EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 75
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
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Makura
United States317 Posts
On August 18 2011 07:37 [F_]aths wrote: Is it beneficial – as a general rule – to get from silver to gold, to use up any larva as soon as possible even when I (somewhat) regularly inject larvae with the queens? What if I don't exactly know what to build and don't really need more drones right now? Um how is your scouting at this point? drones are good yes but if u already have 20-24 drones on minerals alone at each base, u dont need more drones. At that level, yes injects are important but its difficult to keep up so throwing down a macro hatch or 2 will greatly improve your play i think. | ||
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ShadowWolf
United States197 Posts
On August 18 2011 07:37 [F_]aths wrote: Is it beneficial – as a general rule – to get from silver to gold, to use up any larva as soon as possible even when I (somewhat) regularly inject larvae with the queens? What if I don't exactly know what to build and don't really need more drones right now? In my opinion, the best thing to do is build "stuff" regardless of what it is and learn what works and what doesn't through trial-and-error. Because of your skill level, there's no real "guideline" you can follow with any legitimacy and have any clue what's going on. The optimal approach is to improve your scouting and follow a build that allows for a fairly rigid opening. For example, if you look at MorroW's ZvP build you'll see that there's a few specific paths you'd follow dependent on certain things happening or not happening ( hatchery block for example ), but it's generally something you can follow step-by-step all the way to diamond. Having a stable build like this also allows you to follow built-in scouting patterns with built-in responses. Stuff to the effect of "I know that if I scout forge first I can make X drones before I have to scout again." | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 16 2011 04:11 UnholyGregor wrote: V terran, specifically mech, is it worth massing mutas, 20+ like ret or idra's style, or is it better to just go straight into mass infestor with np, and rush broodlords (3base, maybe 4 on some maps)? against mech, you want to get infestors with neural parasite and roache/ling/bane. Against marine/tank the best method is idra style where you get a huge flock of muta's. Honestly going infestor straight out has a lot of weaknesses like against drop play, dealing with drop ships can be a huge pain, and if the terran is good he'll make ghosts and siege tanks do very good vs them as well. Muta's you can snipe drop ships, get to places faster to defend a base from dying due to the huge flock. But you do have to have good muta control, you do not want to lose a lot of muta's or you are in a bad position. I believe infestors are easier to use and more forgiving then going muta's, but I find muta's into later infestors when you go hive is a lot stronger. | ||
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-KarakStarcraft-
United States258 Posts
One aspect I'm struggling with is upgrade timing. I'm never sure when to dip into the gas for upgrades since I'm usually pretty starved off 3 base early making blings and mutas. With the infestor/ling style, upgrades are obviously of primary importance, but here I'm never sure when they are worth it. When do you advise getting bling speed and +1 attack and +1 carapace? Is it ever better to go carapace or melee first or go straight to +2 melee instead? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 18 2011 14:10 Karak wrote: I've basically used infestor/ling (destiny style I guess, altho I have my own adaptation of it) to get to where I am now which is mid-masters or so, but I'd like to start using ling/bling/muta in some maps/positions and overall I just think it is a better style vs. a solid T. One aspect I'm struggling with is upgrade timing. I'm never sure when to dip into the gas for upgrades since I'm usually pretty starved off 3 base early making blings and mutas. With the infestor/ling style, upgrades are obviously of primary importance, but here I'm never sure when they are worth it. When do you advise getting bling speed and +1 attack and +1 carapace? Is it ever better to go carapace or melee first or go straight to +2 melee instead? bling speed should be done as soon as you hit lair, start getting melee/carapace upgrades when you take a third and have the gases going. Those are the timings I use and works great for me. | ||
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-KarakStarcraft-
United States258 Posts
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illKarasu
United States58 Posts
