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On January 14 2013 09:45 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 09:13 Henk wrote:
I still have a bit of a hard time holding mass ling all ins in ZvZ. I dislike ling-bling wars and would like to get to the midgame ASAP. Preferably roach-inf, sometimes 8 muta into roach-inf. I thought about doing 15P 16H 18G every game, to be safe from annoying 10 pools and stuff. Thing is; even with the 2 queens on the ramp + a spine I still sometimes lose to mass speedlings. It's kinda hard to scout, because my speed is only just done when their attack hits and queens chase away my scouting overlord. Therefore I figured I'd go baneling nest first from now on. But this really hurts my scouting because I have a later lingspeed. What should I be doing to be safe from this annoying early aggression? Just go with nest first? (I know I asked a similar question some pages ago, but I am still confused.) Unless you really face a ton of those early ling all ins dont open bling nest first, ling speed is more important most of the time. The best way to deal with it would be to make 2 lings and scout his base, its very easy to recognize this all in by very early speed in production and drones pulled of gas. Another sign is his natural hatchery timing. Since he is taking his gas early his natural will be a bit later than yours so always check it. Third hint is the queen you mentioned, shooting at your overlord to deny visions, very rarely you will see ppl do it without following it with an all in. As for defense, put your spine close to hatchery and bling nest so it cant be sourrounded, make a pair of lings around 5:20 and have them on your ramp behind your queens so they are ready to morph into banes, once you block the ramp with queens leave few drones in front of them and hold position, this way he will have to manually target them which should buy you enough time to morhp banes.
I'm pretty sure henk is talking about a mass ling allin off a hatch first and not off a gas/pool or pool/gas opener. It works because it looks pretty normal to the scouting lings but they cut drones at around 20 and try to run in with a ton of Speedlings right as metabolic boost finishes. If you cut corners on defense you will get wrecked. For 15p 16h you should have enough time to go speed then baneling nest and have the baneling nest finish in time. Though you will probably need to block the ramp with queens for the banelings to morph. On some maps you can place your overlords behind the natural minerals and you can scout them not adding drones. I've also seen IdrA send a second set of zerglings to scout on his stream. That is pretty good at catching them building up zerglings, although that is probably a bit overly defensive and it doesn't change the fact that you need a baneling nest.
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On January 14 2013 23:59 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 09:45 syriuszonito wrote:On January 14 2013 09:13 Henk wrote:
I still have a bit of a hard time holding mass ling all ins in ZvZ. I dislike ling-bling wars and would like to get to the midgame ASAP. Preferably roach-inf, sometimes 8 muta into roach-inf. I thought about doing 15P 16H 18G every game, to be safe from annoying 10 pools and stuff. Thing is; even with the 2 queens on the ramp + a spine I still sometimes lose to mass speedlings. It's kinda hard to scout, because my speed is only just done when their attack hits and queens chase away my scouting overlord. Therefore I figured I'd go baneling nest first from now on. But this really hurts my scouting because I have a later lingspeed. What should I be doing to be safe from this annoying early aggression? Just go with nest first? (I know I asked a similar question some pages ago, but I am still confused.) Unless you really face a ton of those early ling all ins dont open bling nest first, ling speed is more important most of the time. The best way to deal with it would be to make 2 lings and scout his base, its very easy to recognize this all in by very early speed in production and drones pulled of gas. Another sign is his natural hatchery timing. Since he is taking his gas early his natural will be a bit later than yours so always check it. Third hint is the queen you mentioned, shooting at your overlord to deny visions, very rarely you will see ppl do it without following it with an all in. As for defense, put your spine close to hatchery and bling nest so it cant be sourrounded, make a pair of lings around 5:20 and have them on your ramp behind your queens so they are ready to morph into banes, once you block the ramp with queens leave few drones in front of them and hold position, this way he will have to manually target them which should buy you enough time to morhp banes. I'm pretty sure henk is talking about a mass ling allin off a hatch first and not off a gas/pool or pool/gas opener. It works because it looks pretty normal to the scouting lings but they cut drones at around 20 and try to run in with a ton of Speedlings right as metabolic boost finishes. If you cut corners on defense you will get wrecked. For 15p 16h you should have enough time to go speed then baneling nest and have the baneling nest finish in time. Though you will probably need to block the ramp with queens for the banelings to morph. On some maps you can place your overlords behind the natural minerals and you can scout them not adding drones. I've also seen IdrA send a second set of zerglings to scout on his stream. That is pretty good at catching them building up zerglings, although that is probably a bit overly defensive and it doesn't change the fact that you need a baneling nest.
