Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
Roach max should work. 3hatch, drone up, take 3-4 gas, get +1 missile and lair for roach speed. Pump roaches, prevent third, add spire in case you see colossi (then build corruptors).
Turns out in Platinum every Protoss knows they need to attack before 11 minutes. They're doing sentry/immortal pushes at 9-10, or dropping zealots in my mineral lines. Even doing the roach max perfectly isn't enough to beat most Protoss.
So... you're saying you should just consult the sentry-immortal thread? I don't think I understand what you want. Are you really getting hit by a Parting triple immortal push before 10min or something? Because then I can provide no real help to you, and you should definitely read through the relevant thread.
Hm, dropping zealots (i.e. warp prism harass) is pretty different from sentry immortal, especially since roach max should work quite well against it. Yeah quite confused here... you're asking about a build but also talking about losing to tactical things like harassment?
harsh words reduced to avoid a wall of text quoted
Well my problem starts at the 6 mns mark up to the 10/11 mns.I guess i'll have to check strict build orders. I need more discipline and practice for that time window.
Anyone has a link for this build order?For protoss of course. when to make the third, take 2nd and 3rd gas.From what i saw my third should be up around the 4.30, 5 mns.
Thanks for help.
Uh... I'm saying your problem starts at like 3min. By 6 min you're already suffering from the ill effects. Just use your larvae constantly. Remind yourself to build drones every 5 seconds if necessary.
I'm having trouble defending a 2rax. It doesnt even have to be an 11/11, but an 11/12, 12/12 or even 12/13 seems to screw me over. Specifically, I'm talking about Cloud Kingdom. He can wall off my natural with three bunkers and I can't do anything about it. Anyone have any ideas how I can break a bunker contain? Banelings might work, I've never tried that.
On November 28 2012 09:05 FeyverN wrote: I'm having trouble defending a 2rax. It doesnt even have to be an 11/11, but an 11/12, 12/12 or even 12/13 seems to screw me over. Specifically, I'm talking about Cloud Kingdom. He can wall off my natural with three bunkers and I can't do anything about it. Anyone have any ideas how I can break a bunker contain? Banelings might work, I've never tried that.
I haven't played against this on CK, but it's also doable on Shakuras. This is pretty darned allin, and basically it's in your best interest to stop this from going down, or you will almost certainly lose your hatchery. When you drone-scout, keep him alive and put him at the watchtower (either one should be fine for this). When you see him moving out with marines and SCV's, pull ALL (yes, all) your drones to the area where he can block you off and hold him off with drones. At this point you should have a little money for lings, so once you get lings out and a queen, this is not such a big deal. Pull back to your natural and go back to mining, and get a spine when you can.
It's really better to leave 3-4 drones mining, but you need a lot of drones to stop this kind of thing since you won't have lings out in time. Once you buy time for your lings with your drones, you should be fine. Also try to time your drone pull with when he'll arrive at your base, but it's better safe than sorry =P
On CK if he's out of range of your hatchery (I'm not sure how close it is), then just get a spine or 2 and poke away at his bunkers while going for a baneling bust. You can do other 2-base strats as well such as mutas or something, but he's not gaining much if he just puts down 3 bunkers that early and isn't in range of killing your hatchery.
On November 28 2012 09:05 FeyverN wrote: I'm having trouble defending a 2rax. It doesnt even have to be an 11/11, but an 11/12, 12/12 or even 12/13 seems to screw me over. Specifically, I'm talking about Cloud Kingdom. He can wall off my natural with three bunkers and I can't do anything about it. Anyone have any ideas how I can break a bunker contain? Banelings might work, I've never tried that.
throw down spines, if possible spread creep from your main to the edge of the base and have a spine ready to plant there(it's right above the highground in your main, it allows you to hit the bunkers and target scvs if he has any with the rush), most of the time banelings will be too late for them to work and you may lose your hatchery, the best possible scenario is you pull drones and never let the bunkers up in the first place.
On November 28 2012 09:05 FeyverN wrote: I'm having trouble defending a 2rax. It doesnt even have to be an 11/11, but an 11/12, 12/12 or even 12/13 seems to screw me over. Specifically, I'm talking about Cloud Kingdom. He can wall off my natural with three bunkers and I can't do anything about it. Anyone have any ideas how I can break a bunker contain? Banelings might work, I've never tried that.
