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On August 02 2011 01:50 galtdunn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2011 00:53 halcy1 wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm a low level player on EU who recently got promoted to silver. I'm now having problems with ZvP which wasn't apparent in bronze. I do very well in the ZvZ matchup and pretty good in ZvT. In ZvZ it's because I feel quite confident, because I know my own race well and can out-macro and out-micro other zergs at my level.
ZvT feels tricky at times if they do early timing attacks, although by no means do I give free wins, I can usually win if I survive past a certain point.
Now ZvP is where I come up really short. Any kind of 4 gate pressure will make me lose; they always build a proxy pylon and are able to reinforce right at my natural exp. Usually pure stalker or mixed stalker zealot sentry with forcefields to split my roaches off. I can't even give chase without lair plus roach speed which means it's nearly impossible to obliterate their broken forces when they retreat.
Even still I can usually break off the 4gate siege and kill their army and proxy. But by then they've been on 2 bases for awhile and I only then am able to expand myself. This means that within 5 minutes there's a huge deathball army with colossus and possibly even immortals. At that point I've been droning hard to have any chance of catching up, and have only a small army of much lower value.
I'm not sure how I can progress when winning ZvP feels such a formidable task. I'd say at least 75% protoss will 4-gate me and sentries nullify any early roach aggression from me. Any advice that could help me back on track to my goal of becoming gold? I've currently resorted to 6 pooling every single protoss I meet because I cannot win legitimately. It's almost 100% win, but I know it won't be viable at higher levels and I'm only further delaying my progress this way. I guess this is a common problem for zergs in silver, and that's why protoss always 4gate.. Well if you hold off a 4 gate they should not have an expansion running. If they 4 gate correctly they will be broke, whether you hold it off or not. If you scout it (overlord~6 mins should do it), throw down 2-3 spines and make roaches and lings. your roach warren should go down around 27 food. Once they start attacking, make all the lings, roaches that you can afford, because if you beat it without losing your expansion, it's your game to lose. The key to defending is to not overextend, let the protoss attack into your spine crawlers and pick him off then, go for a surround if you have enough lings. Also, queens are great damage absorbers.
Overlord at 6 minutes shouldn't do it at all. A properly executed 4 gate should be HITTING your base at 6 minutes. Since spine crawlers take 50 seconds to build, if the protoss is attacking your base at near 7 minute mark, you can't even call that a 4-gate anymore.
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I'm afraid this is kind of a dumb question as the BO should be map-dependent. As I still strive to get from Silver to Gold, I like however practice just one BO per match-up to get mechanical practice, a feeling for timing and also a good understanding of its pros and cons through experience.
Can I play 15H14P in ZvZ without having the nickname "ret"? Do I autolose to early pools?
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On August 02 2011 05:33 [F_]aths wrote:
I'm afraid this is kind of a dumb question as the BO should be map-dependent. As I still strive to get from Silver to Gold, I like however practice just one BO per match-up to get mechanical practice, a feeling for timing and also a good understanding of its pros and cons through experience.
Can I play 15H14P in ZvZ without having the nickname "ret"? Do I autolose to early pools?
According to many a TLer, 15 hatch holds against any early pool.
there are threads and such about Zerg openings that you should look into, search "zerg openings" in the search bar.
However, it's all preference. I prefer a 15 pool opening in ZvZ on almost all maps and ZvT on smaller maps. Choose whatever fits with your style.
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On August 02 2011 04:59 galtdunn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 04:42 jhk0219 wrote:On August 02 2011 01:50 galtdunn wrote:On July 31 2011 00:53 halcy1 wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm a low level player on EU who recently got promoted to silver. I'm now having problems with ZvP which wasn't apparent in bronze. I do very well in the ZvZ matchup and pretty good in ZvT. In ZvZ it's because I feel quite confident, because I know my own race well and can out-macro and out-micro other zergs at my level.
ZvT feels tricky at times if they do early timing attacks, although by no means do I give free wins, I can usually win if I survive past a certain point.
Now ZvP is where I come up really short. Any kind of 4 gate pressure will make me lose; they always build a proxy pylon and are able to reinforce right at my natural exp. Usually pure stalker or mixed stalker zealot sentry with forcefields to split my roaches off. I can't even give chase without lair plus roach speed which means it's nearly impossible to obliterate their broken forces when they retreat.
Even still I can usually break off the 4gate siege and kill their army and proxy. But by then they've been on 2 bases for awhile and I only then am able to expand myself. This means that within 5 minutes there's a huge deathball army with colossus and possibly even immortals. At that point I've been droning hard to have any chance of catching up, and have only a small army of much lower value.