Yeah, exactly. Scouting the natural mineral line can be really tough though, on some maps. Also this means my spotting overlord has to move and check the drones - which means lings could sneak by through the front unnoticed. Sending in early lings to scout what he's doing is something I should be doing more though.
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On January 14 2013 23:59 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 09:45 syriuszonito wrote:On January 14 2013 09:13 Henk wrote:
I still have a bit of a hard time holding mass ling all ins in ZvZ. I dislike ling-bling wars and would like to get to the midgame ASAP. Preferably roach-inf, sometimes 8 muta into roach-inf. I thought about doing 15P 16H 18G every game, to be safe from annoying 10 pools and stuff. Thing is; even with the 2 queens on the ramp + a spine I still sometimes lose to mass speedlings. It's kinda hard to scout, because my speed is only just done when their attack hits and queens chase away my scouting overlord. Therefore I figured I'd go baneling nest first from now on. But this really hurts my scouting because I have a later lingspeed. What should I be doing to be safe from this annoying early aggression? Just go with nest first? (I know I asked a similar question some pages ago, but I am still confused.) Unless you really face a ton of those early ling all ins dont open bling nest first, ling speed is more important most of the time. The best way to deal with it would be to make 2 lings and scout his base, its very easy to recognize this all in by very early speed in production and drones pulled of gas. Another sign is his natural hatchery timing. Since he is taking his gas early his natural will be a bit later than yours so always check it. Third hint is the queen you mentioned, shooting at your overlord to deny visions, very rarely you will see ppl do it without following it with an all in. As for defense, put your spine close to hatchery and bling nest so it cant be sourrounded, make a pair of lings around 5:20 and have them on your ramp behind your queens so they are ready to morph into banes, once you block the ramp with queens leave few drones in front of them and hold position, this way he will have to manually target them which should buy you enough time to morhp banes. I'm pretty sure henk is talking about a mass ling allin off a hatch first and not off a gas/pool or pool/gas opener. It works because it looks pretty normal to the scouting lings but they cut drones at around 20 and try to run in with a ton of Speedlings right as metabolic boost finishes. If you cut corners on defense you will get wrecked. For 15p 16h you should have enough time to go speed then baneling nest and have the baneling nest finish in time. Though you will probably need to block the ramp with queens for the banelings to morph. On some maps you can place your overlords behind the natural minerals and you can scout them not adding drones. I've also seen IdrA send a second set of zerglings to scout on his stream. That is pretty good at catching them building up zerglings, although that is probably a bit overly defensive and it doesn't change the fact that you need a baneling nest.
Well that all in even easier to stop, with a hatch first opening you will almost always get a scout of his gas with your first overlord so there is no need to make early lings just be extra careful if its hatch/gas/pool. It hits ~20 secs later than the pool/gas version so just a standard queen block will give you enough time to get banelings out.
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i played a 4v4 and got attacked by mass void rays. like 20+ i ended up having a great comp to deal with it tho so it wasnt a problem. I was making an army of muta/hydra/ling/bling. when he attacked it was so nice to watch my army tear his apart. what i thought was cool was how the hydras hid under the mutas and you couldnt really tell they were there. my question: is there a safe build to implement this into 1v1's? i really like how this army felt, anyone try it?
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On January 15 2013 04:03 junelua wrote:
i played a 4v4 and got attacked by mass void rays. like 20+ i ended up having a great comp to deal with it tho so it wasnt a problem. I was making an army of muta/hydra/ling/bling. when he attacked it was so nice to watch my army tear his apart. what i thought was cool was how the hydras hid under the mutas and you couldnt really tell they were there. my question: is there a safe build to implement this into 1v1's? i really like how this army felt, anyone try it?
Euhm a safe build to implement hydra/muta/bling? Assuming you play versus AI, expand and take lots of gas.
In 1v1, Storm, Fungal & Tank shots will obliterate you since its an extremely fragile army.
