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I hope these aren't dumb questions, but I've always wanted to ask some stuff ITT :-P
I'm a mid (I think? Hard to tell w/ new season)-masters Zerg.
I like to open gasless. It's the build in ZvT I have the most success and experience with. I generally always transition into upgraded lings and infestors while taking a 3rd and racing towards Hive tech. My historical winrate vs. T is very high. (I played T for 6 months and switched to Z in early April, so I know the race fairly well).
However, in facing Terrans who were ~1700-1800ish last season who go reactor hellion and/or blue flame into drop play I've been struggling if they can micro well (some Ts try the elevator hellion stuff and are just so bad at it lol, but one who executes it well is a boss to deal with). Do I have to abandon gasless vs these guys?
I've been trying to build spines in the main and getting roaches out as quick as possible after I take my gasses all around ~40, but it doesn't seem to be working. The drops generally come before the roaches (altho blue flame really isn't before then) and then if I make roaches, the T goes mass fucking mind numbing siege tank. I'm working on my micro in defending this with 4 Qs + spines + slow lings, but it's the Ts who drop a group of marines with the hellions that are giving me fits.
Is stubbornly sticking to upgraded ling/infestor vs blue flame open (meaning they transition to standard play after it but still have 4-8 BFH on the field) impossible vs better Ts? I've gotten away with a lot, but it's cause before this week or so the Ts I've been playing are low masters and have a habit of losing their hellions very carelessly to fungals.
Is my gasless expand style just not viable against elevator hellion/rine play or do I just need to keep working on my sim city and micro?
Additionally, how do you guys feel about a burrow move roach open vs Ts on ladder now? I've actually seen decent early game success with this (getting an economic lead), but I've struggled in transitioning out of it to face the inevitable mass tank play I'm going to see.
Thanks.
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Are there example games of holding off early pools when you go hatch first? tbh, I don't really fear 6/7/8 pools when I 15hatch unless he brings all his drones and makes spines too. I've had a lot of trouble with 10/11 pools where they mass up 8-10 lings after the pool finishes and then push out, right around when my hatch finishes but my pool is still only halfway done.
Is this a possible scenario to win with good micro, or does it come down to the aggressor playing it badly? It feels like even if I stall out enough to get my lings out, he'll have another 8 incoming because his economy is decent compared to an earlier pool build.
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On August 05 2011 21:33 Emporio wrote:
Are there example games of holding off early pools when you go hatch first? tbh, I don't really fear 6/7/8 pools when I 15hatch unless he brings all his drones and makes spines too. I've had a lot of trouble with 10/11 pools where they mass up 8-10 lings after the pool finishes and then push out, right around when my hatch finishes but my pool is still only halfway done.
Is this a possible scenario to win with good micro, or does it come down to the aggressor playing it badly? It feels like even if I stall out enough to get my lings out, he'll have another 8 incoming because his economy is decent compared to an earlier pool build.
nestea losira gsl finals spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +Hatch first is simply a straight up bo to early pool done right. If you look at how nestea plays zvz, he will often 10 pool, even though it does 0 damage to 14/14, just for the chance that he will catch a hatch first. In the last game of the gsl finals losira hatch firsts and nestea 10 pools. He sees the hatch first with a scouting drone, which triggers him to bring all of his drones but a few with his lings and build spines in losira's base... autowin.
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Hi guys, I'm fairly low level zerg and I have a few questions.
I haven't played in a while but I have recently come back to find a few changes in the general style that zerg plays. I don't think I have the micro yet to get into things like baneling drops, or attacks on multiple fronts. Whatever wins I get usually come from just having more stuff than the other guy.
My questions basically.
1. When should I get my 3rd base, if I have a basic roach/ling comp?
2. When should I get infestors under the same conditions?
3. When should I go for hive tech?
I don't really need specific times or food counts, just sort of general mindset. And also this is vs T or P I'm not yet at the level where (or at least I feel) that I can have a number of different builds that I can execute consistently in specific situations.
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Okay, so sometimes playing against Terran on small maps/close spawn I go pool first, in order to avoid getting bunker rushed, but then they bunker me in at the bottom of my ramp. What's the best way to avoid this? I absolutely hate how easy it is for terran to establish this almost unbreakable position.
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United States85 Posts
On August 06 2011 01:32 galtdunn wrote:
Okay, so sometimes playing against Terran on small maps/close spawn I go pool first, in order to avoid getting bunker rushed, but then they bunker me in at the bottom of my ramp. What's the best way to avoid this? I absolutely hate how easy it is for terran to establish this almost unbreakable position.
Just scout around down there for an scv. If he only has 1 scv, there should be no way he has enough time to bunker the bottom of your ramp. If he brings 2, just bring a few more drones to stall until your lings pop, since you went 14 pool. Bunker rushes are not good against 14 pool, they're good against hatch first. The only way this kind of contain works is if you don't scout it, just like the Protoss pylon wall off won't work unless you don't scout it.