I'm not sure how I can progress when winning ZvP feels such a formidable task. I'd say at least 75% protoss will 4-gate me and sentries nullify any early roach aggression from me. Any advice that could help me back on track to my goal of becoming gold? I've currently resorted to 6 pooling every single protoss I meet because I cannot win legitimately. It's almost 100% win, but I know it won't be viable at higher levels and I'm only further delaying my progress this way. I guess this is a common problem for zergs in silver, and that's why protoss always 4gate.. Well if you hold off a 4 gate they should not have an expansion running. If they 4 gate correctly they will be broke, whether you hold it off or not. If you scout it (overlord~6 mins should do it), throw down 2-3 spines and make roaches and lings. your roach warren should go down around 27 food. Once they start attacking, make all the lings, roaches that you can afford, because if you beat it without losing your expansion, it's your game to lose. The key to defending is to not overextend, let the protoss attack into your spine crawlers and pick him off then, go for a surround if you have enough lings. Also, queens are great damage absorbers. Overlord at 6 minutes shouldn't do it at all. A properly executed 4 gate should be HITTING your base at 6 minutes. Since spine crawlers take 50 seconds to build, if the protoss is attacking your base at near 7 minute mark, you can't even call that a 4-gate anymore. He's in silver league, I'd like to see a good 4 gate hit him at anything before 6:45. A 4 gate is a 4 gate no matter what time it hits, as long as he just builds 4 gateways and attacks you. The timing is just what makes it a good or bad 4 gate.
Just because he's in a lower league, it doesn't mean you should teach him bad habits. I've seen a ton of players carry over wrong timings, bad habits/mechanics, and understanding as they progress up the ranks. If anything, you should teach him to scout at the correct timing and tell him to deduce what the opponent will do based on what he sees.
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On August 02 2011 05:33 [F_]aths wrote:
I'm afraid this is kind of a dumb question as the BO should be map-dependent. As I still strive to get from Silver to Gold, I like however practice just one BO per match-up to get mechanical practice, a feeling for timing and also a good understanding of its pros and cons through experience.
Can I play 15H14P in ZvZ without having the nickname "ret"? Do I autolose to early pools?
I don't know how high rated the guy above me is, but 15 hatch shouldn't hold 8-9 pools. If the enemy zerg has any concept of micro, you won't be able to defend that. It can hold 10pool speedling, but you need to have solid micro.
15hatch is ok, because it does well against the most standard opening which is 14g/14p. Hatch first builds depend on the map more than anything. If you watch Nestea play ZvZ (he has one of the highest win-loss ratio for ZvZ), he switches up openings based on maps and more often opts for the safer ones like 14g/14p or 13pool.
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On August 02 2011 05:42 jhk0219 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 05:33 [F_]aths wrote:
I'm afraid this is kind of a dumb question as the BO should be map-dependent. As I still strive to get from Silver to Gold, I like however practice just one BO per match-up to get mechanical practice, a feeling for timing and also a good understanding of its pros and cons through experience.
Can I play 15H14P in ZvZ without having the nickname "ret"? Do I autolose to early pools? I don't know how high rated the guy above me is, but 15 hatch shouldn't hold 8-9 pools. If the enemy zerg has any concept of micro, you won't be able to defend that. It can hold 10pool speedling, but you need to have solid micro. 15hatch is ok, because it does well against the most standard opening which is 14g/14p. Hatch first builds depend on the map more than anything. If you watch Nestea play ZvZ (he has one of the highest win-loss ratio for ZvZ), he switches up openings based on maps and more often opts for the safer ones like 14g/14p or 13pool.
Well like I said its not me, its other TLers. Go read a forum about 15 pool vs 14/14 and see what people say.
But following Nestea's example is always a good decision.
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On August 02 2011 05:51 galtdunn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 05:42 jhk0219 wrote:On August 02 2011 05:33 [F_]aths wrote:
I'm afraid this is kind of a dumb question as the BO should be map-dependent. As I still strive to get from Silver to Gold, I like however practice just one BO per match-up to get mechanical practice, a feeling for timing and also a good understanding of its pros and cons through experience.
Can I play 15H14P in ZvZ without having the nickname "ret"? Do I autolose to early pools? I don't know how high rated the guy above me is, but 15 hatch shouldn't hold 8-9 pools. If the enemy zerg has any concept of micro, you won't be able to defend that. It can hold 10pool speedling, but you need to have solid micro. 15hatch is ok, because it does well against the most standard opening which is 14g/14p. Hatch first builds depend on the map more than anything. If you watch Nestea play ZvZ (he has one of the highest win-loss ratio for ZvZ), he switches up openings based on maps and more often opts for the safer ones like 14g/14p or 13pool. Well like I said its not me, its other TLers. Go read a forum about 15 pool vs 14/14 and see what people say. But following Nestea's example is always a good decision.
I'm pretty sure you're not reading my posts correctly.
I said that 15 hatch holds well against 14g/14p. You stated that "According to many a TLer, 15 hatch holds against any early pool." I'd like to see a legitimate TL post arguing that 15 hatch is holds well against 8-9 pool.
