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On December 27 2012 20:32 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 18:58 Invictusss wrote:How would you guys go about defending a hellion banshee opener? I open 15h 16p into gasless 4 queens followed by all gas taken around 44 supply and i'm having a hard time defending against said opening. Even if i do defend against it, I would've lost a base and would be far behind to recover.  I generally do the same, and take 4 gas at 6:00. (Not sure at howmuch supply that is). Then place 2 evo's + a spine at the entrance of the natural to wall off. Get speed-lair-1/1 with your next 450 gas. (I used to take 1/1 before lair, but I feel cloak banshees can be so very annoying then, picking off anything that's not covered by spores. Get an overseer as soon as your lair pops). You really shouldn't be having problems with this- pump some lings when you have the minerals for it (after you placed your third, but before droning it up. You should be saturated on 2 bases now) I generally have my queens on 5, but I have the 2 creep spreading queens on hotkey 2, together with an overseer. (Thus-not in the '5' group). This allows you to deal with banshees better IMO, because your injecting queens don't derp around everywhere if you only use '2' to fight off banshees. Hope this helps a bit
Hmm i see, i think my problem is the continuation to drone up even after scouting hellion banshee. Normally if i see 2 hellions on their way I'd take my 3rd asap then continue droning. So i guess when i scout 2 hellions making their way to my base i should stop drone prodcution and start pumping enough lings to hold the attack off?
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On December 27 2012 15:30 BlessedHammers wrote:
if im not going to use infestors what are the next best things to use? im in bronze and generally when i make infestors i dont feel that great with them. i own marines with them but other then that all late game units blow up my infested terrans with mad aoe and thats not even everything. they feel so squishy too. die a lot when going in for the fungals
also a side question im rank 1 bronze how many wins should i expect before a promoation..? like 5+ or 15+ or what just want a general idea
hopefully someone can answer this questions
Yeah I agree with Defenstrator. Depends on the match up but any ground-based composition is incredibly high dps. Then transition into Tier 3 Broodlords or Ultralisks when you get the chance and you're set. Even if your main army is not infestors, never hurts to have 4-5 supporting your army with fungals.
I believe promotion is based off points and you need to have no bonus pool available. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong about that.
@Invictusss - Your initial reaction to keep droning isn't wrong after only seeing 2 hellions. Two hellions is just standard, could mean Mech, could mean 1 banshee or none, or transition into Bio. Basically it means nothing, you need to scout more to be sure. If you want to be more safe, more queens > lings and spread creep to your third. You really need speedlings imo to deal with this, I want to use Jaedong's game on Ohana as a reference but the VOD is nonexistent.
Basically the guy came at him with 8-9 hellions and 3 Banshee, he lost all his queens and most of his Lings, he just kept buying time to keep the 3rd alive and slowly moved a Spore crawler closer and closer in to defend and massed queens. Like 5-6 even after his initial 4 died.
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When I face voidray/phoenix openings should I be fighting to keep my 3rd alive or not? If I don't have creep to the 3rd it's generally an all or nothing attempt to send all my queens over.
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On December 27 2012 23:33 DarKcS wrote:
When I face voidray/phoenix openings should I be fighting to keep my 3rd alive or not? If I don't have creep to the 3rd it's generally an all or nothing attempt to send all my queens over.
Do you mean voidray/phoenix with 4 gate +1 attack the same time? If not, just make one spore in the mineral line and one spore on the other side of every hatchery and you are fine. You should see voidrays/phoenixes coming with your overlords in time to do that.
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On December 27 2012 23:26 Slardar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 15:30 BlessedHammers wrote:
if im not going to use infestors what are the next best things to use? im in bronze and generally when i make infestors i dont feel that great with them. i own marines with them but other then that all late game units blow up my infested terrans with mad aoe and thats not even everything. they feel so squishy too. die a lot when going in for the fungals
also a side question im rank 1 bronze how many wins should i expect before a promoation..? like 5+ or 15+ or what just want a general idea
hopefully someone can answer this questions Yeah I agree with Defenstrator. Depends on the match up but any ground-based composition is incredibly high dps. Then transition into Tier 3 Broodlords or Ultralisks when you get the chance and you're set. Even if your main army is not infestors, never hurts to have 4-5 supporting your army with fungals. I believe promotion is based off points and you need to have no bonus pool available. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong about that. @Invictusss - Your initial reaction to keep droning isn't wrong after only seeing 2 hellions. Two hellions is just standard, could mean Mech, could mean 1 banshee or none, or transition into Bio. Basically it means nothing, you need to scout more to be sure. If you want to be more safe, more queens > lings and spread creep to your third. You really need speedlings imo to deal with this, I want to use Jaedong's game on Ohana as a reference but the VOD is nonexistent. Basically the guy came at him with 8-9 hellions and 3 Banshee, he lost all his queens and most of his Lings, he just kept buying time to keep the 3rd alive and slowly moved a Spore crawler closer and closer in to defend and massed queens. Like 5-6 even after his initial 4 died.
