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Hi, me again to ask a few specific questions this time. I am in gold league
In ZvZ I am using the 15h/15p/17g. However I get dominated if the zerg goes early pool, which most do. Should I be drone scouting at 9? I don't drone scout in any of my matches because I use all safe builds. Like someone said in the upper post maybe 15pool first would be better?
In ZvT I am having the MOST trouble with banshee harassment. Even if I build 2 spines in each base he just does so much damage to my drones that I fall behind A LOT. How do I deal with this? Maybe I should be scouting earlier for this. Again I don't drone scout very much. I use the standard 15H/16pool.
On February 03 2013 18:27 SnowZi wrote: Please,can someone help me,im high masters and i can't beat 1 base pushes,if i make alot of spines i fall back in eco alot,and im not sure if i should take drones off gas
What match up?
I am going to assume not zvz. You should pull drones off of gas (unless you are making roaches) and just use spine/speedling to hold. Pretty much you have to remember that he doesn't have an expansion. This puts you way ahead if you hold his push as you can then start pumping out a ton of drones and not worry about a second follow up for awhile by which you should be saturated for the most part and teching.
lol i forgot to mention the matchup,uhm it's zvp,i just can't win vs 1 base,there's so many things he can do,and since im not sure if i can make drones for 2nd base,it's 1 base vs 1 base...
On February 03 2013 06:46 Henk wrote: Hey guys. I just played a game on which I did the 8 muta into roach-infestor in ZvZ, I know it's quite a common build but I'm unsure on how to execute it. I just randomly throw down my lair/gases and then end up with too little drones and minerals. I uploaded a game on which I tried it- I wanted to cancel his third with some lings, then when my mutas pop clean up overlord/ chase back roaches, but he just pushed and killed me with roaches due to me not having enough mins to make my own. I'd love if someone could point out on which timings I should throw down my stuff and how my early game zvz looks generally. Master league, by the way, although my lair/gas timings probably looked plat-ish.
Also - I just played a game in which I LOST vs muta into roaches. He had a 'ton' of lings which scared me to push with my roaches, and honestly I had missplaced my spines and lost queens due to stupid mistakes. How are you supposed to deal with it? Throw down a quick third, turtle up and just push at max army with hydras? Or what. I'm confused ;( Thanks for any help I get in advance!
With your gas you make speed then bane nest (or the other way around if you know the other guy has fastest gas), then next 100 gas go to lair and immedialtely triple gas at that point. You'll feel like your drones are building too slowly (you will not be able to spend all your larvae immedialely to drone when injects pop), but you're fine. Scout with like 4 speedlings to see if he goes roaches or not. If he does, dont make too many lings (not more than 20) and keep droning (up to ~50), throw down 4 spines total at your natural and a roach warren before spire is done. Move 2 spines to your third when they're done. If he's going muta, you have to make more lings because he's likely to make lings too, and minerals from your extra drones dont matter that much.
If he kills your third it doesnt mean you've lost the game, because he lost every roach to do that. And you know you can drone hard since he doesnt have a second roach force that could walk across the map without your muta killing it.
With mutas shooting at roaches when they're crossing map + 2 spines on each base + whatever lings roaches you have you should be fine. Basically, if you see he's going roaches, dont try to cancel his third with mutas, because chances are, if he sees that, he'll roach push to kill your third and your muta will be a little too far behind. It's better to play defensive, kill overlords mid map etc., untill the roach push timing is gone. Your transition out of muta has to be super quick. Once mutas are done, throw down immediately infestation pit, roach warren and double evo. make only drones and infestors then roaches when you're gas starved. You should be able to push with maxed army a little bit after your 1-1 is done and when your 2-2 is on the way.
On February 03 2013 09:16 learning88 wrote: What is the current ZvZ standard BO opening? I see 15H/15P/17G, 14P/15H, 15P/16H. I used to do 15H/15P/15G just to get gas early but I've recently changed to 15P/16H because I heard its about economically similar to 15H but safer to early pools.
