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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On July 28 2011 21:19 DeltruS wrote:ZvT I am having a ton of trouble mid game. Here is my current style: - 11 pool 18 hatch, 3rd queen and gas. Drones off gas for a bit after I get ling speed.
- 4 gas and 2 evo chambers with melee upgrades. Lair to follow.
- Ovy speed. Spire and 6-8 mutas to stop drops. Infestation pit right after.
- I get a carapace on my spire and try to transition to a broodlord infestor queen army. I usually win if I can make it to this point.
The problem I am having is when a terran pushes out with a large amount of marines right as or before my mutas pop out. Getting banelings takes so much gas that it delays everything heavily, and they can't really be reactionary. Infestors are too late for this push. I've tried getting baneling mines as a low gas counter, but they don't work all the time. Does anyone have any tips for this style? ( mutas to stop drops into infestors + heavy upgrades)
I would wait on the infestation pit until after you know what your opponent is doing. If you see that he is pushing with a bunch of marines, you really want that gas for the Banes. I also get a bane nest while making my lair, it is 50 gas that adds a lot of security.
If you are having trouble finding out what your opponent is doing after the first ovie sac then you might want to always spend the 100g on ovie speed pretty quick, normally I forsake this until later and get faster + air atk but there is prolly more benefits to getting ovie speed (or overseer if you want).
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I know zerg is a reactionary race and I personally love this. I find I always have the problem of either not having enough larva or just having made drones right as my opponent moves out and im stuck with like 4 lings and a couple spine crawlers. My question is when (if at all) do you start pooling larva or making units against each race regardless of what you scout (as long as its not a 11/11, 4gate type rush)?
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On July 29 2011 03:07 Mattchew wrote:
I know zerg is a reactionary race and I personally love this. I find I always have the problem of either not having enough larva or just having made drones right as my opponent moves out and im stuck with like 4 lings and a couple spine crawlers. My question is when (if at all) do you start pooling larva or making units against each race regardless of what you scout (as long as its not a 11/11, 4gate type rush)?
this is really something that you cannot answer in general here, you just need to practise and over time you will get a feeling for sitations where it might be good to save a little larvae for some time (in most cases it isnt good, as you will have more larvae overall if you just always instantly build once you reach 3).
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On July 29 2011 03:07 Mattchew wrote:
I know zerg is a reactionary race and I personally love this. I find I always have the problem of either not having enough larva or just having made drones right as my opponent moves out and im stuck with like 4 lings and a couple spine crawlers. My question is when (if at all) do you start pooling larva or making units against each race regardless of what you scout (as long as its not a 11/11, 4gate type rush)?
Like Darkforce said its all feel but 1 suggestion I have is get a macro hatch before you get your 3rd. I do that and it helps to quickly saturate a third and still have larva or get them back faster.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 29 2011 02:53 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 21:19 DeltruS wrote:ZvT I am having a ton of trouble mid game. Here is my current style: - 11 pool 18 hatch, 3rd queen and gas. Drones off gas for a bit after I get ling speed.
- 4 gas and 2 evo chambers with melee upgrades. Lair to follow.
- Ovy speed. Spire and 6-8 mutas to stop drops. Infestation pit right after.
- I get a carapace on my spire and try to transition to a broodlord infestor queen army. I usually win if I can make it to this point.
The problem I am having is when a terran pushes out with a large amount of marines right as or before my mutas pop out. Getting banelings takes so much gas that it delays everything heavily, and they can't really be reactionary. Infestors are too late for this push. I've tried getting baneling mines as a low gas counter, but they don't work all the time. Does anyone have any tips for this style? ( mutas to stop drops into infestors + heavy upgrades) well thats just really terrible, you go for dual upgrades, mutas and infestation pit off 2 bases, what the fuck? i know this is going to sound like me being an asshole, but have you ever seen a top korean zerg play like this? i think not. just copy the koreans and dont think you are smart enough/have enough experience etc. to make up your own.. err builds or whatever you wanna call this. just learn to play standard, 15h14p, gas depending on map. then just 1 evo chamber and a banelingnest and/or roachwarren. then get spire at t2 and a sometimes macrohatch and take a third when you feel like its save to do so (matter of experience).
Hi Darkforce,
I have been having trouble with all 3 of my MU's, some of them are simple, some of them are complicated.