Hm, i find it hard to determine how committed is T to hellion and banshee after the hellions kill my initial lings at the towers, the sacrificial ovie doesn't really scout anything other than his tech path and army compo.
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On December 27 2012 23:47 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 23:33 DarKcS wrote:
When I face voidray/phoenix openings should I be fighting to keep my 3rd alive or not? If I don't have creep to the 3rd it's generally an all or nothing attempt to send all my queens over. Do you mean voidray/phoenix with 4 gate +1 attack the same time? If not, just make one spore in the mineral line and one spore on the other side of every hatchery and you are fine. You should see voidrays/phoenixes coming with your overlords in time to do that.
This is correct. In every situation, there's almost no reason to lose your third. Even just pulling all of your queens and quickly throwing down 3-4 emergency spores will save it (say if it was like a 2 stargate that you didn't see). Don't forget to put down 1-2 in your main/natural though, don't want him just moving to your main and killing everything there.
Also don't forget to control the map with zerglings. If you see gateway units moving out with a probe (you already should have scoured the map for a proxy pylon), make roaches/lings. In the case of a stargate/+1 gateway aggression, roaches and queens are your friends. Zerglings tend to melt, however are great for spotting around them and harassing the proxy pylon(s) while the protoss is making his first pokes with his zealots.
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On December 27 2012 23:26 Slardar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 15:30 BlessedHammers wrote:
if im not going to use infestors what are the next best things to use? im in bronze and generally when i make infestors i dont feel that great with them. i own marines with them but other then that all late game units blow up my infested terrans with mad aoe and thats not even everything. they feel so squishy too. die a lot when going in for the fungals
also a side question im rank 1 bronze how many wins should i expect before a promoation..? like 5+ or 15+ or what just want a general idea
hopefully someone can answer this questions I believe promotion is based off points and you need to have no bonus pool available. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong about that.
Some people already answered the other parts, so I'll focus on correcting this.
Promotions are a complicated and secret system in SC2. Its based on a hidden rating called "MMR" or your Match-Making-Rating. There's a tool for sc2gears that can calculate it pretty accurately, but its all based on conjecture since Blizzard completely refuses to reveal how this rating is figured out and refuses to get rid of it or make it visible to players.
It has nothing to do with bonus pool, it has nothing to do with your number rank within your division. #1 masters in some divisions even right now this close to the end of the season wouldn't even break the top 50 in other more difficult divisions.
Mass games, keep playing. Once you never face a bronze again, you'll know you're close. I'm not talking about you had 1 in 8 games, I mean if you NEVER EVER face a bronze even once in say.... 30 ladder games in a row no exceptions, then yeah you're ridiculously close to promotion.
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On December 28 2012 01:26 Glon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 23:47 Natalya wrote:On December 27 2012 23:33 DarKcS wrote:
When I face voidray/phoenix openings should I be fighting to keep my 3rd alive or not? If I don't have creep to the 3rd it's generally an all or nothing attempt to send all my queens over. Do you mean voidray/phoenix with 4 gate +1 attack the same time? If not, just make one spore in the mineral line and one spore on the other side of every hatchery and you are fine. You should see voidrays/phoenixes coming with your overlords in time to do that. This is correct. In every situation, there's almost no reason to lose your third. Even just pulling all of your queens and quickly throwing down 3-4 emergency spores will save it (say if it was like a 2 stargate that you didn't see). Don't forget to put down 1-2 in your main/natural though, don't want him just moving to your main and killing everything there.
Thanks. But last time I faced this, I was up against 3 voids 5 phoenix, they went in to my main and I had 4 spores on all sides, they focus fired down one spore and raped all my queens.
