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On January 21 2013 16:58 Mjolnir wrote:
Bio.
How the almighty fuck do I deal with Terran bio?
I haven't played in some time and I'm just getting back into it. My skills have clearly dropped and I suspect the community at large has improved. I'm at the point where Terran makes me want to put my fist through the fucking monitor because it feels like I'm fighting MMM with ling, bane, infestor, BL - pretty much anything I can throw at it.
I go banes, they spread or sutter-step back and it isn't cost effective for me. I go infestor and they die after a fungal or two due to shitty range and/or small groups spread and focusing them down. After a few engagements, I've done a lot of fungal damage but lost my infestors - so I've essentially traded gas for mineral units. Not good.
It's just wave after wave after wave of bio. I don't know how to be aggressive early, I don't feel as though I can be without gimping my econ. I don't know how to thwart the tide of mass infantry all game long.
I've politely asked Terran players what I should do differently (I play Terran myself but not like that) and they just say something along the lines of "Zerg OP, you suck noob."
So, yeah, I suck - but a little help would be great. Please. Before I break something.
Give us some replays then, "I Suck" doesn't really give a lot of room for constructive feedback 
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France1806 Posts
I have the same problems against Bio. I heard that going muta/ling/bane with a bit of infestor support is better than ling/infestor with bane support.
I met a lot of terrans doing mass raven recently. And it seems SOOOOOOO OP. Like, even fungle wasnt broken like this. 100 stackable damages ? Seriously ?! And turrets with the +5 armor ?!
lol.
User was warned for this post
EDIT : Just so that it doesnt look like balance whine, i'd like to ask a question. Any zerg by there played against mass raven ? How did you react ?
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Mass Ravens is a strategy that is easy to beat. Basically the Terran is unkillable if he has 20+ Ravens with full energy. So just kill him before he has them.
When you scout mech/air from terran immediatly research drops & mass Roaches. Then start flooding/dropping roaches four bases until he drops dead. It's that simple. The first wave will get destroyed by seekers missiles/turret spam, but after that the Ravens don't have any energy left so just keep pounding until he breaks.
If he went heavy siege tank into Air, just drop 40 roaches on his tanks.
Edit: muta/infestor/bling is not better then infestor/sling/blind for the simple reason that those muta's should be more infestors.
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France1806 Posts
On January 21 2013 19:16 Kraelog wrote:
Mass Ravens is a strategy that is easy to beat. Basically the Terran is unkillable if he has 20+ Ravens with full energy. So just kill him before he has them.
When you scout mech/air from terran immediatly research drops & mass Roaches. Then start flooding/dropping roaches four bases until he drops dead. It's that simple. The first wave will get destroyed by seekers missiles/turret spam, but after that the Ravens don't have any energy left so just keep pounding until he breaks.
If he went heavy siege tank into Air, just drop 40 roaches on his tanks.
Edit: muta/infestor/bling is not better then infestor/sling/blind for the simple reason that those muta's should be more infestors.
The problem is that the terran i met played bio while producing ravens.
Turtle + constantly trading bio. And when i get the the T3, 20 ravens were already ready.
That looks like a very strong strategy, anticipating the fact that the zerg will always try to get to the lategame. And then, ravens are already ready, full energy, ready to destroy everything...
From a theorcrafting pov, it looks like there is no hardcounter to this tactic. And as zerg, i'd need to have a huge fungle on the ravens and destroy them with corruptors. The problem is still that bio is always near, ready to amove. :/
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If the terran can evenly trade Bio with you while building up 20 ravens then you're trading veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery badly.
Can you post a replay for us to review?
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1) I am in gold league and I use infestors quite alot in my games (in every matchup) however, I feel like infestors are suicidal units when I want to fungal the oponent. I have my main attack force on 1, my casters on 2 and my air or flanking squad on 3. So I put infestors on 2, separate from 1. even though they are on different control groups, for my infestors to fungal they need to get in a range but when they do the enemy A-move AI sets the 'festor as a priority so after if fungals it dies on its return to the pack of infestors at the back of my army, so basically how do I make my infestors not die when I fungal? is there anyway or do i just have to rely on luck??