Context: In Day9 speak, tapping refers to quickly hitting your hotkeys for your production facilities in rapid succession in order to see what structures are/aren't producing. In these Day9 videos he directs the viewers eye to the bottom middle of the screen, where a barracks there is a little white box to indicate Marine-making, or a progress bar filling up. TLDR of post to this point: I know where the eyes can scan to see what isn't producing if playing as T. Problem is that I do forget injects possibly because I'm not aware of some associative cue like a progress bar. Questions: Have those of you high level players who BARELY EVER forget larva injects worked it into unconcious hand movement and just remember, OR do you tap hatches/queens and look somewhere as a visual cue for when to inject? And How or What did you personally do to ingrain injects into your blood? Places I can think to use as visual cues: +purple energy bar of queen +a hatchery growing green injected eggs +the purple number beneath a hotkeyed queen +the bottom right side of the screen and see if the queen's spells are able to cast Thanks! | ||
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Ninja_Bread
United States113 Posts
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
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Emporio
United States3069 Posts
However, when I've tried to do it, I find that I'm really bad at all-in'ing. I either go too much eco so my push is late and weak, or I cut too early and I run out of steam. Is there actually a build order for alll ins or are there any pointers for improving on this? | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
What is a good counter when you've successfully defended a 4-gate? I just played a game where I stopped a 4-gate, crushed it, really, and thought I was in a good position. I found out minutes later that the 4-gate became a 6-gate stalker push that then became 6-gate blink stalkers. After stopping the 4-gate I took the advice I'd been given many times: "Don't be greedy with your aggression, take the advantage and capitalize on it by getting a strong economy so you can enter mid game with a bigger advantage." Well, I thought I did that; but apparently not properly. This has me wondering, after you stop a 4-gate should you pressure or is it a wash and there's really no advantage for you as a Zerg? | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 19 2011 04:57 Mjolnir wrote: What is a good counter when you've successfully defended a 4-gate? I just played a game where I stopped a 4-gate, crushed it, really, and thought I was in a good position. I found out minutes later that the 4-gate became a 6-gate stalker push that then became 6-gate blink stalkers. After stopping the 4-gate I took the advice I'd been given many times: "Don't be greedy with your aggression, take the advantage and capitalize on it by getting a strong economy so you can enter mid game with a bigger advantage." Well, I thought I did that; but apparently not properly. This has me wondering, after you stop a 4-gate should you pressure or is it a wash and there's really no advantage for you as a Zerg? Normally when I've defended a 4 gate, my lair is done. In this scenario, I'll just do a roach-burrow counter push and either win, or force turtleing out of my opponent as well as restricting their tech possibilities only to robo tech. At this point I'll just take a third and work up to a roach/baneling mid game, honestly I think it should be impossible to lose at this point and a 2 base timing should work, but better safe than dumb loss. replay This may not be the best example, as it was a blink 4 gate (which I think is just bad, as I was totally unprepared but held anyways). The concept stays the same though, use your tech advantage to force turtleing out of your opponent, turning that tech advantage into a massive economic advantage. On August 18 2011 20:37 Emporio wrote: I've heard that against FFE and 3gate expand, roach/ling all-in is really hard to hold, and I've seen a lot of games where constant pressure just eventually wears out sentry energy and devastates the protoss army. However, when I've tried to do it, I find that I'm really bad at all-in'ing. I either go too much eco so my push is late and weak, or I cut too early and I run out of steam. Is there actually a build order for alll ins or are there any pointers for improving on this? Here is the build that I use, but rarely anymore. I'd never recommend this against a forge first, by the way, as the amount of cannons your opponent can make as well as the wall off just makes it bad. + Show Spoiler [The Build] + 9overlord 14pool 14gas, mine with 2 drones 15hatch 16overlord @100% pool, 2 queens @100 gas, ling speed, put a third on gas 25roach warren, 3 overlords Drone up to 24, should be 30 supply. (24 drones, 2 queens, 4 scouting lings) @100% roach warren, roaaaachessss!!!! should be around 8-10 Depending on what your lings see, you should either drone behind and take a third or just keep rallying speedling and go for the kill. Generally if I don't see a cannon at my opponent's natural I'll go for the all-in, if I do then I'll go with the economic follow-up. | ||
