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yeah ultras vs archons .. they may win in a 1 vs 1 (nearly dead as well) but if there are some zealots or other units behind dealing damge while the ultra does 15 damage and 5!!! aoe damge to other archons you just gona cry
Right... which is where infestors or banelings come in. Late game, banelings are incredibly effective against zealots, and Ultralisk/Baneling/Infestor is the best unit composition for Zerg (outside of queen/Hive combos which require getting queens across somehow).
And zealots lack offensive capability against Zerg. Protoss isn't going to see 10 Ultras, and think "great, I have 30 zealots, time to push!" because just a few roaches, infestors, or banes will end that. Zealots are also pretty slow.
@Belial I've never seen BL's used in ZvZ so I cant tell you for sure, but icant imagine them being that great. Yes, maybe in straight up battles they might work, but you'll be counter attacked all over the place because they're excruciatingly slow. That being said, Huve tech is EXTREMELY viable in ZvZ. Ultras are amazing in the match up. A few days ago, I saw IdrA streaming and he would go ling muta with a bunch of spines to stop roach timings. With the map control, he'd rush to ultras, and win in a dominating fashion. He beat Sheth with this strategy on ladder, and the next game against Sheth, lost to thus style of play. I
I don't know about that. Ultras are pretty bad in ZvZ, they are only good way to finish an opponent who is losing. If the opponent has mass infestor, ultras will get stopped pretty hard. BLs are better than ultras in ZvZ anyways.
I mean ZvZ mid+ game is all about roach/infestor, and then getting BL. Ultras get dominated by inclusion of hydras in an army or mass IT from mass infestor, and ling/muta is only good as sort of gimmicky play that takes advantage of an opponent who doesn't make infestors against mass muta, or does make infestors too quickly against just a few mutas.
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Recently I've been doing lots of 2 base muta against terrans. But I want to know if there are any strong pushes a zerg can do in the mid-game. Can someone recommend me any versatile 2 base timing/pressure pushes against Terran?
Thanks
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I keep running into games where I'm ahead, up by a base or two, against protoss. I can easily defeat a deathball of gateway units with colossi. However, as soon as they bring mass archon into the mix, I cannot deal with it. This one game I threw away an entire ling/ultra/infestor army at a bunch of archons and colossi and he came out almost entirely fine. He had like 10 harvesters, and myself 61. But he just took out all my lings.
Is a roach tech switch viable here? He had a lot of zealots. My lings were 3-3, ultras, 5-3. He was 3-1 or 2-1. How do I deal with a lot of archons? I guess instead of ultra, blords may have worked.
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yeah ultras vs archons .. they may win in a 1 vs 1 (nearly dead as well) but if there are some zealots or other units behind dealing damge while the ultra does 15 damage and 5!!! aoe damge to other archons you just gona cry
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying. But zealots will rape ultralisks, largely because they are so 'free' at end-game, so you just rolling the Protoss army with 20 ultralisks and 20 zerglings with 20 infestors, will be stopped cold by a warp-in of 10 zealots with 10 more about to come, and 2 immortals popping.
Which is why it is so important to always have banelings with your ultralisks. With banelings by the ultras, they really have no counter.
Ultras are amazing in the match up. A few days ago, I saw IdrA streaming and he would go ling muta with a bunch of spines to stop roach timings. With the map control, he'd rush to ultras, and win in a dominating fashion. He beat Sheth with this strategy on ladder, and the next game against Sheth, lost to thus style of play. I
Yea. Seems kind of gimmicky, I don't know.
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Recently In ZvP i have been wanting to do Roach/Ling timings on Protoss that expo but it seen once they hold it off, i feel like im forced to go roach,hydra. Is their any tips on trasitioning from roach into something like Ling/Infestor.
or should I just be skipping the roach timing all together, and get the ling/infestor comp?