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hey mid master zerg here
i have been having trouble in ZvT lately against the one base marine tank push with like 20 marines with stim, 3/4 tanks with siege mode and sometimes a medivac. I get roaches and speedling to try to deal it but always get obliterated by tanks and this push is aimed at my muta timing and i have no idea how to deal with this plz help with wat composition(if there is) is better and how should i attack into them(i tried flank with zergling b4 still died ><)
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heyhey diamond zerg on EU here.
Terran's TvZ usually rely a lot on dropping and forcing your opponent to multitask, can zerg do this to terran aswell?
would for exmample, reasonably fast drops be a good idea? the idea is to do some roach/ling drops in the opponent's base.
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On August 06 2011 01:54 JL_GG wrote:
hey mid master zerg here
i have been having trouble in ZvT lately against the one base marine tank push with like 20 marines with stim, 3/4 tanks with siege mode and sometimes a medivac. I get roaches and speedling to try to deal it but always get obliterated by tanks and this push is aimed at my muta timing and i have no idea how to deal with this plz help with wat composition(if there is) is better and how should i attack into them(i tried flank with zergling b4 still died ><)
Roaches are pretty bad at handling that specific push because tanks just destroy roaches and so do stimmed marines. Since it's a 1 base push it sounds like it comes around 8 min or so, so mutas won't be very helpful. If you see a terran staying on 1 base, sack an overlord at 6 min or so to see what's up and if you see marine/tank stop making drones at around 40 supply or so and just start pumping lings with a few banelings. You really don't want to be making roaches unless he has hellions.
On August 06 2011 02:01 GuardianEU wrote:
heyhey diamond zerg on EU here.
Terran's TvZ usually rely a lot on dropping and forcing your opponent to multitask, can zerg do this to terran aswell?
would for exmample, reasonably fast drops be a good idea? the idea is to do some roach/ling drops in the opponent's base.
Constant muta harass is probably the best option as far as taking advantage of your multitasking and lack of multitasking for your opponent. If you can manage your macro while doing non-stop harass you can quickly tear apart a bad terran.
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I experienced with drops against terran, but they mostly failed, because of tanks, marines, thors, vikings. Terran Army has soo many good units that counter drops efficently. In my opinion are drops in ZvT not an option :/
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I've recently been having trouble hitting the scout timing and responding correctly to fast banshee and fast voidray.
vP should I sac an ovie to scout him at 6:30 to see if he has a stargate down?
if he does, what's the correct level of response to 1 or2 stargates, currently I throw down 1-3 spores at each base depending on how much he has, shying away from adding more queens due to graviton beam. The problem i have moving forward is then the difficulty taking my 3rd, as the VRs can burn down a building hatch very quickly, while it's impossible to have spores there yet, and queens are slow and easy to pick off.
vT I find it extremely difficult to scout whether the T is going banshee, blueflame helion, drop, or just a straight up push. If he's good he can deny my scouting entirely, only showing 5-10 marines and the front barracks.
Even when i do scout banshee play I've found spore crawlers can hardly cover your drones, while queens can't fight banshees 1 on 1.
Should I be starting production on additional queens the moment I scout banshees?
If I over commit to defence here it seems too easy for the T to swap into BF hellions or a marine tank push.
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On August 06 2011 01:40 Skroach wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 01:32 galtdunn wrote:
Okay, so sometimes playing against Terran on small maps/close spawn I go pool first, in order to avoid getting bunker rushed, but then they bunker me in at the bottom of my ramp. What's the best way to avoid this? I absolutely hate how easy it is for terran to establish this almost unbreakable position. Just scout around down there for an scv. If he only has 1 scv, there should be no way he has enough time to bunker the bottom of your ramp. If he brings 2, just bring a few more drones to stall until your lings pop, since you went 14 pool. Bunker rushes are not good against 14 pool, they're good against hatch first. The only way this kind of contain works is if you don't scout it, just like the Protoss pylon wall off won't work unless you don't scout it.
Well in my experience he shows up with 3-4 scvs and 3-4 marines. It's close spawn on shattered (or something similar, happened on Searing Crater too), and once he throws down the bunkers, so then I can't hit the marines. So unless he kindly waits around for 10-15 seconds at the bottom of my ramp there's nothing I can do.
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On August 05 2011 06:42 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 03:55 KimJongChill wrote:
How do you guys deal with mass marine/medivac with fast upgrades? Should I be getting hive tech against this composition? Should I choose mutas, since this style favors heavy drops, and since the mass medivacs heal fungal damage very, very fast? What about ling/bling as opposed to ling/infestor? spread creep asap with extra queens. when you see him poke onto the creep with mass marines have all your ling bling in one control group and click behind the marines. the lings will surround preventing marines from microing too much and the blings which are slightly slower will come in and blow up all the marines. being on creep is the real key here as marines cant micro against blings on creep. my typical zvt i go ling bling and then when i take my third i start making hydras, like 25 of them, rest ling bling. i havent lost to terran on the ladder in 2 weeks, high diamond atm.
Hydras??? Against mass marine, or standard Terran? Are you sure you meant hydras??????
