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On September 18 2012 01:02 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 00:50 ATOMICfy wrote:
Hi i am curently in gold ( i know i am not taht good but i want to improve), and i want to know what kinds of opening vs another zerg. i have been going wiht 2 builds against zerg
1. 8 pool in to macro mode.
2. Fast second and fast gas for muta play.
but now most zergs in diamond and high plat are slaughtering me wiht no mercy... T^T
PLZ HELP MEEE <3 First stop 8 pooling zvz. What is specifically killing you with your Macro into muta build? Speedling Allins? 2 base lair roach timings?
the probelm with the zvz for me is that the opponent goes fast max out build with bunch of roaches with plus one or two missile up.... i cant hold with my third going up and not enough army....
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How can i win versus terrarn who goes really greedy 3 expand play?
i tried to rush bling/sling but than thye hav bunch of supply walls and bunkers ready to go.... plz help T^T
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On September 19 2012 05:59 ATOMICfy wrote:
How can i win versus terrarn who goes really greedy 3 expand play?
i tried to rush bling/sling but than thye hav bunch of supply walls and bunkers ready to go.... plz help T^T
Play more greedy. Take a 4th, get 85 drones, tech to hive.
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On September 19 2012 05:53 ATOMICfy wrote:
I lose to the imortal and centry push;;;; how can i prevent from losing? i tried to go roaches and lings
and spines to back up the army(normally i get 2~3 spines or 5 when i see all in).....
currently i go 15 hatch in to 16 pool and than gas near 30 ish mark....
and i try to max out fast as i can and attack with plus one missile or melee attk...
but everytime i am agasint the toss, 80% of them go mass imotal and centry push and i cant deal wiht it...
plz help T^T
P.S. my english is bit sloppy since i am korean ( although i am only in plat T^T)
Hey, I wrote a guide/had a big discussion about it here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647
Belial's guide also covers basically the same content, just search [g] belial and it's in his ZvP guide 
Basically, you can use roach/ling and if you engage perfectly on a good map (flanks, surrounds, no more than 20 roaches) then you should be able to take it down. However, the general consensus on the "easy" way to insta-win is simply make 20 spines at your nat, and basetrade once he pushes out! Easy wins every time, usually they GG once I kill all their base and they see the spine forest. Rally reinforcements into the spine wall, I recommend only using 2-3 gas, and then stop mining it once you throw down the spines. You don't need gas really, but if he doesn't leave or you can't win then I suppose tech to lair and you can go muta/ling.
There's also some builds involving super fast 3 base muta (4:30 gas, speed -> lair, skip roach warren/evo unless you scout gateway all-in)
Some people have used banelings to great success, but honestly they seem like using roach/ling except if he misses one forcefield you win. I would use this, but banelings are largely unexplored in high-level ZvP.
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Hey guys I'm a diamond zerg and just need help on zvt.... my main composition is ling bling muta and I'm wondering that should I max out on three bases and apply pressure while securing my fourth (like zvp?) or should I take my third and try to turtle and get the higher tech army then the terran...
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On September 19 2012 07:49 Xonix wrote:
Hey guys I'm a diamond zerg and just need help on zvt.... my main composition is ling bling muta and I'm wondering that should I max out on three bases and apply pressure while securing my fourth (like zvp?) or should I take my third and try to turtle and get the higher tech army then the terran...
Pretty sure that if he takes a third you should max out on 4 bases, or around 85 drones.
Keep in mind that ling/bling/muta "pressure" is really all-in. At around 170+ of Terran supply, if Terran microes well, you're fucked. That's why most (all?) pros go infestors, because you can get hive tech out in time for the 170+ food push. Banelings get destroyed by tanks, mutas get eaten alive by marines, lings die to Marine/medivac/tank...yeah. You need hive to break a near-max Terran army, and Belial has mentioned that sometimes, even going infestor fast hive the Terran can still kill you before you get hive tech out with that aforementioned push.
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On September 19 2012 07:49 Xonix wrote:
Hey guys I'm a diamond zerg and just need help on zvt.... my main composition is ling bling muta and I'm wondering that should I max out on three bases and apply pressure while securing my fourth (like zvp?) or should I take my third and try to turtle and get the higher tech army then the terran...
3 points in general: Taking a fourth is never wrong as soon as you see the Terran take a third (and that the map allows it). Playing on 3 bases versus 3 is a ticking timebomb, as soon as you loose a single engagement you might be in an unwinnable position.
2) If you should transition out of ling bling muta depends highly on what your opponent is doing. If he starts to react against the mutas (tons of turrets, highly upgraded marines or thors or worse both) it's time you got out of there.
3) Even if you like playing Mutas at some point infestors are basically needed. Fungal growth is pretty much our bread and butter versus marines, so I have no idea why you want to leave it out of your composition.
