|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On November 25 2012 07:20 Tribuno wrote:
i see many progamers in ZvZ using 9 pool with 6-8-10 lings into expansion.. what build order should i use? i would like to know the timing of the first overlord/ gas/ queen/ expansion.. at least some general guidelines.
It's a little different but I like Hyun's (at least he's the one I saw do it) 10 pool, build is:
10 pool
10 overlord
when pool finished you should have exactly 300 minerals for 6 lings and a queen, then make 2 more pairs of lings, expand at 17 then drone.
Force a cancel and delay his hatch, don't overcommit with your lings but do what damage you can, try and get your gas as soon as you see he has his and drone up, as long as you don't die during the window where he has speed and you don't you should be in good shape.
|
On November 26 2012 12:57 VoirDire wrote:
If they have better probe count you're doing something wrong. Practice your macro until you can get 65-70 supply in drones and queens by 8:00, and then just build lots of units. You can be maxed out at the 11 minute mark.
As far as tactics go, a noob friendy fail-safe way to beat it is to do as Suppy does: builds tons of spine crawlers to delay until you get infestors. I prefer to be out on the map and bait force fields/counter-attack though.
Hi thanks for the reply.On my last game i was at 45 drones versus 54 or so probes when he attacks.
And 65/70 drones at the 8 mn mark?? Sure i see pros doing that (and still loose btw).I'm not a pro, neither is my opponent.
I'm casual i will never have spot on mechanics.League wise i was silver/plat, which means i suck ofc but so do the people i had games with.
Not to sound like a smartass but build "tons" of spines? at the 10mns mark?
I would have like what? 30 drones left?
Apparently i can just bait FF and cross fingers he won't just move straight to my third and kill it.
Harsh.
My view on this is just that P really have it easy compared to Z.
You are under constant pressure from the P, need to scout, canon rush or early zealots, they have numerous ways of "semi-cheese" without much consequences.A protoss can recover even from a failed canon rush.
As Z if i try to pressure early and fail i'm as good as dead.
No wonder in most pros matches i saw Z just rush BL/infestors as fast as they can.Before that it's just survival mode and pray for our savior to HALP us untill BL are morphed. :p
Anyway i guess i'll try to bait FF next time but since in my last game the P had 11 sentries, that's a lot to bait.
|
thanks to eveyone that posed the 9 pool build that i have requested.. i will work on this trying a 9 pool sometimes on ladder!
|
On November 26 2012 16:19 Begtse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 12:57 VoirDire wrote:
If they have better probe count you're doing something wrong. Practice your macro until you can get 65-70 supply in drones and queens by 8:00, and then just build lots of units. You can be maxed out at the 11 minute mark.
As far as tactics go, a noob friendy fail-safe way to beat it is to do as Suppy does: builds tons of spine crawlers to delay until you get infestors. I prefer to be out on the map and bait force fields/counter-attack though. Hi thanks for the reply.On my last game i was at 45 drones versus 54 or so probes when he attacks. And 65/70 drones at the 8 mn mark?? Sure i see pros doing that (and still loose btw).I'm not a pro, neither is my opponent. I'm casual i will never have spot on mechanics.League wise i was silver/plat, which means i suck ofc but so do the people i had games with. Not to sound like a smartass but build "tons" of spines? at the 10mns mark? I would have like what? 30 drones left? Apparently i can just bait FF and cross fingers he won't just move straight to my third and kill it. Harsh. My view on this is just that P really have it easy compared to Z. You are under constant pressure from the P, need to scout, canon rush or early zealots, they have numerous ways of "semi-cheese" without much consequences.A protoss can recover even from a failed canon rush. As Z if i try to pressure early and fail i'm as good as dead. No wonder in most pros matches i saw Z just rush BL/infestors as fast as they can.Before that it's just survival mode and pray for our savior to HALP us untill BL are morphed. :p Anyway i guess i'll try to bait FF next time but since in my last game the P had 11 sentries, that's a lot to bait.
That one guy was right, I'm gonna have to see the replay. It sounds like you're having a macro issue, though. If you just build drones semi-properly, you should hit 60 drones no problem. You probably also have bad injects, so you'll probably also want a macro hatch. But I have no idea until I see the replay.
Baiting FF is what is advised for sentry-immortal, less so for other play. If you can't beat his army due to FF or any other reason, counter. That's the advantage zerg has, mobility. If you just sit at your base waiting for him, you're throwing away your mobility.
