EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 353
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Sajaki
Canada1135 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Sajaki
Canada1135 Posts
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poppenfrack
28 Posts
On August 16 2012 13:25 Gendo wrote: Here all the latest IEM reps, available like seconds after match, will link you to other sites later http://www.esl-world.net/masters/download/search/?filter[order_1]=created&filter[node]=4255&filter[start]=0&filter[age]=4weeks&filter[category]=replay Thanks a ton! On August 16 2012 14:15 Sajaki wrote: What is the best time to take your third base against a terran who is doing the fOrGG style 1 rax expand into reactor hellion into banshee fast third upgrade style. Also... against this style... is it better to get to hive ASAP or stick to ling/infestor/bane for the first maxout? I was a top master terran before switching to zerg, and I always went the 1rax FE into 1-1-1 build, and what I found most difficult to deal with was actually 3hatch before pool, or any sort of ridiculously fast 3rd (into mass queen). The complete opposite is maybe even more difficult to deal with; the insane roach/ling all-ins. Since terran macro in TvZ requires some degree of greed you can often just flat out win with roach/ling timings (not the 7:30 roach/bane, earlier than that). As far as hive timing goes it is already reached really fast in most games, so there's no real need to rush for it, but rushing for hive can catch your opponent off-guard for sure (especially against mech), and give you a huge edge. | ||
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poppenfrack
28 Posts
He does a failed 3pylon abuse, I do 15hatch. I see exactly what's coming, 100% perfect scouting. I still get utterly destroyed in the supposedly zerg-favored 'baserace'. Help plz: http://drop.sc/239450 | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On August 17 2012 01:51 poppenfrack wrote: OK, I just tried some muta/ling basetrade vs immo all-in. Some notes: He does a failed 3pylon abuse, I do 15hatch. I see exactly what's coming, 100% perfect scouting. I still get utterly destroyed in the supposedly zerg-favored 'baserace'. Help plz: http://drop.sc/239450 Just watching now, haha "out" he says..that hurts  Good denying of the pylon block, but what the fuck kind of Protoss pylon blocks despite seeing 3 drones dancing around? Man, some people are thick O.o -Still no reason to go 15 pool/16hatch. It's better economically than having to pull 3+ drones for a minute or two waiting for your pool, imo. -You forgot your 28 overlord, that sets you back a lot -No need for standard roach warren/evo timings after a failed pylon block. Delay them by up to 30-60 seconds. -Injects are fairly sloppy, you've almost missed a full inject in your main by 10:00 -You get spire, but you're way, way, way too late. I'm not sure if he moves out yet, but he has 2 immos and 4 sentries...he should move out in 20-30 seconds to hit the timing. Ok, here's what you're talking about. "The basetrade didn't favour me!!". You need spines. Like, a shitload of spines. Honestly, 20+ spines. Every drone mining minerals at your third makes a spine in your nat. Then you move out with muta/ling, basetrade with that. Rally reinforcements to your spine forest. He can't kill you, you can kill him. You won't win a basetrade without spines. A few macro errors, somehow he was ahead in supply the entire game, don't open hatch first, get earlier gases if you're going to try mutas, and you should be okay. | ||
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poppenfrack
28 Posts
On August 17 2012 02:27 Mavvie wrote: Just watching now, haha "out" he says..that hurts Good denying of the pylon block, but what the fuck kind of Protoss pylon blocks despite seeing 3 drones dancing around? Man, some people are thick O.o -Still no reason to go 15 pool/16hatch. It's better economically than having to pull 3+ drones for a minute or two waiting for your pool, imo. -You forgot your 28 overlord, that sets you back a lot -No need for standard roach warren/evo timings after a failed pylon block. Delay them by up to 30-60 seconds. -Injects are fairly sloppy, you've almost missed a full inject in your main by 10:00 -You get spire, but you're way, way, way too late. I'm not sure if he moves out yet, but he has 2 immos and 4 sentries...he should move out in 20-30 seconds to hit the timing. Ok, here's what you're talking about. "The basetrade didn't favour me!!". You need spines. Like, a shitload of spines. Honestly, 20+ spines. Every drone mining minerals at your third makes a spine in your nat. Then you move out with muta/ling, basetrade with that. Rally reinforcements to your spine forest. He can't kill you, you can kill him. You won't win a basetrade without spines. A few macro errors, somehow he was ahead in supply the entire game, don't open hatch first, get earlier gases if you're going to try mutas, and you should be okay. Hmm, I don't want to make spines until he moves out, but they take so long to build I don't think they would go up in time. Perhaps if I made them in my main... | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On August 17 2012 03:20 poppenfrack wrote: Hmm, I don't want to make spines until he moves out, but they take so long to build I don't think they would go up in time. Perhaps if I made them in my main... You knew what he was doing, you know that you can win the basetrade. There's no reason not to build 20 spines @ 9:30 at the latest. | ||