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Pinna
Finland152 Posts
I have a lot of problems against Toss, generally the deathball. So, how do you guys counter that? Dont say anything like "Deny third expo, all-in roach", I DONT want to play like that. I usually go for infestor-ling-bane-roach, which sometimes melts her army like butter, sometimes it is like hitting your head to the wall. Here is my most recent replay, where the Protoss just went colossi-storm-ball, and I couldnt do anything about it. What did I do wrong, except the thing that I still made sling/bane vs her storm? | ||
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jshnaidz
Canada57 Posts
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 20 2011 08:42 jshnaidz wrote: Is there another way to deal with voidray/collosus/stalker with something besides roach corrupter? I find that the only way to win vs this composition is to count on the opponent being bad. If the protoss has good scouting it becomes very difficult to have just the right composition to get rid of this army because of his ability to constantly change his composition. For example if he sees the spire and scouts that im massing corrupter he can just make the rest of his army out of ground units and I will have nothing to do with the corrupters until greater spire tech assuming I survive the ground army push thereafter. A replay would be beneficial, because literally the proper response against someone going for both colossus and voidray tech is to just go kill them because all of their money is sunk into tech. Once the army gets up, yeah there isn't much you can do against it, so don't let it get up. On August 20 2011 05:32 Pinna wrote: Hello! I have a lot of problems against Toss, generally the deathball. So, how do you guys counter that? Dont say anything like "Deny third expo, all-in roach", I DONT want to play like that. I usually go for infestor-ling-bane-roach, which sometimes melts her army like butter, sometimes it is like hitting your head to the wall. Here is my most recent replay, where the Protoss just went colossi-storm-ball, and I couldnt do anything about it. What did I do wrong, except the thing that I still made sling/bane vs her storm? One major thing I'm noticing is a sever lack of scouting. For example, at around 13 minutes the only sort of tech you had scouted was a few void rays that harassed you. Your army was composed of mostly lings and hydras, stuff that just die to splash damage. You hadn't seen what the correct tactical decision was because you just didn't know what your opponent was doing! You hadn't seen the colossus, you hadn't seen the fully saturated third base, and you weren't taking advantage of the passivity of your opponent. If the protoss goes directly from stargate to robotics then that is a cue to either A) Be aggressive and take advantage of their lack of units, or B) Take advantage of the lack of ability your opponent has to move out by powering drones and expansion, you did neither and instead massed up this army that just wasn't useful. The big failure in this game was that engagement at 18:00...oh that hurt to watch. Some huuuuge missteps in this fight: 1) Too many infestors, because fungal doesn't stack you only need enough to coat your opponent's army 2-3 times, and no more. 2) Complete misuse of banelings. When you go for banelings in this matchup you want to use them inside of overlords, else they just get stopped by force fields and burned by colossus lasers. 3) Horrible, horrible place to attack. You had an army focused very heavily on lings and you just 1a-d into your opponent in that narrow corridor. With this kind of army you never want to be directly aggressive, you want to control the map. Never just sit back, make units, then 1a and expect a victory. Ling based armies are not particularly effective on this map anyways. 4) Finally, even though you had so many infestors, you didn't really use them in the battle. It's like you watched your army die, then remembered that the infestors existed but at that point they aren't particularly useful. Overall I think the biggest issue is in how you approach the game. Just making stuff and then throwing that stuff at your opponent is not strategy. You want to be abusing everything you can about the units you have, and constantly adjust to your opponent. edit: and dude, please look at your own replays. I know you might be thinking that imbalance was the only reason you could have possibly lost but you played horribly this game. Chances are you're not nearly as good as you think you are, so work on getting better rather that throwing out the BM. | ||
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CreeDo
United States82 Posts