You're doing the classic tyro thing where you theorycraft yourself into a huddled ball of fear in the corner. Sure he can do tons of stuff. You can also see it coming and smack it into the ground. Just a single overlord hovering over his base, or a ling outside his wall, can spot these things. And there are consequences, if he's chrono'ing out units to pressure or something he's sac'ing econ. And if he cannon rushes and fails, it's pretty much a loss right there, IF you have comparable macro. So again, it sounds like your macro has serious flaws. I suggest you post a replay so we can find them for you.
It's not survival mode until BL-infestor. It's just that BL-infestor is as close to auto-win as zerg can get (before some toss or terran lurker quotes me here, remember you guys have mass thor and templar+archon auto-wins as well), so most pros play for BLs. You don't have to do that. I win most of my ZvP in midgame.
Again, it sounds like you're having major macro problems. And it's possible that because you can't recognize and thus fix them, you're getting frustrated. For your sake, not mine, I recommend you post a replay.
|
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-274825.jpg)
there you go
My macro is not that bad.But it seems to me like most of people posting here are taking for granted that you need pro level mechanics to play silver league :p
Any help is appreciated anyway.
|
On November 27 2012 06:26 Begtse wrote:there you go My macro is not that bad.But it seems to me like most of people posting here are taking for granted that you need pro level mechanics to play silver league :p Any help is appreciated anyway.
Ok, as suspected its a macro issue.
You made overlords at really bad timings right around 20-30 supply markings. I know this because at 6 minutes you were sitting at 30/54 supply which should never happen.
You want to make them maybe 2-3 supply before you need them in the 10s and 20s of supply and then 6-8 supply before you're about to cap in the 30s-40s-50s. After you hit that level of economic saturation, you pretty much can make tons of overlords in waves because that's how you're going to need them (timed with the waves of larva injects popping).
Basically if you clean up your macro, you won't have trouble against this kind of build again until masters league when they can execute the "good" timing and version correctly with decent positioning on the map for forcefields.
|
On November 27 2012 06:26 Begtse wrote:there you go My macro is not that bad.But it seems to me like most of people posting here are taking for granted that you need pro level mechanics to play silver league :p Any help is appreciated anyway.
"My macro is not that bad". Your macro is terrible, perhaps the worst non-bronze I've seen yet. I occasionally off-race against my silver/gold buddies, and they would walk all over you. I'm trying to get through to you with these very sharp and yet also blunt words, because from your previous posts, it's clear you're not really aware or perhaps not paying attention to what's going on. Here, let's run through some of the points:
You have, as crooked points out, 30 supply at 6min (to be fair, it was 31 supply 15 seconds before that). Let's ignore this one, he's only about 5 supply (~15%) ahead at this point.
You do not get any drones to your third base (which is late anyway) until after the 10 min mark (it's done at what, the 5 min mark?). You also do not start getting gas from your natural geysers until after 10min as well. Instead, you decided to spread creep. This is just ignorance. Stop spreading creep and build stuff.
You stockpile nearly 20 larvae at a time, for several minutes at a time. You come close to maxing out the larvae capacity your main hatch at like 60 supply. Your macro problem isn't even injects, it's even more fundamental: actually building things. You don't build anything.
You like creep spread way too much, it's wasting your attention. You're building a roof before you build a foundation. Well, really, you're building a roof before you've purchased the land. Less injects (personal aside: wow did I just say that?), less creep, more drones.
Ok, here's where you say "but this is silver/gold/brick league, my opponent sucks too". Well, no. He outmacros you pretty badly. He's regularly at 140% of your supply after the 10 minute mark, plus he has upgrades and tech, of which none of yours are done when you lose at 13ish minutes. He beat you fair and square, no imba or OP or shenanigans about it. FF has no relevance, you just had pretty much zero of anything at 12 minutes; with no FF use, he still would've steamrolled you, thanks to the battle being 1-1 zealot-immortal against 0-0 roach ling.
