EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 76
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VAGZ
574 Posts
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-KarakStarcraft-
United States258 Posts
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-KarakStarcraft-
United States258 Posts
On August 20 2011 11:41 blade55555 wrote: This can be very difficult to fight, what you need is infestors. Infestors are a must vs this composition. You should add a little bit of hydra's not much just for the void rays if you don't want corruptors, but otherwise roach/infestor/corruptor does good vs this composition. What is your usual micro approach to this battle? Are you kiting the ball around and fungaling it eternally or are we trying to straight up engage and neural all the colossus while fungaling the stalkers and void rays? | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On August 20 2011 15:23 VAGZ wrote: How do you hold a 2 base 6/7 gate timing push with or without +1 as zerg? I lose every single time against it, I feel really hopeless in ZvP now because all tosses seems to do it and I just can't hold it. Since the recent season my win % against toss is probably below 15%. I usually go ling/infestor style and when the time the 6/7 gate push comes I only have lings and spines to defend with and I always end up getting stomped brutally. What's the trick? it should be possible to defend with just lings right? any helpful tips are welcome, a replay where someone holds a 6/7 gate with mainly lings would be golden though. I'm diamond league btw. I posted this in "simple questions thread" as well then I got reminded of this thread so I'm posting here too. I'll upload a replay later where I get steamrolled in a typical 6/7 gate scenario. I don't think it is possible to defend with just lings. You need burrow roaches, or fast infestors to fight off this push. Also, it depends whether this push comes off of a 3-gate or a ffe, as I believe the timings are a bit different. Against a ffe, you can grab a third around 30 supply, throw down evo, roach warren, and lair around 6:30, get an upgrade (+1 missle/melee depending on what you want to emphasize in the mid-game), and have everything ready by the 9minute mark, which i believe is when toss 6/7 gate is ready. | ||
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VAGZ
574 Posts
On August 20 2011 16:12 Karak wrote: 6/7 gate out of FFE you mean? Pretty much both. On August 20 2011 16:17 KimJongChill wrote: I don't think it is possible to defend with just lings. You need burrow roaches, or fast infestors to fight off this push. Also, it depends whether this push comes off of a 3-gate or a ffe, as I believe the timings are a bit different. Against a ffe, you can grab a third around 30 supply, throw down evo, roach warren, and lair around 6:30, get an upgrade (+1 missle/melee depending on what you want to emphasize in the mid-game), and have everything ready by the 9minute mark, which i believe is when toss 6/7 gate is ready. Okay thanks for the reply. I guess I will have to experiment a little with roaches then. I was positive it was defendable with just speedlings and spines because I've seen pros do it but I believe you need their knowledge of the game to be able to do that. What about fast infestors you mentioned? when should I be getting them and what units should be supporting them? I would rather go infestors over roaches. Also what's the big difference on how to respond to this whether it comes of a 3gate expand or a ffe? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 20 2011 16:12 Karak wrote: What is your usual micro approach to this battle? Are you kiting the ball around and fungaling it eternally or are we trying to straight up engage and neural all the colossus while fungaling the stalkers and void rays? I try to get a concave with roaches and the lings will just be A moved into them. I neural the colossi and mass fungel his army (its normally in one control group and in a ball so easy to fungel most of it with 1 infestor). Just keep fungeling while your roaches are attacking and even if you don't win the fight, his voids should be dead, his colossi gone, most of his ground army gone. You should have about 6 infestors by the time he attacks with this deathball, more if he's waiting for max. Your reinforcements will finish the rest if you didn't kill it (always remember to keep macroing!) How do you hold a 2 base 6/7 gate timing push with or without +1 as zerg? I lose every single time against it, I feel really hopeless in ZvP now because all tosses seems to do it and I just can't hold it. Since the recent season my win % against toss is probably below 15%. I usually go ling/infestor style and when the time the 6/7 gate push comes I only have lings and spines to defend with and I always end up getting stomped brutally. What's the trick? it should be possible to defend with just lings right? any helpful tips are welcome, a replay where someone holds a 6/7 gate with mainly lings would be golden though. I'm diamond league btw. I posted this in "simple questions thread" as well then I got reminded of this thread so I'm posting here too. I'll upload a replay later where I get steamrolled in a typical 6/7 gate scenario. Honestly roach/infestor is so much stronger then ling infestor imo especially vs protoss because all toss has to make vs ling/infestor is high templar with archon/zealot. Feedback + storm will roll your army aside, mix in colossi and yeah. No it is not possible to defend with just lings unless he doesn't micro or cast any FF's. You should have roach/ling to defend it as normally infestors won't come out in time for this push. