EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 460
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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JackRipper
79 Posts
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Reki
Philippines89 Posts
I have to admit I rarely watch ZvZ reps and I have never won or lost against people who went broodlords or ultras. I got my ass to diamond with just pure roaches and infestors and spending my extra gas on drops. Ultras get owned by terrain + spine walls while the godlike broodlord army can't protect shit and you will lose structures to a hundred plus roaches doing runbys. Do I really have to invest that 850/700 just to 3/3 my roaches? | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On January 11 2013 18:13 JackRipper wrote: What are some ways to remember when to inject? I'm okay with injects at the early stages of the game, but once they start harassing/attacking me, my inject timings become worse. Right now I'm trying to have each hatchery on a hotkey and tap one of them to know when they finish but I stop doing this mid-late game. 1. Spam your inject methord often so you get a habbit of doing it 2. When you are under pressure most of the time you want to build units. Instead of tapping a single hatch you can observe your larva count, when all of a sudden you got a lot of larva you know its time to inject Dont be too harsh on yourself, spot on injecting when fighting on multiple fronts is quite hard and even top players struggle with it. @Reki I guess you meant hive, I'd say its more of a luxury. Latetly you can see more and more pros getting to hive tech in zvzs but on ladder lvl still like 99% of games ends before that stage. Unless your opponent is playing extremely camp spine/infestor style you can always find a way to outplay him with roach/infestor before it gets to hive tech. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 11 2013 20:16 Reki wrote: In ZvZ, is getting lair necessity or luxury? I have to admit I rarely watch ZvZ reps and I have never won or lost against people who went broodlords or ultras. I got my ass to diamond with just pure roaches and infestors and spending my extra gas on drops. Ultras get owned by terrain + spine walls while the godlike broodlord army can't protect shit and you will lose structures to a hundred plus roaches doing runbys. Do I really have to invest that 850/700 just to 3/3 my roaches? You mean hive I am assuming? Eventually it is a necessity. If the game is in a stalemate situation you will want to get hive and get 3/3 + tech to broodlords. Of course I personally try to avoid that as much as possible and will go hive to get 3/3 and try to attack before my opponent can get broods ;P | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
14 pool 15 hatch What is the best reaction to have against 10 pool which focus on canceling your hatch ? Defend with drones and lings ? Or cancel it ? | ||
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Flummie
Netherlands417 Posts
On January 11 2013 18:13 JackRipper wrote: What are some ways to remember when to inject? I'm okay with injects at the early stages of the game, but once they start harassing/attacking me, my inject timings become worse. Right now I'm trying to have each hatchery on a hotkey and tap one of them to know when they finish but I stop doing this mid-late game. I did the switch-hatch-hotkey-swap (Backspace to spacebar) and if you do one you do them all within just a matter of seconds. Also it helps to get used to injecting a lot so it becomes a habit like the other guy told. | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On January 11 2013 13:13 Discarder wrote: The only reason you're getting 15H is because you want to be more heavier on larvae. With stephano's opening, he's not looking to build many lings. He just wants to get defensive banelings, lair and roaches. 15H allows a player to build more lings for map control. In an equally efficient ling/baneling clash, 15h will overwhelm a poolfirst. If you notice, if stephano opens like this, he isn't too aggressive with lings. Because its overall more safer, more roach oriented and looking to take a lair first before 3rd base. Source for this? According to me, the 15 pool 16 hatch builds generates more larvae but will mine a little less mineral in the early game (because you have idle larvae from time to time because of a lack of ressources). The hatch first build should have faster speed, especially if you go hatch gas pool (less the case if you go hatch pool gas). So hatch first allows to be agressive a little earlier. Sometimes you can overrun with speedlings if your opponent messed up. On January 11 2013 18:13 JackRipper wrote: What are some ways to remember when to inject? I'm okay with injects at the early stages of the game, but once they start harassing/attacking me, my inject timings become worse. Right now I'm trying to have each hatchery on a hotkey and tap one of them to know when they finish but I stop doing this mid-late game. If you spend your larvae correctly, a sudden surge of new larva also means that you need to inject. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On January 11 2013 13:13 Discarder wrote: The only reason you're getting 15H is because you want to be more heavier on larvae. With stephano's opening, he's not looking to build many lings. He just wants to get defensive banelings, lair and roaches. 