Also, what's the exact BO of the 15P/16H? From what I can think out, its like:
15 pool 16 hatch 15 ovie 15 gas? @pool finishing-> Queen @Queen finishing-> walk Queen to nat and make 2nd Queen at main
Is that correct or have I completely butchered the build
Correct
On February 03 2013 20:51 kuruptt wrote: Hi, me again to ask a few specific questions this time. I am in gold league
In ZvZ I am using the 15h/15p/17g. However I get dominated if the zerg goes early pool, which most do. Should I be drone scouting at 9? I don't drone scout in any of my matches because I use all safe builds. Like someone said in the upper post maybe 15pool first would be better?
In ZvT I am having the MOST trouble with banshee harassment. Even if I build 2 spines in each base he just does so much damage to my drones that I fall behind A LOT. How do I deal with this? Maybe I should be scouting earlier for this. Again I don't drone scout very much. I use the standard 15H/16pool.
If you have trouble against early pool, go pool first yourself (15P) like in the quote before.
In ZvT, check the op for a standard build that will hold banshee. You should have at least 4 queens total, and a spore crawler in each mineral line. Your lair should be done by the time banshee comes so that you can have an overseer to chase them away.
Thanks alot Natalya, that was very useful. I finally know the exact time to put down my gases, which helps a ton.
However on the other end of the spectrum: How do you deal with your opponent going 8 muta into roach-infestor, assuming you're just playing standard (relatively early third, straight into roach-infestor)?
I feel like I'm always playing from behind.. Do you just turtle up until 200/200 for roach-hydra festor and push? Or are you supposed to hit a timing? Thanks!
I go muta 100% of my zvz since 2-3 month. I couldnt tell you how to deal with muta yourself as roach-infestor palyer. I think muta is far superior (map control, freedom to drone, overlords kill, and at the end sac yourself into fungals to make infestors lose energy so that it's like they had less ifnestors). I honestly think the pros are not going muta because of personal distaste of the unit (like Stephano which never use them for instance), or because if mutas were too previsible, they would just be blind countered by some ling/roach/bane all in on hatchery tech or super uber fast infestors (like infestors before roaches ;D).
I lose pretty rarely when playing muta against roach infestors. I basically end up having more of everything (except upgrades if he did go double evo chamber but then his infestor count should be low). More base, more hatch, more infestors, more roaches. But i lose most of my muta vs muta games
On February 04 2013 10:05 Natalya wrote: I go muta 100% of my zvz since 2-3 month. I couldnt tell you how to deal with muta yourself as roach-infestor palyer. I think muta is far superior (map control, freedom to drone, overlords kill, and at the end sac yourself into fungals to make infestors lose energy so that it's like they had less ifnestors). I honestly think the pros are not going muta because of personal distaste of the unit (like Stephano which never use them for instance), or because if mutas were too previsible, they would just be blind countered by some ling/roach/bane all in on hatchery tech or super uber fast infestors (like infestors before roaches ;D).
I lose pretty rarely when playing muta against roach infestors. I basically end up having more of everything (except upgrades if he did go double evo chamber but then his infestor count should be low). More base, more hatch, more infestors, more roaches. But i lose most of my muta vs muta games
So in short my answer would be go muta every game
as a high master zerg I can say that muta play is discouraged by pros because there is far too much risk and luck involved into gameplay. If you are the muta player you have a huge disadvantage against +1+1 ling play that can absolutely destroy you if you're not careful. Particularly if the player has good micro, he will be able to not only get 3rd faster than you but also put heavy aggression on you, you will be forced to stay home and defend with mutas while he gets infestors out - 8 larvae wasted on mutas and not on lings is the most critical moment and weakness for you which good players WILL abuse. Blings can help but he can equally put down baneling nest and deny your 3rd while getting mutas out. Muta player can get hit by a fast +1+1 roach timing while teching to infestors + 3rd. It's an extremely dangerous build and if you don't immediately put down 4-5 additional spines you're going to lose the game outright. also if you go mutas and he goes for the queen roach nydus play and pulls it off, you physically won't have enough resources to hold the push, you will be outupgraded (+1+1 queens with transfuse rape the 10-12 mutas that you have)
On February 05 2013 02:48 obis wrote: Hey everybody, Do you guys know how i would do this kind of 2 base max roach build? would i first get 16 drones on minerals and than after 32 drones would i saturate all 4 geysers? that is if i just wanted to go mass roach off of 2 bases. i'm just not sure when i should be getting my gas and how much of it. i would like upgrades and maybe even roach speed with burrow and tunneling claws. what i do now is get 16 drones on minerals at both bases and than once i have 32 drones i use all the larva i get after that to saturate my gas geyser until they are fully saturated and than i get lair with my first 100 gas and than just get roaches after that but i'm not sure if that's the best way to do it, could you guys help me with this build? it's for all match ups.