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 20 2011 15:23 VAGZ wrote: How do you hold a 2 base 6/7 gate timing push with or without +1 as zerg? I lose every single time against it, I feel really hopeless in ZvP now because all tosses seems to do it and I just can't hold it. Since the recent season my win % against toss is probably below 15%. I usually go ling/infestor style and when the time the 6/7 gate push comes I only have lings and spines to defend with and I always end up getting stomped brutally. What's the trick? it should be possible to defend with just lings right? any helpful tips are welcome, a replay where someone holds a 6/7 gate with mainly lings would be golden though. I'm diamond league btw. I posted this in "simple questions thread" as well then I got reminded of this thread so I'm posting here too. I'll upload a replay later where I get steamrolled in a typical 6/7 gate scenario. replay! Here is a game of me stomping a 6gate blink. Now, both my opponent's micro and macro are a bit sub-optimal in this game but this is still a basic structure to use. Roaches at your core and use of lings to surround and make blink micro as ineffective as possible. If you're having trouble with ZvP in general against a forge first then I highly suggest you look at my build this game as well, ZvP is my best matchup and I feel sooooo comfortable with this NesTea style fast 3 base w/ delayed lair. On August 20 2011 16:40 VAGZ wrote: Also what's the big difference on how to respond to this whether it comes of a 3gate expand or a ffe? The major difference bettween the two is: The protoss will have less stuff, but it will hit earlier The zerg will (probably) not have a saturated third base because they saw gate first. As for how you would deal with it, pretty much the same. Builds vs. a gate first should have roach warren as well as gas mining happen quicker so it will most likely be less stuff vs. less stuff. Also keep in mind that your opponent can, most likely, not afford a robotics if they didn't go forge first, so burrow basically just takes a build order win against a gate first 6 gate. | ||
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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
Also secondly I've looked at all the 15 hatch ZvZ threads and it's something I want to start doing. My biggest concern is holding off early agression and I see variation in what people do. For example I see some people saying to go for ling speed and make 6-8 lings then continue to defend with ling bane, others say go for roach warren right when pool finishes. I understand on maps where you can't block your ramp you go lings, but what is the general consensus to holding off early aggression with 15 hatch? | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 21 2011 04:12 Chinesewonder wrote: Also secondly I've looked at all the 15 hatch ZvZ threads and it's something I want to start doing. My biggest concern is holding off early agression and I see variation in what people do. For example I see some people saying to go for ling speed and make 6-8 lings then continue to defend with ling bane, others say go for roach warren right when pool finishes. I understand on maps where you can't block your ramp you go lings, but what is the general consensus to holding off early aggression with 15 hatch? ZvZ openers are all about scouting, chances are the people who say there is one way to follow up a hatch first are the same people who say the matchup is a coinflip. Banelings Allow for aggression as well as counter aggression. If you feel like you can do damage to your opponent then this is the way to go. Generally you want to go banes if you and your opponent are on equal larva, I.E. you both went 15 hatch. This is because equal larva creates no room for droneing, if your opponent does something greedy then you can punish it by just having more lings and, effectively, being able to instantly traverse the map given how fast speedlings are. Even if your opponent goes roaches then this create a scenario where you are safe, because of the amount of lings you made you can always threat a counterattack if your opponent tries to move out with slow... slow roaches. In a base trade lings will always win against roaches. Roaches Allows for security against banelings. The major pitfall with going roaches is that you are forced to build enough roaches to always be safe against ridiculous numbers of speedling off of 2 hatches in the early game, however 2 hatches can also allow your opponent to drone hardcore while you're making something that you won't be able to attack with for a long, long time. I only ever go roaches if I see my opponent has not expanded by 15 supply, because it either means a one base baneling all-in, a one base lair (?), or a delayed expansion. In all of these cases you can afford to sacrifice early economy for sake of being safe because you have larva advantage. To summerize, if your hatch timing is ahead of your opponent's then go roaches, if it is equal or behind then go banelings. edit: one thing I forgot, if you 14/14/15 and you see your opponent one basing, don't be afraid to cancel ling speed for sake of getting roaches out quicker. You won't be able to counter attack for a while, so you don't need speedlings for a while. Also, if you're going the baneling route then you want to switch to drone production the instant you may see roaches out of your opponent. | ||
Glitch890
22 Posts