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On December 28 2012 12:17 DarKcS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 01:26 Glon wrote:On December 27 2012 23:47 Natalya wrote:On December 27 2012 23:33 DarKcS wrote:
When I face voidray/phoenix openings should I be fighting to keep my 3rd alive or not? If I don't have creep to the 3rd it's generally an all or nothing attempt to send all my queens over. Do you mean voidray/phoenix with 4 gate +1 attack the same time? If not, just make one spore in the mineral line and one spore on the other side of every hatchery and you are fine. You should see voidrays/phoenixes coming with your overlords in time to do that. This is correct. In every situation, there's almost no reason to lose your third. Even just pulling all of your queens and quickly throwing down 3-4 emergency spores will save it (say if it was like a 2 stargate that you didn't see). Don't forget to put down 1-2 in your main/natural though, don't want him just moving to your main and killing everything there. Thanks. But last time I faced this, I was up against 3 voids 5 phoenix, they went in to my main and I had 4 spores on all sides, they focus fired down one spore and raped all my queens.
Are you remembering to scout? Did you read the write up I had on ZvP?
If you know a 2 stargate play is coming, just throw down 3 spores in your third, 2 in your main/nat, and get 3-4 extra queens
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Why 14 Pool instead of 15 Pool? I'm sure difference is pretty much negligable, but your no safer from a 10p doing 14 because the 14p and 15p both can make the 2nd pair of lings at the same time.
About infestor fights in zvz, how do you decide to use fungals or IT's? do you just carpet fungal everything then spam inbetween the constant fungals?
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On December 29 2012 00:31 Host- wrote:
Why 14 Pool instead of 15 Pool? I'm sure difference is pretty much negligable, but your no safer from a 10p doing 14 because the 14p and 15p both can make the 2nd pair of lings at the same time.
About infestor fights in zvz, how do you decide to use fungals or IT's? do you just carpet fungal everything then spam inbetween the constant fungals?
Kind of depends on your concave. If all his roaches are clumped up, fungal them. If you're both nicely spread and a fungal catches a maximum of 5 roaches you might just want to spam IT. Be sure to make sure he can't leave though; or all your energy is wasted. (For example; fighting at this 4th at daybreak - He can't leave, because he'll lose the game if you take control of that area. Fighting at a random area without any bases, such as the center of tal'darim - be careful with IT energy.)
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What are the latest gas timings if a zerg go 2 base aggression against terran?
I want to know when it is definetely a no gas queen opening and i can get my 3rd way earlier.
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On December 29 2012 07:47 saaaa wrote:
What are the latest gas timings if a zerg go 2 base aggression against terran?
I want to know when it is definetely a no gas queen opening and i can get my 3rd way earlier.
I believe a 24 gas is standard 2 base all in time, 27 is generally a macro-oriented gas timing but can definitely be used to all-in as well.
According to sc2planner, 24 gas is 4:00 and 27 gas is ~4:15. So if he has no gas by 4:30 you can be sure it's macro play.
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On December 29 2012 07:54 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 07:47 saaaa wrote:
What are the latest gas timings if a zerg go 2 base aggression against terran?
I want to know when it is definetely a no gas queen opening and i can get my 3rd way earlier. I believe a 24 gas is standard 2 base all in time, 27 is generally a macro-oriented gas timing but can definitely be used to all-in as well. According to sc2planner, 24 gas is 4:00 and 27 gas is ~4:15. So if he has no gas by 4:30 you can be sure it's macro play.
I would not agree on this. Agression builds with slow roaches and no lings are possible with gas timings after the scv left the base. So you can never know for sure. But if your scv see no gas and the pool is done, you can only know there wont be speedlings.
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On December 29 2012 09:45 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 07:54 Mavvie wrote:On December 29 2012 07:47 saaaa wrote:
What are the latest gas timings if a zerg go 2 base aggression against terran?
I want to know when it is definetely a no gas queen opening and i can get my 3rd way earlier. I believe a 24 gas is standard 2 base all in time, 27 is generally a macro-oriented gas timing but can definitely be used to all-in as well. According to sc2planner, 24 gas is 4:00 and 27 gas is ~4:15. So if he has no gas by 4:30 you can be sure it's macro play. I would not agree on this. Agression builds with slow roaches and no lings are possible with gas timings after the scv left the base. So you can never know for sure. But if your scv see no gas and the pool is done, you can only know there wont be speedlings.