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On August 08 2011 21:25 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +
yeah ultras vs archons .. they may win in a 1 vs 1 (nearly dead as well) but if there are some zealots or other units behind dealing damge while the ultra does 15 damage and 5!!! aoe damge to other archons you just gona cry
Right... which is where infestors or banelings come in. Late game, banelings are incredibly effective against zealots, and Ultralisk/Baneling/Infestor is the best unit composition for Zerg (outside of queen/Hive combos which require getting queens across somehow). And zealots lack offensive capability against Zerg. Protoss isn't going to see 10 Ultras, and think "great, I have 30 zealots, time to push!" because just a few roaches, infestors, or banes will end that. Zealots are also pretty slow. Show nested quote +@Belial I've never seen BL's used in ZvZ so I cant tell you for sure, but icant imagine them being that great. Yes, maybe in straight up battles they might work, but you'll be counter attacked all over the place because they're excruciatingly slow. That being said, Huve tech is EXTREMELY viable in ZvZ. Ultras are amazing in the match up. A few days ago, I saw IdrA streaming and he would go ling muta with a bunch of spines to stop roach timings. With the map control, he'd rush to ultras, and win in a dominating fashion. He beat Sheth with this strategy on ladder, and the next game against Sheth, lost to thus style of play. I I don't know about that. Ultras are pretty bad in ZvZ, they are only good way to finish an opponent who is losing. If the opponent has mass infestor, ultras will get stopped pretty hard. BLs are better than ultras in ZvZ anyways. I mean ZvZ mid+ game is all about roach/infestor, and then getting BL. Ultras get dominated by inclusion of hydras in an army or mass IT from mass infestor, and ling/muta is only good as sort of gimmicky play that takes advantage of an opponent who doesn't make infestors against mass muta, or does make infestors too quickly against just a few mutas.
Actually, Broodlords are used very often in late game ZvZ, along with ultralisks. The perfect late game comp looks like infestors/hydras/roach/brood lords. Ultralisks feel a little gimicky to me just because they can't hit air, and brood lords are much more flexible because they can fly. However, ultras don't take stun from fungal or can be neural parasited. I guess its all based on your style, but generally, BLs > ultralisks.
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Recently In ZvP i have been wanting to do Roach/Ling timings on Protoss that expo but it seen once they hold it off, i feel like im forced to go roach,hydra. Is their any tips on trasitioning from roach into something like Ling/Infestor.
or should I just be skipping the roach timing all together, and get the ling/infestor comp?
If you fail to do significant damage it's basically GG since your behind on tech. Therefore, the logical answer is if you fail to end the game but want to continue playing, you need to tech like a madman (not to mention your economy will be far behind). Hopefully if you aren't able to end the game, or are banking resources during the fight, you put down a third so you can catch up in economy quickly.
I would recommend you go for infestors. The timing window will generally be way too late for hydras, as you spent the ~1-2 minute opening for hydras doing a timing attack. Hydras have about a minute when they can work, and that's if you go straight from opening to hydras, so delaying that with a huge roach attack closes that door.
The way P works (not like Zerg) means that they will still have their tech even after you kill their army and probes and expo, unless you take down their cybercore and all the tech they were going for (which means you should've ended the game then and there).
You're in a completely unwinnable position, most of the time, if the game continues, so just go with infestors and hopefully you can hold off colossi/stargate/twilight tech. If the opponent goes for 2 base HT you lose, but you were going to lose anyways. You can just go straight to ling/infestor, as you would not have upgraded your roaches much or at all anyways with a hatch tech (or even lair tech) roach/ling attack. The good thing about ling/infestor is that you only need about 30ish drones to support it, so you can mount a large enough army to hold off P counterattack with a relatively low drone count. Roach/Infestor requires full saturation, if not a third, so that may be a bit impossible.
Actually, Broodlords are used very often in late game ZvZ, along with ultralisks. The perfect late game comp looks like infestors/hydras/roach/brood lords. Ultralisks feel a little gimicky to me just because they can't hit air, and brood lords are much more flexible because they can fly. However, ultras don't take stun from fungal or can be neural parasited. I guess its all based on your style, but generally, BLs > ultralisks.
I'm aware that BL are used often. I'm asking if, counterintuitively, mass infestor with ~10-20 roaches is a better 'perfect' composition since you can kill off BL with is with ease. Obviously, ultralisks get owned by mass ultra, but I'm asking if BL is even ever worth it.
I mean is it a matter of "3-4 BL with mass infestor is better than none at all" or is 3-4 more infestors with your mass infestor is better than BL. We already know that infested terran is much better for breaking crawl walls and defenses in ZvZ than broodlords, which are slow and don't have as much damage, and can be a liability due to the slowness.
I'm not trying to ask a question I already have an answer to. I don't. I just think many people don't understand what I'm saying, and have no experience using infestors in such a capacity. But in my experience, and my experience meaning just Diamond level experience, I've almost always won out against broodlords by 'countering' them with mass infestors and a crawl wall to hold them in place and soak damage for the infestors. There are a few instances where the BL player won, and I believe it is only because I entered the late-midgame way too far behind (ie I shouldve GGd 20 minutes ago, my third is much later) or catastrophic micro mistakes.
