EPTI ask because I like playing aggressively and army trading in the late game, but I feel that there isn't a matching opening for my style, so I'm interested to see other player's opinions.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 73
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
I ask because I like playing aggressively and army trading in the late game, but I feel that there isn't a matching opening for my style, so I'm interested to see other player's opinions. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:50 Requizen wrote: A bit of a general question, but are there any good aggressive non-cheese builds in any matchup? I know the walls make it hard to do anything short of baneling busts, but I feel that it's a bit frustrating that we don't have (that I know of) any non-defensive/non-macro builds for the early game. I ask because I like playing aggressively and army trading in the late game, but I feel that there isn't a matching opening for my style, so I'm interested to see other player's opinions. ZvT:  Expand Roach (vs. Terran)2 Base Ling AggressionZvP: 2 Base Infestor/Zergling (vs. Protoss)Roach/Zergling Pressure | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On August 13 2011 03:56 Requizen wrote: Very nice BlasiuS, I've seen some of those, but never really had the numbers for them. I do like the Destiny style vs Protoss, and I've never really seen the Roach build vs Terran. I feel that it's a bit scary to try since those Roaches can just get crushed by Tanks. But I'll probably end up trying it, as I <3 Roaches if you read the build for roach expand, you'll see it hits before they have tanks (unless they went for 1 base tanks, which is rare). | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On August 13 2011 03:59 BlasiuS wrote: if you read the build for roach expand, you'll see it hits before they have tanks (unless they went for 1 base tanks, which is rare). Not as rare in the lower leagues, of which I'm Gold :\ A lot of lower league Terrans know that Marine/Tank is good and just go http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Tank_Push_(vs._Zerg) I can hold it well enough playing standard, but I know that a Roach push will get punished by the Tanks. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On August 13 2011 04:39 Requizen wrote: Not as rare in the lower leagues, of which I'm Gold :\ A lot of lower league Terrans know that Marine/Tank is good and just go http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Tank_Push_(vs._Zerg) I can hold it well enough playing standard, but I know that a Roach push will get punished by the Tanks. actually 3 Tank Push (vs. Zerg) is a 2 base build, not a 1 base build. By the time this push hits you should have already transitioned into your mid-game build.Anyway Expand Roach (vs. Terran) explains what to do if your initial Roaches see Tanks. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Love seeing helpful posters! | ||
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TheMooseHeed
United Kingdom535 Posts
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JoeAWESOME
Sweden1080 Posts
On August 13 2011 07:10 TheMooseHeed wrote: Is 15 hatch on tal altar viable? I seem to either lose to mass speed ling or get out macroed because I prepare for the mass speedling and they drone up. I don't see how its scoutable as all it takes are 1 round of injects spent on lings and they can overwhelm you. So if you haven't prepared already your dead ZvZ - as usual you lose to 10 pool or less. Unless you have godlike macro and they screw up. If they 14/14 then you need to get banelings up blindly and then just get good scouting. ZvT - Yes I do this all the time. ZvP - I dont like doing this as they can just cannon you and you will most likely lose to that but if you wanna take a risk then do so. | ||
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maragin
United States59 Posts
Yes, scouting could tell me more. When I see that many BFH, I make some roaches, but my concern is with the plan going forward. Against Hellion/ Thor, should I plan to go Roach Infestor? If I see a midgame where he has massed Hellions, I'd like to figure out a proper tech response. Also, what evo upgrades are important vs mass mech? | ||
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ChanmanV
United States1156 Posts
- With heavy tank, you can still go with the muta transition from roach, skip infestor, into hive (BLs). You can handle <3 thors with mutas and the tanks and helion are forfeit once you magic box the thors. You can also go roach/infestor here but it's a bit harder if they have the thors behind the tanks. Burrow and tunneling claws can help you hug the tanks with the roaches. - against heavy thor, you have to go roach infestor into BLs. You can win alot of the enounters with just roach infestor by neuraling the thors. But if you're playing some good, you'll have to get to BLs and fight with mostly BLs and infestors. | ||
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maragin
United States59 Posts
On August 13 2011 08:14 ChanmanV wrote:You can handle <3 thors The internet has broken my brain. Less than three thors looked like you loved thors. (Thanks for the response) | ||
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Blezza
United Kingdom191 Posts