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Iliad
Canada18 Posts
Recently I have found it harder to win with just roaches, lings, banelings. I get hit with bullshit strategies that I have no idea how to deal with, that aren't standard one bit. I never see them in replays etc. Examples: -Cannon rush into void ray rush, denying the natural so you simply can't get things up in time. -Terran 1 rax fe into mech with tanks and turrets surrounding the base, with drop arrangement's preventing your economy from growing beyond three base, then massing vikings so you have to dance with corrupter should you ever have a chance of killing him. -Mass viking/ raven -1 rax fe into hellion, thor, and tank play - this is a common one in gold league that I have no idea how to deal with. -The three-pylon wall-off. So it seems that I need to know: -How to deal with a cannon rush effectively - my pvz is great when they just play standard and go for a macro build I need some advice with the zvt match up in general - I lose the most in this m/u by far. I have no idea what builds are good to go with and are not outdated. Terran just has too many options , making it difficult to know what they are doing. And they can deny scouting in the first 10 minutes of the game, making it a guessing game for me. Some recent replays: http://drop.sc/239667 http://drop.sc/239666 | ||
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Xonix
225 Posts
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Xonix
225 Posts
On August 17 2012 13:50 Xonix wrote: Hey guys... I know this is simple but Im having a really hard time finding the builds... whats a good +1 roach timing in zvz thanks or tbh any build that includes roaches for that matter | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On August 17 2012 13:56 Xonix wrote: or tbh any build that includes roaches for that matter I like to do a build like this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=358243 However, it works to take a faster 2nd gas, double evo, and skip the queen temporarily on the macro hatch. Pretty successful at high diamond, but honestly I don't like it at all. Defensive banelings -> fast third just works too well. | ||
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Atthasit
Russian Federation81 Posts
On August 17 2012 13:06 Iliad wrote: + Show Spoiler + Before i start, I would like to say that I am a gold league player recently promoted from silver by following the simple mantra of "make lots of units and kill him", winning through macro. I do believe that many people have proven that you can get to diamond with just simple units. Recently I have found it harder to win with just roaches, lings, banelings. I get hit with bullshit strategies that I have no idea how to deal with, that aren't standard one bit. I never see them in replays etc. Examples: -Cannon rush into void ray rush, denying the natural so you simply can't get things up in time. -Terran 1 rax fe into mech with tanks and turrets surrounding the base, with drop arrangement's preventing your economy from growing beyond three base, then massing vikings so you have to dance with corrupter should you ever have a chance of killing him. -Mass viking/ raven -1 rax fe into hellion, thor, and tank play - this is a common one in gold league that I have no idea how to deal with. -The three-pylon wall-off. So it seems that I need to know: -How to deal with a cannon rush effectively - my pvz is great when they just play standard and go for a macro build I need some advice with the zvt match up in general - I lose the most in this m/u by far. I have no idea what builds are good to go with and are not outdated. Terran just has too many options , making it difficult to know what they are doing. And they can deny scouting in the first 10 minutes of the game, making it a guessing game for me. Some recent replays: http://drop.sc/239667 http://drop.sc/239666 Welcome to gold. And don't worry, platinum will be even worse in terms of people using random bad strategies that should never work but somehow do. Going through your list: Cannon rush. What's your ZvP build? You should be going 14 or 15 pool (I prefer 14, some people do 15, no big deal) into 16 hatch. Never hatch first in ZvP because even pros struggle to prevent cannon rushes after hatch first. Basically if you have your natural delayed, you're already dead and can just leave the game. Lately I've even seen Idra going 14g/14p/21h on his stream, not sure if it's a temporary thing or if it will stick, but I've tried it and it scares the shit out of diamond tosses. If you're scared of a tripple wall off, just have a drone follow his probe, like right when it enters your base. Terran going mech. You should get 3 bases up and pump roaches. Lots of them. Don't be afraid to attack into tanks, roaches are beefy, and you need to constantly trade armies with mech to not let him snowball an impenetrable death squad. You talk about roach ling bling aggression, do you follow a certain build for that? I like to use DRG's Roach/Ling/Bane "All-in" against 1 rax expanding terrans. But yeah, knowing what terran does is vital. Yes it can be hard to scout them sometimes. You should have 2 overlords at his base by 7 minutes, you might have to sac them both to get an idea of what he's doing, it's okay. Another way of scouting is attacking him. Read [G] Belial’s Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvT!, there's a lot of brilliant info there. And even though some of it might not apply to gold, knowing it all won't hurt you. | ||
