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On December 04 2012 18:41 ShotgunMike wrote:
Hi all, I'm a low level zerg (gold) and I have have had the mindset that; (1) better to have one opener in ZvZ that I feel safe with and always play this and (2) that it does not matter too much if the opener is not optimal since mistakes will cost me and my opponent more than a slight inefficiency in my opening. I tend to go 14gas/14pool (which was common before but is not so common now with the stronger queens, I guess). I pull two workers of gas as soon as my pool is done and start my first queen and speed right away. I expo as soon as I feel safe and get a baneling nest quickly. I will often get a few early banelings and try to get some early damage done. Once my two base is fully saturated (two gas) I go for a +1/+1 speed-roach timing.
This gives me a fairly good win-rate in ZvZ. I oftentimes beat any early pool openers and also others that go pool->hatch. However, I have a problem with people that are good at defending their hatch-first openers.
So, my questions;
1. How inefficient is my opener? Is the 14gas/14pool opener not recommended at all now?
2. If I do this and have a baneling nest but does no damage to the hatch-first player, what would be a preferred continuation? I have gone into mass-zergling and overrun my opponents at times. This has given some success but if feels volatile (one baneling or a solid queen/roach block can ruin your day).
I use 14/14 on open 4 player maps. I just feel weird using 15p 16h in ZvZ. It works fine. Mainly it allows you to grab map control early due to super early ling speed.
vs hatch first, he will have superior larvae production, so you can only really accomplish aggression with banes. but if he has a spine, mineral walks his drones through his double queen ramp block, and put down his own bane nest on time... it's not going to kill him. At best, you prevent him from mining at his natural for awhile. Through diamond, you can probably get away with it, but as many pros have mentioned, early ZvZ is "solid", in that proper safe play in the early game (scouting, spine, 4 banes, queen block) cannot be killed by an all-in.
On December 04 2012 19:50 Atthasit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +His sneaky third is bad, you went way hard into units, and didn't even take your fourth after seeing his third. That's a wrong decision, and it leads to you having super super slow tech.
When I saw his 3rd I had a thought of getting an immediate 4th myself, but with my poor drone saturation I felt it wasn't a good decision at the moment. Was it my poor judgment? I mean in the long run obviously I suffered from it, but what if he decided to roll out with some kind of 3 base immortal push, I wouldn't be able to afford the spinewall and my 4th would just fall. + Show Spoiler +Engagement is meh, you leave your right flank (i.e. left side of screen) BLs exposed for no reason other than "oooh concave), you drop ITs late, you go after him for some reason, instead of sitting on spines and 10 gas like you should be. Also, you should have waited at least for 3-3 melee and carapace before attacking. Notice, too, that he goes super archon heavy, from the get-go. So he basically mops up the 2-2 broodlings with ease, no colossi needed, and that's why nothing of his dies. If ITs had popped while he was still busy with broodlings, though, he'd have a much worse time.
You're right I was focusing more on getting a good spread rather than coming from a good angle because I am paranoid about getting half my army vortexed, I should work on this. What does sitting on 10 gas do for me though? I knew he was getting his 5th and I had no way of delaying or cancelling it, so I figured I should have attacked while I still was 1 base up. What the general cue for attacking in ZvP is though? Obviously, ideally I want him to come at me with my spine wall but it just doesn't happen. So I have to be the aggressive one. But when? + Show Spoiler +The worst mistake, in my opinion, is that you didn't reinforce. Not one tiny bit, until you were being routed. No wonder his 2-3 rounds of warpins mess you up and wipe out your BLs, you build nothing against his something. You were ahead, then he slowly grinds you up because you don't remax. If you had spammed lings from the moment your roaches died (and you want them to die when you have infestor BL), you might've pushed him back or cleaned him up, or at least he would not be able to chase your BLs and no-energy infestors, and you can rebuild over spines. If you had taken a fourth and fifth at decent times, you would've had plenty of gas to remake infestors on top of the corruptors you made, and you could've remorphed BLs immediately after, too.
Remax please. Lings are free (no gas) and build fast. This is another one of my paranoias, I feel lings are so useless against protoss who has archons or colossi in his army I just can't get myself to build them. Thanks for bringing up this point, I'll try to force myself from now on.