I love 2rax. But do you mean he walls your ramp, or builds a line of three bunkers where you would simcity against hellions? Because the first is nearly an auto-loss, and the second is ...weird. Can he even hit your natural hatch from that wall? My instinct is that it dies to spines, with few lings and late queens. That is, plant two spines, keep droning, add a third spine, keep droning, walk spines into range, build queens, break out. You end up 2 base near saturation, and can pressure with lings while you plant your third.
Oh and keep in mind that the canonical 2rax doesn't do a triple bunker thing, I think three bunkers doesn't allow continuous marine production or something? Meh, not really sure, just a point I wanted to add.
Post a replay please, it will explain much more, and very quickly. Though I do want to add that 2rax issues are generally due to zerg fighting scvs and not actually chasing down the marines, building the spine in an exposed position, and forcing engagements when you don't need to (no bunker in range of hatch, etc.).
Can someone shed some light on going the TLO muta style that he did against Mana at the ROG?
I know he gets gas at 5:30 gets speed. Doesn't fully saturate his third, and cuts drones and flood lings.
But can someone tell me.
Do I pull drones off of gas after speed? How many?
When do I put up gases 2-3, what about 4-6?
How should I respond to random 4 gate (off of a FFE) zealot pressure. This is easy enough when I open gasless 3 hatch into double gas at 6:00- and a roach warren at 6:30 (assuming I see no gas at his natural by then).
But how should I adapt if I take gas at 5:30 and then see that he didn't take gas at 6:30. Am I too behind on gas to get roaches in time for his push?
Hi, I have some trouble lately versus the extremely common Hellion/Banshee opener from 2 bases. I take my 3rd @40 supply with 4 queens and get 2 evos at the naturals ramp slightly later. I'm not sure how I can protect my 3rd while preventing the Terran from running into my main with the hellions. should I just take a macro hatch and expand later with some roaches as support or should I get roaches earlier to take the 3rd or should I just get like 20 lings to kill of the hellions with these? (I'm master)
2 evos, a spine, and a queen should be enough to fully wall off your natural. There, for 2 supply you've denied him access to 2 of your bases.Honestly just open 6 queen, and go up to 7 after your third finishes (I'm a little obsessive). 4(then 5) queens, 1 spine, and 1 spore at your third can easily defend hellion/banshee (and any other build actually). Obviously make reactive lings if he 2 base bio all ins you or something stupid. If you post some replays I can look at it to see where you went wrong, but you should be safe to drone 3 bases behind 2 spores in each mineral line, a spore+spine+2 evo + queen wall at natural, and 1 spine + 4 queens at your third. It can't hurt to make 10 lings, most Terrans suicide their hellions into your third base mineral line anyway. If he has more than 8 hellions be super wary of mech/BFH timings. Just sac your third (no excuse to not save every single drone) and wall your natural with another evo, get roaches ASAP, and then expand and play standard. Scout his followup, etc. I like fast upgrades to hit a 2/2 or 3/3 roach/infestor timing against Terrans who do 2+ fact before armory play, as you can have a significant advantage in upgrade timings.
Hi all. I'm in Bronze league. This morning I beat a silver player by holding out against a thor rush all-in. There were three Thors and a bunch of SCVs and marines all off one base at first as well as reinforcements over time. It hit around 8 min on Tal'Darim Altar. I was doing a 15 hatch 15 pool build going into mass roaches. I was able to hold it off eventually by switching to slow zerglings and trying to remember injects.
I was able to hold it, as mentioned, but what is the "correct" way to deal with such an all-in? I made some spine crawlers but they didn't hold up very well. Should I have started zergling speed and started pumping out lings right away? I can upload a replay later if needed.
On November 29 2012 10:37 MikeyH wrote: Hi all. I'm in Bronze league. This morning I beat a silver player by holding out against a thor rush all-in. There were three Thors and a bunch of SCVs and marines all off one base at first as well as reinforcements over time. It hit around 8 min on Tal'Darim Altar. I was doing a 15 hatch 15 pool build going into mass roaches. I was able to hold it off eventually by switching to slow zerglings and trying to remember injects.
I was able to hold it, as mentioned, but what is the "correct" way to deal with such an all-in? I made some spine crawlers but they didn't hold up very well. Should I have started zergling speed and started pumping out lings right away? I can upload a replay later if needed.
Thanks!
