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On December 30 2012 01:52 Hulkoff wrote:Hello. I just played this ZvP on Ohana that I have no idea how I lost. I thought I was in a great position behind a sick spinecrawler wall and like 15~ infestors. Turns out Protoss is strong so he just walked right through it. I have no idea what went wrong and I'm hoping you guys could help me out here. I'm a 1.3-1.4k~ master. http://drop.sc/288994
Before I begin, I'm just a 1.2k points master so you can take my advice or not since you're a little higher xD
I'll ignore the build differences because your timings are pretty good at the start and I know there's a lot of ways to get to lategame. Some rush BLs, others rush a spinewall and festors, some rush for a maxed army of festor/roach/ling and then going for BLs. With so much variation, I'll just assume yours seems to work instead of criticizing it for not being what I go for.
However I will note that his attack type was an archon/chargelot/blinkstalker/sentry/immortal composition which I find strange because its usually a collossi push. Also his push arrives over 60 seconds too late. The collossi/immo/blinkstalker/zealot/sentry/warp prism composition push moves out at 12:30 and arrives around 13:00. His first shots fire on your army at 14:01.
The biggest problem here was literally the engagement. Your positioning was pretty bad since your spines infestors and army were all crowded near your third and not flanking. Your targets when you're using the mass spines festor turtle delaying BLs 'till 15:00 or so are the sentries. If you fungal the sentries 2-3 times, they should die. Once he has no ffs, your composition can just surround and bowl over him. However your fungals and ITs hit his units instead of the sentries giving him a decisive advantage.
My recommendation here is to simply go for the 14:00 BL rush. You need festor pit as soon as your lair is done, hive before infestors and spire before them too. You rush to the tech and then start massing festors/spines and lings with a smattering of roaches. If your spire/hive/pit/lair timings are solid, you should have BLs not just morphing, but actually already done and firing broodlings at 13:45-13:50 however most just round it up to a "14:00" timing. Although if you want that extra 10-15 seconds, it really can help.
That recommendation being said, I also believe you were in a fine position to defend the attack. Your targetting with the fungals was quite off though and cost you that engagement and eventually the game.
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I am so so sorry for this double-post, but this is the 9001st reply. ITS OVER 9000!!!
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On December 30 2012 03:46 sCCrooked wrote:
I am so so sorry for this double-post, but this is the 9001st reply. ITS OVER 9000!!!
Fun fact:
Not only did you get 9001st reply, but you also got 9001st post with your previous one!
Nice!
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On December 30 2012 01:52 Hulkoff wrote:Hello. I just played this ZvP on Ohana that I have no idea how I lost. I thought I was in a great position behind a sick spinecrawler wall and like 15~ infestors. Turns out Protoss is strong so he just walked right through it. I have no idea what went wrong and I'm hoping you guys could help me out here. I'm a 1.3-1.4k~ master. http://drop.sc/288994
Let me try to add some meaningfull points even though i'm so far below you league wise 
1. Creep Spread.
Your creep spread is almost non existing. At 12 mins you have exactly 1 creep tumor and you haven't even reached your own watch tower. I do believe one extra Queen simply for creep spread is very usefull. What use is a spine crawlers wall when you won't ever reach the middle of the map with it since you have zero creep?
2. Infestor control
If you plan to defend solely on the strenght of Infestors your control needs to be spot on. In the first engagement you lose 2-3 high energy infestors for no reason and in the second engagement you lose 5 for again no reason. You should need to be able to chain fungal the Toss to death without using more than 1 infestor each time.
3. Why Spine Crawlers.
You have indeed a sick Spine Crawler wall, but what is it for? The Protoss took an extremely risky early third so he's even macro wise. Since the spine wall doesn't defend the fourth he could simply have killed it and expanded himself. With no creep he could have denied any expansions until Broods came, which was still quite a long time. What is the point of a spine wall when it doesn't cover your 4th and you won't be able to be agressive with it due to no creep?
4. Upgrade Timings
This is a minute point but I noticed a significant delay in your upgrade timings. +1 Melee finishes at 12:07 but you only start +2 at 13:09, which is a full minute later. +1 Carapace ends at 13;22 (isn't that quite late considering you're so ling heavy?) and you never start +2 Carapace. During the engagements your 1/1 lings get shredded by 2/1 zealots. With 2/2 lings this might have been a different outcome.
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On December 30 2012 01:52 Hulkoff wrote:Hello. I just played this ZvP on Ohana that I have no idea how I lost. I thought I was in a great position behind a sick spinecrawler wall and like 15~ infestors. Turns out Protoss is strong so he just walked right through it. I have no idea what went wrong and I'm hoping you guys could help me out here. I'm a 1.3-1.4k~ master. http://drop.sc/288994
You definitely need a roach mid game - you MUST get roaches an continue to use them. In straight up encounters, roaches far outclass zerglings and create good timings with your first 8 brood lords (you can actually push with brood lord roach infestor, you CANNOT push with brood lord ling infestor)
I tend to upgrade missile attack and melee upgrades - armor for ground isn't really as needed due to the fungal mechanic as your go into the late game - the key units taking damage are broodlings and brood lords, and ground armor doesn't add much to either. You just lost to an all in timing that, had you defended with a proper mid game composition, you would have breezed through.
Also consider delaying your hive a minute in order to grab an earlier spire - it helps A LOT to deal with these kinds of all ins
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What upgrades do you guys get in ZvP and in what order? I usually start with +1 carapace then get +2/2 range attack but then I don't know if I should start upgrading melee for broodlings.