On August 07 2011 01:15 Belial88 wrote: Spoiler answering the post above me: + Show Spoiler + How do you avoid dying to stupid pushes? Was playing on Abyssal Caverns, close spawn. I got a ling parked right outside his base, I got him 100% scouted, marine tank with an CC on the way. I make 10 drones with the two injects popping and right that second he pushes with 14 marines 3 tanks. Meanwhile I have 4 lings and no larva. He marches right to my base and I manage to muster up 10 more lings, I can't attack him with 14 lings, so I have to sit back let him siege up and then it's just over. Even with the extra 16 lings coming from the next round of injects. Worst part is they don't even scout before pushing out with these small forces, for all they know I can have 60 lings just waiting for him, I guess you don't have to give a shit about your army when you can throw them away for nothing and still don't be in any threat to lose the game right there right now. The best 'counter' to siege tank timing attacks, I find, is creep. Generally, the only way Terran can do this is by opening a FE, otherwise they're siege tank and marine count will be too low. When Terran do FE builds, they usually hide shit and you play in the dark. IMO, the best 'counter' to not having a clue to what the opponent is doing, is make some extra queens and drone drone drone. You should already be spreading mad creep anyways, but if you sense a siege tank push, you just need to creep everything up and then make lots of lings nonstop. You'd be surprised how well lings own marine/tank when unsieged, in the open, and he'll know that, so force him to have to take his time, a very long time. By that time you should have enough lings to roll his army. Sometimes if this is going on, throw a few spines down to delay even more, although don't do this until he's parked out front and he's obviously going to stay there. You may want to remove drones from gas, and even throw a macro hatch or third down. It can be extremely difficult if they start to bunker up, but they can't put bunkers on creep, and creep takes a while to die even when they kill tumors. If you can delay his push by a good minute or two,you will be able to simply overwhelm him, maybe even have mutas with the counterpush so you can FF them down while lings run in. I have a question about ZvZ, and I wasn't sure how to make a new thread about it. I think it's something not everyone will be able to answer. Is getting hive tech worth it in ZvZ? Or in other words, is getting Broodlords preferably to massing more infestors, and can roach/Mass Infestor beat Roach/BL or Roach/BL/Infestor? I find that if the opponent goes Broodlords, you can go mass infestor (like only 20 or so roaches) and a spine wall. You must have roaches, and keep them with spines to soak up broodlings, and from behind you mass out infested terrans. You then FG to prevent BL's to run away, and FF with ITs. You have to have at least 20 infestors for this. It's extremely micro intensive, but I'm wondering if the opponent micros, they can maybe win out. I'm also curious what will win - 6 BL with 8 infestors, or a few roaches and about 20 infestors. I've had many games where I've completely dominated people who went broodlords by massing more infestors and soaking up from behind a spine wall. However, if you have a situation where your slightly behind, and it's only midgame, and they rush BL on 3 base, you may not have enough infestors and spines. So yea. Wanted to start a discussion on that. I could share replays of it working and not working, and I think it generally doesn't work in midgame when you can't have a huge crawl wall and 20+ infestors. I think in those situations though, I probably lost the game because I just didn't "go fucking kill him" when he was doing the whole BL thing. I'm also wondering if maybe if I'm ahead in the late-midgame (when we both have thirds just going up), that going BL/Infestor, with about 10ish infestors as support, is a good way to close out a game I've already won without dragging it out for another 15 minutes with the possibility of the opponent coming back. In ZvZ i value ultras more than B Lords. They are not really 'hard' countered by any other Zerg unit, are not slowed by fungal or affected by mind control and counter the roach, the staple unit in ZvZ. When teching to hive i get a spire and a ultra cavern. My late game comp. being roach/infestor/ultra/curropter with the curropters sniping the opponents B lords. This has worked well so far however do note that i am only in Plat (EU) so i am slightly nooby. | ||
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firehand101
Australia3152 Posts
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Warrice
United States565 Posts
Im high masters. | ||
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Chutoro
New Zealand95 Posts
I'm sure there's something in these replays that will be obvious to a higher level player's eyes, so here they are. Help is greatly appreciated. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/259199/stargate_rush_1.SC2Replay http://dl.dropbox.com/u/259199/stargate_rush_2.SC2Replay I'm only Plat, but feel pretty confident against mass VR so perhaps I can help. I watched the second since it was a loss. Your main problem here was that you didn't scout your opponent beyond confirming his start location. At the time the stargate went down he had only a zealot and probes, so couldn't have stopped you from scouting it. Once you've found the opponent you need to leave the drone there and keep it moving around (if you're worried about keeping up macro then just queue a lot of movements and leave it for a while). At a minimum you force him to make a stalker or sentry and kill your drone before dropping the stargate, and even then you'd have had some tells that should make you suspect tech of some kind (chrono on Nexus, 2 early gas). Your roach rush build is also not optimized - I suggest checking out the 5RR or 7RR variant on Liquipedia