I don't mean to sound generic, but the "correct" way to deal with an all-in like that is to simply make units. If you learn an actual build order and stick to it, such an all-in will very likely not be able to threaten you. The sheer number of units difference really is just that big.
I hit top 8 bronze no problem, but now that I'm there, every time I play Terran, they send marine/marauders around 12 minutes and shut down anything I try to defend with.
On November 29 2012 10:37 MikeyH wrote: Hi all. I'm in Bronze league. This morning I beat a silver player by holding out against a thor rush all-in. There were three Thors and a bunch of SCVs and marines all off one base at first as well as reinforcements over time. It hit around 8 min on Tal'Darim Altar. I was doing a 15 hatch 15 pool build going into mass roaches. I was able to hold it off eventually by switching to slow zerglings and trying to remember injects.
I was able to hold it, as mentioned, but what is the "correct" way to deal with such an all-in? I made some spine crawlers but they didn't hold up very well. Should I have started zergling speed and started pumping out lings right away? I can upload a replay later if needed.
Thanks!
I don't mean to sound generic, but the "correct" way to deal with an all-in like that is to simply make units. If you learn an actual build order and stick to it, such an all-in will very likely not be able to threaten you. The sheer number of units difference really is just that big.
Listen to this guy.
Then if you're still having problems, roaches beat thors, and a few banes will wipe up the scvs. Add ling reinforcements.
Seriously though, just make units. Lots of slow lings will beat it, just as you experienced yourself. It is way more important to have stuff, especially in bronze.
On November 29 2012 12:43 Falcon-sw wrote: Fuck it I'm switching to Protoss. I haven't beat a Protoss in weeks. Miss an inject, miss a timing and I get raped every single time.
Just gotta work on some forcefield mico (hold F, spam click) and I'll be in Diamond in no time.
Zerg mechanics are just too unforgiving.
You know, I had this issue too. I would either miss an inject or toss would sneak up on my and FF my army to death. So I started adding an extra, earlier macro hatch, and it seems to work well, because I never feel larvae-starved anymore. Which is great because while 3 hatch 3 queen might be enough for roach heavy play, when I want a swell of lings to deal with immortals and stalkers, there's not enough larvae for lings.
So before you switch, try an earlier macro hatch, see if that clears up the larvae problems. Or... (and you should've seen this coming) post a replay.
On November 29 2012 12:43 Falcon-sw wrote: Fuck it I'm switching to Protoss. I haven't beat a Protoss in weeks. Miss an inject, miss a timing and I get raped every single time.
Just gotta work on some forcefield mico (hold F, spam click) and I'll be in Diamond in no time.
Zerg mechanics are just too unforgiving.
Replays? Toss is just as unforgiving at a high level. Forgetting a chrono or 2 on your forges/robo will completely ruin any decent timing, and forcefields are a lot harder than they look.
Zerg mechanics are surprisingly forgiving. It's very easy to drop a macro hatch when you're behind and you're able to just use it as a place to dump your extra queen energy. Not to mention if you miss too many injects you can still transfuse.
The only really strict time in a zvp is the first 8-9 minutes. But all races are more or less required to play perfectly in the first 9 minutes to reach a decent level nowadays either way.
Does anyone have any pro level replays of holding 2raxes from recent competitions? I couldn't find any by seaching tl/theinternet, and the only couple I could remember of were Life v Keen in the TSL. Much appreciated!
On November 28 2012 04:35 6xFPCs wrote: Follow this build: Liquipedia 3 Hatch before gas ZvP Your goal will be to get 60+ supply on pure drones + 3 queens by 8 minutes.
Ok reading it.
Thanks again.Also a kind french master Z offered his help.
On November 28 2012 09:05 FeyverN wrote: I'm having trouble defending a 2rax. It doesnt even have to be an 11/11, but an 11/12, 12/12 or even 12/13 seems to screw me over. Specifically, I'm talking about Cloud Kingdom. He can wall off my natural with three bunkers and I can't do anything about it. Anyone have any ideas how I can break a bunker contain? Banelings might work, I've never tried that.
Your goal should be to stop the bunkers from going down in the first place, rather than worrying about what to do when they're up. As soon as you know its a 2 rax and he's building a bunker, pull 2 drones to deal with their 1 scv, then for every other scv that comes... Pull another drone. Pull like 4 more drones for the first marine, then pull another bunch when the 2nd and 3rd marines arrive. Since it sounds like he is going straight triple bunker, his marines will be delayed meaning it should be easier to defend. One thing that I do that will help vs shit like this is to have your drone down at the nat around the timing a bunker would start, meaning you can hit the scv and block additional bunkers from going up if more scvs turn up.