Solution? Play vs very easy AI and learn to build things. Just using up larvae will put you at 60 supply by 8 minutes. Ignore creep spread. Get larvae, use larvae, kill protoss. Be the reason why he has to 2-base all-in. Insert eye of the tiger training montage here.
|
On November 27 2012 10:24 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 06:26 Begtse wrote:there you go My macro is not that bad.But it seems to me like most of people posting here are taking for granted that you need pro level mechanics to play silver league :p Any help is appreciated anyway. "My macro is not that bad". Your macro is terrible, perhaps the worst non-bronze I've seen yet. I occasionally off-race against my silver/gold buddies, and they would walk all over you. I'm trying to get through to you with these very sharp and yet also blunt words, because from your previous posts, it's clear you're not really aware or perhaps not paying attention to what's going on. Here, let's run through some of the points: You have, as crooked points out, 30 supply at 6min (to be fair, it was 31 supply 15 seconds before that). Let's ignore this one, he's only about 5 supply (~15%) ahead at this point. You do not get any drones to your third base (which is late anyway) until after the 10 min mark (it's done at what, the 5 min mark?). You also do not start getting gas from your natural geysers until after 10min as well. Instead, you decided to spread creep. This is just ignorance. Stop spreading creep and build stuff. You stockpile nearly 20 larvae at a time, for several minutes at a time. You come close to maxing out the larvae capacity your main hatch at like 60 supply. Your macro problem isn't even injects, it's even more fundamental: actually building things. You don't build anything. You like creep spread way too much, it's wasting your attention. You're building a roof before you build a foundation. Well, really, you're building a roof before you've purchased the land. Less injects (personal aside: wow did I just say that?), less creep, more drones. Ok, here's where you say "but this is silver/gold/brick league, my opponent sucks too". Well, no. He outmacros you pretty badly. He's regularly at 140% of your supply after the 10 minute mark, plus he has upgrades and tech, of which none of yours are done when you lose at 13ish minutes. He beat you fair and square, no imba or OP or shenanigans about it. FF has no relevance, you just had pretty much zero of anything at 12 minutes; with no FF use, he still would've steamrolled you, thanks to the battle being 1-1 zealot-immortal against 0-0 roach ling. Solution? Play vs very easy AI and learn to build things. Just using up larvae will put you at 60 supply by 8 minutes. Ignore creep spread. Get larvae, use larvae, kill protoss. Be the reason why he has to 2-base all-in. Insert eye of the tiger training montage here.
This is spot-on. Really, anytime you're past the 3 minute-mark and you're behind a protoss in supply, you should realize that something is wrong. I get the feeling that you watch a lot of zerg pro-games (Scarlett, Hyun, or Life maybe) because you emphasize creep-spread so much more than even your average platinum player, but I would advise you to forget creep spread and just work on always producing stuff when you have the larvae.
You also don't really need to transition super fast into hive or whatever, because you can absolutely win games at your level with lair tech. I honestly would not even begin to talk about Protoss being OP when you play so badly at a gold level.
|
In ZvZ, do i go hatch first or pool first? What are the pros and cons of doing each one? Also, I've heard about Koreans doing 10 pools and I am curious about build they execute. I mean if the Koreans are doing it, it has to be good!
|
what beats immortals as z?
|
On November 27 2012 12:42 _NamelesS wrote:
In ZvZ, do i go hatch first or pool first? What are the pros and cons of doing each one? Also, I've heard about Koreans doing 10 pools and I am curious about build they execute. I mean if the Koreans are doing it, it has to be good!
Either, just mix it up. 15 pool 16 hatch to be safe and 15 hatch if you want to be kinda greedy. The cons for 15 hatch are a little better economy, cons of it are you will die to a 10 pool drone/ling pull.
Really depends what you like or how confident you are in holding things like that or aggression or how macro oriented you are.
|
Only reason not to pool first is if you predict that your opponent won't 10 pool you, so you can go "safely" hatch first (coin flip really, but sometimes in tournaments you can predict your opponent's strategy before the game starts arguably).
I recommend 15 pool, 16 hatch, 16 gas, 15 overlord -> queen. It gets a pretty quick speed without delaying the queen too much (I'm not a fan of 15p-16h-drone x2-gas-queen-overlord-ext trick, I find I bank way too many minerals than I can spend).
Korean 10 pool is just a regular 10 pool no? 10 pool, double extractor trick to drone to 12 (I think...not sure, sorry) and then grab an overlord, it should pop right when you have 3 larvae and the pool finishes.
I tried using sc2planner but couldn't get the extractor tricks to work, oh well.