You should have put down a fourth base AND droned. You have to catch up or you will die. He can't push at full strength, not with the investment he put down (nexus, cannons, gateway wall). You can handle it with infestor-roach-ling, no spines needed.
10 gas makes you win. Seriously. You have so much gas that every single bit of army supply will be infestor-BL-corruptor, and you can afford double spire upgrades and drop an ultra cavern just because. Really though, what it lets you do is continuously replace infestors and BLs, which is important because if you lose most of one of those types of units, the whole army drops in strength super fast.
Here's a game I played today, a little wonky and not as straightforward macro as yours, but basically I see him clear out a ling at his third, so I take my fourth ASAP and drone for at least two full injects (I think I went to three?). Because I was ahead after holding off his immortal-sentry attack, I also go straight to hive tech and spire, and add spines with the minerals leftover. I am on 8 gas at this point and anticipate smooth sailing through BL tech, and if you watch his third timing, I'm super super safe because I was quick to add my fourth and he was behind anyway. After a bit, I take my fifth, because I'm nearing max and because this is what I see hyun and DRG and even sniper do as they get to BL tech. No mothership here, though, sorry.
http://drop.sc/281636http://drop.sc/281636
p.s. I also manage a decent defense of immortal sentry in this replay, in case anyone wants to see; I think the pre-emptive drone pull was critical, as was the slightly earlier macro hatch.
(Belial, if you're around and reading this, this is a decent example of my whole "i don't like having more than 6 BLs because vortex" thing, so I am intentionally infestor-heavy. I don't go super heavy on infestors because I see a lot of colossi, so I keep a solid corruptor count instead of going past 10-12 infestors. I'm still of the opinion that my way is not stronger than the standard BL cloud, in fact it's a little weaker, but it leaves you less vulnerable to catastrophe when they do an MC blink when you're not paying attention or get cocky. And they will usually go really stalker heavy on warpins when they're on the back foot, as opposed to waiting for archons and vortex, so fungal reigns supreme.)
Dealing with vortex is, in my loud opinion, not about the actual fight where vortex can land. More clearly stated: I think splitting against it is the wrong solution; it's a weak cure and you need vortex prevention. You need to be dancing around with some corruptors and single infestors, threatening to snipe the mothership or neural it. I do funny things like send a handful of roaches on a suicide mission to get one shot off on something protoss, anything, anywhere, to make him look over there, then in that half second I send in an infestor and try to neural. If you have 8-10 gases, you can afford to keep throwing away a single infestor to flush out that vortex. Vortex is pretty much his only hope against a proper lategame zerg (i.e. infestor-BL army + strong gas econ + spine forests), so you should be doing all the covert ops and sneaky underhanded stuff you can to get it out of the way WITHOUT risking your BLs. Trying to split BLs against vortex is like trying to discharge/empty someone's gun by standing in front of them to do it--sure, it can work, but why in the world would you not sneak up from behind and pull the trigger when the gun is away from you? The BLs are the vulnerable body of your army, keep them away from the mothership as much as you can.
Plus, splitting BLs is like a mech player splitting thors or a toss splitting colossi, your army strength drops considerably because you lose the deathball-ness.
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on ipl5 i see a 2 Base 20 speed Roach push (fast lair), with droning and saturated the 3rd (build 4th), while the Push is ongoing.
Can anybody give me replay of this Build? It looks easy and strong. in the hots beta
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On December 04 2012 15:35 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 13:58 emperok wrote:
In ZvZ when going hatch first, where should I place my pool? I have trouble defending 6-8 pools when they target my pool. Short answer: behind mineral line, so that he has to risk trapping himself if he commits to attacking it (drones can come in from behind and sandwich the lings), and so that it is easily protected with drones (he has to pass by the mining drones to get to the pool). Long answer involves reading belial's anti-6pool guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295586EDIT: trouble with verb tenses.
I disagree. Losing your pool to a 6-7 pool actually ISN'T a big deal, at all. Especially if you can get a spine down and a queen out, allowing your opponent to snipe your pool isn't a big deal since you will have around 3 TIMES the amount of drones as him. Losing your pool, even if you lose your queen, will still give you a MASSIVE drone lead (assuming you hold the push) that will carry into the mid game (defending the mineral line w/ spine, rebuilding pool).
You should put your pool in a choke, either just below or just above the space between the gas geiser and the hatchery (wherever it doesn't block gas) and use it to section off 1 side from attack.