15H allows a player to build more lings for map control. In an equally efficient ling/baneling clash, 15h will overwhelm a poolfirst. If you notice, if stephano opens like this, he isn't too aggressive with lings. Because its overall more safer, more roach oriented and looking to take a lair first before 3rd base. So should I take my baneling nest before speed then? Because I don't like ling bling wars, I'd rather get to the midgame quickly. | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On January 12 2013 02:00 Henk wrote: So should I take my baneling nest before speed then? Because I don't like ling bling wars, I'd rather get to the midgame quickly. No, the only good reason to get baneling nest before speed is when you are certain that very early ling or ling/bling pressure is coming (good example of this is scouting a 15p/15g/15h opening - it almost always ends up with a mass speedling all in). | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On January 12 2013 02:00 Henk wrote: So should I take my baneling nest before speed then? Because I don't like ling bling wars, I'd rather get to the midgame quickly. If you want to be absolutely safe and do not plan to be agressive anyway, here's is a simple rule: If you open 15 pool 16 hatch then gas, get baneling nest before speed against hatch first, and again some gas pool hatchery builds (you can recognize those builds will because they will have a hatch very late). If someone takes a hatchery at the same time as you do, it means he didnt take gas before you did, so if this happens you're safe going speed then banelings nest. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On January 12 2013 03:26 Natalya wrote: If you want to be absolutely safe and do not plan to be agressive anyway, here's is a simple rule: If you open 15 pool 16 hatch then gas, get baneling nest before speed against hatch first, and again some gas pool hatchery builds (you can recognize those builds will because they will have a hatch very late). If someone takes a hatchery at the same time as you do, it means he didnt take gas before you did, so if this happens you're safe going speed then banelings nest. So basically I will always go baneling nest before speed unless someone is doing the same build (15P 16H 18G) as I am doing? Wouldn't it be safer to just.. Always go baneling nest first? I died alot to huge ling attacks before my nest is finished, say on cloud kingdom after they chased away my overlord on the cliff. Scouting howmany drones they have can be so tough. Even a spine and 2 queens on the ramp just die to it before banelings are done- and my own spawning lings spawn too late to deal with it, I feel. | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On January 12 2013 06:23 Henk wrote: So basically I will always go baneling nest before speed unless someone is doing the same build (15P 16H 18G) as I am doing? Wouldn't it be safer to just.. Always go baneling nest first? I died alot to huge ling attacks before my nest is finished, say on cloud kingdom after they chased away my overlord on the cliff. Scouting howmany drones they have can be so tough. Even a spine and 2 queens on the ramp just die to it before banelings are done- and my own spawning lings spawn too late to deal with it, I feel. Reading this I think there's a little problem with your baneling control. The thing is : there is (only) one situation in which you do no want to find yourself in early zvz : you dont want to not have banelings when he has lingspeed. To say it the other way around, you need your baneling nest done when he has lingspeed. You can always tell how fast is his ling speed by the timing of his hatchery alone, as explained (you do not need to be able to scout his drone count, just have your baneling nest done in time and you're fine whatever happens). So yes, it is safer to always get baneling nest first, as a no brainer. You lose the possibility to be agressive, but if you dont plan to do so, you dont lose anything going baneling nest first. If you ever find urself using queens vs speedlings, you can use your drones and hold position in front of your queens, making a wall. The AI will prioritize the queens over the drones, but since ling cant get to the queens, the lings will just run around attacking nothing, letting your queens slowly killing the lings. It still possible to counter this, though, by holding position with the attacking ling themselves. | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
Does anyone have a replay / build order / VOD of this? | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On January 12 2013 07:35 Natalya wrote: Reading this I think there's a little problem with your baneling control. The thing is : there is (only) one situation in which you do no want to find yourself in early zvz : you dont want to not have banelings when he has lingspeed. To say it the other way around, you need your baneling nest done when he has lingspeed. You can always tell how fast is his ling speed by the timing of his hatchery alone, as explained (you do not need to be able to scout his drone count, just have your baneling nest done in time and you're fine whatever happens). So yes, it is safer to always get baneling nest first, as a no brainer. You lose the possibility to be agressive, but if you dont plan to do so, you dont lose anything going baneling nest first. If you ever find urself using queens vs speedlings, you can use your drones and hold position in front of your queens, making a wall. The AI will prioritize the queens over the drones, but since ling cant get to the queens, the lings will just run around attacking nothing, letting your queens slowly killing the lings. It still possible to counter this, though, by holding position with the attacking ling themselves. Well I always used to go 15H and then lingspeed first, then spine+baneling nest. But then I drone because I always want to macro, and when I have 30 drones they have 15 and then attack with 40 lings. Perhaps I should scout better with my eary 4 lings.. But if bane nest first fixes all this I'll just do that. Any attack like this would just do no damage and cause me to have a 15 drone lead? Since I am never aggressive at first (perhaps I should be.. But yeah) this could work very well. Thanks! | ||
