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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On December 03 2012 02:13 Kisezik wrote:
hi i was just wondering how to spread creep in ZvP as much as you would in a ZvT game, because in the current metagame most zergs stay on 3 queens and try hit 80 supply in 8 minutes vs a FFEing protoss. When would you add extra queens to try spread this creep? would you need to invest in an early 4th queen?
After you take your 4:10ish third, make a fourth queen after your third one finished.
Simple as that, it's not a big investment either. You can't spread it as much as you do in ZvT, that's just fundamentals.
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Quick, but stupid question: 6 queen has fallen out of popularity. What's the standard macro ZvT opener then? I mean the 3 base roach builds (8-10 roaches at like 9:00) are ok, but I want something similar to 6 queen. I mean I still go 6 queen, but wonder what the Koreans do nowadays. No ZvT games in tourneys these days 
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On December 03 2012 11:51 Mavvie wrote:Quick, but stupid question: 6 queen has fallen out of popularity. What's the standard macro ZvT opener then? I mean the 3 base roach builds (8-10 roaches at like 9:00) are ok, but I want something similar to 6 queen. I mean I still go 6 queen, but wonder what the Koreans do nowadays. No ZvT games in tourneys these days
approximate build order many use for 4 queen opener
Standard 4 queen start
36 double gas
44 third base (speed soon after)
52 double evo
Start upgrades first then add bane nest and lair with next gas (interchangable)
For me the reason ive been using this as opposed to 6 queen is many terran players I play straight attempt to runby with their first 4 hellions, and it can be really hard to stop if your speed is miles away as it is with 6 queen.
Check out Scarlett's VOD for use of this type of opener http://www.twitch.tv/scarlettm/b/342181561
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Hi everyone. I have a few questions in regards to ZVT when going 6 queen gasless build.
I'm unsure of the timings for gases, evo, lair, and 3rd hatch.
Gases: I've heard to take 1st and 2nd at ~50 but I've also heard to grab the 3rd as well. When do I grab my 4, 5, and 6th gases?
Evo: I have no idea when to get it. I just drop double evo when I take my gases.
Lair: Usually after I get ling speed.
3rd hatch: I've heard to wait after I get all 6 queens out but I've also heard to get the hatch after the 4th queen and while the 5th and 6th queen are being made.
Also, I just want to make sure I understand my ZVT well enough. I'm in Gold and I'm being placed against Platinum and Diamonds now but I just get completely crushed 
So I ovie sac at around 5:30-6:00 to see what tech Terran is going. If I see:
Banshee: Make Lair and some Spores before ling speed and 3rd hatch? (So I can get fast Overseer)
Bio pressure: Drop a Baneling nest asap
Hellions: Drop Roach Warren
So for Banelings, do you guys use Banelings a lot? I know, dumb question but I've recently moved away from Banelings just because they can be kited even after their speed upgrade. I'm moving towards Infestors just because of how awesome Fungal is. I've been re-thinking Banelings and was wondering if I should use them as a bridge to get Infestors? By bridge, I mean like how in ZVZ, after a 15 hatch/15 pool, you get Banes just in case against 14 gas/14 pool. When teching to Infestors, I feel very vulnerable to Marine/Medivac pushes.
BTW, I'm sorry if this information is completely off. I haven't really worked on timings until now so I would greatly appreciate any help 
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in zvz does 10 pool counter every build?
6-10 pool: self explanatory
11-13 pool: not sure about these
14-16 pool: force a cancel on the natural while taking your own, thus being ahead
15 hatch: self explanatory
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On December 03 2012 14:26 courtpanda wrote:
in zvz does 10 pool counter every build?
6-10 pool: self explanatory
11-13 pool: not sure about these
14-16 pool: force a cancel on the natural while taking your own, thus being ahead
15 hatch: self explanatory
No 14-15 pool are a counter to 10 pool.
Also you may not necessarily force a cancel at the natural and you have to remember you are still behind in the worker count, not game ending unless you mass mass ling, but you will be a little bit behind unless the 14/15 pool player makes a mistake.
