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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Hello, I am in gold and I struggle with a weird protoss push.
I am currently struggling with a interesting timing for me. Its basically a 2 base all in where they do throw up a third but its basically as they are moving out with the death push. So they dont' reap the benefit of it.
The timing I'm struggling with is when they go to push out with 3-4 immortals and see that I have not over droned my third, and that I get quick roaches. Enough that when I see them move out they don't have a chance when I use all my larvae on lings (unless they are very zealot heavy). So basically here is what happens. The immortal push in gold is later than the pros obviously to the point where normalyl you can get your third up but if you saturated it fully your usually dead. I do n't do that i keep enough on hand that if I make one round of larvae on army I should hold the push. I start the round on the move out and make sure I hit the injects before they arrive (standard mechanics I know but for gold this can be hard). So when they see with an obs or something that they will most likely die and pull back then I sit on my 3rd take a 4th or 5th but then they come out with 2-3 colossals 4-6 immortals and a ton of stalkers and they warp in mainly zealot stalker. If they use 4 plus sentry with good ff i just immediately disengage i know that time and rallying troops is on my side.
The problem I have is if I go corruptor to handle the colossal I die, too much gas for too little of there army in trade back. Plus the 3 colossal do there job well enough. if I don't go corruptor and I go infestor, well the range nerf has made them suck a little more. Also, good ff can still protect the majority of the army. and I still think fungals are better on sentry/stalker than tossing infested terrans out. problem is if they trade 50/50 on my army or get slightly better and pull back. I'm almost mined out on 2 bases they are usually still on 2. I have to take a 4th or 5th thats near them. While I can keep throwing roaches at them I wait for BL. If I get to BL I win. But if they come back before I can get 6 BL then I die. 6 is the magic number for me it seems.
Anyways, I hope someone can help with some tips for dealing with the army composition that protoss is throwing at me.
Notes on my side. If I go corruptor I usually don't have infestors. If I go infestors I don't have corruptors. I go double evo, so I keep on top of the upgrades. I feel upgrades are very important to zerg's winning. I also do not use hydra. I find its too hard to attack with. I'm debating about 10 hydra from now on for these defensive engagements.
Feel free to post or PM responses. Thank you for your time. I hope I have included enough information.
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On January 20 2013 03:30 purecarnagge wrote:
Hello, I am in gold and I struggle with a weird protoss push.
I am currently struggling with a interesting timing for me. Its basically a 2 base all in where they do throw up a third but its basically as they are moving out with the death push. So they dont' reap the benefit of it.
The timing I'm struggling with is when they go to push out with 3-4 immortals and see that I have not over droned my third, and that I get quick roaches. Enough that when I see them move out they don't have a chance when I use all my larvae on lings (unless they are very zealot heavy). So basically here is what happens. The immortal push in gold is later than the pros obviously to the point where normalyl you can get your third up but if you saturated it fully your usually dead. I do n't do that i keep enough on hand that if I make one round of larvae on army I should hold the push. I start the round on the move out and make sure I hit the injects before they arrive (standard mechanics I know but for gold this can be hard). So when they see with an obs or something that they will most likely die and pull back then I sit on my 3rd take a 4th or 5th but then they come out with 2-3 colossals 4-6 immortals and a ton of stalkers and they warp in mainly zealot stalker. If they use 4 plus sentry with good ff i just immediately disengage i know that time and rallying troops is on my side.
The problem I have is if I go corruptor to handle the colossal I die, too much gas for too little of there army in trade back. Plus the 3 colossal do there job well enough. if I don't go corruptor and I go infestor, well the range nerf has made them suck a little more. Also, good ff can still protect the majority of the army. and I still think fungals are better on sentry/stalker than tossing infested terrans out. problem is if they trade 50/50 on my army or get slightly better and pull back. I'm almost mined out on 2 bases they are usually still on 2. I have to take a 4th or 5th thats near them. While I can keep throwing roaches at them I wait for BL. If I get to BL I win. But if they come back before I can get 6 BL then I die. 6 is the magic number for me it seems.
Anyways, I hope someone can help with some tips for dealing with the army composition that protoss is throwing at me.
Notes on my side. If I go corruptor I usually don't have infestors. If I go infestors I don't have corruptors. I go double evo, so I keep on top of the upgrades. I feel upgrades are very important to zerg's winning. I also do not use hydra. I find its too hard to attack with. I'm debating about 10 hydra from now on for these defensive engagements.
Feel free to post or PM responses. Thank you for your time. I hope I have included enough information.
