EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 430
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Tribuno
Italy261 Posts
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stormchaser
Canada1009 Posts
On November 25 2012 07:20 Tribuno wrote: i see many progamers in ZvZ using 9 pool with 6-8-10 lings into expansion.. what build order should i use? i would like to know the timing of the first overlord/ gas/ queen/ expansion.. at least some general guidelines. I would recommend 15 pool 15 hatch 15 gas ovie get queens when the pool finishes But honestly there are so many ways to play zvz and this is only one way to play that is macro-oriented style. | ||
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usNEUX
United States76 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:47 zasg wrote: I used to really struggle with this. In the end I followed life's playstyle that he used in the previous GSL season. I drone to 36 then I make around 30 lings, I use them to pressure the Terran's natural and take my third and drone heavy behind it. This gives me nice map presence and totally negates any pressure any Terran is planning on putting on. It also lets you get good vision of what he is doing, ie all in etc. To be honest I would make 4/5 Terrans lift their CC when I hit, I can go through my replays and upload some for you if you want. If you do a bulk of damage then you can either throw down a roach warren and go for the kill or just macro up (important to throw some spores down when 3rd is up because their only real way to get back in once you have done significant damage is through a cloaked banshee). This is at mid masters level. When are you taking your first gas? I feel like in order to get it out as the first hellions arrive you'd have to be taking it around 20 supply at least (hellions are around 5:30-6 right?) so are you able to get your 3/4 queens immediately as your first 2 pop without having idle larvae? | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On November 25 2012 10:13 usNEUX wrote: When are you taking your first gas? I feel like in order to get it out as the first hellions arrive you'd have to be taking it around 20 supply at least (hellions are around 5:30-6 right?) so are you able to get your 3/4 queens immediately as your first 2 pop without having idle larvae? In the following two games I take gas early like 17ish then pull 2 drones out at 100 gas. Going with three queens as this allows me to still use larvae. http://drop.sc/278421 - In this game my lings do wicked damage and if I remember rightly I follow up with roaches for the kill cause I was feeling lazy. http://drop.sc/278420 - In this game he walls early outside his expo and I do zero damage but I use the map presence to drone like a beast, this game then turned into a crazy random game where I totally misread what he was doing...managed to still win, was a fun game. I am still refining this build so at times I get it wrong or I float too many minerals, now a days I tend to build a third and macro hatch as I move out with lings and droning. | ||
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Azoryen
Portugal242 Posts
On November 25 2012 05:30 zasg wrote: The main thing this build requires is knowing when to look at the battle and when to shift back to the base to set stuff up. You need to be checking the lings sending a command switching to base doing injects making a lair etc and then switching back again. APM is a relative thing, I generally sit around 110apm so I am not a super fast player and I manage to do this build with no problems whatsoever. I have found this build much easier to handle then the passive gasless build, the main reason is with this build you dictate what to build and when, whereas the gasless build you are trying to eek out as many drones as possible. To be honest I got really frustrated with dieing to allins because I didn't scout it properly or they denied my vision. This way I get to dictate how the game plays out. Thanks, that's very much the line of thought I'm following, I'm definitely going to try that style. BTW, do you play same agressive/dictating style in other matchups as well? If so, what builds you use? | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On November 25 2012 19:02 Azoryen wrote: Thanks, that's very much the line of thought I'm following, I'm definitely going to try that style. BTW, do you play same agressive/dictating style in other matchups as well? If so, what builds you use? Well I cannot answer this question for all matchups, to put it in perspective, for this season I have a 82% win rate in ZvT, 74% win rate in ZvP and ... 32% win rate in ZvZ  ZvP I play standard 3 base, go 1 gas at 5 min to get fast speed for map control, killing gateway attacks, and using roach/ling to kill robo all ins. I prefer muta play in the mid game after that however as I love being able to force a protoss around the map. I dislike infestor play (outside of under brood lords of course). ZvZ I won't comment for the obvious reason that I am playing clueless atm in it. | ||