In ZvZ I have been trying to open with quick roach warren and getting enough roaches to defend what I think my opponent is doing. I seem to be having fair success vs early baneling play because my 5 roaches are out right about when the banes come in. The problem is when we come to slightly later when I have 15 or less roaches and the opponent is massing lings behind his map control. Typically this build results in me getting 10 or so infesters and a bunch of roaches on 3 bases, but when I die at 8-9 minutes by a mass of lings some would call overwhelming that just can't happen. It seems to be before I can get an overseer to my opponents base and before my eco really kicks in. I guess my main question is whether or not my build is viable?
In ZvP I have trouble with Void ray builds, typically I see the first Void ray and I will make a queen for each base and consider making a spore crawler for each base as well. They tend to come in right after I get lair, while my infestation pit is building (so I can't use them to defend). Normally when the opponent makes 2-3 VR's and maybe a phoenix and then goes back to normal production I will defend it properly. When they keep making voids, I won't really be able to scout them because of their air defense, and when they continue making stuff and attacking one area (such as my main) I just lose too much stuff. they have 3-4 voids and a phonix, target the infestation pit and the queens and I just can't produce enough stuff to defend w/out taking too much damage. Even if I eventually survive via Hydras, I will be too far behind and my hydras will lack the power to deny his third. I guess my question is, should I just plan for the worst and plan a spore or 2 for each base plus 2x queens for the base? Also, I tend to keep my important tech buildings in my main, should I place my tech like infestation and spire at other bases like my nat?
In ZvT I open 15h, 15p dobule queen w/ 2 sets of lings and first 100g to speed. I go up to 2 base muta, getting my second gas when I start lair and getting my other 2 gas when lair finishes. I typically defend the initial push from marines or marine//tank play but I have a problem with hellions. Most of my opponents put their marines down the ramp a little or hide the fact or the hellions for that matter while having a fact w/ tech lab (which I have been assuming is fast tank play, is this correct?). So I will see the hellion potential, get 2 spines and start the roach warren to protect the ramp but it is never enough, especially when the get blue flame and just kill my queens with their hellion. What are the signs for hellion play and what is the timing for hellions play (both bfh and reactor (hiddenreactor and reactor on the wall)) and what build is safe for hellion play; Also, what about fe into hellion play.
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On July 29 2011 03:33 ixi.genocide wrote:
In ZvT I open 15h, 15p dobule queen w/ 2 sets of lings and first 100g to speed. I go up to 2 base muta, getting my second gas when I start lair and getting my other 2 gas when lair finishes. I typically defend the initial push from marines or marine//tank play but I have a problem with hellions. Most of my opponents put their marines down the ramp a little or hide the fact or the hellions for that matter while having a fact w/ tech lab (which I have been assuming is fast tank play, is this correct?). So I will see the hellion potential, get 2 spines and start the roach warren to protect the ramp but it is never enough, especially when the get blue flame and just kill my queens with their hellion. What are the signs for hellion play and what is the timing for hellions play (both bfh and reactor (hiddenreactor and reactor on the wall)) and what build is safe for hellion play; Also, what about fe into hellion play.
I'm not darkforce, but perhaps I can help.
The first tip off is your drone scout. If you see terran take gas immediately after starting his barracks, this almost always means one of two things:
-hellions -> expand
-hellions -> banshees
The only times when 13gas doesn't mean hellions is if you see a tech lab building on the barracks when you drone scout. This means reapers.
Regular hellions are easy to spot. Reactor on a Factory. Since the reactor takes so long to build, it has to be pre-built on the first barracks. The first barracks is always used to wall in at the top of the ramp. So there's no way to hide a Reactor Hellion opening.
Igniter Hellions are a bit harder, since they can be hidden in the base and come at a later timing. However almost every Terran who goes for igniter hellions gets 2 factories, one with tech lab, one without. If you see this, it's almost guaranteed blue flame hellions and you should prepare for it.
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How viable would a PvZ build be where the P Forge FE to your natural?
What I was thinking is that if you went for a nydus then they could just blink up and snipe your nydus network and leave your army stuck in their main and not being able to defend your main.
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On July 29 2011 06:26 xRKronIC wrote:
How viable would a PvZ build be where the P Forge FE to your natural?
What I was thinking is that if you went for a nydus then they could just blink up and snipe your nydus network and leave your army stuck in their main and not being able to defend your main.
hi vileHawk,
viable is an iffy word, I mean given the right scenario while the protoss player already has a decent advantage it's possible that it can work,
The issue however is a question you have to ask yourself. What advantage does expanding to your opponents natural give you in comparison to expanding to your own natural. We have to consider as well that to expand to your opponents natural, you would need a pylon block on their ramp. So the question from there is, after you pylon block their ramp, what is better, expanding to their natural or your own?