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On January 15 2013 04:03 junelua wrote:
i played a 4v4 and got attacked by mass void rays. like 20+ i ended up having a great comp to deal with it tho so it wasnt a problem. I was making an army of muta/hydra/ling/bling. when he attacked it was so nice to watch my army tear his apart. what i thought was cool was how the hydras hid under the mutas and you couldnt really tell they were there. my question: is there a safe build to implement this into 1v1's? i really like how this army felt, anyone try it?
Mutas, hydras and banelings cost a shitton of gas. So realistically no, unless you somehow have 7 bases before your opponents decides to attack.
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On January 15 2013 01:20 syriuszonito wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 23:59 MstrJinbo wrote:On January 14 2013 09:45 syriuszonito wrote:On January 14 2013 09:13 Henk wrote:
I still have a bit of a hard time holding mass ling all ins in ZvZ. I dislike ling-bling wars and would like to get to the midgame ASAP. Preferably roach-inf, sometimes 8 muta into roach-inf. I thought about doing 15P 16H 18G every game, to be safe from annoying 10 pools and stuff. Thing is; even with the 2 queens on the ramp + a spine I still sometimes lose to mass speedlings. It's kinda hard to scout, because my speed is only just done when their attack hits and queens chase away my scouting overlord. Therefore I figured I'd go baneling nest first from now on. But this really hurts my scouting because I have a later lingspeed. What should I be doing to be safe from this annoying early aggression? Just go with nest first? (I know I asked a similar question some pages ago, but I am still confused.) Unless you really face a ton of those early ling all ins dont open bling nest first, ling speed is more important most of the time. The best way to deal with it would be to make 2 lings and scout his base, its very easy to recognize this all in by very early speed in production and drones pulled of gas. Another sign is his natural hatchery timing. Since he is taking his gas early his natural will be a bit later than yours so always check it. Third hint is the queen you mentioned, shooting at your overlord to deny visions, very rarely you will see ppl do it without following it with an all in. As for defense, put your spine close to hatchery and bling nest so it cant be sourrounded, make a pair of lings around 5:20 and have them on your ramp behind your queens so they are ready to morph into banes, once you block the ramp with queens leave few drones in front of them and hold position, this way he will have to manually target them which should buy you enough time to morhp banes. I'm pretty sure henk is talking about a mass ling allin off a hatch first and not off a gas/pool or pool/gas opener. It works because it looks pretty normal to the scouting lings but they cut drones at around 20 and try to run in with a ton of Speedlings right as metabolic boost finishes. If you cut corners on defense you will get wrecked. For 15p 16h you should have enough time to go speed then baneling nest and have the baneling nest finish in time. Though you will probably need to block the ramp with queens for the banelings to morph. On some maps you can place your overlords behind the natural minerals and you can scout them not adding drones. I've also seen IdrA send a second set of zerglings to scout on his stream. That is pretty good at catching them building up zerglings, although that is probably a bit overly defensive and it doesn't change the fact that you need a baneling nest. Well that all in even easier to stop, with a hatch first opening you will almost always get a scout of his gas with your first overlord so there is no need to make early lings just be extra careful if its hatch/gas/pool. It hits ~20 secs later than the pool/gas version so just a standard queen block will give you enough time to get banelings out.
One thing to note about the hatch pool gas variety is that it is possible for there to be banelings at that timing too (I'm thinking of a game Ror0 vs IdrA in the BWC) so its good to keep that in mind if doing the hold position drones in front of the queens
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On January 14 2013 09:13 Henk wrote:
I still have a bit of a hard time holding mass ling all ins in ZvZ. I dislike ling-bling wars and would like to get to the midgame ASAP. Preferably roach-inf, sometimes 8 muta into roach-inf. I thought about doing 15P 16H 18G every game, to be safe from annoying 10 pools and stuff. Thing is; even with the 2 queens on the ramp + a spine I still sometimes lose to mass speedlings. It's kinda hard to scout, because my speed is only just done when their attack hits and queens chase away my scouting overlord. Therefore I figured I'd go baneling nest first from now on. But this really hurts my scouting because I have a later lingspeed. What should I be doing to be safe from this annoying early aggression? Just go with nest first? (I know I asked a similar question some pages ago, but I am still confused.)