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On August 02 2011 05:54 galtdunn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 05:40 jhk0219 wrote:On August 02 2011 04:59 galtdunn wrote:On August 02 2011 04:42 jhk0219 wrote:On August 02 2011 01:50 galtdunn wrote:On July 31 2011 00:53 halcy1 wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm a low level player on EU who recently got promoted to silver. I'm now having problems with ZvP which wasn't apparent in bronze. I do very well in the ZvZ matchup and pretty good in ZvT. In ZvZ it's because I feel quite confident, because I know my own race well and can out-macro and out-micro other zergs at my level.
ZvT feels tricky at times if they do early timing attacks, although by no means do I give free wins, I can usually win if I survive past a certain point.
Now ZvP is where I come up really short. Any kind of 4 gate pressure will make me lose; they always build a proxy pylon and are able to reinforce right at my natural exp. Usually pure stalker or mixed stalker zealot sentry with forcefields to split my roaches off. I can't even give chase without lair plus roach speed which means it's nearly impossible to obliterate their broken forces when they retreat.
Even still I can usually break off the 4gate siege and kill their army and proxy. But by then they've been on 2 bases for awhile and I only then am able to expand myself. This means that within 5 minutes there's a huge deathball army with colossus and possibly even immortals. At that point I've been droning hard to have any chance of catching up, and have only a small army of much lower value.
I'm not sure how I can progress when winning ZvP feels such a formidable task. I'd say at least 75% protoss will 4-gate me and sentries nullify any early roach aggression from me. Any advice that could help me back on track to my goal of becoming gold? I've currently resorted to 6 pooling every single protoss I meet because I cannot win legitimately. It's almost 100% win, but I know it won't be viable at higher levels and I'm only further delaying my progress this way. I guess this is a common problem for zergs in silver, and that's why protoss always 4gate.. Well if you hold off a 4 gate they should not have an expansion running. If they 4 gate correctly they will be broke, whether you hold it off or not. If you scout it (overlord~6 mins should do it), throw down 2-3 spines and make roaches and lings. your roach warren should go down around 27 food. Once they start attacking, make all the lings, roaches that you can afford, because if you beat it without losing your expansion, it's your game to lose. The key to defending is to not overextend, let the protoss attack into your spine crawlers and pick him off then, go for a surround if you have enough lings. Also, queens are great damage absorbers. Overlord at 6 minutes shouldn't do it at all. A properly executed 4 gate should be HITTING your base at 6 minutes. Since spine crawlers take 50 seconds to build, if the protoss is attacking your base at near 7 minute mark, you can't even call that a 4-gate anymore. He's in silver league, I'd like to see a good 4 gate hit him at anything before 6:45. A 4 gate is a 4 gate no matter what time it hits, as long as he just builds 4 gateways and attacks you. The timing is just what makes it a good or bad 4 gate. Just because he's in a lower league, it doesn't mean you should teach him bad habits. I've seen a ton of players carry over wrong timings, bad habits/mechanics, and understanding as they progress up the ranks. If anything, you should teach him to scout at the correct timing and tell him to deduce what the opponent will do based on what he sees. Well that's obviously ideal but he should be deducing anyways, no need to be redundant. If he scouts at 6 minutes and sees 2 gateways and a third on the way and deduces a 3 gate opening, then gets hit a minute later by a badly executed 4 gate, that's not going to help him much. The habit here is scouting, not "scouting at 5:30." Deductions are from what you see. If you're scouting a 4 gate, you're looking for 4 gateways. If you don't see it, odds are he isn't doing it. End of deduction.
No. Scouting at a certain timing is important because that's the habit you need to have if you want to move up into higher ranks. If he scouts at 6 minutes and deduces 3 gate, but gets hit by a 4 gate a minute later, he should have enough units to hold this terrible "4 gate" anyway. Any all-in strategy like 4 gate depreciates in value with every second that passes by in the game. That's why professional players practice to make their builds on the ball with every building.
Scouting is cool, but what's the point of scouting if you're doing it just for the sake of scouting? It's more important to understand WHY you're scouting and WHY you're doing something rather than saying "oh the pros say scout so i will randomly run my ovie in to see what he has".
Even with a delayed 4 gate, you can see signs at 5:30 that he is going to do one. 1 Assimilator. Low sentry count. No expansion. Low probe count/halted probe production. All these things give away what he is doing.
Making your strategy based on the assumption that your opponent is bad is the fastest way to get caught up in lower levels. It's almost like saying "I won't get baneling speed since I can assume my opponent can't micro and will lose marines to my banelings." When you start to face people who can perfectly execute a 4-gate and you're still doing 6 minute scouts, you're gonna lose. If you play like you're supposed to, you shouldn't lose to 7-8minute 4gates in the first place.