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On August 06 2011 03:20 Shiladie wrote:
vT I find it extremely difficult to scout whether the T is going banshee, blueflame helion, drop, or just a straight up push. If he's good he can deny my scouting entirely, only showing 5-10 marines and the front barracks.
Even when i do scout banshee play I've found spore crawlers can hardly cover your drones, while queens can't fight banshees 1 on 1.
Should I be starting production on additional queens the moment I scout banshees?
If I over commit to defence here it seems too easy for the T to swap into BF hellions or a marine tank push.
Your best bet is to get an early third queen into your play regardless of what's going on. So if it's just a normal game you can spread with it but if you suspect anything you still got it around. From there try your hardest to check out gases. Some maps you can see gas with a scouting overlord. If you see 2 gas than you know some kind of early marine tank won't likely be coming and it's more likely starport play. From there keep vision around his his base. Get evo and just wait. It's better to be ready for something that could lose you the game and be slightly behind if it's not that thing.
On the topic of spores. You generally want a spore mainly for detection and use your 3 queens with transfusion to fend off the play. If he's going for some kind of wait till 4 banshees than attack you should be able to get lair in time(if it's a transition) or just spore up like a mad man. The root time of spores means even if they not attacking you they still tanking for your queens which helps a lot.
At the end of the day just be proactive with your scouting and don't drone too hard. Your goal is to survive. You don't need to take a risk in order to gain an advantage. Survive the one base timing or at least be even on an expansion.
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On August 05 2011 12:10 Whole wrote:
Also, when should you get Ling speed? Whenever you're finished defending the all-in?
forgot to ask this with my previous post >.<
yeah I get ling speed just when i feel i can spare 100 minerals/gas.
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Hi, I'm a low Platinum zerg player and I just wanted to know when and in what situations you guys put down a roach warren in all three matchups. I don't really like them but there are, of course, situations in which they are very good.
Sorry if the question is too broad ><
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Never underestimate a good spine on top or ramp when enemy goes for heavy pressure or all-ins!
Sometimes the terran puts up a bunker between your ramp and expo, to force you to cancel the hatch, and make it hard to counter pressure/kill incoming reinforcements.
Just put up a spine that reaches the bunker from the main (assuming you have high ground on main) and let it kill the bunker.
DO NOT let him get vision of the top of the ramp.
And spread creep!
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So I recently switched to zerg, and the wiki has only old builds that aren't appealing, what are some good strategies vs Protoss and in ZvZ?
In ZvP, should I do Roach/Infestor, or is ling/bling/infestor a better idea with my terrible zerg mechanics?
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I'm having TERRIBLE problems vs Protoss at the moment. I've been trying to hammer out the Nestea-style ridiculous droning, but I always lose to wonky timings such as 2base blink allin or 2base zealot archon. Am I overdroning or am I just not playing well? (I've seen people like Losira hold off this bullshit with waaaaay more drones than I have :\)
Additionally, I played this really really wonky game vs a Protoss who turtled and went mass mass void ray with Leg speed and archons. What on earth is this and what do I do? Do I actually have to get Hydras or should I have been more aggressive about pressuring his third? (I think this is what happened. Without pressuring the third he pretty much maxed and 1a'd me :\).
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On August 06 2011 11:50 Farkinator wrote:
I'm having TERRIBLE problems vs Protoss at the moment. I've been trying to hammer out the Nestea-style ridiculous droning, but I always lose to wonky timings such as 2base blink allin or 2base zealot archon. Am I overdroning or am I just not playing well? (I've seen people like Losira hold off this bullshit with waaaaay more drones than I have :\)
Additionally, I played this really really wonky game vs a Protoss who turtled and went mass mass void ray with Leg speed and archons. What on earth is this and what do I do? Do I actually have to get Hydras or should I have been more aggressive about pressuring his third? (I think this is what happened. Without pressuring the third he pretty much maxed and 1a'd me :\).
Your first problem is scouting, did you know what he was doing before it attacked you? If not then consider sacking an overlord around 6 minutes, always having a ling on every Xel'Naga, a ling on any bases he hasn't taken yet, a ling ready to see if he pushes out, and lings to run in and see what he has. Once you have lair, do you have an overseer? If so, then use changelings, feel free to fly them into a corner of his base and drop them, they are much sneakier that way and get as much scouting as you can.
If you are looking to crush Protoss players by having more economy than them you are mainly looking to survive with as little waste as you can, so you can optimally drone up. Basically you just want to 'test the waters' so to speak and check up on his army with scouting and gauge your army accordingly and deny him from expanding whilst expanding yourself.
Now, to assess your more specific problem: If someone turtles and goes mass voidray, chargelots + archons, then you should have scouted it before he has too much of a ball. Since he is turtling he should be on controlling his economy and trying to stick him to 2 bases, but 3 is fine also, because any more bases he takes delays his push, as well as upgrades and larger sized army. You have COMPLETE map control if he turtles, every base is yours, so take them like the king you are!!!
As for direct unit compositions, you can just go roach/hydra/infestor and counter that, or go for hive and get corruptor/blord.
If you scout him going mass blink stalkers, upgraded slings are the way to go, you can even throw in infestors and hydras for added pain.
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EPT