Try this one. Works really well for me in master league. (Turn on english captions - DRG explains the build)
On February 04 2013 10:05 Natalya wrote: I go muta 100% of my zvz since 2-3 month. I couldnt tell you how to deal with muta yourself as roach-infestor palyer. I think muta is far superior (map control, freedom to drone, overlords kill, and at the end sac yourself into fungals to make infestors lose energy so that it's like they had less ifnestors). I honestly think the pros are not going muta because of personal distaste of the unit (like Stephano which never use them for instance), or because if mutas were too previsible, they would just be blind countered by some ling/roach/bane all in on hatchery tech or super uber fast infestors (like infestors before roaches ;D).
I lose pretty rarely when playing muta against roach infestors. I basically end up having more of everything (except upgrades if he did go double evo chamber but then his infestor count should be low). More base, more hatch, more infestors, more roaches. But i lose most of my muta vs muta games
So in short my answer would be go muta every game
as a high master zerg I can say that muta play is discouraged by pros because there is far too much risk and luck involved into gameplay. If you are the muta player you have a huge disadvantage against +1+1 ling play that can absolutely destroy you if you're not careful. Particularly if the player has good micro, he will be able to not only get 3rd faster than you but also put heavy aggression on you, you will be forced to stay home and defend with mutas while he gets infestors out - 8 larvae wasted on mutas and not on lings is the most critical moment and weakness for you which good players WILL abuse. Blings can help but he can equally put down baneling nest and deny your 3rd while getting mutas out. Muta player can get hit by a fast +1+1 roach timing while teching to infestors + 3rd. It's an extremely dangerous build and if you don't immediately put down 4-5 additional spines you're going to lose the game outright. also if you go mutas and he goes for the queen roach nydus play and pulls it off, you physically won't have enough resources to hold the push, you will be outupgraded (+1+1 queens with transfuse rape the 10-12 mutas that you have)
The builds you are pointing out are good vs mutas, but you have to commit to them before you can know the guy's going muta. you'll chose to go 1-1 roaches before you see a spire, same for 1-1 lings. So if you mean it's a gamble to go muta because you could be countered by other builds blindly chosen, then yes it is. But EVERY builds in starcraft (yes, EVERY build) will be behind or autolose against other builds blindly chosen. So it's not an argument against muta in my opinion.
I'll also disagree that other players can take a 3rd faster. You can make as much ling/bane as anyone else with muta build, since other players will reach full 2 base saturation before taking a third and making lings and bane, just the same you are doing with your muta build. They'll tech behind into roaches while you tech to mutas, that's the only difference (and they cant make slow raoches to defend their third, if they do that it's a win for you because you either run everywhere with lings or go back a little and let the muta do the job.
1-1 roach push can be deflected with 2 spines at each base (check my replay) and roaches of your own (if i scout roaches i'll make a roach warren before my spire finish so i can make roaches to tank their roaches while my muta shoot them. But really few people go 1-1 roach push anyway, same with 1-1 lings, those builds are really out of fashion (at lest in top master europe). 1-1 ling has been figured out to lose to raoches on 3 base, 1-1 roach cut too much into your infestors.