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On December 03 2012 11:51 Mavvie wrote:Quick, but stupid question: 6 queen has fallen out of popularity. What's the standard macro ZvT opener then? I mean the 3 base roach builds (8-10 roaches at like 9:00) are ok, but I want something similar to 6 queen. I mean I still go 6 queen, but wonder what the Koreans do nowadays. No ZvT games in tourneys these days
15 Hatch 15 Pool
2 QUEEN
@ 4 min : 10 : 1 Gas
@ 24 supply Hatchery
@ 100 Gaz Meta Boost remove 2 worker off Gaz
@ 60 supply 2 more gaz + 20 lings on the field
@ 8 min lair + 2 gaz on 3rd + macro hatch
// 4 queen total, 3 on hatcherys 1 spreading the creep
@ 8:40 min bnest + 2 evo
@ 9:20 4th Hatchery
@ lair completition spire // +1m +1c upgrades.
@ 11 min bspeed + 2 gaz 4th
@ 11:30 infes pit
@ 11:50 +1 attack mutas
Like if you spot hes going rax heavy you make bnest earlier and things like that, but that's my main build and I copied it off Hyunn, I'm Mid/High Master.
If your struggling against 1rax expo into Helion/banshee.
15 Hatchery
15 Pool
17 Gas
2-4 Lings ( kill scv)
1 Queen
22 Roach Warren
Overlord
Queen(nat)
2-4 drones
2 overlord
Make roach and lings
1 extra queen for banshee/helion.
Drone up and expo if hes not dead.
( 90% winrate with this bo)
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On December 03 2012 23:11 Bellazuk wrote:
15 Hatch 15 Pool
2 QUEEN
@ 4 min : 10 : 1 Gas
@ 24 supply Hatchery
@ 100 Gaz Meta Boost remove 2 worker off Gaz
@ 60 supply 2 more gaz + 20 lings on the field
@ 8 min lair + 2 gaz on 3rd + macro hatch
// 4 queen total, 3 on hatcherys 1 spreading the creep
@ 8:40 min bnest + 2 evo
@ 9:20 4th Hatchery
@ lair completition spire // +1m +1c upgrades.
@ 11 min bspeed + 2 gaz 4th
@ 11:30 infes pit
@ 11:50 +1 attack mutas
If Hyun really does that, then who am I to judge. but doesn't a gas and third that early butcher your eco? And +1/+1 AND baneling speed AND infestation pit AND spire AND +1 flyer upgrades as lair finishes leaves you with what, enough gas for 2 mutas?
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Russian Federation81 Posts
http://drop.sc/281081
Standard long diamond ZvP. I lose quite a lot of these without realising why.
Things I can pinpoint in this current game:
- Horrible opening. He delayed my hatch longer than he should have, then his unscouted 3rd led to me having even less drones than I was supposed to have, though when he killed that scouting OV I had a hunch so I kept still building at least some drones. Overall I don't think I was behind a lot because of this, or was I? Normally I'm hitting the 70 supply by 8:00, it's just things added up this game.
-I'm thinking the first big engagement lost me the game. But why, what did I do wrong? I've had a decent concave, not many (if at all?) BLs got into the vortex, but his shit STILL wouldn't die. Was it my usage of infestor energy? More IT less fungal, the other way around? I did lose a lot of infestors but I kinda already gave up at that point, experience tells me if I don't win the first battle I don't win the game at all because he reproduces faster and with much more cost efficient units (stalkers).
-I could have waited for ground 3/3 before engaging, but was it really a decisive factor?
Help please. I feel really dumb with all the protoss moaning about how OP endgame zerg is while I just can't make it work. :/
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I might be able to run this. Looking at the other threads, my only problem is learning how to format the OP.
I basically already do this in the allthingszerg subreddit ~ http://www.reddit.com/r/allthingszerg/
Who do I contact about this?