Well if we consider the rush distance and your forge that helps block that was built at your natural we realize that your natural has a pretty big defenders advantage. especially coupled with the fact that stalkers or voidrays would be able to defend against muta or nydus or drop harass much more easily because you won't be as spread out. Now if you expand to your opponents natural, after the pylon block is destroyed by roaches or a spine crawler it will be very hard to protect because you would need alot of defenses at his natural to defend your nexus AND you would need to build cannons at your main in case he runs by, or gets drop, or gets nydus. But are there any advantages? well, if the game goes long enough technically you are mining from his natural and reducing the amount of minerals from it so that's something, but it's not worth the risk.
So to answer your question is it viable? No, there is a much better alternative that is expanding to your own natural, But is it possible? Yes very much so.
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On July 29 2011 06:17 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 03:33 ixi.genocide wrote:
In ZvT I open 15h, 15p dobule queen w/ 2 sets of lings and first 100g to speed. I go up to 2 base muta, getting my second gas when I start lair and getting my other 2 gas when lair finishes. I typically defend the initial push from marines or marine//tank play but I have a problem with hellions. Most of my opponents put their marines down the ramp a little or hide the fact or the hellions for that matter while having a fact w/ tech lab (which I have been assuming is fast tank play, is this correct?). So I will see the hellion potential, get 2 spines and start the roach warren to protect the ramp but it is never enough, especially when the get blue flame and just kill my queens with their hellion. What are the signs for hellion play and what is the timing for hellions play (both bfh and reactor (hiddenreactor and reactor on the wall)) and what build is safe for hellion play; Also, what about fe into hellion play. I'm not darkforce, but perhaps I can help. The first tip off is your drone scout. If you see terran take gas immediately after starting his barracks, this almost always means one of two things: -hellions -> expand -hellions -> banshees The only times when 13gas doesn't mean hellions is if you see a tech lab building on the barracks when you drone scout. This means reapers. Regular hellions are easy to spot. Reactor on a Factory. Since the reactor takes so long to build, it has to be pre-built on the first barracks. The first barracks is always used to wall in at the top of the ramp. So there's no way to hide a Reactor Hellion opening. Igniter Hellions are a bit harder, since they can be hidden in the base and come at a later timing. However almost every Terran who goes for igniter hellions gets 2 factories, one with tech lab, one without. If you see this, it's almost guaranteed blue flame hellions and you should prepare for it.
Are there any hellion openings that involve a later gas? What time should I send my drone out to get my drone in before the wall off. As far as I know the possible builds for Terran is 12 rax, 13/14 gas and 15 second depot but they can also do 12 rax, 15 oc and depot. Also, what is the time that reactor hellions will push out, and what is the time that bfh will move out. What time should I try to sac an ovie to see inside their base (sometimes this isn't possible).
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Sup all zergies. After going Terran to Random I'm now gonna settle down with Zerg. I just have a question. On ladder I face alot of 4gate and other all-ins and when they fail the Protoss backs home and turtles up up their ramp and tries to come back even if it's over and the whole thing get's kinda outdrawn and boring. What's the best way to react after a failing all-in and he doesn't leave the game? Against Terran you can always bbust him, but what can you do to Protoss?
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On July 29 2011 08:13 ixi.genocide wrote:
Are there any hellion openings that involve a later gas? What time should I send my drone out to get my drone in before the wall off. As far as I know the possible builds for Terran is 12 rax, 13/14 gas and 15 second depot but they can also do 12 rax, 15 oc and depot. Also, what is the time that reactor hellions will push out, and what is the time that bfh will move out. What time should I try to sac an ovie to see inside their base (sometimes this isn't possible).
I think you're having the same problem i have, which is not really recognizing that they are making hellions but how many they are making and which kind of hellion push they are planning. You almost always can scout gas and reactor, but it's technically always possible for terran to deny scouting of everything else.
There are so many ways they can go about it. theres the "standard" 4-6 hellions for which a spine and a few lings are fine, but they can do the medivac elevator trick instead, or get 10+ hellions, with or without blue flame, with or without a marine push to go with it. Since vs a competent terran you should have close to zero map vision at that stage they can show up at your front door with any of those and i can't see how you are supposed to not take crippling damage if all you have is a spine and a couple queens...