So in the end, it comes down to what I said earlier, if mutas were too previsible, they would be hard countered by 1-1 lings builds. I think that's why pros only mix them here and there but since ladder is Bo1, we can make muta every zvz
Ps: Henk, i'm happy the replay was usefull. I know I took bad engagements when it came down to big armies, but appart from that, do you have anything to say about my play? Things here and there that I dont do right or something?
I'll give it another look in a moment Natalya, as a thank you for the help with my muta issue :D
I still have a question remaining that hasn't been answered yet; how do I deal with my opponent going 8 mutas when I'm playing standard? What are you supposed to do? Turtle on 3 bases until 200/200 and push? Or hit some kind of timing window? Also, quick infestors or quick hydras? Help! :D
I'll edit this post if I have any recommendations, will watch your replay now Natalya.
Edit: I do think you're playing a little bit risky. You haven't seen anything. You saw his natural hatchery timing but that's it, when your lair is almost done. He could be preparing a huge all in and you wouldn't know, even though you'd spot it with your overlord when he moves out. But still, try running 2 lings past his natural into his main once you have speed.
Also I have no idea why the hell he wanted to walk his slow roaches to your natural instead of just killing the third, giving you more time to pick away at his units with your mutas.
After that you basically couldn't lose unless you move commanded your roaches into a concave. You did get caught out of position quite a bit near the end. You were standing in a ball shape and he hit you with quite a concave and hydras, which do a ton of damage. So yeah perhaps dropping changelings all the time for more vision or setting up a presplit concave whenever you're chilling somewhere might be a good idea.
Either way you played well, few mistakes made I'd say. Although the little scouting you did could seriously bite you in the ass in a different game, against a different zerg.
That's the very basic of overlord production yeah, but you need to know why we're doing that... Some prefer to have them sooner or later because of a timing push. Some can't make overlord too soon because they can't afford it or because they're still only on 1 base etc etc. We're doing 9 overlord for example because we know we can't have queen and only 1 larvae will come out after that. 16 overlord is pretty much the same. 22 on the other hand, most of the time the first injection is already done so It's good to have an overlord in advance in order to not get supply blocked. Don't worry, just play, you'll get used to it pretty fast. Just pay attention to the supply and always make at least 1 overlord per hatch / injection (roughly).
I think I was able to wing together an semi-allin to punish standard muta play. I can give reps but they're kinda gimmicky because I'm only high dia and I haven't found anyone yet that knew how to prepare against it and almost all of them overdroned after their 8 mutas. It's a 16 hydra 4 infestor with constant ling and sometimes bane reinforcement. I push out when my ling or changeling sees the other guy starts to drone his 3rd. Save fungals for banelings intending to blow up my hydras and maybe the mutas if they clump.
I just like to know if this works on higher levels or do I have to use mutas too. Frankly they infuriate me and are probably counter productive to getting better. I heard that HotS zvz is worse.
I'm not sure if this is the right thread but can anybody provide a 3 base build order than can lead to Swarmhosts in ZvP? I want to know: 1. what/when upgrades should I get 2. Can I go only roach ling before going straight swarmhost 3. Delay hive and make infestors 4. How should we transition to fight a sky deathball?
I want to know the most optimal way to go swarmhost on 3 bases.
I'm currently using 3 base Muta right into double expand and ultralingbane now and it is just damn good. I want to know one more build order that doesnt make muta
On February 05 2013 09:21 Henk wrote: I'll give it another look in a moment Natalya, as a thank you for the help with my muta issue :D
I still have a question remaining that hasn't been answered yet; how do I deal with my opponent going 8 mutas when I'm playing standard? What are you supposed to do? Turtle on 3 bases until 200/200 and push? Or hit some kind of timing window? Also, quick infestors or quick hydras? Help! :D
I'll edit this post if I have any recommendations, will watch your replay now Natalya.