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On December 04 2012 01:39 Atthasit wrote:http://drop.sc/281081Standard long diamond ZvP. I lose quite a lot of these without realising why. Things I can pinpoint in this current game: - Horrible opening. He delayed my hatch longer than he should have, then his unscouted 3rd led to me having even less drones than I was supposed to have, though when he killed that scouting OV I had a hunch so I kept still building at least some drones. Overall I don't think I was behind a lot because of this, or was I? Normally I'm hitting the 70 supply by 8:00, it's just things added up this game. -I'm thinking the first big engagement lost me the game. But why, what did I do wrong? I've had a decent concave, not many (if at all?) BLs got into the vortex, but his shit STILL wouldn't die. Was it my usage of infestor energy? More IT less fungal, the other way around? I did lose a lot of infestors but I kinda already gave up at that point, experience tells me if I don't win the first battle I don't win the game at all because he reproduces faster and with much more cost efficient units (stalkers). -I could have waited for ground 3/3 before engaging, but was it really a decisive factor? Help please. I feel really dumb with all the protoss moaning about how OP endgame zerg is while I just can't make it work. :/
You actually did a good job of self anylysing your game :D. Your a bit delayed hatch wasnt that much of a problem, the later macro was bad though. Low drone cout at 8 min, took you too much time to saturate your bases even after you realised he was playing greedy and just faking pressure, your 4th was super late as well.
Yeah first fight didnt go as good as it should for you. You want to spam IT before or right after the fight starts then fungal toss. Also waiting for those upgrades would help a lot!
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On December 04 2012 08:49 Glon wrote:I might be able to run this. Looking at the other threads, my only problem is learning how to format the OP. I basically already do this in the allthingszerg subreddit ~ http://www.reddit.com/r/allthingszerg/Who do I contact about this?
Probably Making a post asking for it to be transferred to you in website feedback would be a good start.
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On December 04 2012 01:39 Atthasit wrote:http://drop.sc/281081Standard long diamond ZvP. I lose quite a lot of these without realising why. Things I can pinpoint in this current game: - Horrible opening. He delayed my hatch longer than he should have, then his unscouted 3rd led to me having even less drones than I was supposed to have, though when he killed that scouting OV I had a hunch so I kept still building at least some drones. Overall I don't think I was behind a lot because of this, or was I? Normally I'm hitting the 70 supply by 8:00, it's just things added up this game. -I'm thinking the first big engagement lost me the game. But why, what did I do wrong? I've had a decent concave, not many (if at all?) BLs got into the vortex, but his shit STILL wouldn't die. Was it my usage of infestor energy? More IT less fungal, the other way around? I did lose a lot of infestors but I kinda already gave up at that point, experience tells me if I don't win the first battle I don't win the game at all because he reproduces faster and with much more cost efficient units (stalkers). -I could have waited for ground 3/3 before engaging, but was it really a decisive factor? Help please. I feel really dumb with all the protoss moaning about how OP endgame zerg is while I just can't make it work. :/
Opening is, as you said, roughly ok.
His sneaky third is bad, you went way hard into units, and didn't even take your fourth after seeing his third. That's a wrong decision, and it leads to you having super super slow tech. See how fast he got his mothership? That's because he thinks you're going three base fast BL. But you're going three base bad army. Then you take your fourth, now behind on tech and econ.
Engagement is meh, you leave your right flank (i.e. left side of screen) BLs exposed for no reason other than "oooh concave), you drop ITs late, you go after him for some reason, instead of sitting on spines and 10 gas like you should be. Also, you should have waited at least for 3-3 melee and carapace before attacking. Notice, too, that he goes super archon heavy, from the get-go. So he basically mops up the 2-2 broodlings with ease, no colossi needed, and that's why nothing of his dies. If ITs had popped while he was still busy with broodlings, though, he'd have a much worse time.