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On July 29 2011 08:53 Termit wrote:
Sup all zergies. After going Terran to Random I'm now gonna settle down with Zerg. I just have a question. On ladder I face alot of 4gate and other all-ins and when they fail the Protoss backs home and turtles up up their ramp and tries to come back even if it's over and the whole thing get's kinda outdrawn and boring. What's the best way to react after a failing all-in and he doesn't leave the game? Against Terran you can always bbust him, but what can you do to Protoss?
Make enough drones to feel comfortable, get a third and then mass roach or w/e you want to use while scouting him. The game might go on for another 5+ minutes but you won't lose. I wouldn't even bother trying to end it quick, it leads to frustration.
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where, when and under what circumstances (build, poor macro/etc) will you take a macro hatch?
Should I put it in my main, nat, a new base? hide it? use it as a meat shield? How does matchup factor in?
Thanks for any advice... been having some difficulty with it lately as I've been trying to transition away from being a cheese master to an actual macro game player
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On July 29 2011 03:33 ixi.genocide wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 29 2011 02:53 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 21:19 DeltruS wrote:ZvT I am having a ton of trouble mid game. Here is my current style: - 11 pool 18 hatch, 3rd queen and gas. Drones off gas for a bit after I get ling speed.
- 4 gas and 2 evo chambers with melee upgrades. Lair to follow.
- Ovy speed. Spire and 6-8 mutas to stop drops. Infestation pit right after.
- I get a carapace on my spire and try to transition to a broodlord infestor queen army. I usually win if I can make it to this point.
The problem I am having is when a terran pushes out with a large amount of marines right as or before my mutas pop out. Getting banelings takes so much gas that it delays everything heavily, and they can't really be reactionary. Infestors are too late for this push. I've tried getting baneling mines as a low gas counter, but they don't work all the time. Does anyone have any tips for this style? ( mutas to stop drops into infestors + heavy upgrades) well thats just really terrible, you go for dual upgrades, mutas and infestation pit off 2 bases, what the fuck? i know this is going to sound like me being an asshole, but have you ever seen a top korean zerg play like this? i think not. just copy the koreans and dont think you are smart enough/have enough experience etc. to make up your own.. err builds or whatever you wanna call this. just learn to play standard, 15h14p, gas depending on map. then just 1 evo chamber and a banelingnest and/or roachwarren. then get spire at t2 and a sometimes macrohatch and take a third when you feel like its save to do so (matter of experience). Hi Darkforce, I have been having trouble with all 3 of my MU's, some of them are simple, some of them are complicated. In ZvZ I have been trying to open with quick roach warren and getting enough roaches to defend what I think my opponent is doing. I seem to be having fair success vs early baneling play because my 5 roaches are out right about when the banes come in. The problem is when we come to slightly later when I have 15 or less roaches and the opponent is massing lings behind his map control. Typically this build results in me getting 10 or so infesters and a bunch of roaches on 3 bases, but when I die at 8-9 minutes by a mass of lings some would call overwhelming that just can't happen. It seems to be before I can get an overseer to my opponents base and before my eco really kicks in. I guess my main question is whether or not my build is viable? In ZvP I have trouble with Void ray builds, typically I see the first Void ray and I will make a queen for each base and consider making a spore crawler for each base as well. They tend to come in right after I get lair, while my infestation pit is building (so I can't use them to defend). Normally when the opponent makes 2-3 VR's and maybe a phoenix and then goes back to normal production I will defend it properly. When they keep making voids, I won't really be able to scout them because of their air defense, and when they continue making stuff and attacking one area (such as my main) I just lose too much stuff. they have 3-4 voids and a phonix, target the infestation pit and the queens and I just can't produce enough stuff to defend w/out taking too much damage. Even if I eventually survive via Hydras, I will be too far behind and my hydras will lack the power to deny his third. I guess my question is, should I just plan for the worst and plan a spore or 2 for each base plus 2x queens for the base? Also, I tend to keep my important tech buildings in my main, should I place my tech like infestation and spire at other bases like my nat? In ZvT I open 15h, 15p dobule queen w/ 2 sets of lings and first 100g to speed. I go up to 2 base muta, getting my second gas when I start lair and getting my other 2 gas when lair finishes. I typically defend the initial push from marines or marine//tank play but I have a problem with hellions. Most of my opponents put their marines down the ramp a little or hide the fact or the hellions for that matter while having a fact w/ tech lab (which I have been assuming is fast tank play, is this correct?). So I will see the hellion potential, get 2 spines and start the roach warren to protect the ramp but it is never enough, especially when the get blue flame and just kill my queens with their hellion. What are the signs for hellion play and what is the timing for hellions play (both bfh and reactor (hiddenreactor and reactor on the wall)) and what build is safe for hellion play; Also, what about fe into hellion play.
