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On January 08 2013 16:55 HighLach wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 04:01 Glon wrote:On January 08 2013 02:55 HighLach wrote:On January 08 2013 02:08 Najda wrote:
Anyone have a good all-in for ZvP? I hate that matchup so much I just want it to be over as soon as possible. There is Stephano's classic 3 base roach all-in, but Protoss are pretty good at holding that off these days, depending on what rank you are, you can easily beat a lot of Protosses with this just by practicing macro, and micro(splitting is fun); you can also add in burrow and roach burrow movement. There are guides everywhere, and lots of variations. It also has the benefit of looking like standard play. Someone already mentioned Zenio's baneling all-in, it's a good build. If you want to find a bunch of great all-ins, I would consider taking a look at a lot of Leenock's play, he loves all-ins. One of his most notable is his 10 roach all-in. I'm a huge fan of 8 pool against protoss, but it's less of an all-in and more of a way to take an early advantage. Goodluck! I wouldn't suggest trying to all in protoss - there are no all ins that are reliable in ZvP nowadays. Any kind of all in from the zerg rely on protoss making a mistake WAY more than zerg coming out with sick micro/macro, ect. Instead, I would suggest tackling 1 part of ZvP at a time. Early: Are you getting a hatchery up (either at nat or third due to probe) on time? Mid: Have you built 2 gasses at 6:00? Are you getting a lair/ling speed on time? Later Mid: Have you scouted that your opponent has 3 bases? (If not, BUILD UNITS) Late: Is your Broodlord/infestor/roach/corrupter army in a good position? Are you watching for warp prisms? I suggest trying to improve, not practicing some random all in When I ask a person where to buy drugs, they don't want the answer, "Drugs are bad for you!" GIVE THE MAN HIS ALL-INS!
They just don't really exist. You can 6 pool, that's kind of an all-in. As far as I am aware, a sentry/immortal all-in off of a FFE not only is incredibly dangerous to 'standard' 3 hatch before gas openings, but it can also hold any 2 base timings. Zenio's Ling/Bling bust, I feel, is hard countered if toss opens up double sentry after cyber. It doesn't even punish 'greedy' play because Toss wants those sentries out to start building energy.
1 and 2 base all-ins low tech don't work well against FFE due to melee/short range units fighting high hp buildings w/ long range units and force fields. It is also easily scoutable as it is hard/impossible to deny the scouting of the third with only slow lings. Lair tech is not very conducive to all-in's. Hydra's are slow and relatively weak/expensive, infestors are support only (or too gas heavy to afford as a main unit at this point), and muta's are harassing units. What's left are late game units that are best reached through 'standard' play.
Other races tier 2 units are much better suited for all ins. They have range in Siege Tanks and Collosus, mobility and surviveability in blink stalkers/medivac + bio, or just pure damage (stim, siege tanks, immortals, collosus).
Hopefully, HotS gives us some more options with Swarm Host getting us a ranged attaack and muta regen giving our mobile unit more surviveability.