Could you provide a replay? It sounds like your macro is way worse then it should be. There is absolutely no reason not to drone to 57~60 drones when an immortal sentry push is coming. Early attacks such as gateway aggression should make you cut drones to get units out - But especially in gold, where the push hits 2 minutes later then it should be, you could already be maxed on roach-ling. There is no reason to go 'quick roaches' unless you're 100% sure gateway aggression is coming, or you're doing some kind of all in.
For the colossus attack - it all comes back on your macro. If you droned hard enough, you should be sitting on 80 drones with 4-5 bases and 8-10 gas geysers, and your broodlords should be out in time to deal with this. You cannot kill his push without broodlords. Colossi and immortals deal with roach-ling too well.
http://drop.sc/296666
Here is a replay of me vs a toss who is doing immortal sentry. As you can see, I scout 2 gas at his natural. This means either double stargate, DT, or sentry immortal. I then scout his main and see a buttload of gates (7 in total). This means it can only be immortal sentry. I drone up to 57 (9 on gas, 3x16=48 on minerals). I actually make a -huge- error this game: I didn't hotkey my macro hatch. I was floating 1.5k-400 because of me having 20 larvae I forgot about. I still win though. If I had droned less, he would've killed me because of my shitty production. If a toss scouts your almost empty mineral line at your third, he knows he can outproduce you, and he knows his units are way stronger than yours. He then simply goes for a later all in and kills you, because your economy is way too weak. Making units like you are doing so early is basically saying 'ok, I know for sure he is attacking right now'. Either that, or you're planning to attack him right away. You basically want to drone as hard as you can until you REALLY have to make units.
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On January 20 2013 00:39 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 07:10 FrogOfWar wrote:On January 12 2013 20:48 Natalya wrote:On January 12 2013 13:59 FrogOfWar wrote:
This may be an odd question but it would be great if someone could enlighten me. Somehow when I want to spam infested terrans, the key gets deselected while spamming, so that my infestors only throw one egg and I have to press the infested terran key on the keyboard again to throw more. Somehow this only happens in ladder games. I thought maybe this happens when I accidentally click on an enemy unit, but when I tried this in a game vs ai the problem didn't occur. Or is it when infestors are not in range and the path is blocked or someting? Does anyone else experience this? On January 12 2013 20:11 Immutant wrote:On January 12 2013 18:48 Henk wrote:On January 12 2013 13:59 FrogOfWar wrote:
This may be an odd question but it would be great if someone could enlighten me. Somehow when I want to spam infested terrans, the key gets deselected while spamming, so that my infestors only throw one egg and I have to press the infested terran key on the keyboard again to throw more. Somehow this only happens in ladder games. I thought maybe this happens when I accidentally click on an enemy unit, but when I tried this in a game vs ai the problem didn't occur. Or is it when infestors are not in range and the path is blocked or someting? Does anyone else experience this? In for example roach hydra wars in zvz where you want to spam a lot of infested terrans: press your infestor hotkey (2 for me), then press s (important!) Then hold shift and click T. Keep holding those keys and click like a madman. Yes, if I just go infestor hotkey, and then shift + T, all my infestors would end up retarded and start dancing infront of the Terran army whereby I might as well gg. So, is there really no alternative other than using S or H? There is actually two methods to spam IT. You can either use the shift method as described. Make sure, before you hold shift and press your infested terran hotkey, to order a move command to a place out of range of your ennemy's units. The second method is simply to hold your infested terran hotkey (without any use of shift) and click everywhere you want an infested terran. There's an upside and a downside to this method. First of all, you dont need to hold shift, which is cool, but you are also giving an new order to one of your infestor each time you click, which can lead to less eggs popping. Let's say you have 12 infestors. They are out of range of where you want to pop ur eggs. You select your infestor, hold your infested terran hotkey and click 15 times at a certain place. Only 12 eggs will pop, one per infestor, because when you are clicking the 13th time, you are replacing an old "cast terran egg" order with a new one, thus cancelling the old order. That means that this second method is less efficient if your infestors are not already in range of the place where you want them to spam eggs. I checked again in a replay. The problem is in fact that when I want to throw an infested terran and accidentally click on an enemy unit, which happens when I want infested terrans in their army, that enemy unit gets selected and therefore, since my infestors aren't selected any more, the next clicks do nothing. It was clear from my player cam in the replay how first my group of infestors was selected and when I started spamming, a sequence of opponent units got selected randomly. Weird, I tested for this again vs ai, and there it doesn't happen. Shit, if you're a zerg and can't throw infested terrans into opponents army, you're in trouble. Speaking of trouble, I can't beat terran. I'm in