EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 67
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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AustinCM
Canada275 Posts
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kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
On August 03 2011 06:48 AustinCM wrote: why did you guys skip my question?! :O They skipped my question too and it was better than yours  | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 03 2011 05:00 AustinCM wrote: what is the proper response to reactor hellion openings? I usually just get my 3rd queen to block my ramp and 2 spines in my nat but it's impossible to scout if they are getting blue flame and if they are dropping not only that but sometimes I will think im safe to continue on my ling tech and drone but they role in with like 12-14 hellions and just straight up burn my queen. Anyways do I have to get roaches against hellion openers now? and if they don't follow through with hellions and i overreact (cuz i can't scout, lair tech scouting ftw...) they just do a 2 base rine tank push it's bleh... If they made 12-14 hellions, then that's probably all they have and nothing else. This means that if you went for a standard 2 base mutalisk timing, then as long as you survive then your mutalisks will probably do even more damage. I mean, you can lose half your drones and be fine, because the terran just doesn't have anything behind it, and won't have a solid army to push with for a long time. I always build a blind roach warren against terran because of this threat, even if more than half the time I don't ever make roaches that game. If you scout a hellion opener you should think about building placement to restrict territory, use an evo chamber (you'll need this to prepare for a banshee follow up anyway) spine crawlers, and the roach warran in a way the diminishes the number of angles the hellions can come in from. Building more queens is also rarely ever a bad idea, I've actually set it as a rule for myself that I must have 4 queens out before lair unless my opponent went 2rax into expand. If you went for a fast third sitting on tier one, then you already have roaches out so a counter attack should just kill your opponent. edit: On August 03 2011 06:48 AustinCM wrote: why did you guys skip my question?! :O haha! I was answering your question, got distracted with something else then I saw the wall of text I had already typed up was still open, so I managed to finish it like half an hour after I started. Sorry! | ||
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AustinCM
Canada275 Posts
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 03 2011 03:21 kushm4sta wrote: There is a lot of talk about how to stop 4 gates, but what I find particularly difficult is the 4 gate blink. Even if I know it's coming for me it is totally impossible to stop. (this is at high diamond low masters level). If i build spines, which I guess is viable on maps with a natural choke, he kills 1 spine at a time then retreats. By the time all my spines are gone his stalker ball is so big that it easily owns my roach/ling or all ling force. If i go mass ling protoss waits until the stalker number is big enough so the surface area is no longer favorable for lings and they die. For the mass ling to work I feel like I need to get lucky and catch the stalkers in a bad position before they reach a mass. If I go roach ling with no spines it seems like I just cant get enough in time. Maybe my problem is balancing army with drones? I try to get like 30 drones. So my question in summary is what is the easiest way to deal with 4 gate blink stalker? Ling or roach ling? Spine or no spine? How many drones? Upgrades yes or no? Optimally against a 4 gate you should only have about 22 drones, so I think scouting is a big issue here. As for what units to use, pumping mass speedling should be fine, just don't let the numbers get big enough to matter. You should always know where the proxy is, and because you should be in a dominating position as soon as the warp-ins start because of how the melee vs ranged dynamic works, you should be able to either kill the protoss army outright or force the stalkers to retreat and snipe the pylon. Of course, for more specific advice I'd need to see a replay to look for thing like: supply blocks not being active enough with the initial speedlings not keeping the scouting drone alive long enough lack of efficiency with spending larva (I.e. letting larva build up before spending it all at once, this lowers the amount of larva you have in the long run because the hatchery will stop producing if 3 or more are already on the hatch) missing injects, etc. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 03 2011 06:53 AustinCM wrote: so are roaches neccessary vs hellion builds? It depends how much the terran commits to it really, if your opponent went for some kind of mass hellion opener like what you have been having trouble with, then yes, roaches are necessary. If it was a light hellion pressure with anything else as a follow up, then roaches would just delay your lair tech. | ||
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Rylaji
Sweden580 Posts
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TheLast