I mean maybe the people I played went Roach/BL, which obviously gets smashed by Mass infestor. Maybe BL/Infestor is a much better composition, in where you can FG and IT the opponent to deny them from killing your BL.
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United States83 Posts
I've got a question regarding unit comp. I'm a high-end gold league zergie, and I typically use Spanishiwa's opener in all three matchups (occasionally using 14 pool 14 gas in zvz). The biggest difference in the matchups is my target comp. In zvt and zvz I aim for roach/investor and finally ultras when able. Zvp is muta/ling/bling, so I can harass and counterattack. I try to tech to ultras in all three matches because I prefer them to broodlords. Basically my question is are those unit comps good targets for the matchs?
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So I'm in gold, and I got 2port banshee'd because he denied all my scout.
How the hell do you scout a terran pre-lair, when there's a marine patrolling for any overlords and a bunker at the front?
Also, how do you beat pure mech? (Tank/Viking/Thor/Hellion)?
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On August 11 2011 04:41 deathtrance wrote:
So I'm in gold, and I got 2port banshee'd because he denied all my scout.
How the hell do you scout a terran pre-lair, when there's a marine patrolling for any overlords and a bunker at the front?
Also, how do you beat pure mech? (Tank/Viking/Thor/Hellion)?
You really have to make guesses to what the terran is up to, which isn't too hard once you play game after game. My advice is always have extra queens and an evo chamber up by the time a 2 port would hit so you can adjust accordingly without having to plan to face it, in a sense.
As for mech, the 'counter' to mech is mobility, specifically dominating the map with mutalisks. You might never kill a single scv or stray depot with your mutalisks if your opponent is turtleing hard on 2 bases, which is the likely scenario, but that's okay. The real purpose of the mutalisks is to act as an indirect contain, forcing your opponent to never move out and never take a third because of always threatening a counter attack. In a optimal scenario against mech, you'll be up 4 bases to your opponent's 2 and simply be able to swarm with roaches by the time the attack rolls out. You have to be cost-inefficient against mech, but it is easy to make up for that by having a ridiculous economy because of how immobile your opponent is.
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On August 11 2011 04:37 Molten-elmnt wrote:
I've got a question regarding unit comp. I'm a high-end gold league zergie, and I typically use Spanishiwa's opener in all three matchups (occasionally using 14 pool 14 gas in zvz). The biggest difference in the matchups is my target comp. In zvt and zvz I aim for roach/investor and finally ultras when able. Zvp is muta/ling/bling, so I can harass and counterattack. I try to tech to ultras in all three matches because I prefer them to broodlords. Basically my question is are those unit comps good targets for the matchs?
Did you have a typo regarding ZvT and ZvP? Because I think you have those backwards. Your mid-game comp in ZvT should be Muta/ling/baneling, working towards a late game of infestor brood lord when you feel you're ahead. In ZvP, Roach infestor works for almost all stages of the game, unless your opponent incorporate elements that are meant do deal with it. Such as templar, it can be a smart idea to go baneling bombs to supplement the infestors if most of your opponent's gas is going towards templar. Similarly for colossus, roach/infestor can handle a mid-game colossus stalker, but when the numbers of colossus approach 4-6 you'll need to make the brood lord transition.
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United States83 Posts
On August 11 2011 04:54 Soluhwin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 04:37 Molten-elmnt wrote:
I've got a question regarding unit comp. I'm a high-end gold league zergie, and I typically use Spanishiwa's opener in all three matchups (occasionally using 14 pool 14 gas in zvz). The biggest difference in the matchups is my target comp. In zvt and zvz I aim for roach/investor and finally ultras when able. Zvp is muta/ling/bling, so I can harass and counterattack. I try to tech to ultras in all three matches because I prefer them to broodlords. Basically my question is are those unit comps good targets for the matchs? Did you have a typo regarding ZvT and ZvP? Because I think you have those backwards. Your mid-game comp in ZvT should be Muta/ling/baneling, working towards a late game of infestor brood lord when you feel you're ahead. In ZvP, Roach infestor works for almost all stages of the game, unless your opponent incorporate elements that are meant do deal with it. Such as templar, it can be a smart idea to go baneling bombs to supplement the infestors if most of your opponent's gas is going towards templar. Similarly for colossus, roach/infestor can handle a mid-game colossus stalker, but when the numbers of colossus approach 4-6 you'll need to make the brood lord transition.
I actually did not make a typo there, that has been my normal unit comp for the three match ups. I tried muta/ling/bling after watching Ret use it a lot against protoss, and roach/infestor always felt strong against terran and zerg.
