EPTand against toss, how does one deal with mass stalkers/immortals/colossi? with a few sentries here and there. Whenever toss gets a good amount of colossi, its really difficult to take toss on.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 68
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MiyaviTeddy
Canada697 Posts
and against toss, how does one deal with mass stalkers/immortals/colossi? with a few sentries here and there. Whenever toss gets a good amount of colossi, its really difficult to take toss on. | ||
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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
1. Unit compositions in ZvP - I have been using infestor ling, however I find even when my opponent gets tons of colossi and uses FF well, I cant really get the NP off. Also if they go archon, zealot, ht etc, I just get raped. I hear 2 camps, people saying infestor ling is the way to go, and others saying it is weak because the protoss can just scout you and counter you so well which is true for good players. So I really must ask, what is the current meta game composition? I know you should react to what you see, but is there a basic composition that zergs are using against protoss that works well in a variety of situations? 2. ZvZ early game. - I go 14/14 every game into speedling baneling. The thing is I just keep pumping lings and pretty much make it an all in every game even though I'm not really trying. So if my opponent defends well with roaches then I'm behind and expand. My question is if your going 14/14 I dont know how to not go into baneling wars. For example if I just want to get a few speedlings out and macro, do I just watch my opponents speedling count and adjust? And if I scout banelings do I just throw up a baneling nest myself? I just dont really know what hte natural progression is for ZvZ from the early game into the mid game of roach infestor Any help would be great | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
On August 04 2011 03:40 Chinesewonder wrote: Two things that are really holding me back are 1. Unit compositions in ZvP - I have been using infestor ling, however I find even when my opponent gets tons of colossi and uses FF well, I cant really get the NP off. Also if they go archon, zealot, ht etc, I just get raped. I hear 2 camps, people saying infestor ling is the way to go, and others saying it is weak because the protoss can just scout you and counter you so well which is true for good players. So I really must ask, what is the current meta game composition? I know you should react to what you see, but is there a basic composition that zergs are using against protoss that works well in a variety of situations? There is 3 school: Destiny's: 11 pool to ling/infestors later ultras Morrow's: 14/14 into masslings with banelings drops EU/NA: 14/14 to ling/Roache with later infestors and brood I don't know whats the best one, but there is definatly more QQs from protoss about the EU/NA way, at least on EU and NA servers. On August 04 2011 03:40 Chinesewonder wrote: 2. ZvZ early game. - I go 14/14 every game into speedling baneling. The thing is I just keep pumping lings and pretty much make it an all in every game even though I'm not really trying. So if my opponent defends well with roaches then I'm behind and expand. My question is if your going 14/14 I dont know how to not go into baneling wars. For example if I just want to get a few speedlings out and macro, do I just watch my opponents speedling count and adjust? And if I scout banelings do I just throw up a baneling nest myself? I just dont really know what hte natural progression is for ZvZ from the early game into the mid game of roach infestor Any help would be great Hummm go read page 48, I think it was hawk who gives a good ZvZ build order which is safe against 14 banelings and pretty macro style! The only thing you need to be afraid is against mass speed lings! :D | ||
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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
On August 04 2011 04:04 Konsume wrote: There is 3 school: Destiny's: 11 pool to ling/infestors later ultras Morrow's: 14/14 into masslings with banelings drops EU/NA: 14/14 to ling/Roache with later infestors and brood I don't know whats the best one, but there is definatly more QQs from protoss about the EU/NA way, at least on EU and NA servers. Hummm go read page 48, I think it was hawk who gives a good ZvZ build order which is safe against 14 banelings and pretty macro style! The only thing you need to be afraid is against mass speed lings! :D Thanks for the reply. For some reason ling roach infestor doesn't really fly well with me, I must be doing it wrong. How many roaches do you want to be getting? It always seems even if I have 10 infestors and ~ 30 roach I get rofl stomped by force field and colossus. Also if they go voids then I'm really lost. | ||
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thane
United States407 Posts
On August 04 2011 02:43 sirnaber wrote: thank you very much for the answer, I guess I'm looking for a simple indicator that I'm on the right track, but that doesn't really exist =) still, after watching some replays I see that I'm at 50 supply at the 10 minute mark which seems plain wrong. anyway, thanks again for the advice. 50 supply at 10 minutes?!?! I would say that unhindered on 2 bases you could be about 140ish at 10 minutes. Make sure you always have your injects going and as much as people don't like it you need to spam some. 4s 4s 4s 4s 4sdddd 4srrrr 4sv v etc. 4 being hatchery  . The spamming keeps you in rhythm to remember things like overlords so you don't supply block.I true 100% always accurate supply count really doesn't exist though because Zerg is built to bend and flex so when your opponent does X you should be able to take advantage. | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