The worst mistake, in my opinion, is that you didn't reinforce. Not one tiny bit, until you were being routed. No wonder his 2-3 rounds of warpins mess you up and wipe out your BLs, you build nothing against his something. You were ahead, then he slowly grinds you up because you don't remax. If you had spammed lings from the moment your roaches died (and you want them to die when you have infestor BL), you might've pushed him back or cleaned him up, or at least he would not be able to chase your BLs and no-energy infestors, and you can rebuild over spines. If you had taken a fourth and fifth at decent times, you would've had plenty of gas to remake infestors on top of the corruptors you made, and you could've remorphed BLs immediately after, too.
Remax please. Lings are free (no gas) and build fast.
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In ZvZ when going hatch first, where should I place my pool? I have trouble defending 6-8 pools when they target my pool.
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On December 04 2012 13:58 emperok wrote:
In ZvZ when going hatch first, where should I place my pool? I have trouble defending 6-8 pools when they target my pool.
Short answer: behind mineral line, so that he has to risk trapping himself if he commits to attacking it (drones can come in from behind and sandwich the lings), and so that it is easily protected with drones (he has to pass by the mining drones to get to the pool).
Long answer involves reading belial's anti-6pool guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295586
EDIT: trouble with verb tenses.
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On December 03 2012 02:24 FeyverN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 02:13 Kisezik wrote:
hi i was just wondering how to spread creep in ZvP as much as you would in a ZvT game, because in the current metagame most zergs stay on 3 queens and try hit 80 supply in 8 minutes vs a FFEing protoss. When would you add extra queens to try spread this creep? would you need to invest in an early 4th queen? After you take your 4:10ish third, make a fourth queen after your third one finished. Simple as that, it's not a big investment either. You can't spread it as much as you do in ZvT, that's just fundamentals.
Thanks! This is really helpful. I often find myself not making larvae into drones because I made my 4th queen earlier and have no money.
I
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On December 03 2012 02:13 Kisezik wrote:
hi i was just wondering how to spread creep in ZvP as much as you would in a ZvT game, because in the current metagame most zergs stay on 3 queens and try hit 80 supply in 8 minutes vs a FFEing protoss. When would you add extra queens to try spread this creep? would you need to invest in an early 4th queen?
What I do is add my 4'th queen when my third finishes. I found this a great way to spread creep well. Otherwise I am not sure of a better way I can't seem to recall off the top of my head when pros do this.
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Hi all, I'm a low level zerg (gold) and I have have had the mindset that; (1) better to have one opener in ZvZ that I feel safe with and always play this and (2) that it does not matter too much if the opener is not optimal since mistakes will cost me and my opponent more than a slight inefficiency in my opening. I tend to go 14gas/14pool (which was common before but is not so common now with the stronger queens, I guess). I pull two workers of gas as soon as my pool is done and start my first queen and speed right away. I expo as soon as I feel safe and get a baneling nest quickly. I will often get a few early banelings and try to get some early damage done. Once my two base is fully saturated (two gas) I go for a +1/+1 speed-roach timing.
This gives me a fairly good win-rate in ZvZ. I oftentimes beat any early pool openers and also others that go pool->hatch. However, I have a problem with people that are good at defending their hatch-first openers.
So, my questions;
1. How inefficient is my opener? Is the 14gas/14pool opener not recommended at all now?
2. If I do this and have a baneling nest but does no damage to the hatch-first player, what would be a preferred continuation? I have gone into mass-zergling and overrun my opponents at times. This has given some success but if feels volatile (one baneling or a solid queen/roach block can ruin your day).
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Russian Federation81 Posts
On December 04 2012 12:03 6xFPCs wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +His sneaky third is bad, you went way hard into units, and didn't even take your fourth after seeing his third. That's a wrong decision, and it leads to you having super super slow tech.
When I saw his 3rd I had a thought of getting an immediate 4th myself, but with my poor drone saturation I felt it wasn't a good decision at the moment. Was it my poor judgment? I mean in the long run obviously I suffered from it, but what if he decided to roll out with some kind of 3 base immortal push, I wouldn't be able to afford the spinewall and my 4th would just fall.