2) how do I punish an enemy fast expansion (in ZvT and ZvP). they wall off with cannons forges bunkers etc so i cant get in and by the time I can optimally get harrassment units like nydus worms or mutas, they have an army to counter it. Don't get me wrong, I like when they do an FE because it allows me to play greedy and i love playing greedy (usually I get 4 bases before the 8 min mark) but sometimes I dont want the long macro games where I just outright roflstomp the opposing 2-base-hero. I like baneling busting terrans then sending a swarm of speedlings into their base but what can i do against protoss? they get a zealot and sentries and they forcefield my stuff away while the cannons snipe me. Oh and also how do i be aggressive against a 2 base terran, usually they try and turtle up and they are protected with siege tanks and bunkers with missile turrets and it's annoying because i feel it wastes my time when they try and drop me but because i have so many bases they dont know where to drop me so instead of leaving they just keep trying.
3) Is there anyway to kill a protoss deathball without going broodlord infestor? usually if they do an immortal sentry push (not all in) I kill it with ling roach hydra but behind that they are getting collosus and gateway units - forming the standard deathball... Broodlord infestor with roach hydra ling support is quite effective but I just hate using broodlords, they're too slow for me. So what counter to the collosus stalker deathball is there that isnt BL-I
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1) Infestor micro
Well as you said, move forward with the infestor, fungal & run back while the rest of your army covers its retreat. It's an extremely hard thing to do and everyone, from low bronze to S-class GSL players lose Infestors simply due to mismicro. But in many matchups infestor retention can mean the diference between victory & defeat.
2) Punishing Expo
Basically your opportunies for punishing a greedy Expo by Terran or Protoss are mainly decided by your BO. Assuming you take the most economic one (standard 3h zvp, & 15h in zvt) you can only really harass with slings from 7mins or Roaches from 10min+.
But why would you go allin on them? Zerg has the most explosive economy when not harassed and when they take a risky expo, you can take another base and drone to 90 in peace. Then with a superior economy you can crush them in the midgame.
3) Well overall BL/Infestors is just the best army. It is possible to kill a standard deathball with a goofy Ultra/bane compo or something but overall BL/Infestor is the only army composition which is superior against any Protoss deathball (Air toss is another discussion).
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Hi everyone,
I have been playing Starcraft 2 for 6 months, and currently a Zerg player in mid/high Plat
I have 2 questions:
- As a Plat/ potiental Diamond player, what should I focus: macro? strat? micro? apm?
- Would someone please check my replay with this Diamond Protoss (http://drop.sc/297305) and give me some MAJOR advices so I don't be in that dangerous situation anymore. I know I have tons of mistake, but what is the main and most important mistake I need to fix first?
Thank you very much TL users, you are awesome!
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On January 21 2013 22:33 FireMonkey wrote:
1) I am in gold league and I use infestors quite alot in my games (in every matchup) however, I feel like infestors are suicidal units when I want to fungal the oponent. I have my main attack force on 1, my casters on 2 and my air or flanking squad on 3. So I put infestors on 2, separate from 1. even though they are on different control groups, for my infestors to fungal they need to get in a range but when they do the enemy A-move AI sets the 'festor as a priority so after if fungals it dies on its return to the pack of infestors at the back of my army, so basically how do I make my infestors not die when I fungal? is there anyway or do i just have to rely on luck??
2) how do I punish an enemy fast expansion (in ZvT and ZvP). they wall off with cannons forges bunkers etc so i cant get in and by the time I can optimally get harrassment units like nydus worms or mutas, they have an army to counter it. Don't get me wrong, I like when they do an FE because it allows me to play greedy and i love playing greedy (usually I get 4 bases before the 8 min mark) but sometimes I dont want the long macro games where I just outright roflstomp the opposing 2-base-hero. I like baneling busting terrans then sending a swarm of speedlings into their base but what can i do against protoss? they get a zealot and sentries and they forcefield my stuff away while the cannons snipe me. Oh and also how do i be aggressive against a 2 base terran, usually they try and turtle up and they are protected with siege tanks and bunkers with missile turrets and it's annoying because i feel it wastes my time when they try and drop me but because i have so many bases they dont know where to drop me so instead of leaving they just keep trying.
3) Is there anyway to kill a protoss deathball without going broodlord infestor? usually if they do an immortal sentry push (not all in) I kill it with ling roach hydra but behind that they are getting collosus and gateway units - forming the standard deathball... Broodlord infestor with roach hydra ling support is quite effective but I just hate using broodlords, they're too slow for me. So what counter to the collosus stalker deathball is there that isnt BL-I
1) Depends on the match up. I'd say you should step up your micro (use some micro trainer or something if need be). Against terran, you can fungal everything except tank from a safety distance. It just takes practice to fungal from the right range and retreat. Against protoss it's the same and against Zerg as well, except for collossus and other infestors. It can be ok-ish to suicide your infestor to fungal if the other guy is basically all-in (meaning you wont be fighting later, so dead infestors dont really matter). Another solution, ofcourse, is to attack with units before you fungal, so ur lings or roaches takes the damage and your infestors fungal from safety.