On August 20 2011 05:32 Pinna wrote: Hello! I have a lot of problems against Toss, generally the deathball. So, how do you guys counter that? Dont say anything like "Deny third expo, all-in roach", I DONT want to play like that. I usually go for infestor-ling-bane-roach, which sometimes melts her army like butter, sometimes it is like hitting your head to the wall. Here is my most recent replay, where the Protoss just went colossi-storm-ball, and I couldnt do anything about it. What did I do wrong, except the thing that I still made sling/bane vs her storm? I'm taking your game as a weighted average of your current ZvP matchup. 1. The problem with a ling-bane combination is that sentries FF in chokes = a ton of wasted money. In your game, you threw a good number of units at the same 4 colossi, but they never died because A) his army directly countered yours (colossi + HT vs lings and banes) and B) your army had terrible positioning. He'd drop FFs in front of your banes and kill most of them off before they did any serious damage. The roach count wasn't high enough to defend your infestors which meant that the NP-ing infestors were easily targeted, and damage from those colossi were mitigated. If you want to continue with bane ling, you need to keep pressure on in different ways. For example overlord baneling bombs work wonders on colossi and are so much cheaper than a transition to corruptor/broodlord. 2. In any case you had some problems with your upgrades. you were engaging 2-2 units with 0-1 for awhile. If you're playing a longterm macro game with P you need to start upgrading quickly because his chronoboosted double forges are going to leave you trailing for sometime, giving him a ton of map control which he can use to expand. And that's exactly what happened. 3. The way you expanded allowed him to expand alongside you, which is terrible for Z. As the number of bases increases you need to continue increasing your base lead because the closer it gets to even, the more it favors the P. Your saturation was a little odd and by the time it was all said and done, your expands were fully saturated around the same time. I would say just work on your saturation timings as well as figuring out when to engage and when not to engage. Most of your problems were a result of your army composition and how you chose to fight. Also, bm at the end made me sad  . | ||
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jshnaidz
Canada57 Posts
A replay would be beneficial, because literally the proper response against someone going for both colossus and voidray tech is to just go kill them because all of their money is sunk into tech. Once the army gets up, yeah there isn't much you can do against it, so don't let it get up. Well if they're on 2 bases they can support it and killing them early isn't ideal because that's not something u can count on. I'm not looking for an analysis I'm looking for a strategy. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 20 2011 09:33 jshnaidz wrote: Well if they're on 2 bases they can support it and killing them early isn't ideal because that's not something u can count on. I'm not looking for an analysis I'm looking for a strategy. It is a strategy, and it is something you can count on. Allow me to be more clear: Stargate straight to colossus is not something one should be allowed to get away with, yet some protoss do by relying on the cannon at the front. Simply using drops to circumvent this and going for everything that isn't at the front will allow you to just kill them. Allow me to use a different example: Say, as a zerg, you see your opponent go gate first but you just take 2 expansions before spawning pool anyways, what would the protoss do? They would most likely 4gate, yes it is a "cheese" but 2 expansions before spawning pool is not something you should be allowed to get away with, so the protoss won't let you get away with it. Is 4gateing every game a solid way to play? Of course not! But if the protoss did anything else then they would be behind and lose in the long term, see the similarities? Stargate straight to colossus is just something you shouldn't allow your opponent to get away with, so go kill them. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 20 2011 08:42 jshnaidz wrote: Is there another way to deal with voidray/collosus/stalker with something besides roach corrupter? I find that the only way to win vs this composition is to count on the opponent being bad. If the protoss has good scouting it becomes very difficult to have just the right composition to get rid of this army because of his ability to constantly change his composition. For example if he sees the spire and scouts that im massing corrupter he can just make the rest of his army out of ground units and I will have nothing to do with the corrupters until greater spire tech assuming I survive the ground army push thereafter. This can be very difficult to fight, what you need is infestors. Infestors are a must vs this composition. You should add a little bit of hydra's not much just for the void rays if you don't want corruptors, but otherwise roach/infestor/corruptor does good vs this composition. | ||
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