On August 04 2011 04:22 Chinesewonder wrote: Thanks for the reply. For some reason ling roach infestor doesn't really fly well with me, I must be doing it wrong. How many roaches do you want to be getting? It always seems even if I have 10 infestors and ~ 30 roach I get rofl stomped by force field and colossus. Also if they go voids then I'm really lost. It's probably HOW you engage/control that makes you lose. Here I did a fast paint image of what you should do!! ![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/24/splitl.jpg/) This way... most forcefield wont block anything, in the case it does... just go back and... make them spend important ennergy on their sentries and go back in when they're out of FF :D as for the ammount, id say you want 15% army value worth of lings 60% army value worth of roaches 25% army value worth of infestors | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On August 04 2011 04:04 Konsume wrote: There is 3 school: Destiny's: 11 pool to ling/infestors later ultras Morrow's: 14/14 into masslings with banelings drops EU/NA: 14/14 to ling/Roache with later infestors and brood I don't know whats the best one, but there is definatly more QQs from protoss about the EU/NA way, at least on EU and NA servers. I've been using Morrow's zerglin/baneling style with great success in the gold and platinum ladder (sitting at 70% win rate). Part of this may be due to the fact that lower level tosses don't know how to deal with this. The most usual responses are (1) blindly building an anti-roach army of sentry/stalker/colossus/maybe a few immortals or (2) Mass zealot/colossus/sentry. This strategy stomps both of them. I have a number of his zvp replays from mlg colombus where he goes 15 hatch in some and 14/14 in others. I've had some issues against protoss who expand aggressively expand, add DT's to their army composition, and get lots of HT/archons. I usually transition into infestors and either ultras or broods (depending on my opponents composition of choice). Has anyone else playing this style run into styles of play that handle this well? | ||
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Konsume
Canada466 Posts
On August 04 2011 05:26 Servius_Fulvius wrote: Has anyone else playing this style run into styles of play that handle this well? It also works against Master protoss. But: Protoss that splits will actualy trade in their favor And stalkers+blink micro is VERRY good against it! besides that... it's pretty good :D | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
On August 04 2011 04:04 Konsume wrote: There is 3 school: Destiny's: 11 pool to ling/infestors later ultras Morrow's: 14/14 into masslings with banelings drops EU/NA: 14/14 to ling/Roache with later infestors and brood I don't know whats the best one, but there is definatly more QQs from protoss about the EU/NA way, at least on EU and NA servers. You should probably add a 4th school which is the IM school. The three hatch 1 gas opening, where you get your roach warren and evo chamber for defense and for +1 ling attack. And then you get your third really quickly and drone like crazy. It's not uncommon for me to see them delay making an army till they hit 70 drones. In the mid game you're really active with your +1 lings, countering, poking, and you transition into +1 mutas, or bling drops, or anything really. I think that counts... even though it works best vs FFE openings (Specifically MC's FFE stargate opening), and on maps with a near third that doesn't have destructible rocks. I also see ret do this style a lot. | ||
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macaronij
Argentina67 Posts
stop droning around 30 drones, make slings+1, stop 4 gate or delay expand tech bane and spire, +2 melee /+1caparace corruptor if phoenix or colossus, if not, mutas i had some succes but if toss go charge+archon+ht i have serius problem My question is want to know if i can transition roaches if i need them in mid game, because i will have no +1 range, no speed, etc... Also what is better agains that composition in tier 3 (brood or ultra) | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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thane
United States407 Posts
On August 05 2011 03:55 KimJongChill wrote: How do you guys deal with mass marine/medivac with fast upgrades? Should I be getting hive tech against this composition? Should I choose mutas, since this style favors heavy drops, and since the mass medivacs heal fungal damage very, very fast? What about ling/bling as opposed to ling/infestor? Anything with lots of marines makes me get banelings. Since you say "fast" how fast is fast? fast marines with stim and or +1 would still make me do the same thing. lots of lings and banelings. I also get +1 melee and carapace asap at or as close to lair starting as possible. I do not get mutas until I am on 3 bases because I feel you can stop marines good enough with ling bane. