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how should i react against a 15hatch block ? (zvz)
Replay - I just gas/pool first and try to play a standard game, feel like I'm behind the whole time even though I know this wasn't the reason I lost, I just felt like I never recovered from it because I wasn't sure I responded correctly.
Replay - same thing happens, I gas/pool again and decide to just do a roach-ling all-in.
Replay - same thing again, I gas/pool and then think about taking my 3rd instead, and then cancel hatch and attempt a 1-base infestor all-in that gets laughed on.
What's the proper response?
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On August 21 2011 12:46 T0fuuu wrote:
What is the best allin to beat a protoss forge fast expand and on what maps do they have the highest chance of working? This can include 2 base lair allins as well as fast roach/baneling busts. I honestly hate playing against FFE on some maps and im looking for a way to punish toss.
6-8 pool is your best bet. Otherwise 2 base hydra nydus worm all in (nydus goes close to his natural, but to where he won't see it but as close as you can so that reinforcments come really fast).
Those are your 2 best bets if you don't want to do it a macro way.
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On August 21 2011 17:58 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 12:46 T0fuuu wrote:
What is the best allin to beat a protoss forge fast expand and on what maps do they have the highest chance of working? This can include 2 base lair allins as well as fast roach/baneling busts. I honestly hate playing against FFE on some maps and im looking for a way to punish toss.
6-8 pool is your best bet. Otherwise 2 base hydra nydus worm all in (nydus goes close to his natural, but to where he won't see it but as close as you can so that reinforcments come really fast). Those are your 2 best bets if you don't want to do it a macro way.
Cheers! Been doing 8 pools on some maps but it outright loses if protoss isnt terrible or doesnt forge expand so its a bit of a gamble. Guess ill go nydus the computer for a while and go back to ladder (:
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On August 21 2011 17:39 michaelhasanalias wrote:how should i react against a 15hatch block ? (zvz)
Replay - I just gas/pool first and try to play a standard game, feel like I'm behind the whole time even though I know this wasn't the reason I lost, I just felt like I never recovered from it because I wasn't sure I responded correctly. Replay - same thing happens, I gas/pool again and decide to just do a roach-ling all-in. Replay - same thing again, I gas/pool and then think about taking my 3rd instead, and then cancel hatch and attempt a 1-base infestor all-in that gets laughed on. What's the proper response?
Just pull down a second drone to attack the blocking drone. With proper control, it should die fairly quickly.
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I need scouting advice, on xel naga cavern vs Terran, how do you scout shenanigan? I mean if their's marines on all corners(cannot send OVie) , picking ramp only show 1 rax tech and 2 supply...
They can do rine scv all in, banshee rush, BFH... I've just lost a game cuz I've prepared for some banshee or drop (guessing) and the push never come.... I was just infinitely behind cuz he have been macroing like a crazy person in his base with orbital and taked his expo and pushed me with tanks.... of course I did not have muta 
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On August 22 2011 03:38 EL33T_COL wrote:I need scouting advice, on xel naga cavern vs Terran, how do you scout shenanigan? I mean if their's marines on all corners(cannot send OVie) , picking ramp only show 1 rax tech and 2 supply... They can do rine scv all in, banshee rush, BFH... I've just lost a game cuz I've prepared for some banshee or drop (guessing) and the push never come.... I was just infinitely behind cuz he have been macroing like a crazy person in his base with orbital and taked his expo and pushed me with tanks.... of course I did not have muta
I recommend doing a small roach push, make 4-5 roaches and go up the ramp. It should force some of his tech to be shown (banshee/tank/hellions). Its really your best bet at scouting that kind of stuff, you should sacrifice an overlord at the same time your roaches are attacking as normally he'll be distracted 
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On August 22 2011 03:38 EL33T_COL wrote:I need scouting advice, on xel naga cavern vs Terran, how do you scout shenanigan? I mean if their's marines on all corners(cannot send OVie) , picking ramp only show 1 rax tech and 2 supply... They can do rine scv all in, banshee rush, BFH... I've just lost a game cuz I've prepared for some banshee or drop (guessing) and the push never come.... I was just infinitely behind cuz he have been macroing like a crazy person in his base with orbital and taked his expo and pushed me with tanks.... of course I did not have muta
Scouting against terran is very assumption heavy, ideally you want to see the timing of their first gas with your scouting drone, keep a scout ling to watch for an expansion, and go from there. Aside from that, you really just have to do things in a way that prepares for everything. Things like: Build a roach warren in a way that constricts hellion movement, even if you have no intention of building roaches if they don't go hellions. Building extra queens, because they are just good against any pressure. Building a preliminary evo chamber so if your opponent does go banshees, you can build spores. Also, as a preference, I always steal the gas from terran. This isn't so much to prevent them from taking it, more to keep the scouting drone alive. Doing this allows you to see the timing of your opponent's first few marines, which can tell you if your opponent built an add-on on their rax, and when they built it.