Edit: I do think you're playing a little bit risky. You haven't seen anything. You saw his natural hatchery timing but that's it, when your lair is almost done. He could be preparing a huge all in and you wouldn't know, even though you'd spot it with your overlord when he moves out. But still, try running 2 lings past his natural into his main once you have speed.
Also I have no idea why the hell he wanted to walk his slow roaches to your natural instead of just killing the third, giving you more time to pick away at his units with your mutas.
After that you basically couldn't lose unless you move commanded your roaches into a concave. You did get caught out of position quite a bit near the end. You were standing in a ball shape and he hit you with quite a concave and hydras, which do a ton of damage. So yeah perhaps dropping changelings all the time for more vision or setting up a presplit concave whenever you're chilling somewhere might be a good idea.
Either way you played well, few mistakes made I'd say. Although the little scouting you did could seriously bite you in the ass in a different game, against a different zerg.
Scouting has always be my weak point. You're right I should've try and scouted with lings. I guess huge hatchery tech all-in are never used anymore at my level except for banelings ling attack, which I would have been ready for. He tried to go into my natural because he hoped there would'nt be spines there, and because he couldnt kill any drones in my third.
To answer you, the plan when going standard against muta is to max out on 3 base (+ a macro hatch) on infestors roach hydra (basically try and get the best possible army on 3 base).
On February 05 2013 09:21 Henk wrote: I'll give it another look in a moment Natalya, as a thank you for the help with my muta issue :D
I still have a question remaining that hasn't been answered yet; how do I deal with my opponent going 8 mutas when I'm playing standard? What are you supposed to do? Turtle on 3 bases until 200/200 and push? Or hit some kind of timing window? Also, quick infestors or quick hydras? Help! :D
I'll edit this post if I have any recommendations, will watch your replay now Natalya.
Edit: I do think you're playing a little bit risky. You haven't seen anything. You saw his natural hatchery timing but that's it, when your lair is almost done. He could be preparing a huge all in and you wouldn't know, even though you'd spot it with your overlord when he moves out. But still, try running 2 lings past his natural into his main once you have speed.
Also I have no idea why the hell he wanted to walk his slow roaches to your natural instead of just killing the third, giving you more time to pick away at his units with your mutas.
After that you basically couldn't lose unless you move commanded your roaches into a concave. You did get caught out of position quite a bit near the end. You were standing in a ball shape and he hit you with quite a concave and hydras, which do a ton of damage. So yeah perhaps dropping changelings all the time for more vision or setting up a presplit concave whenever you're chilling somewhere might be a good idea.
Either way you played well, few mistakes made I'd say. Although the little scouting you did could seriously bite you in the ass in a different game, against a different zerg.
Scouting has always be my weak point. You're right I should've try and scouted with lings. I guess huge hatchery tech all-in are never used anymore at my level except for banelings ling attack, which I would have been ready for. He tried to go into my natural because he hoped there would'nt be spines there, and because he couldnt kill any drones in my third.
To answer you, the plan when going standard against muta is to max out on 3 base (+ a macro hatch) on infestors roach hydra (basically try and get the best possible army on 3 base).
Well yeah, I'm master EU too and you wouldn't believe howmany zergs try to drone to 15~20 then mass lings and just try to flood you with it. You didn't check to see his dronecount either so he could've done that. I also believe you didn't have a 3rd queen to wall off your ramp easily and your simcity wasn't optimal; putting your spine between your nest and natural hatchery helps.
Thanks for the advice on dealing with those 8 mutas! So I should try to take a 4th when I move out, I presume?
On February 05 2013 16:37 Discarder wrote: I'm not sure if this is the right thread but can anybody provide a 3 base build order than can lead to Swarmhosts in ZvP? I want to know: 1. what/when upgrades should I get 2. Can I go only roach ling before going straight swarmhost 3. Delay hive and make infestors 4. How should we transition to fight a sky deathball?
I want to know the most optimal way to go swarmhost on 3 bases.