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On January 09 2013 04:54 kiklion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 16:55 HighLach wrote:On January 08 2013 04:01 Glon wrote:On January 08 2013 02:55 HighLach wrote:On January 08 2013 02:08 Najda wrote:
Anyone have a good all-in for ZvP? I hate that matchup so much I just want it to be over as soon as possible. There is Stephano's classic 3 base roach all-in, but Protoss are pretty good at holding that off these days, depending on what rank you are, you can easily beat a lot of Protosses with this just by practicing macro, and micro(splitting is fun); you can also add in burrow and roach burrow movement. There are guides everywhere, and lots of variations. It also has the benefit of looking like standard play. Someone already mentioned Zenio's baneling all-in, it's a good build. If you want to find a bunch of great all-ins, I would consider taking a look at a lot of Leenock's play, he loves all-ins. One of his most notable is his 10 roach all-in. I'm a huge fan of 8 pool against protoss, but it's less of an all-in and more of a way to take an early advantage. Goodluck! I wouldn't suggest trying to all in protoss - there are no all ins that are reliable in ZvP nowadays. Any kind of all in from the zerg rely on protoss making a mistake WAY more than zerg coming out with sick micro/macro, ect. Instead, I would suggest tackling 1 part of ZvP at a time. Early: Are you getting a hatchery up (either at nat or third due to probe) on time? Mid: Have you built 2 gasses at 6:00? Are you getting a lair/ling speed on time? Later Mid: Have you scouted that your opponent has 3 bases? (If not, BUILD UNITS) Late: Is your Broodlord/infestor/roach/corrupter army in a good position? Are you watching for warp prisms? I suggest trying to improve, not practicing some random all in When I ask a person where to buy drugs, they don't want the answer, "Drugs are bad for you!" GIVE THE MAN HIS ALL-INS! They just don't really exist. You can 6 pool, that's kind of an all-in. As far as I am aware, a sentry/immortal all-in off of a FFE not only is incredibly dangerous to 'standard' 3 hatch before gas openings, but it can also hold any 2 base timings. Zenio's Ling/Bling bust, I feel, is hard countered if toss opens up double sentry after cyber. It doesn't even punish 'greedy' play because Toss wants those sentries out to start building energy. 1 and 2 base all-ins low tech don't work well against FFE due to melee/short range units fighting high hp buildings w/ long range units and force fields. It is also easily scoutable as it is hard/impossible to deny the scouting of the third with only slow lings. Lair tech is not very conducive to all-in's. Hydra's are slow and relatively weak/expensive, infestors are support only (or too gas heavy to afford as a main unit at this point), and muta's are harassing units. What's left are late game units that are best reached through 'standard' play. Other races tier 2 units are much better suited for all ins. They have range in Siege Tanks and Collosus, mobility and surviveability in blink stalkers/medivac + bio, or just pure damage (stim, siege tanks, immortals, collosus). Hopefully, HotS gives us some more options with Swarm Host getting us a ranged attaack and muta regen giving our mobile unit more surviveability.
Yes they do exist! Even pro Zergs use them, and you are still missing the point. Regardless of how effective all-ins are, which I am not going to start talking about, our player in need wanted some all-ins. I've seen countless game where Zerg goes all-in. Even I will say that standard play is more effective, but throwing some cheese or all-ins to your play is good.
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When to macro Hatch ? 
Here's the thing : I grew up in yellow / boxer's era and so I often end my games with a lot of micro only and with tons of cash and I don't know how to spend them properly. Sc2's related, I've some kind of OCD syndrome with the queen's injection : I count in my head 30 sec everytime so that I can get perfect injects (except when I'm facing difficults situations ofc).
When you take those 2 things in mind, you have like 2000 minerals but also 24+ larvaes ready with only 3 hatches or so... What would you do ? Obvious solution is to get another base ofc, but what about the rest ? Do you make a macro hatch even knowing that you'd not have enough minerals to spend all ur larvaes on units ?
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On January 09 2013 10:54 RaiZ wrote:When to macro Hatch ? Here's the thing : I grew up in yellow / boxer's era and so I often end my games with a lot of micro only and with tons of cash and I don't know how to spend them properly. Sc2's related, I've some kind of OCD syndrome with the queen's injection : I count in my head 30 sec everytime so that I can get perfect injects (except when I'm facing difficults situations ofc). When you take those 2 things in mind, you have like 2000 minerals but also 24+ larvaes ready with only 3 hatches or so... What would you do ? Obvious solution is to get another base ofc, but what about the rest ? Do you make a macro hatch even knowing that you'd not have enough minerals to spend all ur larvaes on units ?
Depends on the matchup and build your opponent's doing.
I'll assume there's no 2 base all ins, and your opponent did a gasless expand.
ZvP: Get it right at 8:00 or 8:30, or when you're just done making the last drone for your third base, and have all your necessary tech started. If it's after 8:30, you're doing it wrong.
ZvT: Get it after you finish droning the nth base, where n is the number of bases you were on before lair. For 2 base lair, get it once you hit ~50-60 supply, or ~44 drones. For 3 base before gas, get it closer to 70-80 (60ish drones).
In ZvT I don't give timings, because it varies so much. These are just general drone counts you should get your macro hatch on that I use, and pretty sure it's optimal enough.
In ZvZ get it once you're safe on 4 bases, you shouldn't really need it unless you really fuck up your injects.