ZvZ: well your build is obviously good against 1 base ling baneling, but bad against hatch first and speedling expands, and i guess mediocre against defensive ling baneling (depending on how many banes are built, whether he gets early spine etc etc). so yea, viable is always hard to say in ZvZ, but as a standard i wouldnt use it. if you ahve problems with massling, get a baneling nest, so you can morph your starting lings into banes when you see mass ling coming.
ZvP: well vs voids its probably proper to get 1 spore each base in case he pumps quite heavy air. 1-2 extra queens is also good. then you need hydras. you can go for a hydra ling push on more open maps, which in many cases will kill your opponent. or you just fake the hydra ling push and take a third in the meanwhile and get roachspeed etc...
maybe you shouldnt be so stubborn with always getting the infestation pit and going infestor, seems to hurt you (i personally always lose when i go infestor early in zvp, but i also havent figured out how to do it right ;p)
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On July 29 2011 13:25 michaelhasanalias wrote:
where, when and under what circumstances (build, poor macro/etc) will you take a macro hatch?
Should I put it in my main, nat, a new base? hide it? use it as a meat shield? How does matchup factor in?
Thanks for any advice... been having some difficulty with it lately as I've been trying to transition away from being a cheese master to an actual macro game player
You will see many Zerg players now use macro hatches as an actual part of their build (take RGNPhoeNix for example). Generally the only reason you want a macro hatch is for the increased larvae production rate. You need them almost always in the late game (for remaxing), usually in the mid game (if making a lot of low cost units (lings, roaches, etc.), and sometimes in the early game (for powering drones). Where to put it is situational. Usually placing it in the main is so you don't want your opponent to see it / defensive stance, placing it at your natural is standard (because of the open space and spreading creep with queens that have excess energy), and placing it at another base is for getting more ahead / fast 3rd. You will have to find your own style or certain builds that call for an early macro hatch, however. Most standard builds still revolve around 1 hatch per base, but the Zerg metagame is switching towards 1.5 hatches per base (this is why you see usually 3 hatches / 2 bases). Now many Zergs use lots of lings and roaches, which don't cost many resources, but a lot of larvae. This is where macro hatches come into handy. There is no set time to take a macro hatch in a game, its all situational and style-based. I personally like to have at least 1 every game, and usually taken very quickly when playing against Protoss. I won't take a macro hatch vT or vZ until the mid game, just because I use lings more when playing against Protoss.
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On July 29 2011 13:25 michaelhasanalias wrote:
where, when and under what circumstances (build, poor macro/etc) will you take a macro hatch?
Should I put it in my main, nat, a new base? hide it? use it as a meat shield? How does matchup factor in?
Thanks for any advice... been having some difficulty with it lately as I've been trying to transition away from being a cheese master to an actual macro game player
usually when youre going to build many lings its a good idea to get one, even if you also get a third. for example when going muta ling baneling in ZvT. on xel naga you can use it as additional walling vs hellions for example
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what should i do when a terran blocks my hatch with a supply depot? is there something i can do as a reaction? How can I edit my build for this when it happens going 15h/15p?
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how the !@!@!@! do you defend a 2 rax with decent placement? like the intial marine is behind the bunker in an untouchable spot or blocked by an scv???
he just would bring out his marines to destroy the spinecrawler as well.
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On July 29 2011 14:50 AustinCM wrote:
what should i do when a terran blocks my hatch with a supply depot? is there something i can do as a reaction? How can I edit my build for this when it happens going 15h/15p?
Just lay down the pool, you're hatch will be delayed a little bit, but nothing you can really do except try to kill that scv with a drone and kill the suppy depo.
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On July 29 2011 15:00 AustinCM wrote:
how the !@!@!@! do you defend a 2 rax with decent placement? like the intial marine is behind the bunker in an untouchable spot or blocked by an scv???
he just would bring out his marines to destroy the spinecrawler as well.
Your pool and hatch should be finished right before the 2 rax arrives, I generally pull like 4 drones and make the 4 larvae into lings, you can opt to get a spine crawler instead of the queen. put 1 drone on the scv building (shift click it) and then deal w/ the rest of his forces with your 8 lings and the extra drones. sometimes you will have to build an extra ling or 2 but that should hold it. Obviously the opponents skill is a big factor in these fights.
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EPT