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Protoss is easy as hell nowadays, as long as it doesn't go into late game. Zerg is..well..not too complicated. But Terran...There are so many things I haven't figured out about them yet, and I'm hoping that someone nice enough here could help me out.
1. So, first of all: When should I get my third? I know it's very, very situational, but I feel like I HAVE to get it at around the 6 minute mark. Problem is, I can't safely take one before the 10 minute mark or so, which I feel i just way too late (please note the emphasis on the word feel, as I don't know it for a fact)
2. So here's an issue I have with scouting. I'm up against a terran on a large map. My scouting drone doesn't get inside his base before the ramp is blocked. Through scouting with overlord and lings poking up ramp, I see a fast second gas, a bunch of marines and a rax. I KNOW it's either 1. Banshee 2. Blueflame
These two builds require entirely different responses. If I assume he goes banshee, I can just skip the roach warren, drop an evo chamber and then a spore crawler in each of my two bases. Then I can just pump drones like crazy until I see his ground army push out.
If he goes blueflame, on the other hand, I have to throw down a roach warren and like two spines and then pro-actively build like 4 roaches. I also have to tech to lair so I can take map control and stop drop plays with mutas in case he starts with those.
I feel like the issue I have here isn't necessarily that I read the situation wrong. I've narrowed the possibilities down to only 2. But however I react, there's a 50% possibility that he will severely punish me for guessing wrong. Unless I prepare for both, which sets me back economically way too much.
3. Another issue I have vs terran is engaging his tank/marine force in mid/late game. They usually set up camp between my expo and my third. They spread out their siege tanks and marines and start poking with like 10 marines and a medivac. If I engage the marines, he will only pull back so that my units are in range of his siege tanks.
If I engage with my whole army..it feels like a coin flip, as I have no idea how to micro my units when his siege tanks and marines are spread out like that (I just A-move basically, which I don't really want to do as it doesn't improve my skills very much).
4. Another engagement issue. This one is super late game when I have brood lords + infestors. What do I do when he gets 8+ vikings? My infestors will never catch them as they outrange fungal. And if my infestors chase the vikings, they'll be greeted by tanks.So my brood lords become almost useless.
For question 3 and 4, I'm not sure how you'd be able to help me, as it all comes down to how well I control my units. But I'd really appreciate it if you could give me some general guidelines to think about.in those situations.
Thanks!
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That is not true about getting the third at the six minute mark. It is very map dependant, as getting a fast third against Terran on Shakuras before the 9 minute mark would be almost impossible to defend without sacrificing a smooth mid-game for Roaches. Blue Flame Helions are extremely common nowadays, as it denies any type of BW-ish thirds, and always forces either Roaches or Spine Crawlers.
Standard timing against Terran is situational, but a good benchmark can be from the nine to twelve minute mark, depending on the scenario you are in and you and your opponent opened up with.
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@Nightbiscuit Now, ZvT is also my worst matchup, but here is the advice I can give:
1) Your third depends on your early-game plan, but basically you take it when you feel safe. If you're going with a roach heavy opener similar to what the IM zergs have popularized, then you'll want to take it when your roaches hatch. If you're going for a more standard 2 base mutalisk opener, then you'll want to take it when your mutalisks are out. There will be this akward period where you are on even bases with the terran for a little bit, but it doesn't mean you're behind as long as you stay ahead in drones one way or another.
2) My advice is prepare for both, in a way. In ZvT I always have a roach warren and an evo chamber quite early on, even if I never plan on fast melee upgrades or even getting roaches all game, but it does mean that I'm prepared for whatever the terran does. You say that you're behind economically if you prepare for both, but keep in mind that any fast second gas build will delay the terran's natural for quite a long time in comparison to a a 0-1 gas build, so you can afford to spend money on something that might not help directly. Extra queens help a loooooot too.