First of all your build is taking too late of a gas. You can go Stephano's 14 pool 16 hatch 15 drone 16 queen 16 ol 16 gas 15 drone for a faster gas. Or go 15 pool 16 hatch 15 gas 14 ol 14 queen. This should solve a lot of your problems.
Second, as said earlier, there are different ways of knowing about your opponent's gas timing, from his hatch timing to an overlord scout in his main in case he did go hatch first.
Finally, if you have to go bane before speed, yes you lose the possibility to speedling scout in the early game. No way around that. It's either that or take an earlier gas timing yourself, have earlier speedling bane and fight the ling bane war. As for scouting, your first overlord is not the only one that can see the lings coming is it? Let's say you have two default banelings made after your baneling nest finish. And that's it. 20+ lings are rushing through the map, your first overlord was killed. Your second overlord should see them, being at the xel naga tower in daybreak or cloudkingdom or ohana for instance.
How to defend? You have a spine, 2 queens, 2 banes. If it's pure lings without banes, it's easy. The lings cant come all at the same time or they'd die to banelings right? so have your queens close enough to the ramp that they can wall it if need be. Your opponent lings cant come one by one either, coz spine+ queen would kill them before they have your bane. They cant run up into your main either. All they can do is attack some drones, force them to stack on a mineral patch closer to your queens and spines and those lings have to run as you banelings come. All that little dancing gives you time to make a handfull of slowling to protect your drones. You'll need to micro your queens, banes, drones, lings all together.
Now if he's making banelings as well? Guess what, it leaves you time to make lings and morph them to bane yourself. You make lings as he's running across the map and your banes should be ready.
On January 14 2013 23:59 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 09:45 syriuszonito wrote:On January 14 2013 09:13 Henk wrote:
I still have a bit of a hard time holding mass ling all ins in ZvZ. I dislike ling-bling wars and would like to get to the midgame ASAP. Preferably roach-inf, sometimes 8 muta into roach-inf. I thought about doing 15P 16H 18G every game, to be safe from annoying 10 pools and stuff. Thing is; even with the 2 queens on the ramp + a spine I still sometimes lose to mass speedlings. It's kinda hard to scout, because my speed is only just done when their attack hits and queens chase away my scouting overlord. Therefore I figured I'd go baneling nest first from now on. But this really hurts my scouting because I have a later lingspeed. What should I be doing to be safe from this annoying early aggression? Just go with nest first? (I know I asked a similar question some pages ago, but I am still confused.) Unless you really face a ton of those early ling all ins dont open bling nest first, ling speed is more important most of the time. The best way to deal with it would be to make 2 lings and scout his base, its very easy to recognize this all in by very early speed in production and drones pulled of gas. Another sign is his natural hatchery timing. Since he is taking his gas early his natural will be a bit later than yours so always check it. Third hint is the queen you mentioned, shooting at your overlord to deny visions, very rarely you will see ppl do it without following it with an all in. As for defense, put your spine close to hatchery and bling nest so it cant be sourrounded, make a pair of lings around 5:20 and have them on your ramp behind your queens so they are ready to morph into banes, once you block the ramp with queens leave few drones in front of them and hold position, this way he will have to manually target them which should buy you enough time to morhp banes. I'm pretty sure henk is talking about a mass ling allin off a hatch first and not off a gas/pool or pool/gas opener. It works because it looks pretty normal to the scouting lings but they cut drones at around 20 and try to run in with a ton of Speedlings right as metabolic boost finishes. If you cut corners on defense you will get wrecked. For 15p 16h you should have enough time to go speed then baneling nest and have the baneling nest finish in time. Though you will probably need to block the ramp with queens for the banelings to morph. On some maps you can place your overlords behind the natural minerals and you can scout them not adding drones. I've also seen IdrA send a second set of zerglings to scout on his stream. That is pretty good at catching them building up zerglings, although that is probably a bit overly defensive and it doesn't change the fact that you need a baneling nest.
Unfortunately if you go 15p16h into gas against hatch gas pool, you need to go baneling nest before speed.
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Thank you alot, this clears up a lot of things. If my opponent went hatch first or pool into hatch, is it safe to send in my first overlord to check his pool/gas timings, or will it be killed by the queen? Can I only do this for a hatch first opening?