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On December 30 2012 07:12 Kraelog wrote:
3. Why Spine Crawlers.
You have indeed a sick Spine Crawler wall, but what is it for? The Protoss took an extremely risky early third so he's even macro wise. Since the spine wall doesn't defend the fourth he could simply have killed it and expanded himself. With no creep he could have denied any expansions until Broods came, which was still quite a long time. What is the point of a spine wall when it doesn't cover your 4th and you won't be able to be agressive with it due to no creep?
The location of you wall of spine is map dependant. On Ohana, for instance, you cant have a spine wall that covers 3rd + 4rth, it's simply not possible. What I do on Ohana is take the 4rth, make 5 or so spines there so they cant just run a few zealots but have to commit their army to kill it which opens a counter attack for me. + sick spine wall protecting 3rd/nat
Your reaction also depends on the ennemy army composition. I'd classify protoss compositions into two types at this point. On one side, you have colossus pushes, on the other you have immortal or archons chargelot pushes. The thing is that busting a spine wall with colossus goes slowly, because unless the protoss wants to eat full fungals on his stalkers he cant a-move everything but has to siege the crawlers from afar. The other types of composition, mix of immortals, archons and zealots, just dont care and a-move through you wall. What it does mean is that a colossus based army cant kill you spine wall very fast unless they want to take huge damage.
So what I do most of the time against colossus type push is position my army for counter attack (like at the ennemy's 4rth location), counter attack as soon as he leaves his base. It leaves him with a choice. Going back to kill your lings that already dealt damage and be in a lose-lose situation since your infestors are safe behind your wall and he's only killing lings, which means the Z is getting closer to a sick brood count. Or go base trade and a-move through your spine wall, losing a ton of stuff to corrupters+ a ton of infested terrans+ fungals, with the risk of getting overrun by your reinforcements.
Against immortal/archons/zealots type of push, as Glon said, you need to hold at your spine wall with roaches and infestors and SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM infested terrans. I think they're better than fungal because you dont have the damage bonus against stalkers and they lack splash damage. They will also tank for your spines to do damage (Dont tie up supply in corruptor if possible). Because if you try to go trade base style, they'll a-move through all ur bases and possibly win, which is bad :D
On December 30 2012 11:50 Najda wrote:
What upgrades do you guys get in ZvP and in what order? I usually start with +1 carapace then get +2/2 range attack but then I don't know if I should start upgrading melee for broodlings.
There are different schools on the subject. Early carapace seems good to hold the sentry immo all in. Some players like Leenock will double upgrade melee and missile attack and never upgrade armor. Some will upgrade melee/carapace and never touch missile. Ideally in late game you want every upgrade. Armor to not get two-shoted by zealots when you defend against drops (or skip armor if you're confident in defending with spines/spores). Melee attack for ling backstab and broodlings, missile attack for infested terrans or roach remax to finish the game if the protoss pushed midgame and failed.
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this is just a standard question. i saw jaedong selecting like 13 units and he clicked the 8th unit. this left him with 8 selected units, how do you do that? (please no trolls)
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On December 30 2012 19:44 r1flEx wrote:
this is just a standard question. i saw jaedong selecting like 13 units and he clicked the 8th unit. this left him with 8 selected units, how do you do that? (please no trolls)
ctrl+click isolates one type of unit in the selection window, i'm guessing that's what he did
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On December 30 2012 20:25 Exoteric wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 19:44 r1flEx wrote:
this is just a standard question. i saw jaedong selecting like 13 units and he clicked the 8th unit. this left him with 8 selected units, how do you do that? (please no trolls) ctrl+click isolates one type of unit in the selection window, i'm guessing that's what he did
ok, so it only works if you have diffirent types of units then?
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Does anyone know the standard timing for your first extractor as zerg? I heard it is 17 but i'm not sure why that number.
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On December 30 2012 19:44 r1flEx wrote:
this is just a standard question. i saw jaedong selecting like 13 units and he clicked the 8th unit. this left him with 8 selected units, how do you do that? (please no trolls)
He either ctrl-clicks to select one type of unit (For example, selecting 8 drones out of greenboxing drones/queens/overlords)
Or, he selected 13 units (Say, 13 lings) and then shift-clicks 5 times to get 8 units. (One shift-click removes one unit from your selection).
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On December 30 2012 21:52 obis wrote:
Does anyone know the standard timing for your first extractor as zerg? I heard it is 17 but i'm not sure why that number.
Obviously you need to specify the matchup. I'm going to assume you mean ZvT- in which case you could take it at 17, although I like to go 4 queen and take all 4 gases at 6:00.
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On December 30 2012 22:20 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 21:52 obis wrote:
Does anyone know the standard timing for your first extractor as zerg? I heard it is 17 but i'm not sure why that number. Obviously you need to specify the matchup. I'm going to assume you mean ZvT- in which case you could take it at 17, although I like to go 4 queen and take all 4 gases at 6:00.
It's 6 queen then
4 queen (2 injects + 2 creepspread) is gas @ 17
6 queens (2 injects + 4 creepspread) is gas @ 6:00
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Sorry, for the match ups i meant all of them zvz, zvt and zvp. but why do you say 17 supply for zvt? why that number, is that when you are because you are fully saturated in your main?
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On December 30 2012 22:38 obis wrote:
Sorry, for the match ups i meant all of them zvz, zvt and zvp. but why do you say 17 supply for zvt? why that number, is that when you are because you are fully saturated in your main?
Usually you would go 15H, 16H 17G in ZvT, I may be mistaken, it might be 16G: I personally always go 4 queen. It's amazing!
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Top Masters Terran switching to Zerg after a 6 month hiatus... links to any good zerg guides?
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EPT