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On August 11 2011 00:00 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Actually, Broodlords are used very often in late game ZvZ, along with ultralisks. The perfect late game comp looks like infestors/hydras/roach/brood lords. Ultralisks feel a little gimicky to me just because they can't hit air, and brood lords are much more flexible because they can fly. However, ultras don't take stun from fungal or can be neural parasited. I guess its all based on your style, but generally, BLs > ultralisks.
I'm aware that BL are used often. I'm asking if, counterintuitively, mass infestor with ~10-20 roaches is a better 'perfect' composition since you can kill off BL with is with ease. Obviously, ultralisks get owned by mass ultra, but I'm asking if BL is even ever worth it. I mean is it a matter of "3-4 BL with mass infestor is better than none at all" or is 3-4 more infestors with your mass infestor is better than BL. We already know that infested terran is much better for breaking crawl walls and defenses in ZvZ than broodlords, which are slow and don't have as much damage, and can be a liability due to the slowness. I'm not trying to ask a question I already have an answer to. I don't. I just think many people don't understand what I'm saying, and have no experience using infestors in such a capacity. But in my experience, and my experience meaning just Diamond level experience, I've almost always won out against broodlords by 'countering' them with mass infestors and a crawl wall to hold them in place and soak damage for the infestors. There are a few instances where the BL player won, and I believe it is only because I entered the late-midgame way too far behind (ie I shouldve GGd 20 minutes ago, my third is much later) or catastrophic micro mistakes. I mean maybe the people I played went Roach/BL, which obviously gets smashed by Mass infestor. Maybe BL/Infestor is a much better composition, in where you can FG and IT the opponent to deny them from killing your BL.
Well of course no Zerg is going to charge into battle with just broodlords, they will have units defending it. Anytime you have broodlords you will want to defend them at all costs, letting frontal units tank damage. The "proper" way of playing ZvZ (currently) is to have massive infestor/roach balls and to try to deal as much damage while saving your infestors in every battle. You should only have to increase your infestor numbers, not to remake them. This means that you will have a large number of infestors (with or without stocked energy depending on what happened in the mid game) in time to complement your higher tech units (broodlords or ultralisks). My argument still stands that broodlords (when coupled with support units) > ultralisks. Mass infestors can be good, but you need very fast APM to micro both your tanking units and infestors into battle. I think corruptors are actually decent against broodlords, as they can also fly and can't be attacked if the opponent does not have hydras. As well mass infestors cost a hella gas, so good luck getting to that number. Their 90 hp (2 fungal kill) is a bit of a turn-off.
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On August 11 2011 12:47 Molten-elmnt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 04:54 Soluhwin wrote:On August 11 2011 04:37 Molten-elmnt wrote:
I've got a question regarding unit comp. I'm a high-end gold league zergie, and I typically use Spanishiwa's opener in all three matchups (occasionally using 14 pool 14 gas in zvz). The biggest difference in the matchups is my target comp. In zvt and zvz I aim for roach/investor and finally ultras when able. Zvp is muta/ling/bling, so I can harass and counterattack. I try to tech to ultras in all three matches because I prefer them to broodlords. Basically my question is are those unit comps good targets for the matchs? Did you have a typo regarding ZvT and ZvP? Because I think you have those backwards. Your mid-game comp in ZvT should be Muta/ling/baneling, working towards a late game of infestor brood lord when you feel you're ahead. In ZvP, Roach infestor works for almost all stages of the game, unless your opponent incorporate elements that are meant do deal with it. Such as templar, it can be a smart idea to go baneling bombs to supplement the infestors if most of your opponent's gas is going towards templar. Similarly for colossus, roach/infestor can handle a mid-game colossus stalker, but when the numbers of colossus approach 4-6 you'll need to make the brood lord transition. I actually did not make a typo there, that has been my normal unit comp for the three match ups. I tried muta/ling/bling after watching Ret use it a lot against protoss, and roach/infestor always felt strong against terran and zerg.
I've seen and tried ling/bling muta vs toss as well but it seems risky and mostly situational. It works wonders on zealot and immortal heavy armies but templars, archons and even stalkers can really destroy this badly. Storms are so strong against all three. In my experience for this to be effective you need lots of lings and drop your banes perfectly on the ball. If done right you can really pull ahead. Incorporate bane drops on his mineral lines too. Another advantage of this is once you get +2 melee attack the banes kill probes in one shot, this is really effective! Otherwise you need good scouting and knowledge of his unit comp to go ling bane muta. It never hurts to have a roach warren in place just in case you need to switch and the spire means you can get corrupters/BLs if necessary. I would not go this build against toss if i can't switch quickly.