Roach Hydra Ling Infestor Mutaling Mutaling Baneling Crackling Ultra Thanks for any help. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 21 2011 04:12 Chinesewonder wrote: Just need some help on my ZvZ. I've been going 14/14 every game and I have two questions. I see alot of pro streams and alot of them seemingly blindly dont go banes and opt for speedling. I'm not sure if I'm missing some kind of scouting ques, but it seems dangerous to me if your opponent sneaks in a baneling nest. Take for example Idra who doesn't even drone scout to see if his opponent is mining after he gets ling speed, how does he know his opponent wont go "surprise baneling party". Also secondly I've looked at all the 15 hatch ZvZ threads and it's something I want to start doing. My biggest concern is holding off early agression and I see variation in what people do. For example I see some people saying to go for ling speed and make 6-8 lings then continue to defend with ling bane, others say go for roach warren right when pool finishes. I understand on maps where you can't block your ramp you go lings, but what is the general consensus to holding off early aggression with 15 hatch? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583 That is a guide I wrote on holding early aggression when hatch firsting. I know idra/ret do this a lot as well as that is where I got my build from ^_^. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 21 2011 04:50 Glitch890 wrote: How many gases to these builds take? Roach Hydra Ling Infestor Mutaling Mutaling Baneling Crackling Ultra Thanks for any help. Ummm... I wouldn't call these builds. More like 'mid-game goal' or 'late game composition'. In any case you would want to take pretty much any geyser you can get for any solid zerg strategy. | ||
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
EDIT: well, maybe i should scroll up. nvm | ||
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PenguinWithNuke
250 Posts
Lings get one-shot, and I'd prefer to just outright kill it rather than expand like crazy. | ||
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Excalibursin-X
United States20 Posts
On August 21 2011 08:18 deathtrance wrote: What's a good, safe and economic build in ZvZ? I can only find a safe build or an economic build, but neither one that is both. EDIT: well, maybe i should scroll up. nvm Well if there was one wouldn't everybody use it? There may not be one. Unless you're talking about the exact 50/50 compromise of safety and econ. But you put "Good" in there as a criteria soooo-.... Oh, yeah, I keep losing to Stalkers. The bigger a ball is, the lower the surface-area to volume ratio gets, so a big ball coupled with some Force Fields and Blink foils Zerglings (Which are apparently the counter). Also Stalkers are pretty good vs Roaches. | ||
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minisockey
99 Posts
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 21 2011 10:27 PenguinWithNuke wrote: What should you do if you're playing against a Terran who goes Planetary Fortress first? (I know, it's dumb and with all dumb builds you should go fucking kill it, but I'm kinda stumped. Also, I'm stupid). Lings get one-shot, and I'd prefer to just outright kill it rather than expand like crazy. Expand crazy is your best bet because the terran is sacraficing tech and the ability to be agressive for sake of not dieing, though to throw some theory crafting out there: Roach run-by. Ignore the turtled up natural and just kill everything else, PFs don't have much range. Fast mutalisks, PFs can't hit air and there isn't much risk because of your opponent's delayed ability to be aggressive. If your opponent goes turret crazy as a response then they've probably spent every single mineral they have on static defense, so just go like 2 hatch brood lord or something equally ridiculous. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 21 2011 11:11 Excalibursin-X wrote: Well if there was one wouldn't everybody use it? There may not be one. Unless you're talking about the exact 50/50 compromise of safety and econ. But you put "Good" in there as a criteria soooo-.... Oh, yeah, I keep losing to Stalkers. The bigger a ball is, the lower the surface-area to volume ratio gets, so a big ball coupled with some Force Fields and Blink foils Zerglings (Which are apparently the counter). Also Stalkers are pretty good vs Roaches. Infestors. That's what you'll want to add to your counter-chart for stalker, though playing by counter chart is ,most of the time, bad. Simply asking what counters what and just making that is a bad way to play, just throwing that out there. | ||
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
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VAGZ
574 Posts
Honestly roach/infestor is so much stronger then ling infestor imo especially vs protoss because all toss has to make vs ling/infestor is high templar with archon/zealot. Feedback + storm will roll your army aside, mix in colossi and yeah. No it is not possible to defend with just lings unless he doesn't micro or cast any FF's. You should have roach/ling to defend it as normally infestors won't come out in time for this push. On August 20 2011 23:50 Soluhwin wrote: replay! Here is a game of me stomping a 6gate blink. Now, both my opponent's micro and macro are a bit sub-optimal in this game but this is still a basic structure to use. Roaches at your core and use of lings to surround and make blink micro as ineffective as possible. If you're having trouble with ZvP in general against a forge first then I highly suggest you look at my build this game as well, ZvP is my best matchup and I feel sooooo comfortable with this NesTea style fast 3 base w/ delayed lair. The major difference bettween the two is: The protoss will have less stuff, but it will hit earlier The zerg will (probably) not have a saturated third base because they saw gate first. As for how you would deal with it, pretty much the same. Builds vs. a gate first should have roach warren as well as gas mining happen quicker so it will most likely be less stuff vs. less stuff. Also keep in mind that your opponent can, most likely, not afford a robotics if they didn't go forge first, so burrow basically just takes a build order win against a gate first 6 gate. Ok thanks for helping out guys. I've realized that I need to start using roaches more in ZvP and I tried that today and I've already had much success with it. I was too stubborn with the ling infestor style I guess. | ||
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