This is correct. Just do standard timings to hold the watchtowers (your first 3 marines), and have a bunker ready regardless of what gas timing you see. Just remember that if you see a fast gas, to move your three marines back quickly after taking the tower (or maybe not moving them out at all, depending on how early the gas timing is)
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Ok my bad. But what kind of build is like that? I mean I've seen some roach timings that are just pressure (no ling/bane), but I didn't think that's what he meant because 1 bunker can hold those off.
Re-reading it, he did say aggression so I guess. Do what glon said 
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On December 29 2012 12:22 Mavvie wrote:Ok my bad. But what kind of build is like that? I mean I've seen some roach timings that are just pressure (no ling/bane), but I didn't think that's what he meant because 1 bunker can hold those off. Re-reading it, he did say aggression so I guess. Do what glon said
The build he's referring to is probably the roach/ling all-in.
I believe you take double gas at 28 after you are sure the SCV is either dead or can't get back in to check stuff. then roach warren, 3 OV and roaches from 28 to 52 supply, then you get speed and like 30-something lings to follow it up with.
Since its so deceptive in its execution, its really one of the last all-ins viable vs Terrans.
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I tend to not think in terms of specific and precise builds that X or Y pro showed, because there is an infinity of those builds since everyone has its own little variation on it. I tend to think more in terms of possibility. What a zerg can do once your scv has left his base? He can double gas, make 8 roaches or so, send them alone cross map and follow up with whatever he wants to (more roaches, or drones, or a third, or whatever). I've seen pro matches showcasing this build and it can do great damage (namely, kill a full bunker and a handfull of scv) because it hit really fast, at a time where terran would not expect anything but speedlings.
I guess i stopped to think in terms of specific builds (like if a Zerg had only 4-5 precise early game agression builds with different composition of roaches, lings and banes), because I used to think in those terms... and I used to end up in a bad spot when my opponent did something that was not one of those builds. I was feeling too often like my opponent was "not supposed to do this" and I started to use builds that could defend against anything. That's why i opened 6 queen gasless into super early 3rd every zvt If i'd be terran i'd go 3 oc into 4 helions into tanks i guess :D U're greedy and safe. What else would you possibly want? except that... terran cant let Z do their own things for two long. So I will never play terran ;D
Back on the subject of early zvt, you can think of z possibilities like this :
- speedling agression (you would see a gas with scv)
- slowlings (not likely unless the Z wanna troll :D Hellions would counter this too hard)
- speedling roach (you would see a gas)
- speedling bane (you would see a gas. This is the so called baneling bust)
- pure slow roach
- slowroach slowbane (not likely because the ling needs to cross the map fast to become banelings)
- slowroach slowbane + speedling (you would see a gas). This is the typical DRG ling-bane-roach semi all-in
So the only likely agression coming out of gasless opening is a slow roach one.
But i'd not have spoken of pure slowroach agression if i had not seen it in pro rep because we do not wanna mislead ppl in this thread. So i guess anyone know about how my brain works right now :d
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Hello. I just played this ZvP on Ohana that I have no idea how I lost. I thought I was in a great position behind a sick spinecrawler wall and like 15~ infestors. Turns out Protoss is strong so he just walked right through it. I have no idea what went wrong and I'm hoping you guys could help me out here. I'm a 1.3-1.4k~ master.
http://drop.sc/288994
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On December 30 2012 01:52 Hulkoff wrote:Hello. I just played this ZvP on Ohana that I have no idea how I lost. I thought I was in a great position behind a sick spinecrawler wall and like 15~ infestors. Turns out Protoss is strong so he just walked right through it. I have no idea what went wrong and I'm hoping you guys could help me out here. I'm a 1.3-1.4k~ master. http://drop.sc/288994
one big mistake I noticed is that you had only 2 drones in one of your 3rd base gases
also you didn't use your gas at your 4th once they were completed (you also had only 2 drones at one gas)
another issue is that you only made your spire very late (hive was 72% done), you should make it at the same time you start hive~ I think you could have broodlords for his push (or during his push) if you teched to it faster
your spines wall was nice but I think you need roach against that kind of push, at least to buffer damage because you couldn't do much with your lings against archons =/
Ah, I think you should "shift" when you're dropping infested terrans, so you can a lot more at once, dropping 5 6 doesn't really matter for the protoss (especially since the hp reduction)
at the end you make 23 drones, I don't know why but I guess you tilted there.
Well, one thing to remember is that you want to tech to broodlords asap (because that's kinda the only answer you have in mid/late game). Even if you lose your 4th (and even your 3rd) you can still manage to come back with broodlords/infestors.
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EPT