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On August 02 2011 06:10 jhk0219 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 05:54 galtdunn wrote:On August 02 2011 05:40 jhk0219 wrote:On August 02 2011 04:59 galtdunn wrote:On August 02 2011 04:42 jhk0219 wrote:On August 02 2011 01:50 galtdunn wrote:On July 31 2011 00:53 halcy1 wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm a low level player on EU who recently got promoted to silver. I'm now having problems with ZvP which wasn't apparent in bronze. I do very well in the ZvZ matchup and pretty good in ZvT. In ZvZ it's because I feel quite confident, because I know my own race well and can out-macro and out-micro other zergs at my level.
ZvT feels tricky at times if they do early timing attacks, although by no means do I give free wins, I can usually win if I survive past a certain point.
Now ZvP is where I come up really short. Any kind of 4 gate pressure will make me lose; they always build a proxy pylon and are able to reinforce right at my natural exp. Usually pure stalker or mixed stalker zealot sentry with forcefields to split my roaches off. I can't even give chase without lair plus roach speed which means it's nearly impossible to obliterate their broken forces when they retreat.
Even still I can usually break off the 4gate siege and kill their army and proxy. But by then they've been on 2 bases for awhile and I only then am able to expand myself. This means that within 5 minutes there's a huge deathball army with colossus and possibly even immortals. At that point I've been droning hard to have any chance of catching up, and have only a small army of much lower value.
I'm not sure how I can progress when winning ZvP feels such a formidable task. I'd say at least 75% protoss will 4-gate me and sentries nullify any early roach aggression from me. Any advice that could help me back on track to my goal of becoming gold? I've currently resorted to 6 pooling every single protoss I meet because I cannot win legitimately. It's almost 100% win, but I know it won't be viable at higher levels and I'm only further delaying my progress this way. I guess this is a common problem for zergs in silver, and that's why protoss always 4gate.. Well if you hold off a 4 gate they should not have an expansion running. If they 4 gate correctly they will be broke, whether you hold it off or not. If you scout it (overlord~6 mins should do it), throw down 2-3 spines and make roaches and lings. your roach warren should go down around 27 food. Once they start attacking, make all the lings, roaches that you can afford, because if you beat it without losing your expansion, it's your game to lose. The key to defending is to not overextend, let the protoss attack into your spine crawlers and pick him off then, go for a surround if you have enough lings. Also, queens are great damage absorbers. Overlord at 6 minutes shouldn't do it at all. A properly executed 4 gate should be HITTING your base at 6 minutes. Since spine crawlers take 50 seconds to build, if the protoss is attacking your base at near 7 minute mark, you can't even call that a 4-gate anymore. He's in silver league, I'd like to see a good 4 gate hit him at anything before 6:45. A 4 gate is a 4 gate no matter what time it hits, as long as he just builds 4 gateways and attacks you. The timing is just what makes it a good or bad 4 gate. Just because he's in a lower league, it doesn't mean you should teach him bad habits. I've seen a ton of players carry over wrong timings, bad habits/mechanics, and understanding as they progress up the ranks. If anything, you should teach him to scout at the correct timing and tell him to deduce what the opponent will do based on what he sees. Well that's obviously ideal but he should be deducing anyways, no need to be redundant. If he scouts at 6 minutes and sees 2 gateways and a third on the way and deduces a 3 gate opening, then gets hit a minute later by a badly executed 4 gate, that's not going to help him much. The habit here is scouting, not "scouting at 5:30." Deductions are from what you see. If you're scouting a 4 gate, you're looking for 4 gateways. If you don't see it, odds are he isn't doing it. End of deduction. No. Scouting at a certain timing is important because that's the habit you need to have if you want to move up into higher ranks. If he scouts at 6 minutes and deduces 3 gate, but gets hit by a 4 gate a minute later, he should have enough units to hold this terrible "4 gate" anyway. Any all-in strategy like 4 gate depreciates in value with every second that passes by in the game. That's why professional players practice to make their builds on the ball with every building. Scouting is cool, but what's the point of scouting if you're doing it just for the sake of scouting? It's more important to understand WHY you're scouting and WHY you're doing something rather than saying "oh the pros say scout so i will randomly run my ovie in to see what he has". Even with a delayed 4 gate, you can see signs at 5:30 that he is going to do one. 1 Assimilator. Low sentry count. No expansion. Low probe count/halted probe production. All these things give away what he is doing. Making your strategy based on the assumption that your opponent is bad is the fastest way to get caught up in lower levels. It's almost like saying "I won't get baneling speed since I can assume my opponent can't micro and will lose marines to my banelings." When you start to face people who can perfectly execute a 4-gate and you're still doing 6 minute scouts, you're gonna lose. If you play like you're supposed to, you shouldn't lose to 7-8minute 4gates in the first place.
even more so, with your initial drone you should be able to see how much energy he is using and what his first gas unit is. If a 4 gate is delayed then it just means that you should be even more prepared for it and the other cheese that you could forsee. The protoss opponent should be expanding at like 5:40 or so and if he has not taken his expo by 6:30 then you know to stop making drones and defend/scout more.