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I'm watching Stephano and all he does vZ is 15P, 16H 18G. How does this compare with 15H (loss of eco, timing of queens/lings/speed/whatever), and is it worth doing it myself?
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On January 10 2013 04:47 Henk wrote:
I'm watching Stephano and all he does vZ is 15P, 16H 18G. How does this compare with 15H (loss of eco, timing of queens/lings/speed/whatever), and is it worth doing it myself?
It's the most standard ZvZ build and there's pretty much no economy difference to 15h. The only real difference is the larva timings for slightly different attack timings.
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It's easier to defend cheeses with it, you can of course also defend with 15h, but you're probably gonna loose a few drones.
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On January 10 2013 04:47 Henk wrote:
I'm watching Stephano and all he does vZ is 15P, 16H 18G. How does this compare with 15H (loss of eco, timing of queens/lings/speed/whatever), and is it worth doing it myself?
I also saw him go 4 queens 2 delayed gas on maps with small choke on the natural (like cloud kingdom)
I'll try this build on maps like this.
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What are the maps best to be veto'ed in the current season/meta-game?
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On January 10 2013 18:45 Juice! wrote:
What are the maps best to be veto'ed in the current season/meta-game?
I veto akilon (easy 4 bases for a meching T and such), antiga (no 4th base for zerg) and condemned ridge.
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Juice!
What are the maps best to be veto'ed in the current season/meta-game?
Depends on you if you hate dealing with something and you we it happeing over and over again on the same map ten veto it most of the problems these players are dealing with is uassally personal prefence. you could work o simple princlpuls if you wanted. For example i hate playig with lots of bases so i veto (kinda hard to do with all the new maps) but you just veto some of them and that reduces your chances of endding up on a big map. The big problem is that eventually you might have to play on a map you don't like or that is imba for some race. The only way o deal with that is pratice or new diffrent maps highly unlikly for atleast awhile.
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That's a good debate. I vetoed Akilon as well. Because it SUUUUUUUUUX for ZvZ... You cant wall properly against any variation of one or two base ling bane attack. The natural's too wide open and they can pretty much ignore your spine unless your spine is planted as far from your choke as possible, but then your spine has no queen support. I played this map and got one base baneling allined like 5 times in a row and vetoed the map. If i'm wrong somewhere please tell me.
The other new map (district something) is a little annoying for overlord scout. According to me, here's the problem. With your first overlord, you can choose to fly it directly to the main base, u'll scout his build and barely get away in time vs a 15 pool build (his queen will do a little damage to your overlord), but if you do that and enter his base and see a 6-10 pool, it's kinda too late to stockpile larva and make zerglings if you opened 15 pool urself (like i do).
So you're left with one of two choice: scouting early lings running across the map (overlord sent in front of your opponent's natural), but then you wont scout his exact gas/pool timing (unless you take the risk to run in and see his hatch timing?) OR running your overlord to his main and risk to not get the information in time vs 6 pool.
What do u guys think? I'm really thinking of vetoing the two new maps because of this.
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On January 11 2013 08:59 Natalya wrote:
That's a good debate. I vetoed Akilon as well. Because it SUUUUUUUUUX for ZvZ... You cant wall properly against any variation of one or two base ling bane attack. The natural's too wide open and they can pretty much ignore your spine unless your spine is planted as far from your choke as possible, but then your spine has no queen support. I played this map and got one base baneling allined like 5 times in a row and vetoed the map. If i'm wrong somewhere please tell me.
The other new map (district something) is a little annoying for overlord scout. According to me, here's the problem. With your first overlord, you can choose to fly it directly to the main base, u'll scout his build and barely get away in time vs a 15 pool build (his queen will do a little damage to your overlord), but if you do that and enter his base and see a 6-10 pool, it's kinda too late to stockpile larva and make zerglings if you opened 15 pool urself (like i do).
So you're left with one of two choice: scouting early lings running across the map (overlord sent in front of your opponent's natural), but then you wont scout his exact gas/pool timing (unless you take the risk to run in and see his hatch timing?) OR running your overlord to his main and risk to not get the information in time vs 6 pool.
What do u guys think? I'm really thinking of vetoing the two new maps because of this.
Yep, thats exactly what I did (both new maps on veto), for the same reason you mention - they are too big to properly scout with overlords.