3) You want to practice patience against a 2 base marine tank timing. Even if a tank is in range of a vital structure, it will take a long time for that tank to actually kill something. If they are posed between your 2 expantions then they probably can't cover their re-enforcing path, so as long as you have units denying that then your army will eventually grow to a point where it will crush your opponent's, it just takes patience. As for micro during the battle, most of it actually happens before the actuall fight. You want to set up units to attack at multiple angles, but once you have the set up you basically just a-move the lings and move click banelings towards the marines. A-moving banes is a great way to crash them into tanks, banelings will still do damage when a tank shot kills them so you only need to have your banes on attack when you're out of tank range.
4) I'd need to see a replay to directly help out with this, but it sounds like you're just making the Infestor/brood lord transition at the incorrect time. The basic formula for a ZvT is using Muta/bane to gain a lead, and infestor/brood to turn that lead into a win. It is very difficult to actually gain a lead with infestor/brood, and if you're not already ahead then most of the time you'll just die. If you are ahead enough then having your infestors shelled for sake of killing vikings is a fair trade.
Hope that helped :D
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@Soluhwin
Thanks a lot for the answers! It sounds like I need to re-think my early-game against T. Well, actually I don't really have a plan, except for taking, securing & denying expansions. When I actually think about it, I never realized that this was my ONLY plan for all match-ups. Sure, it's probably the single best overall gameplan, but it should be way more detailed than that.
Like:
1.Take expo as soon as it's safe
2.Build pool as late as safely possible (and as economically efficient as possible)
3.Get ling speed as late as safely possible
4.Get roach warren as late as safely possible
5.Go lair as soon as possible
6. Get mutas as soon as possible
7. Get third as soon as possible
8. Deny expansion, harass.
9. Tech to brood lords
All of this while building as few units and as many drones as safely possible at all times. Also, sneaking in melee attack and flyer attack upgrades when possible.
So let's say this is my game plan. Where would I want to squeeze in the b-nest and the infestation pit? I know I'm going to need some sort of way of dealing with timing attacks before my mutas pop. Zergling alone won't do. Roach/zergling COULD do, but if he goes heavy marine, I need either infestors or banelings.
Problem with banelings is that I'll need speed upgrade for them to be effective against stim marines. The problem with infestors is that they are very expensive on gas. Infestors are the better choice against marines but limits my muta amount. Throwing down the infestor pit as soon as I hit lair at the same time I throw down my spire would be a total waste of money, as I can't get either of them in enough quantity to be effective.
So if I scout him, and suspect he'll be heavy on marines, I will throw down a banelings nest. Otherwise I'll just defend with lings and roaches until my mutas pop.
But here's the question: When do I want to start my infestation pit and get infestors? I usually feel like I want them by the time my mutas come out because that's usually when the push comes. So what I could do is go faster lair, skip baneling nest and get infestors before mutas. BUT - is that even viable?
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Generally, I start the infestation pit at the sign that my mutas can no longer do damage, or in any other case when I won't be making more mutalisks. It is very difficult to balance gas spending between both of the units, so I just opt to produce one or the other at a given period of time.
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On August 22 2011 01:16 Soluhwin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 17:39 michaelhasanalias wrote:how should i react against a 15hatch block ? (zvz)
Replay - I just gas/pool first and try to play a standard game, feel like I'm behind the whole time even though I know this wasn't the reason I lost, I just felt like I never recovered from it because I wasn't sure I responded correctly. Replay - same thing happens, I gas/pool again and decide to just do a roach-ling all-in. Replay - same thing again, I gas/pool and then think about taking my 3rd instead, and then cancel hatch and attempt a 1-base infestor all-in that gets laughed on. What's the proper response? Just pull down a second drone to attack the blocking drone. With proper control, it should die fairly quickly.
so in other words, 16 or 17hatch vs 15hatch is the recommended response? I do assume that the hatch block is coming from a player I've scouted by this time and he is indeed 14 or 15 hatching himself.
How different are timings in this situation? Would it ever behoove me to try and 14hatch to protect against hatch block?
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What do I do against HTs? They just storm the shit out of my army with a giant blink staker ball in front of them and I die so damn fast.
Also, feedbacks on my infestors make wanna cry :'(
lol this thread needs its personal search engine
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On August 21 2011 17:58 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 12:46 T0fuuu wrote:
What is the best allin to beat a protoss forge fast expand and on what maps do they have the highest chance of working? This can include 2 base lair allins as well as fast roach/baneling busts. I honestly hate playing against FFE on some maps and im looking for a way to punish toss.