In general, arguing that he should learn how to scout instead of scout at 5:30 is a void argument. The whole point of scouting at 5:30 is the information you get w/ that scout, but you always need to keep scouting in mind.
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On August 02 2011 06:40 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 06:10 jhk0219 wrote:On August 02 2011 05:54 galtdunn wrote:On August 02 2011 05:40 jhk0219 wrote:On August 02 2011 04:59 galtdunn wrote:On August 02 2011 04:42 jhk0219 wrote:On August 02 2011 01:50 galtdunn wrote:On July 31 2011 00:53 halcy1 wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm a low level player on EU who recently got promoted to silver. I'm now having problems with ZvP which wasn't apparent in bronze. I do very well in the ZvZ matchup and pretty good in ZvT. In ZvZ it's because I feel quite confident, because I know my own race well and can out-macro and out-micro other zergs at my level.
ZvT feels tricky at times if they do early timing attacks, although by no means do I give free wins, I can usually win if I survive past a certain point.
Now ZvP is where I come up really short. Any kind of 4 gate pressure will make me lose; they always build a proxy pylon and are able to reinforce right at my natural exp. Usually pure stalker or mixed stalker zealot sentry with forcefields to split my roaches off. I can't even give chase without lair plus roach speed which means it's nearly impossible to obliterate their broken forces when they retreat.
Even still I can usually break off the 4gate siege and kill their army and proxy. But by then they've been on 2 bases for awhile and I only then am able to expand myself. This means that within 5 minutes there's a huge deathball army with colossus and possibly even immortals. At that point I've been droning hard to have any chance of catching up, and have only a small army of much lower value.
I'm not sure how I can progress when winning ZvP feels such a formidable task. I'd say at least 75% protoss will 4-gate me and sentries nullify any early roach aggression from me. Any advice that could help me back on track to my goal of becoming gold? I've currently resorted to 6 pooling every single protoss I meet because I cannot win legitimately. It's almost 100% win, but I know it won't be viable at higher levels and I'm only further delaying my progress this way. I guess this is a common problem for zergs in silver, and that's why protoss always 4gate.. Well if you hold off a 4 gate they should not have an expansion running. If they 4 gate correctly they will be broke, whether you hold it off or not. If you scout it (overlord~6 mins should do it), throw down 2-3 spines and make roaches and lings. your roach warren should go down around 27 food. Once they start attacking, make all the lings, roaches that you can afford, because if you beat it without losing your expansion, it's your game to lose. The key to defending is to not overextend, let the protoss attack into your spine crawlers and pick him off then, go for a surround if you have enough lings. Also, queens are great damage absorbers. Overlord at 6 minutes shouldn't do it at all. A properly executed 4 gate should be HITTING your base at 6 minutes. Since spine crawlers take 50 seconds to build, if the protoss is attacking your base at near 7 minute mark, you can't even call that a 4-gate anymore. He's in silver league, I'd like to see a good 4 gate hit him at anything before 6:45. A 4 gate is a 4 gate no matter what time it hits, as long as he just builds 4 gateways and attacks you. The timing is just what makes it a good or bad 4 gate. Just because he's in a lower league, it doesn't mean you should teach him bad habits. I've seen a ton of players carry over wrong timings, bad habits/mechanics, and understanding as they progress up the ranks. If anything, you should teach him to scout at the correct timing and tell him to deduce what the opponent will do based on what he sees. Well that's obviously ideal but he should be deducing anyways, no need to be redundant. If he scouts at 6 minutes and sees 2 gateways and a third on the way and deduces a 3 gate opening, then gets hit a minute later by a badly executed 4 gate, that's not going to help him much. The habit here is scouting, not "scouting at 5:30." Deductions are from what you see. If you're scouting a 4 gate, you're looking for 4 gateways. If you don't see it, odds are he isn't doing it. End of deduction. No. Scouting at a certain timing is important because that's the habit you need to have if you want to move up into higher ranks. If he scouts at 6 minutes and deduces 3 gate, but gets hit by a 4 gate a minute later, he should have enough units to hold this terrible "4 gate" anyway. Any all-in strategy like 4 gate depreciates in value with every second that passes by in the game. That's why professional players practice to make their builds on the ball with every building. Scouting is cool, but what's the point of scouting if you're doing it just for the sake of scouting? It's more important to understand WHY you're scouting and WHY you're doing something rather than saying "oh the pros say scout so i will randomly run my ovie in to see what he has". Even with a delayed 4 gate, you can see signs at 5:30 that he is going to do one. 1 Assimilator. Low sentry count. No expansion. Low probe count/halted probe production. All these things give away what he is doing. Making your strategy based on the assumption that your opponent is bad is the fastest way to get caught up in lower levels. It's almost like saying "I won't get baneling speed since I can assume my opponent can't micro and will lose marines to my banelings." When you start to face people who can perfectly execute a 4-gate and you're still doing 6 minute scouts, you're gonna lose. If you play like you're supposed to, you shouldn't lose to 7-8minute 4gates in the first place. even more so, with your initial drone you should be able to see how much energy he is using and what his first gas unit is. If a 4 gate is delayed then it just means that you should be even more prepared for it and the other cheese that you could forsee. The protoss opponent should be expanding at like 5:40 or so and if he has not taken his expo by 6:30 then you know to stop making drones and defend/scout more. In general, arguing that he should learn how to scout instead of scout at 5:30 is a void argument. The whole point of scouting at 5:30 is the information you get w/ that scout, but you always need to keep scouting in mind.