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Oh also thanks to the guys who answered my question about what the standard ZvT opener is. I wasn't really looking for a build order, was just curious 
I have mixed feelings about Life's speedling timing. It seems to be decent some games, it does nothing in the others. A wonky build for sure
So 4 queen opener is basically 6 queen but greedier is what I got from it. I guess it's okay against all ins though...speedlings are definitely better than slowlings, despite 4 queens being worse than 6.
How does 4 queen fare against hellion/banshee? Such a low queen count must leave you vulnerable to big hellion/banshee pushes at the third, no?
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On December 05 2012 07:21 Glon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 15:35 6xFPCs wrote:On December 04 2012 13:58 emperok wrote:
In ZvZ when going hatch first, where should I place my pool? I have trouble defending 6-8 pools when they target my pool. Short answer: behind mineral line, so that he has to risk trapping himself if he commits to attacking it (drones can come in from behind and sandwich the lings), and so that it is easily protected with drones (he has to pass by the mining drones to get to the pool). Long answer involves reading belial's anti-6pool guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295586EDIT: trouble with verb tenses. I disagree. Losing your pool to a 6-7 pool actually ISN'T a big deal, at all. Especially if you can get a spine down and a queen out, allowing your opponent to snipe your pool isn't a big deal since you will have around 3 TIMES the amount of drones as him. Losing your pool, even if you lose your queen, will still give you a MASSIVE drone lead (assuming you hold the push) that will carry into the mid game (defending the mineral line w/ spine, rebuilding pool). You should put your pool in a choke, either just below or just above the space between the gas geiser and the hatchery (wherever it doesn't block gas) and use it to section off 1 side from attack.
That's really interesting; I'll definitely defer to your wisdom on this. However, I feel like blocking one side doesn't do much, one side open is no different from two sides open, because he can't split his lings and still hope to get drone kills (if you're stacking defensively).
I agree that losing the pool is not a big deal, I'd rather lose the pool than lose a ton of mining time, but if he's having trouble as a result of losing his pool, would you still recommend that he just let it die? It sounds like he's facing a 6pool with constant ling reinforcement, so eventually he got run over.
Or it's possible that the real issue is that he's not drone stacking, so he loses the engagement regardless. Hard to know without a replay, or even league info. (hint hint, emperok, maybe you want to add more info?)
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Alright guys i'd appreciate if you'd analyze and maybe help me understand why i lost these 2 games , both vs p.
This one is on daybreak vs a masters player (i'm gold): http://drop.sc/281862
This one is on ohana vs a p plat player: http://drop.sc/281863
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On December 03 2012 13:43 learning88 wrote:Hi everyone. I have a few questions in regards to ZVT when going 6 queen gasless build. I'm unsure of the timings for gases, evo, lair, and 3rd hatch. Gases: I've heard to take 1st and 2nd at ~50 but I've also heard to grab the 3rd as well. When do I grab my 4, 5, and 6th gases? Evo: I have no idea when to get it. I just drop double evo when I take my gases. Lair: Usually after I get ling speed. 3rd hatch: I've heard to wait after I get all 6 queens out but I've also heard to get the hatch after the 4th queen and while the 5th and 6th queen are being made. Also, I just want to make sure I understand my ZVT well enough. I'm in Gold and I'm being placed against Platinum and Diamonds now but I just get completely crushed  So I ovie sac at around 5:30-6:00 to see what tech Terran is going. If I see: Banshee: Make Lair and some Spores before ling speed and 3rd hatch? (So I can get fast Overseer) Bio pressure: Drop a Baneling nest asap Hellions: Drop Roach Warren So for Banelings, do you guys use Banelings a lot? I know, dumb question but I've recently moved away from Banelings just because they can be kited even after their speed upgrade. I'm moving towards Infestors just because of how awesome Fungal is. I've been re-thinking Banelings and was wondering if I should use them as a bridge to get Infestors? By bridge, I mean like how in ZVZ, after a 15 hatch/15 pool, you get Banes just in case against 14 gas/14 pool. When teching to Infestors, I feel very vulnerable to Marine/Medivac pushes. BTW, I'm sorry if this information is completely off. I haven't really worked on timings until now so I would greatly appreciate any help 
When I use the 6 queen opener It goes something like this
1. Economic hatch first 15h/16 pool
2. Double queen. These queens inject and move to the front to start creep.
3. Double queen
4. 1 drone from the first inject is rallied to third and start third hatch.