platinum. Most of my platinum zerg and protoss opponents I find ezpz, so that bnet gives me diamond opponents frequently. But I lose to gold terrans in a not even close manner. Yes, I read the guide linked in the OP. The problem basically is that I can't attack the turtle and they only come out of the turtle when they have a death ball that can kill everything I can muster up by just looking at it funny. Well, one of many problems. Talking about mech mostly. For BLs I feel you have to be really rich because you need BLs AND a shit ton of corruptors AND infestors. I don't get that rich before their death ball comes. I tried drops. Drops on their bases to slow them down and buy time, drops on their army to avoid dying on the ground before even touching them. Banelings as well as zerglings and roaches. Doesn't do anything. They just pull their workers and move their army in, anything I damage is repaired. I could drop when they moved out of course, but a base race with a terran seems like a bad idea. I tried early aggression (roach, ling, baneling) on their natural to prevent or delay the death ball phase. And yes, I can shut down their natural for a while, but they push me out eventually, and it doesn't seem to matter. Sorry for the rant, but I'm really frustrated right now. EDIT: I got the solution to the first problem: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295763 Ah, your mech problems. I used to have those. The thing you're doing wrong, and I can guarantee; you're not droning hard enough. Mech can't attack you before like 160 supply. Mech uses banshee and most frequently hellion runbys to hurt your economy. When you scout mech, around 8-9 minutes, make like 10-12 roaches to defend against the hellions, then hold the D button until you have 80 drones on 4 bases. Then pump roaches and get drops/overlord speed. Drop their main, send a pack of roaches to their third. Be sure to inject behind this, because if everything is going well they'll all in with their remaining units. If you don't do that much damage to force them to go all in, tech up to BL while pumping more roaches. You should have 5 bases and 10 gas by now. If you can deny his 4th from going up you'll just easily win. If you're maxed out and want to make BL, just drop some more roaches somewhere. This is what I usually do. I could try to find a replay if you'd like? I'm mid-low masters. This usually works for me; it may not be ideal and if someone wants to correct me somewhere, please do. Edit: Checked for replay, sadly it's already gone and I didn't save it.  But this advice might help you nonetheless, I hope!
Thanks! You affirm what I was suspecting as well. I'm too scared early game of hellions, banshees, drops and whatever surprises terran might pull off, and therefore play too safe i.e. not greedy enough. I've beaten two meching terrans yesterday and today by saying fuck it, taking an early third and droning hard before thinking of being aggressive. Those were gold, but the concept seemed to make sense. (And as for the surprises, scouting is probably the answer.)
Lately I think it also became a mindset thing - if you firmly believe you can't win, then you can't. Thanks again, I'll definitely explore this approach more.
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On January 20 2013 04:49 FrogOfWar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 00:39 Henk wrote:On January 19 2013 07:10 FrogOfWar wrote:On January 12 2013 20:48 Natalya wrote:On January 12 2013 13:59 FrogOfWar wrote:
This may be an odd question but it would be great if someone could enlighten me. Somehow when I want to spam infested terrans, the key gets deselected while spamming, so that my infestors only throw one egg and I have to press the infested terran key on the keyboard again to throw more. Somehow this only happens in ladder games. I thought maybe this happens when I accidentally click on an enemy unit, but when I tried this in a game vs ai the problem didn't occur. Or is it when infestors are not in range and the path is blocked or someting? Does anyone else experience this? On January 12 2013 20:11 Immutant wrote:On January 12 2013 18:48 Henk wrote:On January 12 2013 13:59 FrogOfWar wrote:
This may be an odd question but it would be great if someone could enlighten me. Somehow when I want to spam infested terrans, the key gets deselected while spamming, so that my infestors only throw one egg and I have to press the infested terran key on the keyboard again to throw more. Somehow this only happens in ladder games. I thought maybe this happens when I accidentally click on an enemy unit, but when I tried this in a game vs ai the problem didn't occur. Or is it when infestors are not in range and the path is blocked or someting? Does anyone else experience this? In for example roach hydra wars in zvz where you want to spam a lot of infested terrans: press your infestor hotkey (2 for me), then press s (important!) Then hold shift and click T. Keep holding those keys and click like a madman. Yes, if I just go infestor hotkey, and then shift + T, all my infestors would end up retarded and start dancing infront of the Terran army whereby I might as well gg. So, is there really no alternative other than using S or H? There is actually two methods to spam IT. You can either use the shift method as described. Make sure, before you hold shift and press your infested terran hotkey, to order a move command to a place out of range of your ennemy's units. The second method is simply to hold your infested terran hotkey (without any use of shift) and click everywhere you want an infested terran. There's an upside and a downside to this method. First of all, you