"The whole point of scouting at 5:30 is the information you get w/ that scout, but you always need to keep scouting in mind."
I never said that you shouldn't scout throughout the game, I was referring to this specific timing.
You yourself noted that you can scout at specific moments in the game for indication that the enemy player is either expanding or going for a 1 base attack. How can you turn around and say that scouting at 5:30 is void? The point of this is to teach a lower level player to scout, and to make his scouting effective. The poster from before argued you should scout at 6:00 because he's at a lower level, but I'm arguing this just brews bad habit.
Even with a delayed 4 gate, you can get enough information with the 5:30 scout to know which build he's going for. If you scout at 6:00, it might be too late against protoss players that have practiced 4-gating. It doesn't make sense to opt for a scouting timing that will get you the information too late for you to respond to anything. The information you get w/ scouting is only relevant to the time at which you scout. Scouting at 6supply wont give you nearly as much information as scouting at 10, regardless of the skill level of your opponent.
Saracen made this thread with the precondition that people should give advice ONLY IF they know what they are talking about. I hate to see a lower level player grow bad playing habits that takes him 10 times the effort to fix it later on in his career.
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On August 02 2011 06:49 jhk0219 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 06:40 ixi.genocide wrote:On August 02 2011 06:10 jhk0219 wrote:On August 02 2011 05:54 galtdunn wrote:On August 02 2011 05:40 jhk0219 wrote:On August 02 2011 04:59 galtdunn wrote:On August 02 2011 04:42 jhk0219 wrote:On August 02 2011 01:50 galtdunn wrote:On July 31 2011 00:53 halcy1 wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm a low level player on EU who recently got promoted to silver. I'm now having problems with ZvP which wasn't apparent in bronze. I do very well in the ZvZ matchup and pretty good in ZvT. In ZvZ it's because I feel quite confident, because I know my own race well and can out-macro and out-micro other zergs at my level.
ZvT feels tricky at times if they do early timing attacks, although by no means do I give free wins, I can usually win if I survive past a certain point.
Now ZvP is where I come up really short. Any kind of 4 gate pressure will make me lose; they always build a proxy pylon and are able to reinforce right at my natural exp. Usually pure stalker or mixed stalker zealot sentry with forcefields to split my roaches off. I can't even give chase without lair plus roach speed which means it's nearly impossible to obliterate their broken forces when they retreat.
Even still I can usually break off the 4gate siege and kill their army and proxy. But by then they've been on 2 bases for awhile and I only then am able to expand myself. This means that within 5 minutes there's a huge deathball army with colossus and possibly even immortals. At that point I've been droning hard to have any chance of catching up, and have only a small army of much lower value.
I'm not sure how I can progress when winning ZvP feels such a formidable task. I'd say at least 75% protoss will 4-gate me and sentries nullify any early roach aggression from me. Any advice that could help me back on track to my goal of becoming gold? I've currently resorted to 6 pooling every single protoss I meet because I cannot win legitimately. It's almost 100% win, but I know it won't be viable at higher levels and I'm only further delaying my progress this way. I guess this is a common problem for zergs in silver, and that's why protoss always 4gate.. Well if you hold off a 4 gate they should not have an expansion running. If they 4 gate correctly they will be broke, whether you hold it off or not. If you scout it (overlord~6 mins should do it), throw down 2-3 spines and make roaches and lings. your roach warren should go down around 27 food. Once they start attacking, make all the lings, roaches that you can afford, because if you beat it without losing your expansion, it's your game to lose. The key to defending is to not overextend, let the protoss attack into your spine crawlers and pick him off then, go for a surround if you have enough lings. Also, queens are great damage absorbers. Overlord at 6 minutes shouldn't do it at all. A properly executed 4 gate should be HITTING your base at 6 minutes. Since spine crawlers take 50 seconds to build, if the protoss is attacking your base at near 7 minute mark, you can't even call that a 4-gate anymore. He's in silver league, I'd like to see a good 4 gate hit him at anything before 6:45. A 4 gate is a 4 gate no matter what time it hits, as long as he just builds 4 gateways and attacks you. The timing is just what makes it a good or bad 4 gate. Just because he's in a lower league, it doesn't mean you should teach him bad habits. I've seen a ton of players carry over wrong timings, bad habits/mechanics, and understanding as they progress up the ranks. If anything, you should teach him to scout at the correct timing and tell him to deduce what the opponent will do based on what he sees. Well that's obviously ideal but he should be deducing anyways, no need to be redundant. If he scouts at 6 minutes and sees 2 gateways and a third on the way and deduces a 3 gate opening, then gets hit a minute later by a badly executed 4 gate, that's