Well you seem to have answered your own question, when you are safe then tech up. I know that this is a rather ambiguous answer, but there really isn't a more specific way to answer it given how many different early game possibilities there are for ZvZ. Just try flipping the scenario around, if you scouted a lair from your opponent then, in most cases, you could just hit a strong roach push with ling rally and win. If you feel vulnerable to one of these then don't tech, and if your opponent does tech then go kill them. On August 25 2011 07:04 Jetsta wrote: + Show Spoiler + Sorry if I make a mistake. I am new to these forums. I have a question concerning all three match ups and I have replays of what happened to me because I truly want to improve but I don't know what I don't know. I'll try to explain the situation as best as possible but replay I feel always explains more and if anyone is willing to help me I can send the replays. In ZvT Zerg: I get 11 pool, 18 hatch, and only drones until one has at 4:20, i then drone until 7:20 and get 4 gas (I scouted with 17 zergling and spotted 2-rax so I also drop two spines and keep droning waiting... nothing comes) 7:25 I sac an overlord and spot armory and starport, obviously a thorship and still no expo so I begin making mass zerglings since I have no serious gas income yet 8:10 the terran attacks with 2 helions 19 marines 1 medivac 1 thor I defend with 24 zerglings 3 queens and 2 spines Result: thor snipes my queens I take out his army, thorship runs home after scouting, I also drop my third base (terran is halfway to 2nd base) I also have 32 zerglings apparently I was making more during the attack 9:56 I drop a infestation pit and get 1-1 upgrades 12:00 terran has 2nd base orbital, and my 3rd is up 44 workers over 28 13:00 terran pushes with 7 mauraders 4 blue flame helions, 3 thors, 3 medivacs, 5 marines 0-0 ugrades I defend with 12 roaches, 21 zerglings, 3 queens, 1 infestor 1-1-1 upgrades Result: I lose my expo, 3rd, and then gg cause thors ran home and came back with more My question is... how do I properly deal with thorship? It snipes my queen, scouts and runs home and keeps coming back with more thors. I notice that once a terran has 3 thors with scvs I get rocked. Mutas aren't very cost effective and are gas heavy. This game I could have tried mutas but timing would be close and my resources were all spent. Is it that my 3rd is too slow? Or do I need more spines? ZvZ I 14 hatch, 13 pool, the other zerg does 14 gas 14 pool 20 hatch I realize its cross position and don't know what he has so I hit 17 drones and make only zerglings w/ speed upgrading, expecting to run a surprise attack or defend an early push The other zerg gets faster speedlings and I hold him at bay since I had a good number of zerglings while losing only 2 drones but having a hatch and queen above him. 6:00 I realize he build a baneling nest and has 5 banelings 14 zerglings we have equal drones and I defend with 20 zerglings... seeing the banelings I split all my zerglings and surround using queen as a center to reduce banelings damage... but the 5 banelings take out 8 zerglings and I lose my queen. Result: 21 drones for me, 26 for him, all else even afterwards since we both have roach warren. I figure he's scared of a roach push since I built 6 roaches at end of his attack so I instead go all drones and drop a 3rd while scouting his 2 building spines. 9:00 he drops 4 spines total and rushes overlord speed and he somehow has 10 drones over me still... 12:00 I have 55 drones over 47, he has infestor tech i got hydra tech fearing mutas, 3base to 2base 13:30 he pushes with 22 roaches and 4 infestors against 22 roaches and 12 hydras... I split so his fungals don't do much damage and hold the attack but I lose more resources in units, but manage to snipe the infestors. From here we go into a long game where I begin winning by better infestor micro and spread and harass, but he comes out with brood lords and I forget I have a spire so I build another and while its building I lose the game. My question mainly concerns the intro game... is it viable for me to fast expand? The 14 gas 14 pool seemed to completely wreck me while his 20 hatch could make drones behind it... I did hold and I micro'd my zlings to not lose the game right there... but I still fell 10 drones behind. Should I have got spines instead? OR faster roach tech. I'm tempted to copy his build cause the infestor timing and early push timing is strong and I think I can do it better than him. ZvP Well.. this wasn't a good game. I just outplayed him with 5 base to 2 base (Protoss tried fast expand into 6-gate which lost to 3 spines and roach/zling/queen, and then failed to spot my sneaky 3rd leading to a sneaky 5th with a visible 4th that he thought was my 3rd) and went muta roach to victory... so this doesn't count. But I still have questions about this match up. Are mutas a viable strategy against protoss? I used them this game because big map and harass was strong but I couldn't help but notice his stalker spam did pretty well against it and that with sentry micro/immortals/stalkers did decently against my roach/zling. He tried getting a colossi to push, and it was late because of stalker sentry build, but had I not made spines leading him to bad position or harassed so effectively I feel like he had a great shot at winning early pushes with that... what's a good comp against it? The two-base 6-gate is strong against zerg... and is getting a 3rd viable? I only pulled it off because it was sneaky and he didn't know so he charged into spines and went home. For the ZvT, I think there is just some gameplan issues here. I wouldn't recommend an overpool in ZvT to anyone, and I especially wouldn't recommend delaying gas that long to anyone. As for the later game transitions, I think going for infestors before spire lost you the game. You need some way to assert map control as zerg, and if you just give the fundamental advantage zerg has over the other 2 races up, then you're just asking to lose and simply look under-powered in the process. Your opponent was not hindered in their gameplan in any way, and just won because you couldn't pressure. In the ZvZ, you really want to hatch first if at all possible, all 11-14 pool builds can be held with proper scouting and proper control, and simply leave you with a larva advantage. Great guide by blade55555 on hatch first in ZvZ. When the broods came out, generally the best thing to do is just attack everywhere the broods are not because they are sooooo slooooooow. If your opponent attacks, counter attack and you will win the base trade every time. If they turtle, go expo crazy. Though, this game was close positions so that messes the dynamic up a little bit, but it still should work as long as you expanded to the other side of the map as your third. | ||
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