That said, it depends on how your games flow, if the Terran turtles well you cannot apply any significant pressure. Attacking into sieged tanks with ling/bling is hard at best and usually impossible and marines with upgrades shred mutas. So Yes in most games unless you are clearly doing gamewinning damage you need to transition out of them at some point to reach either broods or ultras (given that mutas are fairly gas intensive ultras are likely easier to reach).
Unless the map is utterly bad for a 4th base taking it as soon as you have map control (something your mutas should give you) is almost never wrong.
edit: @Mavvie: actually if you go for upgraded Mutas you can often stop the 170 supply pushes easier than with infestors simply by threatening to basetrade. Also you have a highly mobile army, so as soon as the Terran makes a mistake with his tanks you might get a favorable engagement off. It does require good micro and mistakes on the Terrans part (bad leapfrogging mostly or too few tanks to deal with the banelings, which can happen if you manage to snipe a few). Still it is risky and depends highly on the map and your skill and army control.
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Definitely that's viable, but if you have so much supply not fighting he can leave some marines, a few thors, and a lot of turrets (or even just not move out because your hive is so delayed), and kill you.
That being said, neither Xonix or I are anywhere near a high enough level where this matters (or as you said, Terran plays perfectly). I have only lost once to this push, and I've beaten it 15+ times. They just siege late/don't split/don't target fire banes. If they make any of those mistakes, you win.
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Thanks for the response guys... usually I get mutas to hold off drops in mid game and to take like massive map control... Im basicly always onto infestor tech by the time he takes his fourth.... I just find it super hard to win in late game with bl or ultras.... I just also find its more of a chaotic matchup where terran is viable to drop at any part of the game... thanks a lot though
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As i really dislike heavy Broodlords plays, i'm wondering what else can be done outside all-ins in ZvP. I tried Ultras but didn't find out a good transition with that, even if it seems powerfull. If someone have advice on this unit in ZvP, I'd like to know it please. I'm really, really tired of turtling fest BL/Corru/Spines.
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On September 19 2012 08:42 DuckNuked wrote:
As i really dislike heavy Broodlords plays, i'm wondering what else can be done outside all-ins in ZvP. I tried Ultras but didn't find out a good transition with that, even if it seems powerfull. If someone have advice on this unit in ZvP, I'd like to know it please. I'm really, really tired of turtling fest BL/Corru/Spines.
I feel the same way, you can try muta play, works quite good for me and its fun to play
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Hey all. First time poster, long time (2+ years) lurker. Right now I'm hovering in between gold and platinum (my MMR is pretty much right on the line) and really struggling against terran mech. Here's a recent replay :
Kestnuts vs DrDinky.
Some analysis :
Still strugglin with 6 queen opener...it isn't "flowing" for me yet. 3rd and 4th are probably a bit late. I floated an ungodly amount of minerals. I over-reacted massively to the banshee harass as well (too many spores). I feel like I held the first push reasonably well (better than I expected). My counter push may not have been the best idea. I'm sort of at a loss here, I don't feel like I could have rushed hive tech fast enough to deal with that 2nd push. Helpful suggestions are welcome Thanks for your time.
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Hey Kestnuts, I took a look at the replay, and I don't think it's mech that you are having terrible problems against. The guy you played was the one of the greediest players I have ever seen. He had 3 command centers before his first barracks. Then he didn't even go bio, he went right into hellion banshee. He was playing very risky, and he probably loses a lot of the time because he plays like that. Any sort of early attack would have roflstomped him.
As for your play, you opened just fine, but you had mad excess minerals, EXPAND, spend your larvae, and tech when you have excess. You should have built another hatchery earlier, its good to have 4 hatcheries on 3 base. You could probably get your gasses earlier and all at the time same time too.
You macro'ed pretty well, but you were floating a lot, but you can fix that. You had a better economy than he did, and if you had spent your money, and maxed out at 200/200 you could have won. SPEND YOUR MONEY!
also, I would just suggest you poke and prod a little more maybe with a zergling. Also get an overseer when you hit lair. They're extremely useful.
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On September 19 2012 08:42 DuckNuked wrote:
As i really dislike heavy Broodlords plays, i'm wondering what else can be done outside all-ins in ZvP. I tried Ultras but didn't find out a good transition with that, even if it seems powerfull. If someone have advice on this unit in ZvP, I'd like to know it please. I'm really, really tired of turtling fest BL/Corru/Spines.
Personally you just have to land the fungals with broodlords in the late game... you don't have that many other options becuase ultras just get raped by immortals
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On September 19 2012 12:55 HighLach wrote:
Hey Kestnuts, I took a look at the replay, and I don't think it's mech that you are having terrible problems against. The guy you played was the one of the greediest players I have ever seen. He had 3 command centers before his first barracks. Then he didn't even go bio, he went right into hellion banshee. He was playing very risky, and he probably loses a lot of the time because he plays like that. Any sort of early attack would have roflstomped him.
