EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 62
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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AustinCM
Canada275 Posts
Also I use the IdrA hatch first roach opening which pops 4 roaches at 5:20 (would be 5:05 but I scout) it is 15 hatch 15 pool drone to 18 18 gas 17 ovy @100% pool 3 in gas roach warren and 1 queen and 6 lings, drone to 22 make ovy and then 4 roaches when warren pops, how does that sound? | ||
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Harpoon_5
25 Posts
he advocates that you should ALWAYS go 15 hatch at your natural then 14 pool, even in close positions this has worked pretty well for me, sometimes i lose if i cant get enough scout information and get rushed by an early pool, early marines, early zealots (havent seen that for a while though) but this last game I just saw an unstoppable strat against a fast expand zerg by a silver protoss player on tal'darim altar i scout his enterance and see it blocked by a zealot, sentry, gate and core... i figure okay hes going typical 4gate or tech to something cheesy like voids or DTs... fine I can keep droning out and saturate both my expos b4 i build units... i always keep lings near his entrance and at the watch towers in case he moves out, so Ill have that vital warning time to build up defenses But what he does is make a proxy pylon, near my base but not too close, out of range of any tower or obvious spot, and hits my expansion w/ 8 zealots + sentries, warping in more to reinforce... i pull back my drones and queen, keep trying to make as many lings as i can from my main, throw down a couple of spines but he has too many units and rolls me what should I have done ?? i dont think its feasible to have complete vision of your side of the map this early in the game.. theres always going to be some spot for a pylon.... shoudl I have just used all my minerals to build 6-7 spines in my main the moment he hit? seems like it would just delay the inevitable.. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On July 26 2011 08:55 AustinCM wrote: What should I be doing when I scout my opponent going hatch first and I as well went hatch first? Also I use the IdrA hatch first roach opening which pops 4 roaches at 5:20 (would be 5:05 but I scout) it is 15 hatch 15 pool drone to 18 18 gas 17 ovy @100% pool 3 in gas roach warren and 1 queen and 6 lings, drone to 22 make ovy and then 4 roaches when warren pops, how does that sound? Making roachs that early will set you decently behind if your opponent just sticks to lings and drones. That's around 450 minerals for the warren + roaches, which is a ton wasted if your opponent doesn't try to be aggressive with banes. It's a good build for playing against a 14/14, but not vs a hatch first. Typically you want to get ling speed and 2 queens out instead, as is the current trend amongst pro Zerg's. They key to getting ahead in hatch vs hatch is delaying committing to tech as long as possible without dying. It's important that you get your first ling(s) up into his main to scout what he's doing. If he's going roaches, stick to speedlings and drone up while making your own warren later, or you can play defensive banelings with a spine more cost effectively than offensive banes. There may be a good build out there that gets roaches out early, but I don't know it unfortunately  | ||
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nicke10
Sweden114 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On July 26 2011 11:03 nicke10 wrote: Who's a good zerg to mimic that plays really standard and really strong macro focused play? I know IdrA is the perfect example but his tmings is so crisp and relay on perfect things like drones blocking Hellions and stuff like that. Is darkforce this guy perhaps? A consistet player Darkforce's style is very defensive... Its obviously very strong, and emulating him would never be a bad idea, but I can't help but feel like his play-style is a little bit unique to him. Ret and Sheth both have slightly more straight-forward styles that are a little bit more easily emulated. Check those guys out if you can. On July 26 2011 08:32 Tachion wrote: In master's when both zerg's 14/14, I've seen some take drones off gas to get ling speed, expand at 21, then put them back on for a baneling nest. Does anyone use this, and if so, how has it been faring for them against a zerg who commits to 1 base ling/bane? Speedling expand against one base banes is a build order loss. If both players have perfect control, then the sling player just won't have a way to deal with the initial baneling push. If mistakes are made you can make it work, but, at the end of the day, one base banes are just better than pure speedling. | ||
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nicke10
Sweden114 Posts
On July 26 2011 12:03 MrBitter wrote: Darkforce's style is very defensive... Its obviously very strong, and emulating him would never be a bad idea, but I can't help but feel like his play-style is a little bit unique to him. Ret and Sheth both have slightly more straight-forward styles that are a little bit more easily emulated. Check those guys out if you can. Thanks. I don't like being on the defense. Is there any aggresive zergs that still plays really solid that's good to emulate. I like julys style quite a bit. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On July 26 2011 12:07 nicke10 wrote: Thanks. I don't like being on the defense. Is there any aggresive zergs that still plays really solid that's good to emulate. I like julys style quite a bit. Seriously, check out Sheth. He's the perfect mix of aggression and macro. His builds are simple and easy to follow. The thing that sets him apart is his incredible execution and decision making. | ||
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soccercasanova
Argentina21 Posts
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PhattY`
United States9 Posts
On July 26 2011 08:32 Tachion wrote: In master's when both zerg's 14/14, I've seen some take drones off gas to get ling speed, expand at 21, then put them back on for a baneling nest. Does anyone use this, and if so, how has it been faring for them against a zerg who commits to 1 base ling/bane? I personally 14/14 - 21 expo in all my ZvZ matches and as of late, rarely ever lose to a 1 base ling/bane. I tend to favor keeping 1 or 2 drones in gas and skipping banelings entirely (as well as skipping speed if you scout a 1 base ling/bane) in order to throw down a Roach Warren and start roach production. Massing roaches while sneaking a few drones with every larvae cycle will allow you to negate his bane tech entirely as well as allow you to take advantage of your 1 base lead if you're able to sneak drones. Best case scenario is your opponent will make extremely uneven trades if you micro properly and worst case scenario is that your opponent stops his bane aggression after a push or two which would still put you slightly ahead of your opponent. | ||