+ Show Spoiler +Engagement is meh, you leave your right flank (i.e. left side of screen) BLs exposed for no reason other than "oooh concave), you drop ITs late, you go after him for some reason, instead of sitting on spines and 10 gas like you should be. Also, you should have waited at least for 3-3 melee and carapace before attacking. Notice, too, that he goes super archon heavy, from the get-go. So he basically mops up the 2-2 broodlings with ease, no colossi needed, and that's why nothing of his dies. If ITs had popped while he was still busy with broodlings, though, he'd have a much worse time.
You're right I was focusing more on getting a good spread rather than coming from a good angle because I am paranoid about getting half my army vortexed, I should work on this. What does sitting on 10 gas do for me though? I knew he was getting his 5th and I had no way of delaying or cancelling it, so I figured I should have attacked while I still was 1 base up. What the general cue for attacking in ZvP is though? Obviously, ideally I want him to come at me with my spine wall but it just doesn't happen. So I have to be the aggressive one. But when?
+ Show Spoiler +The worst mistake, in my opinion, is that you didn't reinforce. Not one tiny bit, until you were being routed. No wonder his 2-3 rounds of warpins mess you up and wipe out your BLs, you build nothing against his something. You were ahead, then he slowly grinds you up because you don't remax. If you had spammed lings from the moment your roaches died (and you want them to die when you have infestor BL), you might've pushed him back or cleaned him up, or at least he would not be able to chase your BLs and no-energy infestors, and you can rebuild over spines. If you had taken a fourth and fifth at decent times, you would've had plenty of gas to remake infestors on top of the corruptors you made, and you could've remorphed BLs immediately after, too.
Remax please. Lings are free (no gas) and build fast.
This is another one of my paranoias, I feel lings are so useless against protoss who has archons or colossi in his army I just can't get myself to build them. Thanks for bringing up this point, I'll try to force myself from now on.
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On December 04 2012 18:41 ShotgunMike wrote:
Hi all, I'm a low level zerg (gold) and I have have had the mindset that; (1) better to have one opener in ZvZ that I feel safe with and always play this and (2) that it does not matter too much if the opener is not optimal since mistakes will cost me and my opponent more than a slight inefficiency in my opening. I tend to go 14gas/14pool (which was common before but is not so common now with the stronger queens, I guess). I pull two workers of gas as soon as my pool is done and start my first queen and speed right away. I expo as soon as I feel safe and get a baneling nest quickly. I will often get a few early banelings and try to get some early damage done. Once my two base is fully saturated (two gas) I go for a +1/+1 speed-roach timing.
This gives me a fairly good win-rate in ZvZ. I oftentimes beat any early pool openers and also others that go pool->hatch. However, I have a problem with people that are good at defending their hatch-first openers.
So, my questions;
1. How inefficient is my opener? Is the 14gas/14pool opener not recommended at all now?
2. If I do this and have a baneling nest but does no damage to the hatch-first player, what would be a preferred continuation? I have gone into mass-zergling and overrun my opponents at times. This has given some success but if feels volatile (one baneling or a solid queen/roach block can ruin your day).
Hi, 14/14 gas/pool is still a pretty good opening especially if you are in a low-mid league. Its the best opening you can ask for vs any early pool and gives you map control vs everything else. As you noticed the biggest problem with it is dealing with hatch first opening. Your opponent will always get 2 queens in time to block the ling bane pressure and if he is smart enough he will also get an early spine after seeing your hatchery timing. I'd recommend you to skip your early pressure vs this opening, instead just make 4 lings and try to be as annoying with them as possible while making drones only yourself. If you do this correctly you should be able to snipe a drone or 2, get a good scout on what he is doing and force some lings from him, this way you end up at least even on econ while getting ready for you 1/1 roach timing.
Also if you open 14/14 you could try to mix the baneling all in sometimes, great way to improve your ling/bane micro and get some easy wins :D
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EPT