5. Double queen, take 4 gases. So far pretty much only built queens overlords and drones.
6. In no particular order: metabolic boost, lair, double evo, baneling nest and macro hatch.
There are lots of variations to 6 queen. For example Some take the hatch after the 5th and 6th queen. So whatever you are comfortable with should be fine. Common things are 6 queens and a fast third. I don't usually see just 2 gasses taken with 6 queen. It's usually 3 or 4. I go spire so 4 gas seems to work better. When you take your gas you can just let the gas income "time" your speed lair 1/1 upgrades and other tech.
Overlord scout should come a bit later. At 6 min you will rarely see anything interesting and so long as Terran expanded you aren't really changing your build anyways. At 8 min you get really good info.
I actually think if you scout banshee (as in hellion/banshee obviously not the 2 port cheese)it's more reason to take the third as soon as you can so you have creep to get a spore up. You still want to power drones and you have 6 queens and spores for detection so you should be fine. It can get annoying on maps like ohana where you have to walk around the rocks but it's something you can deal with.
It's fine to get a baneling nest and to research baneling speed. Just don't blindly morph banelings. If you see an attack, make banelings if not, save the gas for infestors. That being said, there are cases where a couple banes for drop defense can be good, but infestors should take priority.
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On December 05 2012 12:04 Mavvie wrote:Oh also thanks to the guys who answered my question about what the standard ZvT opener is. I wasn't really looking for a build order, was just curious I have mixed feelings about Life's speedling timing. It seems to be decent some games, it does nothing in the others. A wonky build for sure So 4 queen opener is basically 6 queen but greedier is what I got from it. I guess it's okay against all ins though...speedlings are definitely better than slowlings, despite 4 queens being worse than 6. How does 4 queen fare against hellion/banshee? Such a low queen count must leave you vulnerable to big hellion/banshee pushes at the third, no?
Hey everyone. High master player Europe here
4 queens is greedier because it allows for earlier speed. But 4 queens are not enough to counter helion/banshee harass, which means you will also be relying on lings/roaches to defend vs the helions. If you dont make at least some lings, you will at the minimum lose injects, at the maximum you will start losing queens, which can quickly turn to a disaster. 6 queens can fight helions/banshee straight up no problem. With 4 queens you will need spores at ur main and 3rd base at least. But the earlier speed allows for speedlings to cancel the third for instance. Most terrans, if they see you gasless opening, will plant their 3rd CC right at the 3rd.
What i do personnally is as follows : go right to 4 queens, plant down the 3rd, start 2 geysers, start 5th queen, start 2 more geysers, start the 6th queen at the 3rd base. With this build you can drone right to 70 vs helion/banshee harass. I'll make 2 spines in the mineral line at the 3rd to discourage helion suicide into my drone and I'll wall off my nat with double evo, one spine and one baneling nest/roach warren so that one queen (the queen from the nat) can wall it off completely. My gas is spent on lingspeed then lair then upgrades then a bunch of roaches/banes depending on my scouting. The lair before upgrades allows for overseers to be up in time vs banshee.
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On December 06 2012 00:25 MstrJinbo wrote:
When I use the 6 queen opener It goes something like this
1. Economic hatch first 15h/16 pool
2. Double queen. These queens inject and move to the front to start creep.
3. Double queen
4. 1 drone from the first inject is rallied to third and start third hatch.
5. Double queen, take 4 gases. So far pretty much only built queens overlords and drones.
6. In no particular order: metabolic boost, lair, double evo, baneling nest and macro hatch.
There are lots of variations to 6 queen. For example Some take the hatch after the 5th and 6th queen. So whatever you are comfortable with should be fine. Common things are 6 queens and a fast third. I don't usually see just 2 gasses taken with 6 queen. It's usually 3 or 4. I go spire so 4 gas seems to work better. When you take your gas you can just let the gas income "time" your speed lair 1/1 upgrades and other tech.
Overlord scout should come a bit later. At 6 min you will rarely see anything interesting and so long as Terran expanded you aren't really changing your build anyways. At 8 min you get really good info.