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Hey guys, TL.net is such an amazing site and has helped me tons of getting started with SC2. I have just started playing 2 days ago and got put in the bronze league, I have a few questions as this game has such a high skill ceiling and I honestly have no idea where to start.
I have read some guides here and there but I don't know if they are outdated or not and It is just to much information for me to handle. I would like to learn the zerg.
Anyways I have read that the best way to learn the game is to learn one build order/strategy effectively and perfect it. I know it all depends on what the opponent is doing but I am in the bronze league so I should probably start with 1 strategy first right? So my question is what is currently the best build order/strategy against zerg, terran, and protoss? I would like to perfect the strategy against each race until I start learning counters and such. I have a few more questions but this seems to be the most important. If you guys could link me to a general Zerg guide that will be great, as I can't find any on TL
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On January 15 2013 11:08 kuruptt wrote:
Hey guys, TL.net is such an amazing site and has helped me tons of getting started with SC2. I have just started playing 2 days ago and got put in the bronze league, I have a few questions as this game has such a high skill ceiling and I honestly have no idea where to start.
I have read some guides here and there but I don't know if they are outdated or not and It is just to much information for me to handle. I would like to learn the zerg.
Anyways I have read that the best way to learn the game is to learn one build order/strategy effectively and perfect it. I know it all depends on what the opponent is doing but I am in the bronze league so I should probably start with 1 strategy first right? So my question is what is currently the best build order/strategy against zerg, terran, and protoss? I would like to perfect the strategy against each race until I start learning counters and such. I have a few more questions but this seems to be the most important. If you guys could link me to a general Zerg guide that will be great, as I can't find any on TL
Welcome! 
In the OP (which you have to read), this is linked: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391077
It's basic guides in all 3 matchups, tailored a little towards mid-level players. Getting into starcraft is a topic that's been beaten to death, so I have no doubt you'll be able to find a LOT of information on how to improve. Check out Day[9]'s "Newbie Tuesday" zerg dailies, very helpful for newer players.
http://day9.tv/archives/?q="newbie tuesday" zerg
glhf, feel free to ask any questions!
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On January 15 2013 12:40 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 11:08 kuruptt wrote:
Hey guys, TL.net is such an amazing site and has helped me tons of getting started with SC2. I have just started playing 2 days ago and got put in the bronze league, I have a few questions as this game has such a high skill ceiling and I honestly have no idea where to start.
I have read some guides here and there but I don't know if they are outdated or not and It is just to much information for me to handle. I would like to learn the zerg.
Anyways I have read that the best way to learn the game is to learn one build order/strategy effectively and perfect it. I know it all depends on what the opponent is doing but I am in the bronze league so I should probably start with 1 strategy first right? So my question is what is currently the best build order/strategy against zerg, terran, and protoss? I would like to perfect the strategy against each race until I start learning counters and such. I have a few more questions but this seems to be the most important. If you guys could link me to a general Zerg guide that will be great, as I can't find any on TL Welcome! In the OP (which you have to read), this is linked: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391077 It's basic guides in all 3 matchups, tailored a little towards mid-level players. Getting into starcraft is a topic that's been beaten to death, so I have no doubt you'll be able to find a LOT of information on how to improve. Check out Day[9]'s "Newbie Tuesday" zerg dailies, very helpful for newer players. http://day9.tv/archives/?q="newbie tuesday" zergglhf, feel free to ask any questions!
Wow, thanks for that Glon's Zerg Guide. I did not see that anywhere on TL! I will check all this out before asking more questions, thanks a lot!
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Is there a beginner's guide to spreading creep anywhere? I want to know how to do it well.
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Another question guys, I have played some matches and I am on a winning streak, wee!
I found a lot of info on build openings and such, but I don't find much info on mid game and such. My question is what are the general counter "units" that I should be aiming for against terran, protoss, and other zerg players? Or in general what units should I be aiming for? I know banelings are extremely good for terran, but what about the rest? And what late game unit should be the focus of my army? Thanks!
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On January 15 2013 12:48 Brindled wrote:
Is there a beginner's guide to spreading creep anywhere? I want to know how to do it well.
There are numerous ways to do it, usually against terrans i'll do a 4 queen opening so i can hold of early hellion/banshee pressure and with the 2 spare queens i use them for creep tumors. you can hotkey them to something like 9 or 0 if you want to. but if oyu need a method to constantly remember to plop tumors just sync your creep tumor placement with larva injects, so inject lrva and then get your creep queens to place tumors, because it takes a little over 1 larvae inject to get 25 energy. and also use the placed tumors to spread more - the more tumors the better.
