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Tal0n
United States175 Posts
i have huge trouble holding a push around 16 minutes with 4 colossus and double warpprism harass leading up to it. is it too risky to rush broodlords? should i rely on infestors? (my style tends to steer away from mass infestor/spine) also i generally try to go muta with quick melee upgrades, which is why i dont just mass roach to try to overwhelm with reinforcements. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On January 13 2013 11:58 Tal0n wrote: vs protoss, how do i best react to an immediate colossus transition? i'm speaking of the scenario in which protoss opened forge expand like they should, and i see a robo bay with my overlord scout at 7 minutes. i have huge trouble holding a push around 16 minutes with 4 colossus and double warpprism harass leading up to it. is it too risky to rush broodlords? should i rely on infestors? (my style tends to steer away from mass infestor/spine) also i generally try to go muta with quick melee upgrades, which is why i dont just mass roach to try to overwhelm with reinforcements. If you see a robo bay that early, just go kill him. He won't have any ground army due to his investment in tech. For the 16 minute push, be sure to have enough static defense at your bases and be sure to have corruptors. This push is aimed at killing you before getting broodlords. Make sure you have a nice large spine wall, corruptors and a lot of infestors. (10+) This should push him back. However, as I said, without static defense at your bases you'll still die because BL infestor is so very immobile. | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On January 13 2013 11:58 Tal0n wrote: vs protoss, how do i best react to an immediate colossus transition? i'm speaking of the scenario in which protoss opened forge expand like they should, and i see a robo bay with my overlord scout at 7 minutes. i have huge trouble holding a push around 16 minutes with 4 colossus and double warpprism harass leading up to it. is it too risky to rush broodlords? should i rely on infestors? (my style tends to steer away from mass infestor/spine) also i generally try to go muta with quick melee upgrades, which is why i dont just mass roach to try to overwhelm with reinforcements. Does the protoss push out of 2 base or 3? If he want to take a third you have a shot at denying it on some maps (like daybreak) with double front roach agresssion. If he take 3 bases mutalisk will do well against him as well. If he stays on 2 base, mutalisk would do ok-ish. dive into his mineral line the second he leaves his base and go trade-base style. Do not engage head-on if you can avoid it. Otherwise you can take a 4rth, just take gas on it, make a spine wall protecting your third and natural and max on infestor/corruptors roach. If you can have broodlords in time, make them, unlike what was commented above. Since all you need to do is hold a 2 base all-in, sitting with broods infestors on top of spines means gg. The immobility of broodlords doesnt matter vs 2 base all-in. He cant outrun your army because you can sacrifice your 4rth (you're still one base ahead so it's fine). And then your broodlords should be able to cover your 3rd and nat no problem | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On January 13 2013 22:09 Henk wrote: Honestly you can't get broodlords in time for a 2 base all in, unless the protoss has no idea what he's doing. His post was not very clear but we has speaking of a 16 minute push. You can have broodlords at that time. And some protoss all-in out of 2 base can hit around that time (yes, very late) with 3 attack 2 armor, 3-4 colossus and 160 food (rest is stalkers). They kill with one near unkillable army. Those builds felt out of fashion when zergs learned to spine/infestor/corru | ||
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bkKiller
France2 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On January 14 2013 02:25 bkKiller wrote: Hi guys, I'm top master player and at the moment I have lot of problems in zvz versus zerg who don't take gas before 5:00 or more and they defend with queen. I make a standart build with roach +1 and infestor into b3 but I loose all time against 40 roach timming attack. I dont know what I have to do and I dont want play like them. I'm lost ... I don't know if i have to be agressive or passive ... Thanks for your help. I have trouble with gasless openers too. I think the best reaction is to stop mining gas, feign pressure with speedlings while taking either a third or 2 base lair...basically skip baneling nest and spine, drone harder. I've faced a 44 drone roach/queen creep highway bust, my GOD it's strong. Hits right before mutas get out, and has enough roach/queen and transfuses that it's nearly unkillable. I think the best way to stop these gasless openers into 2 base roach bust is probably a 2 base lair (probably muta) with 5+ spine crawlers at the front...but that loses to macro builds. I don't know, hopefully someone more knowledgeable can provide some insight. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On January 14 2013 02:31 Mavvie wrote: I have trouble with gasless openers too. I think the best reaction is to stop mining gas, feign pressure with speedlings while taking either a third or 2 base lair...basically skip baneling nest and spine, drone harder. I've faced a 44 drone roach/queen creep highway bust, my GOD it's strong. Hits right before mutas get out, and has enough roach/queen and transfuses that it's nearly unkillable. I think the best way to stop these gasless openers into 2 base roach bust is probably a 2 base lair (probably muta) with 5+ spine crawlers at the front...but that loses to macro builds. I don't know, hopefully someone more knowledgeable can provide some insight. Gasless opener cant deny you from getting a fast third. I tried it, but it seems than when the opponent does the all in mass roach, you cant hold it, even with a Speedling into fast third... :/ | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On January 14 2013 03:06 Insoleet wrote: Gasless opener cant deny you from getting a fast third. I tried it, but it seems than when the opponent does the all in mass roach, you cant hold it, even with a Speedling into fast third... :/ Exactly. I always go fast third as soon as I realize it's gasless, but it doesn't matter. I suppose I'll try to blind counter my opponents and assume they're gonna do a 2 base roach all in so I'll get lots of spines and do a 2 base lair build with ups....I don't know. It's a hard style to play against, I've only won against them with speedling all ins (lol) | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On January 14 2013 02:25 bkKiller wrote: Hi guys, I'm top master player and at the moment I have lot of problems in zvz versus zerg who don't take gas before 5:00 or more and they defend with queen. I make a standart build with roach +1 and infestor into b3 but I loose all time against 40 roach timming attack. I dont know what I have to do and I dont want play like them. I'm lost ... I don't know if i have to be agressive or passive ... Thanks for your help. I could see three ways to counter this (on paper, though, because I didnt face many gasless Z) 1) Have an early gas and do a masssssive lingspeed all in (no baneling, just 100 gas and not many drones). Those roaches are not ready in time for such a timing as far as I know. And they skip banelings so it should work no matter what. 2) Early third into roaches. Skip lingspeed, spines and baneling nest at first. You have defender advantage you should hold with a few more drones. 3) super greedy muta build like skipping baneling nest, spine and early speed. Go lair before speed, then research speed, then 4 gas then mass spines. The earlier lair, imo, is possible if you skip banelings entirely (baneling nest + 2 banelings = 250 minerals 100 gas) All those options requires to scout the build early and entirely, which is not always possible i guess. Would like to hear what you guys think of my answer (I never actually tested this). Imo the strength of this build is clearly to skip baneling nest+lingpseed (total of 350 minerals 200 gas). Then in the mid game they hit imba timings because they cut so many corners early game. | ||
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bkKiller
France2 Posts
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On January 14 2013 04:42 Natalya wrote: I could see three ways to counter this (on paper, though, because I didnt face many gasless Z) 1) Have an early gas and do a masssssive lingspeed all in (no baneling, just 100 gas and not many drones). Those roaches are not ready in time for such a timing as far as I know. And they skip banelings so it should work no matter what. 2) Early third into roaches. Skip lingspeed, spines and baneling nest at first. You have defender advantage you should hold with a few more drones. 3) super greedy muta build like skipping baneling nest, spine and early speed. Go lair before speed, then research speed, then 4 gas then mass spines. The earlier lair, imo, is possible if you skip banelings entirely (baneling nest + 2 banelings = 250 minerals 100 gas) All those options requires to scout the build early and entirely, which is not always possible i guess. Would like to hear what you guys think of my answer (I never actually tested this). Imo the strength of this build is clearly to skip baneling nest+lingpseed (total of 350 minerals 200 gas). Then in the mid game they hit imba timings because they cut so many corners early game. 1st option is a bad choice because a wall at natural absolutely counters it. 3rd yes you could do that but it is a bit