I actually think if you scout banshee (as in hellion/banshee obviously not the 2 port cheese)it's more reason to take the third as soon as you can so you have creep to get a spore up. You still want to power drones and you have 6 queens and spores for detection so you should be fine. It can get annoying on maps like ohana where you have to walk around the rocks but it's something you can deal with.
It's fine to get a baneling nest and to research baneling speed. Just don't blindly morph banelings. If you see an attack, make banelings if not, save the gas for infestors. That being said, there are cases where a couple banes for drop defense can be good, but infestors should take priority.
If you start lair after speed you have overseers in time vs cloacked banshees. If you are good with your injects, you dont need a macro hatch before you actually made your first flock of mutas.
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On December 05 2012 17:20 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 07:21 Glon wrote:On December 04 2012 15:35 6xFPCs wrote:On December 04 2012 13:58 emperok wrote:
In ZvZ when going hatch first, where should I place my pool? I have trouble defending 6-8 pools when they target my pool. Short answer: behind mineral line, so that he has to risk trapping himself if he commits to attacking it (drones can come in from behind and sandwich the lings), and so that it is easily protected with drones (he has to pass by the mining drones to get to the pool). Long answer involves reading belial's anti-6pool guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295586EDIT: trouble with verb tenses. I disagree. Losing your pool to a 6-7 pool actually ISN'T a big deal, at all. Especially if you can get a spine down and a queen out, allowing your opponent to snipe your pool isn't a big deal since you will have around 3 TIMES the amount of drones as him. Losing your pool, even if you lose your queen, will still give you a MASSIVE drone lead (assuming you hold the push) that will carry into the mid game (defending the mineral line w/ spine, rebuilding pool). You should put your pool in a choke, either just below or just above the space between the gas geiser and the hatchery (wherever it doesn't block gas) and use it to section off 1 side from attack. That's really interesting; I'll definitely defer to your wisdom on this. However, I feel like blocking one side doesn't do much, one side open is no different from two sides open, because he can't split his lings and still hope to get drone kills (if you're stacking defensively). I agree that losing the pool is not a big deal, I'd rather lose the pool than lose a ton of mining time, but if he's having trouble as a result of losing his pool, would you still recommend that he just let it die? It sounds like he's facing a 6pool with constant ling reinforcement, so eventually he got run over. Or it's possible that the real issue is that he's not drone stacking, so he loses the engagement regardless. Hard to know without a replay, or even league info. (hint hint, emperok, maybe you want to add more info?)
Check out Belial's comprehensive guide against 6 pool (this is not the exact title). He explains how to defend a 6 to 9 pool wihtout losing your pool. You should be able to not lose your pool vs early pool even if u did go hatch first and canceled it. It all depends on the placement of your pool. It cant have too much surface area to it and it cant be too far away from a good spot to stack drones.
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On December 05 2012 07:21 Glon wrote:
I disagree. Losing your pool to a 6-7 pool actually ISN'T a big deal, at all. Especially if you can get a spine down and a queen out, allowing your opponent to snipe your pool isn't a big deal since you will have around 3 TIMES the amount of drones as him. Losing your pool, even if you lose your queen, will still give you a MASSIVE drone lead (assuming you hold the push) that will carry into the mid game (defending the mineral line w/ spine, rebuilding pool).
You should put your pool in a choke, either just below or just above the space between the gas geiser and the hatchery (wherever it doesn't block gas) and use it to section off 1 side from attack.
If you lose your pool, how are you going to defend the next agression? You can only make drones for a loooooong time and will be overrun by lings for sure.
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On December 04 2012 20:50 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 18:41 ShotgunMike wrote:
Hi all, I'm a low level zerg (gold) and I have have had the mindset that; (1) better to have one opener in ZvZ that I feel safe with and always play this and (2) that it does not matter too much if the opener is not optimal since mistakes will cost me and my opponent more than a slight inefficiency in my opening. I tend to go 14gas/14pool (which was common before but is not so common now with the stronger queens, I guess). I pull two workers of gas as soon as my pool is done and start my first queen and speed right away. I expo as soon as I feel safe and get a baneling nest quickly. I will often get a few early banelings and try to get some early damage done. Once my two base is fully saturated (two gas) I go for a +1/+1 speed-roach timing.
This gives me a fairly good win-rate in ZvZ. I oftentimes beat any early pool openers and also others that go pool->hatch. However, I have a problem with people that are good at defending their hatch-first openers.