I'm currently using 3 base Muta right into double expand and ultralingbane now and it is just damn good. I want to know one more build order that doesnt make muta
On February 05 2013 09:21 Henk wrote: I'll give it another look in a moment Natalya, as a thank you for the help with my muta issue :D
I still have a question remaining that hasn't been answered yet; how do I deal with my opponent going 8 mutas when I'm playing standard? What are you supposed to do? Turtle on 3 bases until 200/200 and push? Or hit some kind of timing window? Also, quick infestors or quick hydras? Help! :D
I'll edit this post if I have any recommendations, will watch your replay now Natalya.
Edit: I do think you're playing a little bit risky. You haven't seen anything. You saw his natural hatchery timing but that's it, when your lair is almost done. He could be preparing a huge all in and you wouldn't know, even though you'd spot it with your overlord when he moves out. But still, try running 2 lings past his natural into his main once you have speed.
Also I have no idea why the hell he wanted to walk his slow roaches to your natural instead of just killing the third, giving you more time to pick away at his units with your mutas.
After that you basically couldn't lose unless you move commanded your roaches into a concave. You did get caught out of position quite a bit near the end. You were standing in a ball shape and he hit you with quite a concave and hydras, which do a ton of damage. So yeah perhaps dropping changelings all the time for more vision or setting up a presplit concave whenever you're chilling somewhere might be a good idea.
Either way you played well, few mistakes made I'd say. Although the little scouting you did could seriously bite you in the ass in a different game, against a different zerg.
Scouting has always be my weak point. You're right I should've try and scouted with lings. I guess huge hatchery tech all-in are never used anymore at my level except for banelings ling attack, which I would have been ready for. He tried to go into my natural because he hoped there would'nt be spines there, and because he couldnt kill any drones in my third.
To answer you, the plan when going standard against muta is to max out on 3 base (+ a macro hatch) on infestors roach hydra (basically try and get the best possible army on 3 base).
Well yeah, I'm master EU too and you wouldn't believe howmany zergs try to drone to 15~20 then mass lings and just try to flood you with it. You didn't check to see his dronecount either so he could've done that. I also believe you didn't have a 3rd queen to wall off your ramp easily and your simcity wasn't optimal; putting your spine between your nest and natural hatchery helps.
Thanks for the advice on dealing with those 8 mutas! So I should try to take a 4th when I move out, I presume?
I would've been ready for a ling timing (i could make banes by the time i saw lings running under my overlord). I'm messing with different spine placement at the moment. The thing is with the placement you propose they can often times find a sweet spot to attack your probes or your gas out of range of the spine crawler. I dont know why you would need a 3rd queen? 2 queens wall off the ramp no problem. Not a single top Z gets a 3rd queen before he has a 3rd hatch. Do yourself a favor and save those 150 minerals :D If queens are there so you dont miss injects, well, I rather miss a single inject in my main base when i'm attacked than make a queen every game and lose those 150 minerals.
And well, about the 4rth base it depends how the game is unfolding but if things go how they should, the muta player should have a bigger army, which means you shouldnt be able to take a 4rth. The thing is, his army should be slightly less gas heavy than yours and that means he cant afford hydras and infestors, which means he's stuck on roach infestor against your roach infestor hydras. That means that muta player will try to bust you before you're maxed yourself, because max vs max armies you should win since your composition should be better than roach infestors.
Compositions in zvz go like this : roach infestors > roach hydras roach hydra > pure roach roach hydra infestor > roach infestor.
And that's what makes mutas so good in my opinion. If a roach player wants to push across the map against a muta player relatively fast, he has to do it with roach hydra (he cant use roach infestor because then the muta player sends two muta at a time attacking infestors and ifnestor burns all their energy for a few muta). But at that time, the muta player has roach infestor, which destros roach hydra. Which means the roach player cant get out of his base before he has roach infestors hydras. It's up to the muta player to hit before the roach player get maxed on roach hydra infestors, but the way the builds works it should not be a problem for the muta player.
EPT