2) The most reliable way to punish an expansion is honestly to overdrone your opponent. Being agressive is not nearly as efficient an answer.
3) you either kill it with spine/corruptor/infestor or brood/infestor queen or brood/infestor roach (for better mobility). Mid game pushes are held with spine infestor corruptor.
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On January 22 2013 00:29 MasterDrone wrote:
Hi everyone,
I have been playing Starcraft 2 for 6 months, and currently a Zerg player in mid/high Plat
I have 2 questions:
- As a Plat/ potiental Diamond player, what should I focus: macro? strat? micro? apm?
- Would someone please check my replay with this Diamond Protoss (http://drop.sc/297305) and give me some MAJOR advices so I don't be in that dangerous situation anymore. I know I have tons of mistake, but what is the main and most important mistake I need to fix first?
Thank you very much TL users, you are awesome!
Macro Macro Macro. You cant focus on something like apm. Apm will come as you focus on macro and creep spread. Try to follow the evolution of the meta game by watching pro replays.
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On January 21 2013 16:58 Mjolnir wrote:
Bio.
How the almighty fuck do I deal with Terran bio?
I haven't played in some time and I'm just getting back into it. My skills have clearly dropped and I suspect the community at large has improved. I'm at the point where Terran makes me want to put my fist through the fucking monitor because it feels like I'm fighting MMM with ling, bane, infestor, BL - pretty much anything I can throw at it.
I go banes, they spread or sutter-step back and it isn't cost effective for me. I go infestor and they die after a fungal or two due to shitty range and/or small groups spread and focusing them down. After a few engagements, I've done a lot of fungal damage but lost my infestors - so I've essentially traded gas for mineral units. Not good.
It's just wave after wave after wave of bio. I don't know how to be aggressive early, I don't feel as though I can be without gimping my econ. I don't know how to thwart the tide of mass infantry all game long.
I've politely asked Terran players what I should do differently (I play Terran myself but not like that) and they just say something along the lines of "Zerg OP, you suck noob."
So, yeah, I suck - but a little help would be great. Please. Before I break something.
Master Zerg here ... I'll give you a few things to focus on when dealing with a highly mobile and efficeint Terran bio army.
# 1 - Creep Spread IMO, one of the most important, yet overlooked factors....
This is especially significant against a terran bio army for many reasons: increases effectiveness of banelings by helping them connect before dying, alerts you to enemy position, helps you surround their army much quicker, slows their advance by forcing them to kill tumors, and forces scans instead of mules which would've translated to more marines. Not only is your army literally more effective on creep, but you as a player can be more effective with all that added map awareness by determining much more easily when it's safe to drone and when you have to make units.
Having creep spread across 50% of the map makes a world of difference versus just connecting your bases. You'll be able to pick and choose your battle by feigning an attack then moving back to wait for reinforcements. When you finally do commit, you will be able to crash into your oppopent with 30% faster move speed! In summation, if you're not defending on creep, you're doing something wrong.
#2 - Upgrades - Double Pump your melee and carapace upgrades. They should be ahead of, or on par with Terran's upgrades. You should never be behind, and if you are, it's a very uphill battle because of how efficeint Terran bio is and how inefficeint ling/bling is.
#3 - Production - You should have a macro hatch for every 2 bases. If you're floating lots of money and simply don't have the larvae to build more lings, the most productive (get it?) thing you can do with it is build another macro hatch.
Here are a couple of my favorite reasons for macro hatches, besides the obvious additional larvae: by placing my macro hatch right next to my mining hatch, Terran killing that mining hatchery is much less effective (in my experience, Terran doesn't try as hard to snipe a mining hatch if they see a macro hatch next to it), and a macro hatch acts as a "retard magnet" because AI or my opponent himself will attack whatever it sees first, and it buys me time to mobilize an army.
#4 - Units / Decision-Making - In general, if Terran stays on low tech, then you want to focus on mining minerals. Your army composition should have a few infestors and banelings, with a ton of upgraded lings to overwhelm his low tier units. Bio is screwed, especially on creep, because they're either forced to split which helps lings surround, or stay together and let FG and Blings kill them. If you don't have enough lings, bio will just split and own you.