risky. If he reads your play and just go for ling infestor you will end up with a low economy and useless mutas I think the 2nd option is the best choice but I would still get that ling speed to have the map control and prevent a situation where he takes early third as well. This way maybe he is going to have a slighty better economy but your third base will be ready before his even started. Be active with few lings to scout when does he start roach production and you should be able to defend any pressure | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On January 14 2013 06:36 syriuszonito wrote: 1st option is a bad choice because a wall at natural absolutely counters it. 3rd yes you could do that but it is a bit risky. If he reads your play and just go for ling infestor you will end up with a low economy and useless mutas I think the 2nd option is the best choice but I would still get that ling speed to have the map control and prevent a situation where he takes early third as well. This way maybe he is going to have a slighty better economy but your third base will be ready before his even started. Be active with few lings to scout when does he start roach production and you should be able to defend any pressure 1) I never saw an evo chamber wall to counter mass ling in pro level. A wall at the natural is usually used to defend against banelings, not zerglings. Is he going to shoot at you with 2 queens only? You should still get through I think. 2) If you research ling speed, are you really going to make a lot of speedlings against roaches, likely with upgrades? + if you go for lingspeed+early third you're more likely to die to his roach timing I think. The thing is, making lingspeed then making less than 10 lings is a waste imo, making more I cant say it's usefull against roaches. It's true you should deny the third. But are you going to hold his roach timing with investment in lingspeed, ling and a third when he didnt invest all that? not sure. 3) You could say that of any muta build. ling infestor dies to a fast 3rd base into roach spamm with rally point at his base. There's a reason it's not used anymore. + how does he transition from roaches to ling festor since he will scout your spire way after he started roach production (if you let slowling scout your lair tech you messed up)? He would have to wait for lingspeed and infestor to pop before doing anything? It's not likely. Transitioning to ling reactively cant work in zvz imo, it has to be a choice you make from begining. Still if he transitionned, you could still take a third and he could not, which is freewin. | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On January 14 2013 07:27 Natalya wrote: 1) I never saw an evo chamber wall to counter mass ling in pro level. A wall at the natural is usually used to defend against banelings, not zerglings. Is he going to shoot at you with 2 queens only? You should still get through I think. 2) If you research ling speed, are you really going to make a lot of speedlings against roaches, likely with upgrades? + if you go for lingspeed+early third you're more likely to die to his roach timing I think. The thing is, making lingspeed then making less than 10 lings is a waste imo, making more I cant say it's usefull against roaches. It's true you should deny the third. But are you going to hold his roach timing with investment in lingspeed, ling and a third when he didnt invest all that? not sure. 3) You could say that of any muta build. ling infestor dies to a fast 3rd base into roach spamm with rally point at his base. There's a reason it's not used anymore. + how does he transition from roaches to ling festor since he will scout your spire way after he started roach production (if you let slowling scout your lair tech you messed up)? He would have to wait for lingspeed and infestor to pop before doing anything? It's not likely. Transitioning to ling reactively cant work in zvz imo, it has to be a choice you make from begining. Still if he transitionned, you could still take a third and he could not, which is freewin. 1) How does it make any difference to you if its mass ling or ling bane? You should get the wall anyway to be safe. No idea if they do it at a pro lvl (actually I almost never see any pro lvl zerg open gaseless, that could be the reason) I am just saying that a wall with either 3 queens or 2 queens spine is something you will not be able to break. 2) The point is most of the time you will scout the gasless opening when you already have the gas taken or even later (if you scout with 2 lings) so I dont think it will be much of an econ dmg to get that ling speed, especially that you will skip the spine and delay baneling nest to make it up for it. Keep in mind that gaseless opening is not always followed by a mass roach all in, it can be ling bane pressure as well. 3) Yeah but if you really wanna rush to mutas then just by seeing early gases in your natural taken you are giving your opponent a good hint whats coming. Ok, maybe you will be able to stop him from taking 3rd base for a while before he switches to infestors but he will easily deny yours as well (either with roaches or lings). You still end up behind on economy and a lot of rescources invested in muta. I cant see this build working but will gladly see a high lvl replay of it working if it exists. | ||