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raybasto
United States151 Posts
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On July 26 2011 12:03 MrBitter wrote: Darkforce's style is very defensive... Its obviously very strong, and emulating him would never be a bad idea, but I can't help but feel like his play-style is a little bit unique to him. that actually surprises me, as i try to copy the koreans for a pretty big part (apart from their offcreep attacks into marine tank :>). but i guess i do try to go t3 more often than trying to finish the game on t2, especially vs T | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On July 26 2011 16:40 DarKFoRcE wrote: that actually surprises me, as i try to copy the koreans for a pretty big part (apart from their offcreep attacks into marine tank :>). but i guess i do try to go t3 more often than trying to finish the game on t2, especially vs T To be fair, I haven't seen as much of your play since NASL ended. You European guys don't get enough exposure. edit: And to be clear, I don't mean to say "don't emulate Darkforce because his style is bad". What I mean to say is waiting for tier 3 like you often do can get players in trouble if they don't understand when and why they need to be attacking. In other words, it works for you because you understand how to play out the game. On July 26 2011 15:09 raybasto wrote: Whats the best response to scouting a DT opening into mass Zlot/Immortal/Archon? The standard Roach/upgraded Ling has a really hard time against this Roach/Infestor is what I use here. Couple key points: 1.) Scout the DTs. If you don't, its autolose. 2.) Kite the zealots. Even with charge, roaches can kite them for days. 3.) Use fungal for keep away, but don't forget about Neural Parasite. and most importantly 4.) As always, you've got to make sure that you're engaging Protoss often enough that he doesn't reach that god-tier deathball status. A maxed zlot/archon/immortal army is, in my opinion, the strongest 200/200 army in the game. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 26 2011 16:40 DarKFoRcE wrote: that actually surprises me, as i try to copy the koreans for a pretty big part (apart from their offcreep attacks into marine tank :>). but i guess i do try to go t3 more often than trying to finish the game on t2, especially vs T Yeah i'm kind of the same way vs T, idk why just how it goes for me as well. | ||
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izlong
Singapore108 Posts
v Z it usually means crawlers, queen and lings. v P it's cannons, stalkers and lots. is there a mathematical advantage to taking out one type of defence before the other? | ||
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
On July 26 2011 17:40 izlong wrote: Hi. So I really like how I can run speedlings past opponent walls and into mineral lines to ravage probes/drones/scvs. But I've always wondered: assuming I have sufficient lings to overpower all the defences there before extra reinforcements arrive, should I be taking out static defences first, or the units there first? v Z it usually means crawlers, queen and lings. v P it's cannons, stalkers and lots. is there a mathematical advantage to taking out one type of defence before the other? Whichever one is better vs your lings and has the lowest relative HP. Take out their lings first. queens just tickle and crawlers hit too slowly/tank too well. Kill stalkers and zealots first. Cannons tank too well also. Think about the damage your lings do vs armor as well. Cannons and crawlers just get annoyed by zerglings. | ||
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Senj
United States193 Posts
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Senj_vs_(Z)Lotus_xel_naga_caverns_sc2rep_com_20110727/11721 First replay I go for some aggression and it falls completely flat, then I basically get run over by roaches. I probably shouldn't have droned while attacking. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Senj_vs_(Z)SCAIamGunM__sc2rep_com_20110727/11720 Here I play defensive, and hold off some bane aggression and then a big counter costs me the game. I'd appreciate any advice because right now ZvZ just kills the fun of Sc2.  | ||
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Ownerage
Canada16 Posts
Just have been matched agaisnt a terran on abyssal, and lost, even tho he had no expand. He went marine/tank, all game, and I wasn't able to push him back that much. I hold to my expansion until he had like 20 marines and 3 tanks, and I had nothing. I tried infestors, but they were spawning to late, so I had to switch to roach/baneling But he scanned everydamn 2 secs at my expansion (QQ) I couldn't do anything, and flanking wasn't a possibility because of the map. I know my macro was far from perfect, but I just wanna know how would you guys counter that. | ||
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Paper117
United States210 Posts
Quoted from my post there: A lot of people in the "Why FE in ZvZ" mention going 15 hatch, gas, pool. However, their exact timings differ. Is there a timing that is generally considered preferable or considered most practical (weighing economy and safety)? For example, is 15 hatch, 15 gas, 15 pool preferred over 15 hatch, 14 gas, 13 pool and the various permutations? Also, are there any generally agreed upon timings for the 3rd Ovie and the queens for hatch/ gas/ pool? Do people usually pull gas at 100, or is that decision more of a reactionary one? | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On July 28 2011 01:16 Ownerage wrote: I have a question for pros. Just have been matched agaisnt a terran on abyssal, and lost, even tho he had no expand. He went marine/tank, all game, and I wasn't able to push him back that much. I hold to my expansion until he had like 20 marines and 3 tanks, and I had nothing. I tried infestors, but they were spawning to late, so I had to switch to roach/baneling But he scanned everydamn 2 secs at my expansion (QQ) I couldn't do anything, and flanking wasn't a possibility because of the map. I know my macro was far from perfect, but I just wanna know how would you guys counter that. Attach a replay if you want them to be really helpful, but it sounds like you went straight to Infestors which is vulnerable to a fast Marine/Tank timing. You need to have Ling/Bane or Roach/Bane for this push, with good creep spread, and preferably Baneling Speed, although it's not necessary. Going straight to Infestors will get you killed in any matchup. | ||
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