dont need to hold shift, which is cool, but you are also giving an new order to one of your infestor each time you click, which can lead to less eggs popping. Let's say you have 12 infestors. They are out of range of where you want to pop ur eggs. You select your infestor, hold your infested terran hotkey and click 15 times at a certain place. Only 12 eggs will pop, one per infestor, because when you are clicking the 13th time, you are replacing an old "cast terran egg" order with a new one, thus cancelling the old order. That means that this second method is less efficient if your infestors are not already in range of the place where you want them to spam eggs. I checked again in a replay. The problem is in fact that when I want to throw an infested terran and accidentally click on an enemy unit, which happens when I want infested terrans in their army, that enemy unit gets selected and therefore, since my infestors aren't selected any more, the next clicks do nothing. It was clear from my player cam in the replay how first my group of infestors was selected and when I started spamming, a sequence of opponent units got selected randomly. Weird, I tested for this again vs ai, and there it doesn't happen. Shit, if you're a zerg and can't throw infested terrans into opponents army, you're in trouble. Speaking of trouble, I can't beat terran. I'm in platinum. Most of my platinum zerg and protoss opponents I find ezpz, so that bnet gives me diamond opponents frequently. But I lose to gold terrans in a not even close manner. Yes, I read the guide linked in the OP. The problem basically is that I can't attack the turtle and they only come out of the turtle when they have a death ball that can kill everything I can muster up by just looking at it funny. Well, one of many problems. Talking about mech mostly. For BLs I feel you have to be really rich because you need BLs AND a shit ton of corruptors AND infestors. I don't get that rich before their death ball comes. I tried drops. Drops on their bases to slow them down and buy time, drops on their army to avoid dying on the ground before even touching them. Banelings as well as zerglings and roaches. Doesn't do anything. They just pull their workers and move their army in, anything I damage is repaired. I could drop when they moved out of course, but a base race with a terran seems like a bad idea. I tried early aggression (roach, ling, baneling) on their natural to prevent or delay the death ball phase. And yes, I can shut down their natural for a while, but they push me out eventually, and it doesn't seem to matter. Sorry for the rant, but I'm really frustrated right now. EDIT: I got the solution to the first problem: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295763 Ah, your mech problems. I used to have those. The thing you're doing wrong, and I can guarantee; you're not droning hard enough. Mech can't attack you before like 160 supply. Mech uses banshee and most frequently hellion runbys to hurt your economy. When you scout mech, around 8-9 minutes, make like 10-12 roaches to defend against the hellions, then hold the D button until you have 80 drones on 4 bases. Then pump roaches and get drops/overlord speed. Drop their main, send a pack of roaches to their third. Be sure to inject behind this, because if everything is going well they'll all in with their remaining units. If you don't do that much damage to force them to go all in, tech up to BL while pumping more roaches. You should have 5 bases and 10 gas by now. If you can deny his 4th from going up you'll just easily win. If you're maxed out and want to make BL, just drop some more roaches somewhere. This is what I usually do. I could try to find a replay if you'd like? I'm mid-low masters. This usually works for me; it may not be ideal and if someone wants to correct me somewhere, please do. Edit: Checked for replay, sadly it's already gone and I didn't save it. But this advice might help you nonetheless, I hope! Thanks! You affirm what I was suspecting as well. I'm too scared early game of hellions, banshees, drops and whatever surprises terran might pull off, and therefore play too safe i.e. not greedy enough. I've beaten two meching terrans yesterday and today by saying fuck it, taking an early third and droning hard before thinking of being aggressive. Those were gold, but the concept seemed to make sense. (And as for the surprises, scouting is probably the answer.) Lately I think it also became a mindset thing - if you firmly believe you can't win, then you can't. Thanks again, I'll definitely explore this approach more.
Taking your third early really helps. I have died from simple things like hellion/banshee, just because of starting my lair too late and not having an overseer out. By starting your third early, you can throw down a spore which will help immensely against those annoying banshees. Saying 'fuck it' and droning up your third is something you might not want to do though. You want to make sure you actually understand what they're doing by scouting. I usually do the 4 queen build, then take my third when my 3rd and 4th queen are 75% done.
Basically; this
The Basic Build
-15 hatchery
-16 spawning pool
-2 queens when pool finishes
-2 more queens (queen 3/4). Move initial 2 queens after inject to front of natural to begin creep spread (Queen 3/4 will be injecting)
-Take third immediately when minerals available (should be ~ when Queen 3/4 are at 50-75% complete)
-Take 2 gas at 5:20
-Generally, players gas progression is: Ling Speed, 1/1, start lair (2 more gasses), lair finishes (last 2 gasses)
This is the standard build. When you scout mech, I suggest not taking the 5th and 6th gas.