Throw up a spine as soon as your Hatch finishes too. Defending 2 Rax comes a lot down to micro but knowing when to pull drones and the timings that marines can turn up etc. can help massively, allowing you to mine as much as you possibly can without pulling drones to early or overcommitting.
On November 28 2012 04:35 6xFPCs wrote: Follow this build: Liquipedia 3 Hatch before gas ZvP Your goal will be to get 60+ supply on pure drones + 3 queens by 8 minutes.
Ok reading it.
Thanks again.Also a kind french master Z offered his help.
Those damn P i'll get my revenge(S) :p
Find a replay of a high level player doing 3 Hatch opener in ZvP and just watch/write everything down including what he sees with his overlords etc so you know what to scout for.
Infact, I have a good replay of SortOf vs Parting where he has great macro.
On November 28 2012 09:05 FeyverN wrote: I'm having trouble defending a 2rax. It doesnt even have to be an 11/11, but an 11/12, 12/12 or even 12/13 seems to screw me over. Specifically, I'm talking about Cloud Kingdom. He can wall off my natural with three bunkers and I can't do anything about it. Anyone have any ideas how I can break a bunker contain? Banelings might work, I've never tried that.
Your goal should be to stop the bunkers from going down in the first place, rather than worrying about what to do when they're up. As soon as you know its a 2 rax and he's building a bunker, pull 2 drones to deal with their 1 scv, then for every other scv that comes... Pull another drone. Pull like 4 more drones for the first marine, then pull another bunch when the 2nd and 3rd marines arrive. Since it sounds like he is going straight triple bunker, his marines will be delayed meaning it should be easier to defend. One thing that I do that will help vs shit like this is to have your drone down at the nat around the timing a bunker would start, meaning you can hit the scv and block additional bunkers from going up if more scvs turn up.
Throw up a spine as soon as your Hatch finishes too. Defending 2 Rax comes a lot down to micro but knowing when to pull drones and the timings that marines can turn up etc. can help massively, allowing you to mine as much as you possibly can without pulling drones to early or overcommitting.
i was pessimistic when I first saw this video but it was actually very helpful. I like how you focused on times, exactly # of drones to pull, showed slightly imperfect scenarios and clear decision making like the counter attack. It even showed different openers you can go with like 10 scout or no drone scout. +1 you earned a like, I will be hoping for more!
On November 28 2012 09:05 FeyverN wrote: I'm having trouble defending a 2rax. It doesnt even have to be an 11/11, but an 11/12, 12/12 or even 12/13 seems to screw me over. Specifically, I'm talking about Cloud Kingdom. He can wall off my natural with three bunkers and I can't do anything about it. Anyone have any ideas how I can break a bunker contain? Banelings might work, I've never tried that.
Your goal should be to stop the bunkers from going down in the first place, rather than worrying about what to do when they're up. As soon as you know its a 2 rax and he's building a bunker, pull 2 drones to deal with their 1 scv, then for every other scv that comes... Pull another drone. Pull like 4 more drones for the first marine, then pull another bunch when the 2nd and 3rd marines arrive. Since it sounds like he is going straight triple bunker, his marines will be delayed meaning it should be easier to defend. One thing that I do that will help vs shit like this is to have your drone down at the nat around the timing a bunker would start, meaning you can hit the scv and block additional bunkers from going up if more scvs turn up.
Throw up a spine as soon as your Hatch finishes too. Defending 2 Rax comes a lot down to micro but knowing when to pull drones and the timings that marines can turn up etc. can help massively, allowing you to mine as much as you possibly can without pulling drones to early or overcommitting.
Nice video =) The only thing I disagree with is going pool before hatch vs 2rax, if you scout it. I don't think this helps much as he can potentially contain you to 1 base and draw even after this allin; also you want the creep down at your natural ASAP so you can throw down a spine. The most I would do in this situation is go 15h/14p instead of 15h/16p, but even this is unnecessary because of drone micro. I've tried going pool-1st against 2rax and maybe I just don't know how to play it, but it's given me no advantage.
Also, as you showed, it's better to overcommit with your drones vs something like this than undercommit... much better =P
EPT