So, my questions;
1. How inefficient is my opener? Is the 14gas/14pool opener not recommended at all now?
2. If I do this and have a baneling nest but does no damage to the hatch-first player, what would be a preferred continuation? I have gone into mass-zergling and overrun my opponents at times. This has given some success but if feels volatile (one baneling or a solid queen/roach block can ruin your day). I use 14/14 on open 4 player maps. I just feel weird using 15p 16h in ZvZ. It works fine. Mainly it allows you to grab map control early due to super early ling speed. vs hatch first, he will have superior larvae production, so you can only really accomplish aggression with banes. but if he has a spine, mineral walks his drones through his double queen ramp block, and put down his own bane nest on time... it's not going to kill him. At best, you prevent him from mining at his natural for awhile. Through diamond, you can probably get away with it, but as many pros have mentioned, early ZvZ is "solid", in that proper safe play in the early game (scouting, spine, 4 banes, queen block) cannot be killed by an all-in.
The 14-14 opening, in current meta-game, will put you ahead vs : - early pools since you have lings in time
-15 pool 16 hatch openings, because they get gas so late (after pool, hatch and queen!) that a 14-14 has an easy time banelingbusting them to death
It will put you behind vs - Hatch first that does not take a too late gas
- 15 pool 16 hatch opening that takes gas after hatch (and not after queen) and make a baneling nest before speed. Those players will have baneling in time. They know you 14-14 because of the timing of your lings and expansion (they see it with an overlord).
If you're looking for a safe build, go 15 pool-16hatch then 15 overlord, then 15 queen and gas as soon as you can afford without cutting drones.
This 15 pool gives you freewin vs any early pool except 14-14. If you indentify 14-14 you have, as i said, to take earlier gas and make baneling nest before speed and have a spine.
Oh, and you should ban as much 4 players map as possible. Z just need to know where their opponent is to be able to overlord scout anything they need to scout. The only 4 players map i have not banned is shakuras, but on this map you can make sure 100% to scout expo timing with overlords, which makes it be more like a 2 players map
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On December 04 2012 08:49 Glon wrote:I might be able to run this. Looking at the other threads, my only problem is learning how to format the OP. I basically already do this in the allthingszerg subreddit ~ http://www.reddit.com/r/allthingszerg/Who do I contact about this?
PM "Monk." (PM is in the upper left side of your screen)
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On December 06 2012 01:26 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 00:25 MstrJinbo wrote:
When I use the 6 queen opener It goes something like this
1. Economic hatch first 15h/16 pool
2. Double queen. These queens inject and move to the front to start creep.
3. Double queen
4. 1 drone from the first inject is rallied to third and start third hatch.
5. Double queen, take 4 gases. So far pretty much only built queens overlords and drones.
6. In no particular order: metabolic boost, lair, double evo, baneling nest and macro hatch.
There are lots of variations to 6 queen. For example Some take the hatch after the 5th and 6th queen. So whatever you are comfortable with should be fine. Common things are 6 queens and a fast third. I don't usually see just 2 gasses taken with 6 queen. It's usually 3 or 4. I go spire so 4 gas seems to work better. When you take your gas you can just let the gas income "time" your speed lair 1/1 upgrades and other tech.
Overlord scout should come a bit later. At 6 min you will rarely see anything interesting and so long as Terran expanded you aren't really changing your build anyways. At 8 min you get really good info.
I actually think if you scout banshee (as in hellion/banshee obviously not the 2 port cheese)it's more reason to take the third as soon as you can so you have creep to get a spore up. You still want to power drones and you have 6 queens and spores for detection so you should be fine. It can get annoying on maps like ohana where you have to walk around the rocks but it's something you can deal with.
It's fine to get a baneling nest and to research baneling speed. Just don't blindly morph banelings. If you see an attack, make banelings if not, save the gas for infestors. That being said, there are cases where a couple banes for drop defense can be good, but infestors should take priority. If you start lair after speed you have overseers in time vs cloacked banshees. If you are good with your injects, you dont need a macro hatch before you actually made your first flock of mutas.
That's right lair should be out in time for the banshees. My point was no need to rush lair and delay stuff like the third.
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How does one deal with the Polt-style hellion/marauder aggression? For people who haven't seen the Day[9] Daily/Polt's games at IPL5, it's basically FE -> +1 marauder/hellion timing, with a LOT of marauders and hellions. Delays medivacs and the third orbital and upgrades, but killed the third every time.