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I am a mid gold level player. My problem is what to do when your opponent goes aggressive in the beginning, especially that of zvz, I suck at it. Here is one of my most recent games. If you click on it just press akilon flats (4).
https://sites.google.com/site/zsc2replays/replauy
And also, when I scout, how can I know what build that player is going, can anyone direct me to that information?
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On January 09 2013 04:54 kiklion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2013 16:55 HighLach wrote:On January 08 2013 04:01 Glon wrote:On January 08 2013 02:55 HighLach wrote:On January 08 2013 02:08 Najda wrote:
Anyone have a good all-in for ZvP? I hate that matchup so much I just want it to be over as soon as possible. There is Stephano's classic 3 base roach all-in, but Protoss are pretty good at holding that off these days, depending on what rank you are, you can easily beat a lot of Protosses with this just by practicing macro, and micro(splitting is fun); you can also add in burrow and roach burrow movement. There are guides everywhere, and lots of variations. It also has the benefit of looking like standard play. Someone already mentioned Zenio's baneling all-in, it's a good build. If you want to find a bunch of great all-ins, I would consider taking a look at a lot of Leenock's play, he loves all-ins. One of his most notable is his 10 roach all-in. I'm a huge fan of 8 pool against protoss, but it's less of an all-in and more of a way to take an early advantage. Goodluck! I wouldn't suggest trying to all in protoss - there are no all ins that are reliable in ZvP nowadays. Any kind of all in from the zerg rely on protoss making a mistake WAY more than zerg coming out with sick micro/macro, ect. Instead, I would suggest tackling 1 part of ZvP at a time. Early: Are you getting a hatchery up (either at nat or third due to probe) on time? Mid: Have you built 2 gasses at 6:00? Are you getting a lair/ling speed on time? Later Mid: Have you scouted that your opponent has 3 bases? (If not, BUILD UNITS) Late: Is your Broodlord/infestor/roach/corrupter army in a good position? Are you watching for warp prisms? I suggest trying to improve, not practicing some random all in When I ask a person where to buy drugs, they don't want the answer, "Drugs are bad for you!" GIVE THE MAN HIS ALL-INS! They just don't really exist. You can 6 pool, that's kind of an all-in. As far as I am aware, a sentry/immortal all-in off of a FFE not only is incredibly dangerous to 'standard' 3 hatch before gas openings, but it can also hold any 2 base timings. Zenio's Ling/Bling bust, I feel, is hard countered if toss opens up double sentry after cyber. It doesn't even punish 'greedy' play because Toss wants those sentries out to start building energy.
You can do a roach/ling bust instead of banelings with the zenio opener. Start your gas as early as possible after starting your queen if his probe goes to block your 3rd base (it won't be back to your main before your queen finishes). Only make one queen, move her to the natural, and let yourself get supply blocked at 26/26 (you don't need any more drones). Make a few extra ling as your hatcheries finish so that you can easily push a zealot (and even a stalker) off of the watchtower with slow lings. Drop the roach warren at ~5:20ish, and make sure your queen injected your natural so that you can make 6-7 roaches at your natural, and then rally speedlings. Don't start ling speed right at 100 gas, it will finish too early and he will see it. Instead, start speed at about 160 gas, so it finishes while your roaches are crossing the map. Pull drones off gas as soon as you make the roaches.
You hit a bit later than the baneling bust (because the roaches have to walk), but still before warpgate, and you can still win against sentries, especially if he has a weak wall with a hole and a pylon (or two). Just concentrate on taking down the cannon and putting holes in the wall to allow your lings to run through. When he forcefields the hole, make sure all your lings are attacking buildings (especially the forge, but make sure every ling that can fight is fighting something and not humping a forcefield) and force him to use extra forcefields to protect his buildings (and then you roaches kill the forge and pylons anyway) and then you are through the wall and he is out of forcefields. It is very effective cheese.
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@ Zombie105
High Diamond Zerg here
I'm watching your game on my main monitor while typing
If you accidentally supply block in the opening, build your overlord on 9, and gas trick after.
Hotkeying your Hatchery to 4 may be a better idea than 1.
Build your overlord earlier than where you did in this game.
Any issue you encounter after six minutes would be handled with much more ease with less than 600 min in the bank.