and following the timings. Your drone count in particular was very low and you didn't keep up production during your roach push (you had larvae just sitting there and minerals to make drones and didn't do it). Either the 7RR or 5RR variant would probably have won you the game right here (7RR due to hitting about 30 seconds earlier and 5RR due to speedling followup that would have cleaned up all the probes). Either way, get as much scouting info as you can and try not to roach rush blind if you can help it. Once the roach rush failed you were way behind on economy and unprepared for the VR followup and the game was more or less lost. Extra queens vs. VRs/phoenix are good but don't go crazy on the spores - you just need one or two to provide a safe zone for overlords and queens to retreat to. Making 4 plus a spine crawler like you did kills your economy (which as I mentioned was pretty weak to begin with). | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 13 2011 08:36 firehand101 wrote: If you favour Ultras over BL however, the BL can shoot ultras while ultras can't shoot up. It is a situation you do not want to be in If you just avoid the broods then it doesn't matter who kills who, it matters that ultras are hugging your hatch to death and the broods are floating slooooooowwwwwwly to try and save it. In a hive tech situation players will be spread out, and broods just aren't useful if you're covering large amounts of ground. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
When should you get Broodlords over Ultralisks in ZvP? When should you get Ultralisks over Broodlords in ZvP? As Morrow, Idra, Destiny, Spanishiwa, and many other Zergs have said, Ultralisks are much better than Broodlords. However - I think that having about 8-10 Broodlords, with 15+ infestors, with roach support, is pretty much invincible, and wall-offs and the like, as well as inefficiency, really hurt ultralisks. I mean I feel like Ultralisks are preferable if Protoss is making Void rays, getting a Voidray/Colossi or Voidray/Archon or Voidray/HT deathballs, getting mass blink stalkers, or getting mass archons - or against robo tech really. I think that BL's work better against mass gateway with HT, especially feedback heavy players, or armies that don't have colossi. But its confusing, because Ultralisks are like amazing against HT and archons. Maybe it's because Ultra/Ling is worse then Roach/BL against storm? But then, Ultralisks are the best way to deal with archons. Maybe it's that Ultralisks are better vs Deathballs, or an army full of 'heavy hitter' units of Archons or Colossi. But I can't really tell when Broodlords are better. I feel that if the game is completely neck and neck in the endgame, he has his third and you had to take a fourth as a resposne because you know you can't stop him, and then you need to take a fifth, and so on, Ultralisks are better. But if you ever get ahead, Broodlords are an amazing way to close a game when you have the lead. And then, BL/Infestor is a really strong combo against HT based builds. ;/ | ||
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Blezza
United Kingdom191 Posts
On August 13 2011 08:36 firehand101 wrote: If you favour Ultras over BL however, the BL can shoot ultras while ultras can't shoot up. It is a situation you do not want to be in This is why i get a spire and make curopters as said in my earlier post . | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 13 2011 21:37 Belial88 wrote: I have a question: When should you get Broodlords over Ultralisks in ZvP? When should you get Ultralisks over Broodlords in ZvP? As Morrow, Idra, Destiny, Spanishiwa, and many other Zergs have said, Ultralisks are much better than Broodlords. However - I think that having about 8-10 Broodlords, with 15+ infestors, with roach support, is pretty much invincible, and wall-offs and the like, as well as inefficiency, really hurt ultralisks. I mean I feel like Ultralisks are preferable if Protoss is making Void rays, getting a Voidray/Colossi or Voidray/Archon or Voidray/HT deathballs, getting mass blink stalkers, or getting mass archons - or against robo tech really. I think that BL's work better against mass gateway with HT, especially feedback heavy players, or armies that don't have colossi. But its confusing, because Ultralisks are like amazing against HT and archons. Maybe it's because Ultra/Ling is worse then Roach/BL against storm? But then, Ultralisks are the best way to deal with archons. Maybe it's that Ultralisks are better vs Deathballs, or an army full of 'heavy hitter' units of Archons or Colossi. But I can't really tell when Broodlords are better. I feel that if the game is completely neck and neck in the endgame, he has his third and you had to take a fourth as a resposne because you know you can't stop him, and then you need to take a fifth, and so on, Ultralisks are better. But if you ever get ahead, Broodlords are an amazing way to close a game when you have the lead. And then, BL/Infestor is a really strong combo against HT based builds. ;/ To me, the biggest factor in this question is the map. On a widespread, open map like Tal'darim where you need a fast force to abuse spread-out-ness, and have plenty of surface area in your engagements, ultras tend to be the favorable option. On a more closed map, like typhon peaks, broods can be used to abuse the terrain much better. Also, because of how little room stalkers will have to blink under the brood lords, your forms of splash (banelings and fungal) become that much more effective and it becomes easier to keep your brood lords alive. | ||
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