You only really need a lot of gas (aka, Ultras or BLs) to deal with tanks. Focus on the correct resource!
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On January 21 2013 16:58 Mjolnir wrote:
Bio.
How the almighty fuck do I deal with Terran bio?
I haven't played in some time and I'm just getting back into it. My skills have clearly dropped and I suspect the community at large has improved. I'm at the point where Terran makes me want to put my fist through the fucking monitor because it feels like I'm fighting MMM with ling, bane, infestor, BL - pretty much anything I can throw at it.
I go banes, they spread or sutter-step back and it isn't cost effective for me. I go infestor and they die after a fungal or two due to shitty range and/or small groups spread and focusing them down. After a few engagements, I've done a lot of fungal damage but lost my infestors - so I've essentially traded gas for mineral units. Not good.
It's just wave after wave after wave of bio. I don't know how to be aggressive early, I don't feel as though I can be without gimping my econ. I don't know how to thwart the tide of mass infantry all game long.
I've politely asked Terran players what I should do differently (I play Terran myself but not like that) and they just say something along the lines of "Zerg OP, you suck noob."
So, yeah, I suck - but a little help would be great. Please. Before I break something.
Just from what you said, i'd say your problem is you're not greedy enough or you're not spending your ressources enough or both. ling infestor into ultra or broods should deal with bio. You can use banelings but you dont have to. Dont stay on lair tech forever, because in the long run you'll die. You need hive but once you have hive you're at an advantage. Oh, and your infestor should never die to bio ever. They outrange marines clearly and can stop marauders from running into them.
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Hi, could you guys help me analize what I did wrong? I'm high platinum, this is ZvP and I was trying to use stephano max roach style.
Did I lose because of bad enganment or did I do more wrong decisions?
http://drop.sc/297397
What I did wrong (IMO):
- bad creep spread
- no scouting
Thanks.
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On January 22 2013 06:46 kuebk wrote:Hi, could you guys help me analize what I did wrong? I'm high platinum, this is ZvP and I was trying to use stephano max roach style. Did I lose because of bad enganment or did I do more wrong decisions? http://drop.sc/297397What I did wrong (IMO): - bad creep spread - no scouting Thanks.
Concerning Macro,
at 7.00 you have 46 supply and LESS workers than the protoss. That's bad. You need to get it to 51-54 at the very least. You stay on 51 workers which is extremely low for 3bases.
Concerning the Protoss,
You want to do a Stephano Roach Max, but you don't have a clue what the protoss is doing. You have 2 OL waiting in excellent positions but you never send them in. Send in 2 OL at 7.15-7.30 so you know what he is doing. Here he is preparing an immortal/sentry allin, so going mass Roach is good. But SCOUT MORE
Concerning the fight,
In the first engagement you kill 4 sentry's and he uses a lot of FF's so that GOOD. If you'd attacked him from two sides when he crossed the map, you would have crushed him. Instead you retreat in a corner so he can slice & dice your army with the new sentry's he warped and STILL he barely makes it.
So overal, focus on MACRO!, scout and flank any Protoss push from at least two sides.
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Hey, Id like to ask how to deal with 3 base push from P. (the game is high master so it shouldnt be that painful to watch)
http://drop.sc/297425
I droned up quite okay, took reasonably fast fourth, had good infestor count but i lost to 3base immortal/blink push.
My biggest mistakes were probably the early roaches after the ling poke -> could have been eco/tech
And the very long gap on my double evo after 1/1.
I had somewhat good fight even though the flank could have been better and my ITs should have probably been more "in his face". <- that was partially caused because i thought he would go for natural so i end up in no good flank position. (but the fight is still not as bad)
Other than that im pretty clueless, if theres any major mistake Im not seeing...
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On January 22 2013 08:01 Veriol wrote:Hey, Id like to ask how to deal with 3 base push from P. (the game is high master so it shouldnt be that painful to watch) http://drop.sc/297425I droned up quite okay, took reasonably fast fourth, had good infestor count but i lost to 3base immortal/blink push. My biggest mistakes were probably the early roaches after the ling poke -> could have been eco/tech And the very long gap on my double evo after 1/1. I had somewhat good fight even though the flank could have been better and my ITs should have probably been more "in his face". <- that was partially caused because i thought he would go for natural so i end up in no good flank position. (but the fight is still not as bad) Other than that im pretty clueless, if theres any major mistake Im not seeing...
Let me try to add some meaningful points.
As you said stocking up larva & only making roaches would probably have been better, but the fear of the immo/sentry allin can be strong . Aside from that you played a very good game.