6-8 pool is your best bet. Otherwise 2 base hydra nydus worm all in (nydus goes close to his natural, but to where he won't see it but as close as you can so that reinforcments come really fast). Those are your 2 best bets if you don't want to do it a macro way.
6-8 are not reactonary to FFE though, so this is already meh. furthermore, i think 7 and 8 pool are inferior to 6 pool, as the protoss can always build pylon + can at his mineralline, and the 6 pool does alot more damage from my experience in practise.
next, it really depends on what the opponent is doing, i think ling baneling semi allin drops are really good vs robo builds or vs gateway builds that invest lots of chrono on probes, whereas the hydra nydus allin is better vs stargate builds.
an easy to learn and execute is the roach ling allin with like 15 drones or so, just build roach warren after hatchery, put drones back in gas and then harvest gas for 5 max. 6 roaches, pull out off gas and reinforce with speedlings. this will break any P that only gets just one cannon and depending on what else they get it can also work vs 2 cans.
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What's the best response to a non-proxy 2 gate when opening with an 11/18 build?
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I don't know how intuitive this is, but is it worth it to build a Nydus Network as a "proxy pylon"? That is, have your rally point to/near the Network and then pop a Worm up near the front lines for quick reinforcements? I've only ever really seen them used to pop up in someone's base as a surprise drop type thing, but on a big map like Tal'Darim or Shakuras, it would seem that you could shuttle reinforcements quicker by using a Worm.
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On August 23 2011 03:11 Requizen wrote:
I don't know how intuitive this is, but is it worth it to build a Nydus Network as a "proxy pylon"? That is, have your rally point to/near the Network and then pop a Worm up near the front lines for quick reinforcements? I've only ever really seen them used to pop up in someone's base as a surprise drop type thing, but on a big map like Tal'Darim or Shakuras, it would seem that you could shuttle reinforcements quicker by using a Worm.
I do this all the time. And I find it incredibly useful because not only can you reinforce pushes extremely quickly, but you also have an escape route if the battle starts to turn unfavorable.
EDIT: BTW, if anyone knows the proper response to a non-proxy 2 gate while opening with an 11overpool into 18 hatch please let me know. I understand that one should know that your opponent is 2 gating before putting down the hatch. But is the proper response to put it down and rely on queen/ling/spine? or go for 1 base roach before expanding? Etc. Be great to know. I ran into this on ladder the other day and completely didn't know how to respond. ^^
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How do you deal with double starport?
I find this almost impossible to scout on 4 player maps where they can wall in or deny the drone (unless you luckily get in).
I generally go for ling/bane into macro hatch, double evo, and pneumatized/burrow, and then throw a spire and third down and have a shitton of mutas.
^ to above poster:
1. If it's not proxied I get roach warren immediately, make a round of roaches, then expand ASAP before stalkers come so I can defend it with spines and larva.
2. If it's proxied I rely on speedling/spine. I guess you're screwed if you don't open 14/14, but I do in zvp.
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On August 23 2011 04:49 Belial88 wrote:
How do you deal with double starport?
I find this almost impossible to scout on 4 player maps where they can wall in or deny the drone (unless you luckily get in).
I generally go for ling/bane into macro hatch, double evo, and pneumatized/burrow, and then throw a spire and third down and have a shitton of mutas.
^ to above poster:
1. If it's not proxied I get roach warren immediately, make a round of roaches, then expand ASAP before stalkers come so I can defend it with spines and larva.
2. If it's proxied I rely on speedling/spine. I guess you're screwed if you don't open 14/14, but I do in zvp.
Thanks for your response. Idk, i'll probably just run 5-10 games against it tonight to work it out.
As for double starport, make lots of queens and spores. You can basically assume if terran took an early gas and hasn't expanded by about the 6-7 min mark that he's going for a thor or banshee all in. I usually will sac an ovie and judge his marine count for this. Other good ways to scout these types of plays is when you run your ling up his ramp. Early on he won't be making marines and will be cutting them to get his gas up faster. So if his barracks aren't producing it's a clear tell he's going for some sort of early tech opening. If you don't see a pair of hellions soon after you know he's going for a quick 2 port. If he does, that doesn't rule out a 2port, but it will delay it.
I usually sac an ovie around the sides if I suspect an all in. Out of personal habit, if terran is onebasing for a while, I just keep producing queens. As they are useful against banshee play and any sort of one base all in due to transfuse.
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EPT