Anyway, as I was saying, droning up your third like that will kill you when the terran goes for something like a hellion/marauder all in. One thing that changed my way of approaching ZvT was my change of mindset when I scout a third. When you scout an early third CC, it means you're safe to drone up yourself. When you don't scout an early third, but instead a lot of barracks/stuff being researched, you might want to hold off on droning up your third until it's safe to do so.
(So, either scouting an early third, or knowing he's going for mech should give you the impulse to start droning)
I hope this helps a little bit!
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On January 20 2013 04:55 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 04:49 FrogOfWar wrote:On January 20 2013 00:39 Henk wrote:On January 19 2013 07:10 FrogOfWar wrote:On January 12 2013 20:48 Natalya wrote:On January 12 2013 13:59 FrogOfWar wrote:
This may be an odd question but it would be great if someone could enlighten me. Somehow when I want to spam infested terrans, the key gets deselected while spamming, so that my infestors only throw one egg and I have to press the infested terran key on the keyboard again to throw more. Somehow this only happens in ladder games. I thought maybe this happens when I accidentally click on an enemy unit, but when I tried this in a game vs ai the problem didn't occur. Or is it when infestors are not in range and the path is blocked or someting? Does anyone else experience this? On January 12 2013 20:11 Immutant wrote:On January 12 2013 18:48 Henk wrote:On January 12 2013 13:59 FrogOfWar wrote:
This may be an odd question but it would be great if someone could enlighten me. Somehow when I want to spam infested terrans, the key gets deselected while spamming, so that my infestors only throw one egg and I have to press the infested terran key on the keyboard again to throw more. Somehow this only happens in ladder games. I thought maybe this happens when I accidentally click on an enemy unit, but when I tried this in a game vs ai the problem didn't occur. Or is it when infestors are not in range and the path is blocked or someting? Does anyone else experience this? In for example roach hydra wars in zvz where you want to spam a lot of infested terrans: press your infestor hotkey (2 for me), then press s (important!) Then hold shift and click T. Keep holding those keys and click like a madman. Yes, if I just go infestor hotkey, and then shift + T, all my infestors would end up retarded and start dancing infront of the Terran army whereby I might as well gg. So, is there really no alternative other than using S or H? There is actually two methods to spam IT. You can either use the shift method as described. Make sure, before you hold shift and press your infested terran hotkey, to order a move command to a place out of range of your ennemy's units. The second method is simply to hold your infested terran hotkey (without any use of shift) and click everywhere you want an infested terran. There's an upside and a downside to this method. First of all, you dont need to hold shift, which is cool, but you are also giving an new order to one of your infestor each time you click, which can lead to less eggs popping. Let's say you have 12 infestors. They are out of range of where you want to pop ur eggs. You select your infestor, hold your infested terran hotkey and click 15 times at a certain place. Only 12 eggs will pop, one per infestor, because when you are clicking the 13th time, you are replacing an old "cast terran egg" order with a new one, thus cancelling the old order. That means that this second method is less efficient if your infestors are not already in range of the place where you want them to spam eggs. I checked again in a replay. The problem is in fact that when I want to throw an infested terran and accidentally click on an enemy unit, which happens when I want infested terrans in their army, that enemy unit gets selected and therefore, since my infestors aren't selected any more, the next clicks do nothing. It was clear from my player cam in the replay how first my group of infestors was selected and when I started spamming, a sequence of opponent units got selected randomly. Weird, I tested for this again vs ai, and there it doesn't happen. Shit, if you're a zerg and can't throw infested terrans into opponents army, you're in trouble. Speaking of trouble, I can't beat terran. I'm in platinum. Most of my platinum zerg and protoss opponents I find ezpz, so that bnet gives me diamond opponents frequently. But I lose to gold terrans in a not even close manner. Yes, I read the guide linked in the OP. The problem basically is that I can't attack the turtle and they only come out of the turtle when they have a death ball that can kill everything I can muster up by just looking at it funny. Well, one of many problems. Talking about mech mostly. For BLs I feel you have to be really rich because you need BLs AND a shit ton of corruptors AND infestors. I don't get that rich before their death ball comes. I tried drops. Drops on their bases to slow them down and buy time, drops on their army to avoid dying on the ground before even touching them. Banelings as well as zerglings and roaches. Doesn't do anything. They just pull their workers and move their army in, anything I damage is repaired. I could drop when they moved out of