Basically 15 pool > 10 pool > 15 hatch >= 15 pool (fenner did a video that showed that 15 pool is basically the same, but I'm under the firm belief that hatch first is significantly better; in ZvP if I pull off a hatch first I'm about 5-10 supply ahead of usual at 8:00)
A 10 pool enables you to outright win if you pull 8 drones with the first 6-8 lings (and 1 spine at each base) if he goes hatch first. If he goes pool first then you're pretty behind, but if he messes up micro you can take a lead fairly easily (or if he drones while his pool builds and has no larvae for lings when it finishes). Kind of gimmicky though, don't recommend it unless you're in a tournament game or something.
15 pool is safe, economic, and IMO the best ZvZ opener. No reason not to do it on ladder.
15 hatch is great economically, but is a build order loss to a 10 pool.
Only exception to the above is that on Tal'Darim Altar you have to open 14/14 or you lose, as there's no ramp to block between your main and your natural.
|
I am in platinum.
Can someone tell me what build to use to beat Protoss at this level most of the time?
Thanks in advance.
EDIT: Assuming I can practice it enough that I can get close to perfect at it.
|
On November 27 2012 12:46 xmungam wrote:
what beats immortals as z?
flank with speedlings. hydras with range. consult the liquipedia page for immortals.
On November 27 2012 14:40 Falcon-sw wrote:
I am in platinum.
Can someone tell me what build to use to beat Protoss at this level most of the time?
Thanks in advance.
EDIT: Assuming I can practice it enough that I can get close to perfect at it.
Roach max should work. 3hatch, drone up, take 3-4 gas, get +1 missile and lair for roach speed. Pump roaches, prevent third, add spire in case you see colossi (then build corruptors).
|
On November 27 2012 10:24 6xFPCs wrote:
harsh words reduced to avoid a wall of text quoted
Well my problem starts at the 6 mns mark up to the 10/11 mns.I guess i'll have to check strict build orders.
I need more discipline and practice for that time window.
Anyone has a link for this build order?For protoss of course.
when to make the third, take 2nd and 3rd gas.From what i saw my third should be up around the 4.30, 5 mns.
Thanks for help.
|
On November 25 2012 07:20 Tribuno wrote:
i see many progamers in ZvZ using 9 pool with 6-8-10 lings into expansion.. what build order should i use? i would like to know the timing of the first overlord/ gas/ queen/ expansion.. at least some general guidelines.
I saw violet do something similar on stream (as stated above 'Korean 10 pool') I use it a lot.
10 pool
Drone to 12 (double extractor trick)
12 overlord
13-15 lings
15 Queen
18 Hatch
|
Woohoo I didn't screw it up! I guess sc2planner was working and you can afford the quick queen 
Seems not as bad as I had previously thought. Still somewhat of a build order loss against 15 pool, esp. 14/14, as they have map control and a drone lead.
|
Anyone have any special tricks to adding queens to a control group quickly during the late game? The fastest way I have found is to
- use base camera shortcut (which I use anyway for injects)
- click queen
- shift+control group
- repeat
I know I definitely need to practice to get my speed up, but it just seems so taxing on my APM late game where you need APM the most, and I often stutter doing it to make sure I'm not control grouping my injecting queen. Should I try to always have my queen on top of the hatchery to keep them out of the way?
Also does anyone know how Fitzy does it / a good VOD of him with some good queen action?
|
Roach max should work. 3hatch, drone up, take 3-4 gas, get +1 missile and lair for roach speed. Pump roaches, prevent third, add spire in case you see colossi (then build corruptors).
Turns out in Platinum every Protoss knows they need to attack before 11 minutes. They're doing sentry/immortal pushes at 9-10, or dropping zealots in my mineral lines. Even doing the roach max perfectly isn't enough to beat most Protoss.
|
On November 28 2012 02:44 Falcon-sw wrote:Show nested quote +
Roach max should work. 3hatch, drone up, take 3-4 gas, get +1 missile and lair for roach speed. Pump roaches, prevent third, add spire in case you see colossi (then build corruptors).
Turns out in Platinum every Protoss knows they need to attack before 11 minutes. They're doing sentry/immortal pushes at 9-10, or dropping zealots in my mineral lines. Even doing the roach max perfectly isn't enough to beat most Protoss.
What I began doing in Plat vs P is going just lings until infestors are out! Except maybe if I see forge chrono for fast +1 (4 gate+1), then in this case roaches might be good too for zealots.
I was always trying to get roaches and lings to stop the push but I found out that this delay my tech too much so I just swarm his push with just lings. Flanking too of course. Bait FF as you can. too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