Germany59 Posts
15 Hatch/14 Pool is another option, but be prepared to face 2Rax, Baneling Allins. Versus Protoss I wouldnt recommend it, better 11/18 or 14 gas/14 pool. If you want a macro game and can read your opponent pretty good Id recommend 15 hatch/ 14 pool. Safer but less economical would be 11 pool/ 18 hatch. | ||
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AustinCM
Canada275 Posts
On August 03 2011 06:59 Soluhwin wrote: It depends how much the terran commits to it really, if your opponent went for some kind of mass hellion opener like what you have been having trouble with, then yes, roaches are necessary. If it was a light hellion pressure with anything else as a follow up, then roaches would just delay your lair tech. But this is my problem, whoever answered me must of misunderstood my question. You can't tell whether they are committing to hellions or not or whether they are going to drop your main. so I never know when to tech roaches. | ||
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dave333
United States915 Posts
On August 03 2011 06:53 AustinCM wrote: so are roaches neccessary vs hellion builds? I would plan on getting roaches every game if you see hellions, as it's incredibly easy to just mess your defense up a little and then basically lose the game. If your scouting gets denied and you miss a mass hellion attack, or you accidentally let lings get fried or hellions to get past queens, etc. you can easily lose the game. Roaches can give you peace of mind; not to mention along with banelings/speedlings they are good against a lot of rine/tank pushes that hit around 10 minutes. | ||
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jackdaleaper
Philippines1216 Posts
On August 03 2011 13:00 dave333 wrote: I would plan on getting roaches every game if you see hellions, as it's incredibly easy to just mess your defense up a little and then basically lose the game. If your scouting gets denied and you miss a mass hellion attack, or you accidentally let lings get fried or hellions to get past queens, etc. you can easily lose the game. Roaches can give you peace of mind; not to mention along with banelings/speedlings they are good against a lot of rine/tank pushes that hit around 10 minutes. This is what I've started doing lately after seeing Sheth do it in some of his ZvT's. I always 15 hatch vs Terran and when I scout a refinery in the T's base (or sometimes even if I just don't see 2 rax on the ramp if I got there late) I open up with roaches and get 4-5 roaches before ling speed and rally them to my opponent's ramp. Then get another 100 gas, take drones of extractor while getting ling speed and drone like crazy while pressuring with roaches. It usually catches the other guy off guard especially if they went for banshees or some sort of hellion expand. I snipe off a few SCV's and marines while delaying their expo and usually forcing them to get some tech they didn't plan on getting early. If I see that he has enough marauders/banshees out I back off and go home. The only thing that causes me problems when I do this is if he rushed siege tech but I usually get my drone in since I scout at 9 and if I see a refinery I almost always gas steal which delays siege tech enough for me to prepare against it. | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
1. how to stop 11 rax 11 rax. what's -actually- safe vs this? In my games when the korean terran scouts me going 14 gas 14 pool he will pull 90% of his scvs and completely crush me anyways. Alternatively he will pull 5-6 and when combined with the marines he's mad, will be enough to make it so i cant engage him, delaying my expo and allowing him to bunker my ramp if he doesn't waste any time. When I hatch first nothing really works out well at all, you have to pull drones and you can't really do any damage with them unless he mismicros. 2. 1 base blink stalker on xel naga caverns specifically. I lose to this very often and find it incredibly silly to stop. Lots of entrances to your natural + blink = spines aren't as effective as they need to be, and access to a low ground that they can blink back to = stalkers should never ever die while your units do. i'm a zerg player. thanks for any tips/tricks ps. didnt see this thread when i posted in the simple questions topic, this thread seems to be more appropriate. | ||
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M1cha84
Germany64 Posts
I once saw that in ladder against me and i just build 3 spines in my main, while i let my natural die and build only lings and started baneling nest. I could defend the push and was pretty much ahead because of a full base eco against, like what 6 SCVs? | ||
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Mikah
Finland230 Posts
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-Dustin-
United States718 Posts
On August 03 2011 07:58 Rylaji wrote: I am switching to Z for this season most prolly and could someone give me 1 safe opening vs each race for a Silver lvl player? In ZvP I like to go 14/14 get early speed and Lings to deny cannons and get my expo about 18ish, As someone else said 11/18 is also very safe. ZvT I'm not sure if 14/14 is safer than 15 Hatch but if you do not FE be sure to patrol a Drone on the bottom of your ramp so you don't get bunker walled in but I preffer 15 Hatch/14 Pool or 14 Hatch/14 Pool. But also 11/18 is pretty much safest for all matchups. ZvZ 14/14 is pretty standard and safe 14 at about 80ish minerals get 1 gas make a drone and 14 pool 1 more drone till 15 make a Ovie and wait for Pool to finish you get Lings a Queen and speed as soon as pool pops, Then you either Expand at 21 or throw down a Baneling nest. | ||