There's a video here http://www.starcraft2guidance.com/zerg-strategies/zerg-creep-spread-guide/
and also if you want to you can look up on YouTube "EGidra talks creep spread" and it will be in a video series by TeamEG. He shows how he does his creep spread.
There are also quicker methods of making creep highways to yours and your oponent's base, 1 is to have lair and get the overlord to spew creep, this is risky because you may lose the overlord at some point and it can be devasting (it's actually cost me a game or 2 being supply blocked from it). So what you should do is get overlord speed upgrade and/or the transport one and spew creep on the ground then place a creep tumor then get the overlord away. There you have it, a nice creep highway. I prefer spamming creep tumors because it's a feeling of satisfaction when you see you have conquered the map with your creep spread. No where for the terrans to land except his 2 mined out bases...ahh it's amazing.
A more expensive way to do it is nydus worms...this is more expensive but if oyu have the money it's pretty good because you can transport units directly outside the guys base. Either it's pretty bad to do.
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On January 15 2013 16:18 kuruptt wrote:
Another question guys, I have played some matches and I am on a winning streak, wee!
I found a lot of info on build openings and such, but I don't find much info on mid game and such. My question is what are the general counter "units" that I should be aiming for against terran, protoss, and other zerg players? Or in general what units should I be aiming for? I know banelings are extremely good for terran, but what about the rest? And what late game unit should be the focus of my army? Thanks!
Well the general unit compositions for ZvP would be ling roach hydra (based on the current metagame most protoss do an immortal sentry all in, which this is good against).
In ZvZ you pretty much wanna be going for Roach infestor with maybe some hydra support.
ZvT depends on what they go (bio or mech) and it can vary from ling/bling muta to roach infestor ling.
Also if you want to know what units counter what there is a chart here...
This one shows which zerg units counter the other race units.
and this one shows which zerg units get countered by other race's units.
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Thanks for the graph, it is exactly what I was looking for.
I kind of want to try a all in rush strategy. Which one is the best guys? =p I am getting bored of these 30 minute games!
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On January 15 2013 16:18 kuruptt wrote:
Another question guys, I have played some matches and I am on a winning streak, wee!
I found a lot of info on build openings and such, but I don't find much info on mid game and such. My question is what are the general counter "units" that I should be aiming for against terran, protoss, and other zerg players? Or in general what units should I be aiming for? I know banelings are extremely good for terran, but what about the rest? And what late game unit should be the focus of my army? Thanks!
Have you checked out the set of zerg guides that I wrote? They're linked in the OP (Bolded + Underlined <.< ) - I go over most mid-late game compositions.
If you have any questions on those, feel free to post them in that thread OR in here. I look at both
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2 questions,
1) How do I be aggressive against a terran early on? I can never do any damage because they get bunkers and then later siege tanks, the thing is they do an early expansion or even an early third and they know that I can't do crap about it so it just drags the match on to the macro game which is annoying because I dont want terrans getting a critical number of marines and tanks or worst of all, thors. So what good builds can nearly certainly end the ZvT before 15 mins? (I'm in gold league so anything is possible). I'd prefer something that's not all in-ish but if you need to, then say an all in. In my league the ZvTs just drag on to actionless macro games where i have to send wave after wave of units into his marine tanks line til i wittle him down. So i'd prefer to end it quickly rather than play a 30 min game of me siting on 7 bases with 20 hatches while he sits on 3 bases. then when he realises he can't win he just floats his buildings all over the map and goes AFK...believe it or not this is SO ridiculously common for me.
2) in ZvZ how do i know when I should A) expand and B) drone up/army up - I watch alot of GM zerg replay packs by MasSaN and when they do ZvZs they have atleast 3 bases by 9 mins, would that sort of behavior be safe in my leagues? should i really risk doing that sort of play in this match up? One of the reasons i lose most my ZvZs are because I do an attack which costs both of us our armies then i decide to drone up while he armies ups so he just has more crap than me. What hints that I should build an army or drones in ZvZ? Again it's in gold league so anything can happen.
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EPT