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obis
Canada98 Posts
This is how my build works, I am still working on perfecting it but now that I am in gold i feel as it will be less effective, since i am playing against people that use proper timings and builds you could say, anyway I drone my main and natural to 32 drones and than i immediately saturate my 2 geysers in my main with the larva that pops and make a roach warren, after that i saturate my geysers in my natural and from there i get lair first and make nothing but roaches with the speed upgrade and +1+1. By the time i reach 32 drones, the terran already had hellions on the map and i am just starting to saturate my extractors. so i don't really have much to defend it with unless i should get speedling, but i don't know the right opener for the ZvT mach up. I open with 15 pool, 15 hatch, If anyone could point me in the right direction for ZvT I would be thankful. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 12 2013 09:01 obis wrote: Hey, I just recently got promoted to gold, by sticking with a two base roach style of play with upgrades and whenever i play ZvT, I get challenged with early hellions. The thing is that with my roach style play, i usually get my roaches out later than when the terran gets out his first hellions and i'm just having a hard time defending against this tech push, since by that time I have nothing but drones, queens and a set of lings for scouting. This is how my build works, I am still working on perfecting it but now that I am in gold i feel as it will be less effective, since i am playing against people that use proper timings and builds you could say, anyway I drone my main and natural to 32 drones and than i immediately saturate my 2 geysers in my main with the larva that pops and make a roach warren, after that i saturate my geysers in my natural and from there i get lair first and make nothing but roaches with the speed upgrade and +1+1. By the time i reach 32 drones, the terran already had hellions on the map and i am just starting to saturate my extractors. so i don't really have much to defend it with unless i should get speedling, but i don't know the right opener for the ZvT mach up. I open with 15 pool, 15 hatch, If anyone could point me in the right direction for ZvT I would be thankful. Well if I were you I would do 15 hatch, 16 pool as the only build you would have to worry about is proxy 2 rax which isn't very common (and you should scout for proxies anyway). Make 4 queens (you will have 4 queens by the time his hellions get to your base). Make a small wall off with 2 evo chamber placements and then you can add a roach warren later. This is better then 15 pool 15 hatch, that build you shouldn't do zvt as there is really no reason to unless you somehow knew 100% that your opponent was going proxy 2 rax. | ||
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obis
Canada98 Posts
On January 12 2013 09:26 blade55555 wrote: Well if I were you I would do 15 hatch, 16 pool as the only build you would have to worry about is proxy 2 rax which isn't very common (and you should scout for proxies anyway). Make 4 queens (you will have 4 queens by the time his hellions get to your base). Make a small wall off with 2 evo chamber placements and then you can add a roach warren later. This is better then 15 pool 15 hatch, that build you shouldn't do zvt as there is really no reason to unless you somehow knew 100% that your opponent was going proxy 2 rax. Thanks, I will try that opener and would you agree with trying to counter the hellions with a lot of lings? say like 20 of them or is there a way where you could just wall off and not even have them enter your base or do you always have to defend against the hellions. | ||
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obis
Canada98 Posts
On January 12 2013 09:26 blade55555 wrote: Well if I were you I would do 15 hatch, 16 pool as the only build you would have to worry about is proxy 2 rax which isn't very common (and you should scout for proxies anyway). Make 4 queens (you will have 4 queens by the time his hellions get to your base). Make a small wall off with 2 evo chamber placements and then you can add a roach warren later. This is better then 15 pool 15 hatch, that build you shouldn't do zvt as there is really no reason to unless you somehow knew 100% that your opponent was going proxy 2 rax. Also, I just wanted to ask you "is there any reason why you chose 15 hatch/16 pool over 15 hatch/15pool? does getting your pool at 16 just make your economy that much better? Thank you! | ||
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obis
Canada98 Posts
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FrogOfWar
Germany1406 Posts
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