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Tribuno
Italy261 Posts
On November 25 2012 07:54 stormchaser wrote: I would recommend 15 pool 15 hatch 15 gas ovie get queens when the pool finishes But honestly there are so many ways to play zvz and this is only one way to play that is macro-oriented style. ok i know this build and i use it every game (but i use 18 gas).. i was asking for something different! 9pool.. that can deal some damage if the opponent goes hatch first. | ||
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Siggeh
Norway71 Posts
On November 25 2012 07:54 stormchaser wrote: Show nested quote + I would recommend 15 pool 15 hatch 15 gas ovie get queens when the pool finishes But honestly there are so many ways to play zvz and this is only one way to play that is macro-oriented style. ok i know this build and i use it every game (but i use 18 gas).. i was asking for something different! 9pool.. that can deal some damage if the opponent goes hatch first. I can give u a 9 pool build that is pretty good (I use it frequently in mid / top master with great success) - Drone up to 9 - Place spawning pool on 9 supply - Make 3 eggs immidetely, and make the 4th --> this will give u a total of 8 lings. - Then u start droning again, get a queen, get gas and ovie, and u will now have to micro ur lings while u drone up. U will often be able to force a hatch cancel and u will from there often be in a lead. - Get ur natural when u feel safe, but u have to consider, the other player tends to go a ling / bane allin after getting his natural denied by a 9 pool. When going 9 pool u don't want to suicide ur lings, u will have him in somewhat a contain which makes him show his cards if he decides to do something cheesy. - If u see him not trying to take his hatch second time, u can be for certain that he will cheese u with bane / ling or roach. (u got ovie over his natural so it should be easy for u to scout. GL : P | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On November 25 2012 07:20 Tribuno wrote: i see many progamers in ZvZ using 9 pool with 6-8-10 lings into expansion.. what build order should i use? i would like to know the timing of the first overlord/ gas/ queen/ expansion.. at least some general guidelines. 9 pool, 11 overlord (or 10 overlord then extractor trick) ling to 16 ( 10 lings) 16 hatch 17 overlord ~18 queen ( depending on how many lings you lose) take gas around 20 or so varying on your opponents gas timing. | ||
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fenner
United Kingdom163 Posts
On November 26 2012 05:13 Moosegills wrote: 9 pool, 11 overlord (or 10 overlord then extractor trick) ling to 16 ( 10 lings) 16 hatch 17 overlord ~18 queen ( depending on how many lings you lose) take gas around 20 or so varying on your opponents gas timing. This is good but getting the Queen as soon as you can afford it is superior imo. Which is after the first 6 lings if you 9pool 1 ET then ovie, or after the first 8 if you 9pool ovie then ET. Then just pick up the Hatch on 18, Ovie on 18 then gas on 18 - This is what Life does and allows you to follow up with a mass speedling timing too where you pump lings around 30-40 supply. | ||
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On November 26 2012 05:40 fenner wrote: This is good but getting the Queen as soon as you can afford it is superior imo. Which is after the first 6 lings if you 9pool 1 ET then ovie, or after the first 8 if you 9pool ovie then ET. Then just pick up the Hatch on 18, Ovie on 18 then gas on 18 - This is what Life does and allows you to follow up with a mass speedling timing too where you pump lings around 30-40 supply. I believe the build you are refering to that Life does is actually his 11 pool build. And the build I listed is what AcerScarlett uses as her 9 pool build http://www.twitch.tv/scarlettm/b/342181561 18:40 for Scarlett 9 pool http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70585 for Life 11 pool | ||
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Begtse
France135 Posts
Protoss being one of them :p My army just melts as soon as i encounter a P that knows what he's doing.Good forcefields are overkill for roach/ling army early game.Games are always the same. P fast expand, can't pressure him at all without going all in. Around 11 mns he makes his move, my army melts in a split second, he then proceeds to my third, A-move to the hatchery, then i leave.Always, they have better upgrades, better probe count, i can scout it won't change anything. As long as he has good FF lings and roaches won't even kill 10% of his army. I'm behind from start to finish, can't pressure him while he's at ease controlling the game without breaking a sweat. Keep in mind that i'm a casual player but still my opponent is not a harcore 24/7 korean maniac too, I watch replays, trying to see what i did wrong but even with good injects, decent macro for my level any P with decent FF utterly destroys me.Always around the same time mark (10/12 mns IG time).He just has to let zealots in front and FF all around his immortals/stalkers/sentries and that's it. GG. Seems the trend is to bait FF, doesn't seem like a solid strategy to rely on to be honest. APM is the same more or less.Same for macro.My minerals/gas are low, i'm not supply blocked or anything.It's just pure rape. Versus Z and T i know what i did wrong when i loose, vs protoss and their damn 10/12 mns push i can now just GG as soon as i see him doing good FF.It's very annoying. I watched quite a few tournaments(IEM, DH, WCS) it seems Z pros are facing the same problem with obviously better macro/micro/APM. Or maybe i'm alone, maybe i'm not. | ||