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ETisME
12478 Posts
On August 03 2011 07:58 Rylaji wrote: I am switching to Z for this season most prolly and could someone give me 1 safe opening vs each race for a Silver lvl player? versus T: 15 pool 15 hatch 14 gas versus P: 11over pool 18 hatch versus Z: 11 overpool with one spine in mineral line (be reactive after this) | ||
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thane
United States407 Posts
On August 03 2011 18:38 Let it Raine wrote: hey guys, two quick questions on responses to certain early game builds. 1. how to stop 11 rax 11 rax. what's -actually- safe vs this? In my games when the korean terran scouts me going 14 gas 14 pool he will pull 90% of his scvs and completely crush me anyways. Alternatively he will pull 5-6 and when combined with the marines he's mad, will be enough to make it so i cant engage him, delaying my expo and allowing him to bunker my ramp if he doesn't waste any time. When I hatch first nothing really works out well at all, you have to pull drones and you can't really do any damage with them unless he mismicros. 2. 1 base blink stalker on xel naga caverns specifically. I lose to this very often and find it incredibly silly to stop. Lots of entrances to your natural + blink = spines aren't as effective as they need to be, and access to a low ground that they can blink back to = stalkers should never ever die while your units do. i'm a zerg player. thanks for any tips/tricks ps. didnt see this thread when i posted in the simple questions topic, this thread seems to be more appropriate. The first question I dont have an answer to other than I always fast expand ZvT and get a spine up once the expo finishes. I honestly have never looked at games to see if they were 11/11 or 14/14 but I understand its a big difference. But I go 14 expand 14 hatch 14 gas, get speed, pull off gas, then go for 16/16 saturation at both bases. The second question Xel Naga is very close to being on my veto list. Its next to impossible to get a third base and there is lots of space for people to do blink harass and things like that. Depending on his make up you could go for the surround and get banelings if its pure blink stalkers. You could get fast roach speed and go speedling roach. You could also try faster infestors. If it were me I would be going speedling roach and surrounding. Unit comp means alot here because this may be one of the few comps where you can get away with a few hydras simply because of the range. Lastly if you know its blink dont put any tech close to the edge make him come in to get the harass he wants so you can get a good surround and hopefully get a few kills. | ||
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sirnaber
Turkey4 Posts
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On August 04 2011 02:21 sirnaber wrote: this might seem like a vague question, but I'm having some macro problems and I'm looking for the optimal amount of supply at a given time-mark. supposing it is a standard macro game, what should be the average supply count at 5-10-15 minutes for a zerg? if I had the timing worked out I believe I can focus on trying to improve my macro. It is a vague question. Unfortunately what you're asking is a specific answer to a very general question and I'm afraid it doesn't exist. The timestamps you're looking for would change based on a number of in-game scenarios like what race you are playing against, what unit composition you are going for, and how much pressure you and your opponent are trying to exert on one another. The games where there is no interaction between players for the first 15 minutes are few and far between, and honestly you shouldn't practice with them in mind. Any Gold level player can macro off of 3-4 bases and max out if their opponent lets them. Doing it while being pressured, actively scouting, denying expansions, and maneuvering around his army is something else entirely. I would suggest looking through your own replays of games you lost and felt like you were outmacro'd. Keep the units or income tab open the whole game and look for key moments where you didn't Drone and ask yourself why. If your opponent had cut workers and was prepping to push you, it was probably a good idea. If he continued to produce workers and there was no threat to you, it was probably a bad idea. Look for trends and see if there is a point in the game where you always felt unsafe even though you were fine. Improving your scouting will help here as well. If that's not the issue and you're flat out getting outmacro'd even though you're trying your best at injects/not getting supply blocked/etc., it's probably a handspeed thing. That just takes practice and experience. | ||
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sirnaber
Turkey4 Posts
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