not going to help him much. The habit here is scouting, not "scouting at 5:30." Deductions are from what you see. If you're scouting a 4 gate, you're looking for 4 gateways. If you don't see it, odds are he isn't doing it. End of deduction. No. Scouting at a certain timing is important because that's the habit you need to have if you want to move up into higher ranks. If he scouts at 6 minutes and deduces 3 gate, but gets hit by a 4 gate a minute later, he should have enough units to hold this terrible "4 gate" anyway. Any all-in strategy like 4 gate depreciates in value with every second that passes by in the game. That's why professional players practice to make their builds on the ball with every building. Scouting is cool, but what's the point of scouting if you're doing it just for the sake of scouting? It's more important to understand WHY you're scouting and WHY you're doing something rather than saying "oh the pros say scout so i will randomly run my ovie in to see what he has". Even with a delayed 4 gate, you can see signs at 5:30 that he is going to do one. 1 Assimilator. Low sentry count. No expansion. Low probe count/halted probe production. All these things give away what he is doing. Making your strategy based on the assumption that your opponent is bad is the fastest way to get caught up in lower levels. It's almost like saying "I won't get baneling speed since I can assume my opponent can't micro and will lose marines to my banelings." When you start to face people who can perfectly execute a 4-gate and you're still doing 6 minute scouts, you're gonna lose. If you play like you're supposed to, you shouldn't lose to 7-8minute 4gates in the first place. even more so, with your initial drone you should be able to see how much energy he is using and what his first gas unit is. If a 4 gate is delayed then it just means that you should be even more prepared for it and the other cheese that you could forsee. The protoss opponent should be expanding at like 5:40 or so and if he has not taken his expo by 6:30 then you know to stop making drones and defend/scout more. In general, arguing that he should learn how to scout instead of scout at 5:30 is a void argument. The whole point of scouting at 5:30 is the information you get w/ that scout, but you always need to keep scouting in mind. "The whole point of scouting at 5:30 is the information you get w/ that scout, but you always need to keep scouting in mind." I never said that you shouldn't scout throughout the game, I was referring to this specific timing. You yourself noted that you can scout at specific moments in the game for indication that the enemy player is either expanding or going for a 1 base attack. How can you turn around and say that scouting at 5:30 is void? The point of this is to teach a lower level player to scout, and to make his scouting effective. The poster from before argued you should scout at 6:00 because he's at a lower level, but I'm arguing this just brews bad habit. Even with a delayed 4 gate, you can get enough information with the 5:30 scout to know which build he's going for. If you scout at 6:00, it might be too late against protoss players that have practiced 4-gating. It doesn't make sense to opt for a scouting timing that will get you the information too late for you to respond to anything. The information you get w/ scouting is only relevant to the time at which you scout. Scouting at 6supply wont give you nearly as much information as scouting at 10, regardless of the skill level of your opponent. Saracen made this thread with the precondition that people should give advice ONLY IF they know what they are talking about. I hate to see a lower level player grow bad playing habits that takes him 10 times the effort to fix it later on in his career.
Scouting between 5:20 and 6 minutes in perfectly fine. But you should be scouting about every 10 seconds and looking for unit counts or sacking an overlord to see whats in the base. Lastly you should be checking the map for pylons if you haven't seen any expo by 5 minutes in my opinion. Scouting is also not truly needed if you see about 6 sentries at 5:20 because he doesn't have a lot of gas for other units after that.
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There is a lot of talk about how to stop 4 gates, but what I find particularly difficult is the 4 gate blink. Even if I know it's coming for me it is totally impossible to stop. (this is at high diamond low masters level).
If i build spines, which I guess is viable on maps with a natural choke, he kills 1 spine at a time then retreats. By the time all my spines are gone his stalker ball is so big that it easily owns my roach/ling or all ling force.
If i go mass ling protoss waits until the stalker number is big enough so the surface area is no longer favorable for lings and they die. For the mass ling to work I feel like I need to get lucky and catch the stalkers in a bad position before they reach a mass.
If I go roach ling with no spines it seems like I just cant get enough in time. Maybe my problem is balancing army with drones? I try to get like 30 drones.
So my question in summary is what is the easiest way to deal with 4 gate blink stalker? Ling or roach ling? Spine or no spine? How many drones? Upgrades yes or no?
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From my experience, Roaches and Queens near some Spines holds off 4 gate just fine. Send a few Speedlings around behind the force to snipe the Probe/Pylon, and you're golden.