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NemesisTrestkon
Philippines17 Posts
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On January 14 2013 09:13 Henk wrote: What should I be doing to be safe from this annoying early aggression? Just go with nest first? Basically, yes. That's the best and safest option imho. Why do you need speedlings for early scouting? Have overlords to spot if he leaves his base and check his gasses/drone count. An alternative on some maps is to make a complete wall with roach warren and evo chamber(s) and a spine behind it. But that's a bit expensive, shows all your tech and lets him eco safely. | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On January 14 2013 09:06 NemesisTrestkon wrote: My focus on my tactics involves getting as much bases as possible. Thinking of getting 4 bases before getting any gas, but what's the best way to go around it on all 3 matchups? Vs terran Its very doable to delay gas for a long time as long as you have queens and good spread, If you sac an ol @5:00 and spot a 3rd CC macro build you could take a 4th. But you need to catch up in tech quickly, and I would suggest getting a few roaches as a transition unit while you wait for speed. Vs protoss you'll die to any 2 base all-in if you have no gas units. But it's possible to take your 4th macro hatch as a base at around 7-8 minutes (if you confirm 4 gas). You won't have time to saturate it though. Vs zerg just no... You'll die hard to banelings and there is no way to reliable scout for a baneling nest, plus there is no way to hold 4 bases with slowlings vs speedlings. | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On January 14 2013 09:13 Henk wrote: I still have a bit of a hard time holding mass ling all ins in ZvZ. I dislike ling-bling wars and would like to get to the midgame ASAP. Preferably roach-inf, sometimes 8 muta into roach-inf. I thought about doing 15P 16H 18G every game, to be safe from annoying 10 pools and stuff. Thing is; even with the 2 queens on the ramp + a spine I still sometimes lose to mass speedlings. It's kinda hard to scout, because my speed is only just done when their attack hits and queens chase away my scouting overlord. Therefore I figured I'd go baneling nest first from now on. But this really hurts my scouting because I have a later lingspeed. What should I be doing to be safe from this annoying early aggression? Just go with nest first? (I know I asked a similar question some pages ago, but I am still confused.) Unless you really face a ton of those early ling all ins dont open bling nest first, ling speed is more important most of the time. The best way to deal with it would be to make 2 lings and scout his base, its very easy to recognize this all in by very early speed in production and drones pulled of gas. Another sign is his natural hatchery timing. Since he is taking his gas early his natural will be a bit later than yours so always check it. Third hint is the queen you mentioned, shooting at your overlord to deny visions, very rarely you will see ppl do it without following it with an all in. As for defense, put your spine close to hatchery and bling nest so it cant be sourrounded, make a pair of lings around 5:20 and have them on your ramp behind your queens so they are ready to morph into banes, once you block the ramp with queens leave few drones in front of them and hold position, this way he will have to manually target them which should buy you enough time to morhp banes. | ||
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b0ub0u
Canada445 Posts
On January 13 2013 05:26 FrogOfWar wrote: Thanks everyone for the replies. I thought maybe some other folks experienced the same problem, apparently not. Don't know what this is, I'm gonna have to do some more testing, although I tested everything I could think of. The game behaves as if I had only pressed the infested terran key once and wasn't holding it down. It throws one i.t. and the next left clicks do nothing until I press it again. Hey FrogOfWar, I have the EXACT same issue as you. It does it to me each time. If I just click on T and click everywhere I want IT then it just spam a few and then stop and I have to press again T because for some reason it changed the selection. Maybe because we click on a enemy unit or something? | ||
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