course, but a base race with a terran seems like a bad idea. I tried early aggression (roach, ling, baneling) on their natural to prevent or delay the death ball phase. And yes, I can shut down their natural for a while, but they push me out eventually, and it doesn't seem to matter. Sorry for the rant, but I'm really frustrated right now. EDIT: I got the solution to the first problem: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295763 Ah, your mech problems. I used to have those. The thing you're doing wrong, and I can guarantee; you're not droning hard enough. Mech can't attack you before like 160 supply. Mech uses banshee and most frequently hellion runbys to hurt your economy. When you scout mech, around 8-9 minutes, make like 10-12 roaches to defend against the hellions, then hold the D button until you have 80 drones on 4 bases. Then pump roaches and get drops/overlord speed. Drop their main, send a pack of roaches to their third. Be sure to inject behind this, because if everything is going well they'll all in with their remaining units. If you don't do that much damage to force them to go all in, tech up to BL while pumping more roaches. You should have 5 bases and 10 gas by now. If you can deny his 4th from going up you'll just easily win. If you're maxed out and want to make BL, just drop some more roaches somewhere. This is what I usually do. I could try to find a replay if you'd like? I'm mid-low masters. This usually works for me; it may not be ideal and if someone wants to correct me somewhere, please do. Edit: Checked for replay, sadly it's already gone and I didn't save it. But this advice might help you nonetheless, I hope! Thanks! You affirm what I was suspecting as well. I'm too scared early game of hellions, banshees, drops and whatever surprises terran might pull off, and therefore play too safe i.e. not greedy enough. I've beaten two meching terrans yesterday and today by saying fuck it, taking an early third and droning hard before thinking of being aggressive. Those were gold, but the concept seemed to make sense. (And as for the surprises, scouting is probably the answer.) Lately I think it also became a mindset thing - if you firmly believe you can't win, then you can't. Thanks again, I'll definitely explore this approach more. Taking your third early really helps. I have died from simple things like hellion/banshee, just because of starting my lair too late and not having an overseer out. By starting your third early, you can throw down a spore which will help immensely against those annoying banshees. Saying 'fuck it' and droning up your third is something you might not want to do though. You want to make sure you actually understand what they're doing by scouting. I usually do the 4 queen build, then take my third when my 3rd and 4th queen are 75% done. Basically; this The Basic Build -15 hatchery -16 spawning pool -2 queens when pool finishes -2 more queens (queen 3/4). Move initial 2 queens after inject to front of natural to begin creep spread (Queen 3/4 will be injecting) -Take third immediately when minerals available (should be ~ when Queen 3/4 are at 50-75% complete) -Take 2 gas at 5:20 -Generally, players gas progression is: Ling Speed, 1/1, start lair (2 more gasses), lair finishes (last 2 gasses) This is the standard build. When you scout mech, I suggest not taking the 5th and 6th gas. Anyway, as I was saying, droning up your third like that will kill you when the terran goes for something like a hellion/marauder all in. One thing that changed my way of approaching ZvT was my change of mindset when I scout a third. When you scout an early third CC, it means you're safe to drone up yourself. When you don't scout an early third, but instead a lot of barracks/stuff being researched, you might want to hold off on droning up your third until it's safe to do so. (So, either scouting an early third, or knowing he's going for mech should give you the impulse to start droning) I hope this helps a little bit!
Yes, that's pretty much the build that I do. I meant I drone up when I scout mech, of course, not blindly.
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In ZvP, what's the best way to handle early zealot aggression? More specifically, chrono'd zealots (3-4 or so) after a FFE and targets the third base? Also, what are some general micro tips to handle early zealot pressure?
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Guys, what's the textbook way of dealing with mutas in zvz assuming that I'm ahead by 5-10 drones then I scout a spire building at 25%?
Am I supposed to get my 3rd up then dump 3 spore before the mutas pop?
Am I supposed to keep denying his 3rd with ling bane?
all in with roach bane through the spines and lings?
Actually I'm more interested in how you guys defend the 3rd. Do you cut drones produce roaches or pull off some drones on gas then spine+spore it up?
My probably outdated textbook that I got from someone here states:
1) I stay on 2 bases,
2) fast tech to infestors (even if I only have < 35 drones)
3) drone up to 60 while getting 6 total queens + 2 spores on each base while spending extra minerals on a dozen spines and maybe lings.
4) push out with 8 infestors+roaches while finally getting my 3rd
Worked from gold to plat until in diamond I realize that the other guy has expos from daybreak to lost temple every time.
halp. Never been so asspained since patch 1.00.