I believe you lost due to a late Hive. The Protoss scouted the late GS and took the timing window to kill you.
At 10.21 you see the Protoss clearing his third so you can be sure he isn't going allin. But your infestation pit only starts at 11.26. That's 1.05 mins lost. You start your Hive 2 secs after the Pit is done so that's great. The spire/hive are ready at 14.05 and you start your GS at 14.20.
So in total your Greater Spire was delayed by 1.20 mins and pops at 16.02 when you just lost the main battle & game. I feel if the GS finished at 14.40 you could have had BL outs at 15.15, just in time to hold the Protoss allin.
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On January 22 2013 08:26 Kraelog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 08:01 Veriol wrote:Hey, Id like to ask how to deal with 3 base push from P. (the game is high master so it shouldnt be that painful to watch) http://drop.sc/297425I droned up quite okay, took reasonably fast fourth, had good infestor count but i lost to 3base immortal/blink push. My biggest mistakes were probably the early roaches after the ling poke -> could have been eco/tech And the very long gap on my double evo after 1/1. I had somewhat good fight even though the flank could have been better and my ITs should have probably been more "in his face". <- that was partially caused because i thought he would go for natural so i end up in no good flank position. (but the fight is still not as bad) Other than that im pretty clueless, if theres any major mistake Im not seeing... Let me try to add some meaningful points. As you said stocking up larva & only making roaches would probably have been better, but the fear of the immo/sentry allin can be strong . Aside from that you played a very good game. I believe you lost due to a late Hive. The Protoss scouted the late GS and took the timing window to kill you. At 10.21 you see the Protoss clearing his third so you can be sure he isn't going allin. But your infestation pit only starts at 11.26. That's 1.05 mins lost. You start your Hive 2 secs after the Pit is done so that's great. The spire/hive are ready at 14.05 and you start your GS at 14.20. So in total your Greater Spire was delayed by 1.20 mins and pops at 16.02 when you just lost the main battle & game. I feel if the GS finished at 14.40 you could have had BL outs at 15.15, just in time to hold the Protoss allin.
Yeah it could have been it, im gonna double check if i would have had gas for the BLs inb4 the push (because my 4th was kinda delayed - i saw alot of immos).
I felt my Hive was a bit late that was probably mistake .. and probably caused because i made so many roaches focusing on agression.
Thanks Ill try to work on that.
EDIT: Do you think the roach/ling/infestor would have done it IF i had better fight? Players like HyuN/Life play later hive with more emphasis on roach/ling/infestor/(corruptor) armies with havier upgrades. The style we are discussing here is more Scarlett/Suppy style i believe.
I think i got caught up in middle of things (not fast enough BL rush(scarlett style) and not fast enough upgrades and army(hyun style)) ... So it ended up badly.
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So I feel rushing to hive/GS leaves you open to a huge timing window in zvp. What a lot of pros are doing, and I am doing as well, is getting spire, then getting hive afterwards to be able to get corruptors out in time for his timing attack to kill the colossi. Most tosses will scout your hive, which gives them the impulse to push.
So; hive/spire at the same time, or spire before hive?
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On January 22 2013 09:11 Henk wrote:
So I feel rushing to hive/GS leaves you open to a huge timing window in zvp. What a lot of pros are doing, and I am doing as well, is getting spire, then getting hive afterwards to be able to get corruptors out in time for his timing attack to kill the colossi. Most tosses will scout your hive, which gives them the impulse to push.
So; hive/spire at the same time, or spire before hive?
Yeah this basically sums up the two different approaches of transitioning into late game. You have
1) "Scarlett" approach -> see 3rd take 4/5th base, get really fast Hive (11:30ish) make later double evo so you can supplement more Infestors (go around 10-12ish infestors) at around 14 minutes grab 4-5 spines at possible attack paths/ fighting places. Proceed to englarge the BL count slowly while getting the upgrades.
2) "HyuN" appraoch -> see 3rd make some roaches. Pressure the P be sure to take very early double evo for quick upgrades. Start 4th make some roach ling (160ish supply) start infestor pit "late" around 13 minutes+spire. Proceed to nearly max out on infestor(around 8-10)/roach/ling with decent upgrades before going into Hive. Be agressive and basically meet his push in middle of map rather than defending it.
Thats how i see it.
EDIT: The HyuN aproach is generaly better vs 3base pushes. The scarlett one is better vs P going 4th MS and late late game.
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EPT