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fenner
United Kingdom163 Posts
On November 26 2012 06:20 Moosegills wrote: I believe the build you are refering to that Life does is actually his 11 pool build. And the build I listed is what AcerScarlett uses as her 9 pool build http://www.twitch.tv/scarlettm/b/342181561 18:40 for Scarlett 9 pool http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70585 for Life 11 pool Nah not that... I have a replay of Life doing the 9pool i described. The 11pool is pretty interesting though gonna have to check that out. | ||
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mogoh
Germany109 Posts
My Question: What is the most common ZvZ macro Build? All Pros in ZvZ tend to do all the same till a certaint point. So, what is this "Standard" macro build? | ||
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fenner
United Kingdom163 Posts
On November 26 2012 08:03 mogoh wrote: My Thread got closed, with the advice to ask here. So please help me. My Question: What is the most common ZvZ macro Build? All Pros in ZvZ tend to do all the same till a certaint point. So, what is this "Standard" macro build? pool or hatch first expand with a baneling nest around 4:45-5min, depending on your opponents gas timing then 6 min lair with early 4 gas into fast infestor or fast mutalisk.. taking a 3rd after youre fully saturated on 2 base | ||
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AndySCWilson
43 Posts
I've always drone scouted on 9 and then adapted my opening to theirs. Usually opening 15 hatch. However recently I've been opening 15 pool 16 hatch. My question is: If I open 15 pool 16 hatch, and my opponent 10pools. Should I cancel my natural? I've always thought that in theory you could hold the attack and still have your natural up. But in practice that hasn't been the case (at least for me). Even with a 15 pool my lings aren't out in time, and I've pulled drones with lings and then lost them all and then end up being way behind. Should I just cancel my natural. Wait a bit for an equal amount of lings, and then put my hatch up when he lays his down? I figure even if I cancel the hatch, and put it up slightly later than his. I should have a small drone lead... Right? Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Opening 15 pool is very foreign for me. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:28 AndySCWilson wrote: Mid-Masters Zerg here. I've always drone scouted on 9 and then adapted my opening to theirs. Usually opening 15 hatch. However recently I've been opening 15 pool 16 hatch. My question is: If I open 15 pool 16 hatch, and my opponent 10pools. Should I cancel my natural? I've always thought that in theory you could hold the attack and still have your natural up. But in practice that hasn't been the case (at least for me). Even with a 15 pool my lings aren't out in time, and I've pulled drones with lings and then lost them all and then end up being way behind. Should I just cancel my natural. Wait a bit for an equal amount of lings, and then put my hatch up when he lays his down? I figure even if I cancel the hatch, and put it up slightly later than his. I should have a small drone lead... Right? Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Opening 15 pool is very foreign for me. 15 pool is pretty late to defend a 9pool of your opponent. And with your 9 drone scout your 15pool will be even slightly later. I personally do 14p15h. You should find a buddy and practice this a lot. | ||
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fenner