The spines you built have no reason to be there.
You should have taken you expo earlier.
Losing lings to the Banelings.
One base lair at 8:45 against two bases... not wise.
you overbuilt spore crawlers. Two per base ought to be more than enough.
The reason you ended up losing to all of the Muta play is because you took your natural so much later than your opponent. Your economic condition lost you the game, not the aggressiveness of your opponent.
If you have any questions, please feel free to PM me.
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On January 10 2013 04:47 Henk wrote:
I'm watching Stephano and all he does vZ is 15P, 16H 18G. How does this compare with 15H (loss of eco, timing of queens/lings/speed/whatever), and is it worth doing it myself?
The only reason you're getting 15H is because you want to be more heavier on larvae.
With stephano's opening, he's not looking to build many lings. He just wants to get defensive banelings, lair and roaches.
15H allows a player to build more lings for map control. In an equally efficient ling/baneling clash, 15h will overwhelm a poolfirst.
If you notice, if stephano opens like this, he isn't too aggressive with lings. Because its overall more safer, more roach oriented and looking to take a lair first before 3rd base.
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Where's the advantage for Z in ZvP these days?!!? The current metagame feels like this: sit back and try to macro perfectly for the first 10 minutes of the game, then make zero micro mistakes defending the all-in that's coming. It's like "okay, let me collect myself for the haymaker to the jaw that's on its way and hope I don't get knocked out." I've read the guides and try to keep up on metagame, and while I know my play isn't perfect (I'm high-ish plat), it should be on par with my opponents. I feel like I start every ZvP already behind, and only get ahead if I make zero mistakes and he fucks up.
QQ aside, where is the edge for Z here? In ZvT, he can lose his whole army to ling/bane if he's not careful and mutas can take the fight to him; if I let him have his way I better macro perfectly, but I can at least threaten him to throw him off his game. In ZvZ anything can happen, but he who plays better, wins. In both cases, a blind build is a big risk and in general I can react to him with less than 5 minutes of preparation time and survive on even footing with halfway decent tech choices. I usually try to get a couple of base up with minimal units, then either prepare a defense if I sense an attack, or get mutas and try to do some damage while I take my third. In any case, I don't need to race for a particular build through the first 10 minutes -- I can just get drones unless I see lots of units, prepare some light defense to buy time for army units if he does attack, and play reactively.
Obviously the problem is with me, and at the most basic level, I have no idea what I'm trying to do to win ZvP -- I know a 2 base all-in is coming, but my only option seems to be to stand there and take it, knowing it's much easier for the attacker than for me. If I do anything but build a perfect econ and make just the right units at just the right time, then engage perfectly and keep up perfect macro all game, I lose to the all-in I knew was coming from the start of the game. One bad engagement or a slip-up/damage to econ and it's over. God forbid I make an effort to pressure him off his rote BO, since that puts me totally all-in with him at a huge defender's advantage. Or that he mixes it up while I'm frantically trying to build the perfect defense for the wrong all-in. If I'm a few units short during the first fight, it's a race to stay alive while he presses his advantage with no fear of effective pressure from me.
Again, I know this is QQ, but I just don't understand where the upside is for Z in this matchup. He has basically nothing to fear from me while he prepares to attack once he sees I didn't 6 pool. If I build up a huge army early, he can sit back and fortify his army while I try to catch up in econ, then attack when his army is super scary. Otherwise, he can push out with his all-in and win unless I've done everything perfectly to prepare.
What does P have to fear from Z, especially a Z who doesn't have pro mechanics? Where's my advantage outside of simply being better than my opponent?
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Zergs advantage in zvp/zvt is broodlord/corr/infestor. That army is unkillable if you use it correctly in most situations. Only way terran can beat it if you are maxed out is if he gets raven/viking/bc, that will crush it but very hard for terrans to get to. Same in zvp, they can't beat a maxxed bl/corr/infestor army.
As a zerg you unfortunately need to turtle - defend attack - get deathball - win. That's the most consistent way to win games. Doesn't mean aggression isn't possible, but it relies on the terran/protoss not know it's coming or they make a mistake (aka terran doesn't have siege when you do a muta/ling/bane timing cause of greed).
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EPT