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On August 11 2011 04:41 deathtrance wrote:
So I'm in gold, and I got 2port banshee'd because he denied all my scout.
How the hell do you scout a terran pre-lair, when there's a marine patrolling for any overlords and a bunker at the front?
If he bunkered at the front you know he is teching. So you are basically free to drone hard while dropping an evo, warren and getting a third queen (which you should do anyway) and connecting your bases. Keep 1-2 zerglings close to his base to see unit movement. If you see hellions coming pump a couple of roaches. Otherwise around 6:30-7:00 drop some spores (2-3 in main to cover it all) and probably 2 in nat.
Also, how do you beat pure mech? (Tank/Viking/Thor/Hellion)?
Infestor/muta with ultras seems best. Keep some lings for run bys. His army will push quite slow across the map. Best case scenario for you is (in an engagement): mind control the thors while ultras absorb damage and block units coming in and use mutas to kill tanks.
Edit: Cause I am stupid. Actually brood/infestor/corruptor also works very well vs mech since broods totally mess with thor AI movement.
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When would be a good time to start transitioning to brood lords, I rarely ever get them because I feel so exposed to some sort of push that my opponent could do before the BL come
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On August 12 2011 00:59 sgtjimmy wrote:
When would be a good time to start transitioning to brood lords, I rarely ever get them because I feel so exposed to some sort of push that my opponent could do before the BL come
you should watch some morrows games when he starts going broods he makes like 10-15 even 20 spines sometimes just to buy himself time, usually by the time u go broods u have alot of minerals anyways so its not going be a waste, hope that helps:-)
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On August 12 2011 00:59 sgtjimmy wrote:
When would be a good time to start transitioning to brood lords, I rarely ever get them because I feel so exposed to some sort of push that my opponent could do before the BL come
It depends on the matchup. In TvZ the brood lord switch should only be made when you feel you have a lead, otherwise you'd just die to a well timed push. Infestor/brood lord is a way to win a game riding your lead, not gain one.
In ZvP, brood lords are rather situational and are generally made to take advantage of a low stalker count from your opponent, usually caused by templar or colossus based armies. In this matchup, you kind of have to think of the heavy tech switch like taking an expansion, just do it if you feel you have a moment of safety. The best way to secure this safety is often times with a large push, or persistent counter-aggression to force your opponent to not leave their base. These work especially well with the brood lord tech switch because aggression will not only provide safety, it will also free up supply if you're maxed and lower your opponent's stalker count, allowing the broods to be more effective.
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On August 09 2011 07:50 They_ wrote:
Recently I've been doing lots of 2 base muta against terrans. But I want to know if there are any strong pushes a zerg can do in the mid-game. Can someone recommend me any versatile 2 base timing/pressure pushes against Terran?
Thanks
Unfortunatly thats the ZvT match. You may wana go on liquipedia and check their TvZ section and take a look at thier opening fast expand into agression builds, or try a strong openin and just test a variety of rush's. Ones that pop into mind immediatly are:
Kyrix style aggression: drone till 32 drones on mineral, 6 on gass and then power ling/bane and crush the T when they push out to expand, or if they go tech heavy bust the door and storm in. (may want a 3rd hatch, cant remember if Kyrix got it, i dont think so.)
7Roach Rush is a early rush, but can stem into the mid game, Search 7RR for more details.
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Hi guys, high platinum here.
I'm having trouble with 1 base terrans. Here is a replay :
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/174975-1v1-terran-zerg-backwater-gulch
Terran goes for reactor helions (I scout and react appropriately, I think) and has a siege tank at my door at 7:30. I obviously don't have mutas yet and cant handle it, and eventually lose.
I'm trying to analyze my loss, and I think the things I couldve done to prevent this loss were :
- Better micro. I threw my army bit by bit into him, instead of waiting and throwing everything at once. Its not easy to do so because some units randomly decide to attack (siege shot landed near them etc). Any tips on how to do this?
- Get roaches earlier. The problem with helions is that even if I prevent them from doing damage (spines + queens blocking ramp in this case), I do give up map control. This allows T to bring his siege tank to my door without me being able to intercept this. Getting roaches wouldve forced him to defend the tank's approach, which can mean a lot more time to get tech.
- Thumbs down the map. I really think that the positioning was abusive of the maps terrain. I'm considering vetoing backwater gulch for this.
Would like to hear your thoughts.
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EPT