United Kingdom163 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:28 AndySCWilson wrote: Mid-Masters Zerg here. I've always drone scouted on 9 and then adapted my opening to theirs. Usually opening 15 hatch. However recently I've been opening 15 pool 16 hatch. My question is: If I open 15 pool 16 hatch, and my opponent 10pools. Should I cancel my natural? I've always thought that in theory you could hold the attack and still have your natural up. But in practice that hasn't been the case (at least for me). Even with a 15 pool my lings aren't out in time, and I've pulled drones with lings and then lost them all and then end up being way behind. Should I just cancel my natural. Wait a bit for an equal amount of lings, and then put my hatch up when he lays his down? I figure even if I cancel the hatch, and put it up slightly later than his. I should have a small drone lead... Right? Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Opening 15 pool is very foreign for me. You can defend with lings and drones, I recommend not drone scouting... It's kinda worthless in ZvZ and delays your pool by a bit. If its a 9pool with 1 extra trick you should be able to defend with lings about 6-8 drones without taking any losses and if its a 10pool with double extractor trick you should be able to defend with even less. You need to micro well though, keep engaging/fake engaging to make him come off your nat hatch then when you have enough lings + drones to engage micro your low drones back so you don't take any drone losses | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
On November 26 2012 06:29 Begtse wrote: Hi fellow Zs, quite casual player here. About to quit for good for various reasons. Protoss being one of them :p My army just melts as soon as i encounter a P that knows what he's doing.Good forcefields are overkill for roach/ling army early game.Games are always the same. P fast expand, can't pressure him at all without going all in. Around 11 mns he makes his move, my army melts in a split second, he then proceeds to my third, A-move to the hatchery, then i leave.Always, they have better upgrades, better probe count, i can scout it won't change anything. As long as he has good FF lings and roaches won't even kill 10% of his army. I'm behind from start to finish, can't pressure him while he's at ease controlling the game without breaking a sweat. Keep in mind that i'm a casual player but still my opponent is not a harcore 24/7 korean maniac too, I watch replays, trying to see what i did wrong but even with good injects, decent macro for my level any P with decent FF utterly destroys me.Always around the same time mark (10/12 mns IG time).He just has to let zealots in front and FF all around his immortals/stalkers/sentries and that's it. GG. Seems the trend is to bait FF, doesn't seem like a solid strategy to rely on to be honest. APM is the same more or less.Same for macro.My minerals/gas are low, i'm not supply blocked or anything.It's just pure rape. Versus Z and T i know what i did wrong when i loose, vs protoss and their damn 10/12 mns push i can now just GG as soon as i see him doing good FF.It's very annoying. I watched quite a few tournaments(IEM, DH, WCS) it seems Z pros are facing the same problem with obviously better macro/micro/APM. Or maybe i'm alone, maybe i'm not. They're going to tell you to provide a replay. I'm just going to say I feel your pain. | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On November 26 2012 06:29 Begtse wrote: Hi fellow Zs, quite casual player here. About to quit for good for various reasons. Protoss being one of them :p My army just melts as soon as i encounter a P that knows what he's doing.Good forcefields are overkill for roach/ling army early game.Games are always the same. P fast expand, can't pressure him at all without going all in. Around 11 mns he makes his move, my army melts in a split second, he then proceeds to my third, A-move to the hatchery, then i leave.Always, they have better upgrades, better probe count, i can scout it won't change anything. As long as he has good FF lings and roaches won't even kill 10% of his army. I'm behind from start to finish, can't pressure him while he's at ease controlling the game without breaking a sweat. Keep in mind that i'm a casual player but still my opponent is not a harcore 24/7 korean maniac too, I watch replays, trying to see what i did wrong but even with good injects, decent macro for my level any P with decent FF utterly destroys me.Always around the same time mark (10/12 mns IG time).He just has to let zealots in front and FF all around his immortals/stalkers/sentries and that's it. GG. Seems the trend is to bait FF, doesn't seem like a solid strategy to rely on to be honest. APM is the same more or less.Same for macro.My minerals/gas are low, i'm not supply blocked or anything.It's just pure rape. Versus Z and T i know what i did wrong when i loose, vs protoss and their damn 10/12 mns push i can now just GG as soon as i see him doing good FF.It's very annoying. I watched quite a few tournaments(IEM, DH, WCS) it seems Z pros are facing the same problem with obviously better macro/micro/APM. Or maybe i'm alone, maybe i'm not. If they have better probe count you're doing something wrong. Practice your macro until you can get 65-70 supply in drones and queens by 8:00, and then just build lots of units. You can be maxed out at the 11 minute mark. As far as tactics go, a noob friendy fail-safe way to beat it is to do as Suppy does: builds tons of spine crawlers to delay until you get infestors. I prefer to be out on the map and bait force fields/counter-attack though. | ||
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