As for your play, you opened just fine, but you had mad excess minerals, EXPAND, spend your larvae, and tech when you have excess. You should have built another hatchery earlier, its good to have 4 hatcheries on 3 base. You could probably get your gasses earlier and all at the time same time too.
You macro'ed pretty well, but you were floating a lot, but you can fix that. You had a better economy than he did, and if you had spent your money, and maxed out at 200/200 you could have won. SPEND YOUR MONEY!
also, I would just suggest you poke and prod a little more maybe with a zergling. Also get an overseer when you hit lair. They're extremely useful.
Thanks for the response ^_^ I was taken by surprise by how quickly he was able to build that army up. I wish I'd seen how greedy he was playing in time to do something about it. Thanks for the tips!
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I been doing a roach/ling maxed push at protoss 3rd for a while. People have been pointing out that it really an all-in though.
So I've been thinking. If you don't do that in the mid-game, then what do you do? Do you simply camp, and tech up to deathball?
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If I'm going for a roach/ling/infestor midgame at which point do I want to start adding on spines?
Also, how early should I start my spire tech? I used to just start it once I started hive, but it seems like a need corruptors to defend against a 3 base stalker/colossus death push.
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On September 19 2012 15:09 gronnelg wrote:
I been doing a roach/ling maxed push at protoss 3rd for a while. People have been pointing out that it really an all-in though.
So I've been thinking. If you don't do that in the mid-game, then what do you do? Do you simply camp, and tech up to deathball?
You take your fourth as he starts to get enough immortal-sentry to establish his third. Go to 8 gas, start infestor tech. Scout for what his next tech path is, whether he continues to just build up stalkers (get more stuff) or whether he goes for colossi (get spire, make corruptors). Start hive and spire.
See Belial's ZvP guide for more, in the lategame section. Read the "playing the game" section above that for a better understanding of the mid- to lategame approach.
On September 19 2012 15:23 734pot wrote:
If I'm going for a roach/ling/infestor midgame at which point do I want to start adding on spines?
Also, how early should I start my spire tech? I used to just start it once I started hive, but it seems like a need corruptors to defend against a 3 base stalker/colossus death push.
Spines are a way to transition safely to broodlords. Add spines once you have 4-5 bases and have a decent infestor count (6 minimum) and strong drone count (85+) and are starting hive+spire. Spines without infestors are less a solid defense and more a stack of fodder for stalkers to chew through. Spines before you have enough drones are just dead drones. And spines without hive tech don't serve much purpose. Don't violate these rules, otherwise you'll flail about trying to grasp your hive tech and while you may reach it, it won't be the powerful game-ending BL-infestor thing you envisioned. You'll be lacking some critical component, and, in my experience, you'll end up outclassed/outmacro'd due to the ease of protoss simply maxing out (no real worrying about army composition for toss).
Other than starting spire because you scouted it, I recommend that you start it after you get to 6 gas and your first batch of 75 energy infestors are popping out. If you're on top of your scouting, however, you can generally pinpoint how late you can get it. Often it's the case that the protoss third will finish before they add the robo bay, at least in my experience, because they're so concerned about a big roach-ling attack on their third that they've been mostly focused on immortals until they wall off their third.
You should also check Belial's ZvP guide. He also talks about deathballs in a subsection of the "avoiding ridiculous losses" part. Recommended especially because it sounds like you may be leaning too heavily on roaches.
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Hello everybody,
I'm a french Master Zerg, and i have some trouble with my actual hotkey.
I currently use :
- "crtl1" for my global army
- "crtl 2" for infestor
- "ctrl 5" for all hatcheries
- And add to this a capture of position of my different hatch with F1-F2-F3-F4 (like TLO).
What do you think about that ? this is enought ?
I actually dont use a group for my queen, is it a mistake ? knowing i already use a capture of position for inject speed.
Thanks for your help !
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On September 19 2012 20:07 Berty wrote:
Hello everybody,
I'm a french Master Zerg, and i have some trouble with my actual hotkey.
I currently use :
- "crtl1" for my global army
- "crtl 2" for infestor
- "ctrl 5" for all hatcheries
- And add to this a capture of position of my different hatch with F1-F2-F3-F4 (like TLO).
What do you think about that ? this is enought ?
I actually dont use a group for my queen, is it a mistake ? knowing i already use a capture of position for inject speed.
Thanks for your help !
There are already many threads about hotkeying queens and injecting stuffs, so try them out, and just stick to the one you feel the most comfortable.
There isn't a single end-all method.
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EPT