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On January 20 2013 14:54 Reki wrote:
Guys, what's the textbook way of dealing with mutas in zvz assuming that I'm ahead by 5-10 drones then I scout a spire building at 25%?
Am I supposed to get my 3rd up then dump 3 spore before the mutas pop?
Am I supposed to keep denying his 3rd with ling bane?
all in with roach bane through the spines and lings?
Actually I'm more interested in how you guys defend the 3rd. Do you cut drones produce roaches or pull off some drones on gas then spine+spore it up?
My probably outdated textbook that I got from someone here states:
1) I stay on 2 bases,
2) fast tech to infestors (even if I only have < 35 drones)
3) drone up to 60 while getting 6 total queens + 2 spores on each base while spending extra minerals on a dozen spines and maybe lings.
4) push out with 8 infestors+roaches while finally getting my 3rd
Worked from gold to plat until in diamond I realize that the other guy has expos from daybreak to lost temple every time.
halp. Never been so asspained since patch 1.00.
It depends, you have to scout more than just a spire. If he goes for 3 mutas to just clear ovies and force infestors, he can hit a speed roach timing, while you're busy preparing for mass mutas.
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On January 20 2013 15:11 mizU wrote:
It depends, you have to scout more than just a spire. If he goes for 3 mutas to just clear ovies and force infestors, he can hit a speed roach timing, while you're busy preparing for mass mutas.
I constantly scout in zvz to the point of saccing 3 overseers before 15 mins. I would usually see everything and take note of his reaction of me scouting his spire building. Sometimes the 2nd time my overseer flies in I sometimes see his roach warren and an evo chamber jiggling and I would facepalm because I don't know how to take advantage of this. Regardless of what I scout I'm still uncertain what the fuck am I supposed to do if he either gets 8 mutas or roach ling allins me to delete my 3rd + 500 minerals worth of spores/spines + all my units trying to defend it.
halp
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Usually when you scout his spire, you're almost saturated on 2 bases right ? Then go for infestors and 2-3 spores in the main (and probably 1-2 in the natural if you feel like to). Thing is mutas and infestors and to a lesser extent roaches take a lot of gas. So better spend your minerals to 3rd, spore or suicide roaches to kill his 3rd. You have a lot of options really.
And seriously, saccing 3 overseeers ? That's 3 way too much... Why can't you use a changeling that you drop in the edge of his main and send it to the natural while sending the overseer in the main to scout for spire only ? You don't need to scout anything else, since it's either roach or mutas. For the upgrades and everything, you need to get them first before him. Simple as that. If you're lucky, he'll be busy seeing your overseer patroling in the main while you had your changeling going through his ramp and seeing everything on the natural.
Hope it helps 
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About spire zvz, depends if you have your third up already or not. If you do, just make 2 spores per base, tech fast to infestors. Depending if he has lings with his muta or not, you should counter attack to his third if he's further than mid map with his muta. With a bunch of speedroaches, you can force his muta back into defensive position, letting you drone, make infestors and roaches. Later on, add some hydras but dont push, wait him. He should be ahead macrowise as he droned as hard as you before taking the third, but you had to make spores and roaches and he did not.
Try to take a 4rth but at all cost, resist the idea of fungalling his mutas if you can. If you have hydras already, his muta can still not attack into your army. Good spore placement should protect your drone so it means there's no weak points the muta can attack. If you waste fungal on them, it's like they killed your infestors because your infestors wont have fungal in time for next fight. A good muta player will try to sac his muta and make you waste fungals then push with a maxed roach infestor army and rape you because you just used 5 fungals on his mutas. The point is, once they are out and they killed some overlords, let them fly around, they wont kill anything really. Maybe if you can catch them in the range of a spore+a queen + some hydras and kill them with one or two fungals, do it, but dont waste more.
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So yeah basically it comes down to:
Do I have time enough to get infestors out?
Yes=> go infestors & 1-2 Spores per base
No=> go Hydra
F*ck no they're already on way to my base => counter attack his third with your Roach/Ling, pop down spores/Extra queens & go Hydra.
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Thanks guys,
On January 20 2013 16:50 RaiZ wrote:
suicide roaches to kill his 3rd. You have a lot of options really.
On January 20 2013 21:28 Kraelog wrote:
F*ck no they're already on way to my base => counter attack his third with your Roach/Ling
Oh what!? I never thought this was a good idea. Isn't this a roach ling all in? How do you transition into lategame after sniping his 3rd once or twice while he can repeatedly deny my 3rd? What are the steps to secure a third after this?