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On August 05 2011 03:55 KimJongChill wrote: How do you guys deal with mass marine/medivac with fast upgrades? Should I be getting hive tech against this composition? Should I choose mutas, since this style favors heavy drops, and since the mass medivacs heal fungal damage very, very fast? What about ling/bling as opposed to ling/infestor? spread creep asap with extra queens. when you see him poke onto the creep with mass marines have all your ling bling in one control group and click behind the marines. the lings will surround preventing marines from microing too much and the blings which are slightly slower will come in and blow up all the marines. being on creep is the real key here as marines cant micro against blings on creep. my typical zvt i go ling bling and then when i take my third i start making hydras, like 25 of them, rest ling bling. i havent lost to terran on the ladder in 2 weeks, high diamond atm. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 05 2011 03:55 KimJongChill wrote: How do you guys deal with mass marine/medivac with fast upgrades? Should I be getting hive tech against this composition? Should I choose mutas, since this style favors heavy drops, and since the mass medivacs heal fungal damage very, very fast? What about ling/bling as opposed to ling/infestor? muta/ling/bane. Get 2 evo's once i have 6 gas established and double upgrade. imo muta/ling/bane is still better then ling/infestor zvt, because if the terran you play is smart he'll mass drop you which ling/infestor can deal with but still a lot more pain in the ass, and if your way out of position it can cause alot more damage then if you had muta's. But yes in general muta/ling/bane and getting double upgrades after getting 6 gas is what i would do. | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
I'm sounding vague, but would someone mind going through a typical 15 Hatch, 15 Pool, 17 (or is it 18) Gas Roach Opening vs 14/14 Speedlings (usually all-in) scenario, a 15 Hatch, 16 Gas, 15 Pool vs 14/14 Speedling/Baneling (not necessarily all-in) scenario, what openings are good for what maps, and any triggers/timings to go by to get a Lair and a third. Thanks in advance to all who help. edit: To clarify, I'm not talking about early pools (6-11 Pools), I'm talking about the all-ins that come later. | ||
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evilduky666
United States101 Posts
On August 04 2011 05:15 Konsume wrote: It's probably HOW you engage/control that makes you lose. Here I did a fast paint image of what you should do!! This way... most forcefield wont block anything, in the case it does... just go back and... make them spend important ennergy on their sentries and go back in when they're out of FF :D as for the ammount, id say you want 15% army value worth of lings 60% army value worth of roaches 25% army value worth of infestors Love the use of pictures, this was very helpful. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 05 2011 11:17 Whole wrote: I'm having problems with the early game of ZvZ. I like to go 15 Hatch and either follow up with 15 Pool 17 Gas into Roaches or 16 Gas 15 Pool into Banelings depending on the map. But I often lose to a 14/14 Pure Speedling all-in. The problem is usually with my FE getting killed and I basically lose fighting an uphill battle. I'm sounding vague, but would someone mind going through a typical 15 Hatch, 15 Pool, 17 (or is it 18) Gas Roach Opening vs 14/14 Speedlings (usually all-in) scenario, a 15 Hatch, 16 Gas, 15 Pool vs 14/14 Speedling/Baneling (not necessarily all-in) scenario, what openings are good for what maps, and any triggers/timings to go by to get a Lair and a third. Thanks in advance to all who help. edit: To clarify, I'm not talking about early pools (6-11 Pools), I'm talking about the all-ins that come later. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583 A guide I wrote for this specifically due to people calling it not possible. Also you should be scouting to look at his drone count at his natural with an overlord, this is huge to see if he's all in ling. If he doesn't take an expansion, you should be making more units then drones, because he is probably all inning. to me it sounds like you are probably droning blindly which is always a gamble in zvz. to check drone count in zvz, you should always have an overlord behind his natural so that you can just poke up and see how many drones he has at his natural. If he has very few or none, you should be preparing for an all in. | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
It seems like a big problem I was having was droning too much at around the 21-22 supply mark where you say to get an Overlord and save for the Roaches. Usually, I'd end up short on resources and just only get out a few Roaches and they were too late. But can you do the Roach build on every map? It seems that on Xel'Naga and maps with similar naturals, that the lings would get a surround too easily. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 05 2011 11:59 Whole wrote: Thank you so much! I remember that guide, but I forgot about it today. >_< It seems like a big problem I was having was droning too much at around the 21-22 supply mark where you say to get an Overlord and save for the Roaches. Usually, I'd end up short on resources and just only get out a few Roaches and they were too late. But can you do the Roach build on every map? It seems that on Xel'Naga and maps with similar naturals, that the lings would get a surround too easily. yes you can do it on every map. You should have ling support so that he can't just surround them and win. You should also be trying not to engage in an open area where he can get a surround. | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
forgot to ask this with my previous post >.< | ||
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