It is actually safe against everything and exploits anything Zerg can seemingly do, not sure how the hell to react. Banelings don't work, roaches seem like a decent answer.
Do you have to use the banelings on the marauders, then sweep in with the roaches and a speedling flank?
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On December 06 2012 06:22 Mavvie wrote:
How does one deal with the Polt-style hellion/marauder aggression? For people who haven't seen the Day[9] Daily/Polt's games at IPL5, it's basically FE -> +1 marauder/hellion timing, with a LOT of marauders and hellions. Delays medivacs and the third orbital and upgrades, but killed the third every time.
It is actually safe against everything and exploits anything Zerg can seemingly do, not sure how the hell to react. Banelings don't work, roaches seem like a decent answer.
Do you have to use the banelings on the marauders, then sweep in with the roaches and a speedling flank?
The answer is to scout it early and start making mass raoches as soon as you reach saturation on 2 base. Ofc roaches are not that good vs marauders, but it's a marauder/helion mix, which makes pure roach better against it. Something like 6 queen opening will do ok against it because 6 queens helping the roaches is a big deal.
If you have a good creepspread, try to bait a stim at the edge of the creep and run back to your expo. If you can bait out a full stim and only lose a couple roaches it's a good thing overall
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How do I deal with doomdrops? Had a game on daybreak where I was ahead, bl-infestor on my way to finish him off, then suddenly 5 medivacs drops marinemarauder in my main which kill all my important buildings and then finish off my nat and 3rd as well before my army comes back. I had a few spines for normal drop defense and spotted it before it landed, but it was too late. rallied lings to my main as well but the bio killed them w/o infestorsupport.
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On December 06 2012 09:16 asari wrote:
How do I deal with doomdrops? Had a game on daybreak where I was ahead, bl-infestor on my way to finish him off, then suddenly 5 medivacs drops marinemarauder in my main which kill all my important buildings and then finish off my nat and 3rd as well before my army comes back. I had a few spines for normal drop defense and spotted it before it landed, but it was too late. rallied lings to my main as well but the bio killed them w/o infestorsupport.
Just like with all other drops - by seeing it coming with good overlord positioning. I know its easier said than done but thats really the only way (you cant build 20 spines each base or leave half of your army home just in case this happens). If you see the doomdrop attempt from terran just go back with your lings and few infestors, that should be enough to stop it while rest of your bl-infestor army assults his base. Also remember that even if you are cought off guard by the drop always send some units (but not everything, you dont want to leave your broodlords exposed) from your army to deal with it, choosing to baserace against terran is almost never a good idea.
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On December 05 2012 20:45 halldor wrote:Alright guys i'd appreciate if you'd analyze and maybe help me understand why i lost these 2 games , both vs p. This one is on daybreak vs a masters player (i'm gold): http://drop.sc/281862This one is on ohana vs a p plat player: http://drop.sc/281863
So basically both these games are vs immo/sentry. BTW, it's quite BM to say gg and then not leave =/ But anyway, on Daybreak you didn't have NEARLY enough infestor/spine for his push. you want to put down way more, especially at your 4th. Also you got a 4th blindly before scouting that he had taken a 3rd (which he didn't). He probably should have killed you with his first push.
On Ohana, you went infestor vs immo/sentry, which I wouldn't recommend unless you're REALLY good at delaying. Basically you should either go hydra or engage him several times on the way to your base with a lot of roach/ling. Double OL sac if you don't know what's going on, and keep a ling at your 3rd.
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Standard Timing Questions (In-game time)
What are standard Hive timings in ZvT and ZvP?
Gas, Bane nest, and 3rd base timings in ZvT while doing 4 Queen build?
2 Gas, 4th Queen, Evo/Roach den in ZvP?
Gas timings and 3rd base timings in ZvZ while doing Muta build? While doing +1/+1 Ranged build? While doing Infestor build?
Other Questions
What exactly are you looking for when scounting Gas timings and Forge upgrades in ZvP? When do you know he's doing an Immortal Sentry timing vs Blink timing vs Air/DT vs fast 3rd?
Looking to get my timings and builds tightened up. Thanks in advance! By reading this thread, I've learn so much!
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EPT