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Other than the Zergling +1 armor against Banelings, upgrades in metagame Roach-Infestor ZvZ are absolutely useless. I would stop at +1 armor, but 1/1 at most.
EDIT: Other than a timing attack I guess.
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what is the proper response to reactor hellion openings? I usually just get my 3rd queen to block my ramp and 2 spines in my nat but it's impossible to scout if they are getting blue flame and if they are dropping not only that but sometimes I will think im safe to continue on my ling tech and drone but they role in with like 12-14 hellions and just straight up burn my queen.
Anyways do I have to get roaches against hellion openers now? and if they don't follow through with hellions and i overreact (cuz i can't scout, lair tech scouting ftw...) they just do a 2 base rine tank push it's bleh...
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I ran a quick search but I couldn't find anything. Sorry if I missed it. But after watching the GSL finals I was curious as to what "triggers" made Nestea decide to go for a ling timing, or for his roach push with the 4 overseers. I've read a lot of people hyping the matches, but haven't seen much discussion as to potential reasoning and such behind it. I've tried looking at it and rewatching the vods, but I couldn't see any clear indicators for why Nestea chose one timing over the other. I'm not inclined to assume he just did it out of feeling or that he would use a prepared timing "blind." I mean to say, he might have had that timing prepared before hand, but usually timings only work in certain circumstances and I'm curious as to what tipped him off to those circumstances
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On August 03 2011 06:15 Aletheia27 wrote:
I ran a quick search but I couldn't find anything. Sorry if I missed it. But after watching the GSL finals I was curious as to what "triggers" made Nestea decide to go for a ling timing, or for his roach push with the 4 overseers. I've read a lot of people hyping the matches, but haven't seen much discussion as to potential reasoning and such behind it. I've tried looking at it and rewatching the vods, but I couldn't see any clear indicators for why Nestea chose one timing over the other. I'm not inclined to assume he just did it out of feeling or that he would use a prepared timing "blind." I mean to say, he might have had that timing prepared before hand, but usually timings only work in certain circumstances and I'm curious as to what tipped him off to those circumstances
Nestea said in the interview I believe that he had planned on using that strategy in his series vs losira. He had it planned, all his builds he was going to do, some he was going to do if it went to a game 5/6. He also said during his first attack when he made the 4 overseer's, that he was already planning his next attack while doing his first attack.
He had everything he was doing planned at least in that particular game, and game 1/3.
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On August 03 2011 06:15 Aletheia27 wrote:
I ran a quick search but I couldn't find anything. Sorry if I missed it. But after watching the GSL finals I was curious as to what "triggers" made Nestea decide to go for a ling timing, or for his roach push with the 4 overseers. I've read a lot of people hyping the matches, but haven't seen much discussion as to potential reasoning and such behind it. I've tried looking at it and rewatching the vods, but I couldn't see any clear indicators for why Nestea chose one timing over the other. I'm not inclined to assume he just did it out of feeling or that he would use a prepared timing "blind." I mean to say, he might have had that timing prepared before hand, but usually timings only work in certain circumstances and I'm curious as to what tipped him off to those circumstances
In game one, NesTea opted to sit back and tech because of how the early game turned out. Losira did an early baneling aggression play and NesTea went strait for roaches, so after the damage was absorbed the game was in the following state:
NesTea could always have more roaches than Losira with proper scouting because his roach warren went down earlier, so Losira couldn't attack.
NesTea could not attack Losira because of the large numbers of lings Losira had left over from the baneling opening, if NesTea ever left his base then a counter attack simply would have killed him.
NesTea was not behind in economy in any way, because their openers were mirrored up to the baneling vs. roach, so NesTea didn't need to attack.
This is why NesTea opted for a tech advantage over Losira (the mutalisks), because neither player could die nor expand.
This is in heavy contrast to game 2, when NesTea started out with a slight economic disadvantage due to the 10 pool. Expansion timings turned out to be mirrored despite this, so neither player had a larva advantage. This meant that speedling aggression early game was out of the question unless one player over-droned. Roach warren timings were also mirrored, so the game was in this state:
Neither player had a counter attack advantage because neither player went for a high speedling count early game, so roach aggression was viable
Both players, with proper scouting, could mirror the other's roach numbers
NesTea was not safe to go for any sort of massive tech switch, but tier 2 upgrades were still available because of how long it would take slow roaches to traverse the map.
NesTea took 4 geysers to gain these upgrades, then continued gas mining to build up the overseer count.
So, NesTea could gain a roach advantage using contaminate which won him the game, also the banelings that came out of freaking no where did him some good too... I don't know what to say about that specifically though haha.
note: NesTea did say that these were all planed out before-hand (as the post above states), but I still think this is importaint to point out why it worked, and how you can incorperate what ProfessorTea did in your own games. I don't care how much artosis hypes it up, you can't just go mutas every ZvZ and expect results, but you can go mutas if the game turned out as it did in game one.
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EPT