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The thing is, your third should be up before muta can cancel it. If muta are too early just change your build. It's not hard to know they're going muta once you have speedlings. Scout gas timing at natural. Early 4 gas + no roach = muta = fast third for you (basically you take your third when reaching full saturation on 2 base and before starting roaches, once your third is started you make units to defend it, he should not have more lings than you since he wants to reach full 2 base saturation as well and placing his third before starting ling production).
BUT, if you're still in the dire situation where mutas are flying across the map with ur third 1/2 done (it should be at least 75% done by the time mutas are moving to you), just take whatever roaches you have and attack cross map to try to deny his third. Because ideally what he wants to do with muta is forcing spore and denying any roach timing so that he knows he can drone up to 70 drones, take a 4rth and a macro hatch, all this being done with muta only. If you attack cross map with roaches (I didnt say you should make more roaches or lings, I just said you take whatever you already have and attack), it will force his muta back, or your roaches will deny the third and do real damage to the natural by the time his mutas only deny your third. Since his mutas have to move back, you can bring spores to your third, drone, make infestors, etc etc. You'll lose your roaches ofcourse, but you dont have the choice.
Just one more tip if you're struggling with mutas, try to research +1 carapace first. Mutas absolutely cant kill roaches with +1 armor (I think they reach 3 armor is that it?). And it's not weak against zerglings or roaches openings. And that bonus armor will make your roach counter attack be more effective.
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Even if your 3rd isn't done before the mutalisks arrive, you shouldhave an overlord or two sitting there dropping creep while the 3rd is building, so you can start making spores before it finishes, so you don't need to cancel.
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Am I totally screwed if I go roaches into mutas in general?
I see people commenting on "too many roaches" when they are in mirror matches ZvZ.
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On January 21 2013 05:30 KAB00000000M wrote:
Am I totally screwed if I go roaches into mutas in general?
I see people commenting on "too many roaches" when they are in mirror matches ZvZ.
Roaches into mutas? I don't see why you want roaches when you're planning on going mutas, unless you're using them to hold some kind of all in or timing, and then transitioning into mutas. Roaches cost gas, and you want to use you gas on mutas.
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On January 20 2013 21:10 Natalya wrote:
Later on, add some hydras but dont push, wait him. He should be ahead macrowise as he droned as hard as you before taking the third, but you had to make spores and roaches and he did not.
Oh goddamn it, this is where I always go wrong. I was given the impression that I'm always ahead whenever I scout the spire 25-50% done. So the most standard procedure in this scenario is to get the 3rd and 4th while denying his 3rd? I never realized that a person getting mutas in zvz is immune to pushes for that long period of time.
I also have to admit I never thought of using an overlord to shit creep to build earlier spores and a spine. I should have been doing this on all matchups.
One last question. How fucked am I and what are my options other than the surrender button if mutas denied my 3rd and I feel that I don't have enough units to successfully deny his 3rd?
On January 20 2013 16:50 RaiZ wrote:
Why can't you use a changeling that you drop in the edge of his main and send it to the natural
holy fuck I'm so fucking retarded for not thinking of fucking doing this ever since fucking wood league. thanks for the tip.
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Bio.
How the almighty fuck do I deal with Terran bio?
I haven't played in some time and I'm just getting back into it. My skills have clearly dropped and I suspect the community at large has improved. I'm at the point where Terran makes me want to put my fist through the fucking monitor because it feels like I'm fighting MMM with ling, bane, infestor, BL - pretty much anything I can throw at it.
I go banes, they spread or sutter-step back and it isn't cost effective for me. I go infestor and they die after a fungal or two due to shitty range and/or small groups spread and focusing them down. After a few engagements, I've done a lot of fungal damage but lost my infestors - so I've essentially traded gas for mineral units. Not good.
It's just wave after wave after wave of bio. I don't know how to be aggressive early, I don't feel as though I can be without gimping my econ. I don't know how to thwart the tide of mass infantry all game long.
I've politely asked Terran players what I should do differently (I play Terran myself but not like that) and they just say something along the lines of "Zerg OP, you suck noob."
So, yeah, I suck - but a little help would be great. Please. Before I break something.
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On January 21 2013 10:46 Reki wrote:
One last question. How fucked am I and what are my options other than the surrender button if mutas denied my 3rd and I feel that I don't have enough units to successfully deny his 3rd?
Since you are very behind your only options is to drag out the game as long as possible to the point where you're both maxed and have a bank so that his advantage is not really relevant anymore. Try to mass lots of infestors, take your third and fourth, and wait for him to attack you with his maxed army. With good infestor micro, proper concave and shorter reinforcement distance you have a good chance of holding it off and then you're even or slightly ahead.
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EPT