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Iliad
Canada18 Posts
On August 17 2012 14:19 Atthasit wrote: Welcome to gold. And don't worry, platinum will be even worse in terms of people using random bad strategies that should never work but somehow do. Going through your list: Cannon rush. What's your ZvP build? You should be going 14 or 15 pool (I prefer 14, some people do 15, no big deal) into 16 hatch. Never hatch first in ZvP because even pros struggle to prevent cannon rushes after hatch first. Basically if you have your natural delayed, you're already dead and can just leave the game. Lately I've even seen Idra going 14g/14p/21h on his stream, not sure if it's a temporary thing or if it will stick, but I've tried it and it scares the shit out of diamond tosses. If you're scared of a tripple wall off, just have a drone follow his probe, like right when it enters your base. Terran going mech. You should get 3 bases up and pump roaches. Lots of them. Don't be afraid to attack into tanks, roaches are beefy, and you need to constantly trade armies with mech to not let him snowball an impenetrable death squad. You talk about roach ling bling aggression, do you follow a certain build for that? I like to use DRG's Roach/Ling/Bane "All-in" against 1 rax expanding terrans. But yeah, knowing what terran does is vital. Yes it can be hard to scout them sometimes. You should have 2 overlords at his base by 7 minutes, you might have to sac them both to get an idea of what he's doing, it's okay. Another way of scouting is attacking him. Read [G] Belial’s Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvT!, there's a lot of brilliant info there. And even though some of it might not apply to gold, knowing it all won't hurt you. I always 14 pool versus toss, specifically because a cannon rush is almost guaranteed on hatch first at all levels of play. I always follow the probe. It's when they send more probes and build 2+ pylons, then micro around with your 4 drones trying to kill the probe and build more that it become a problem. I think that happened in the zvp I posted. In terms of terran, you said go three bases and pump roaches - when do I take my 3rd? Do I do it almost like a zvp when I see a fast expand out of terran and take the third right after the second? I don't recall anything about ling bling aggression. I think I said that I just don't understand the zvt matchup as well. Thanks for your help! | ||
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KnT
Australia243 Posts
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Atthasit
Russian Federation81 Posts
On August 17 2012 15:06 Iliad wrote: I always 14 pool versus toss, specifically because a cannon rush is almost guaranteed on hatch first at all levels of play. I always follow the probe. It's when they send more probes and build 2+ pylons, then micro around with your 4 drones trying to kill the probe and build more that it become a problem. I think that happened in the zvp I posted. In terms of terran, you said go three bases and pump roaches - when do I take my 3rd? Do I do it almost like a zvp when I see a fast expand out of terran and take the third right after the second? I don't recall anything about ling bling aggression. I think I said that I just don't understand the zvt matchup as well. Thanks for your help! Seeing more than 1 probe is a huge giveaway that your opponent will commit to cannon rushing you, he already has by sending a second probe. This also means that he has minerals banked for it and he is not building his nexus thus economically hurting himself. So the only thing left do to is to defend it. By the time he plants his pylon your pool should be nearing completion, bank larvae so you can pop 6 lings right as the pool is completed (build an extractor if you didn't get to plant your hatch down). Instead of following the probes, use your drones to block the space behind mineral line so he can't place cannons there. If he tries to sneak there - attack, then back to holding. Cannons placed in front of mineral line aren't threatening because they'll die to lings before they are built. Defending commited cannon rushes is quite micro intensive and relies a lot on decision making, just remember what I said about blocking the space between mineral lines. You might not get it the first couple tries but after a few games you'll be laughing in the face of protoss scurbs trying to do this to you. For ZvT, you should really read that guide. It literally explains every possible situation, how to react, what to build, etc. A short answer to your questin is no, not just like ZvP (unless you know your opponent will go fast 3 CC, but this can't be the case in gold), rather a 35-45 3rd hatch with a 6 queen defense, at least this is how my ZvTs go. But really, put the time and read the whole guide, it's an awesome read! Somehow I was thinking you refered to early aggression with this sentence Recently I have found it harder to win with just roaches, lings, banelings. If it wasn't the case, well, I pointed you towards a new thing then, an early roach ling bane aggression :D | ||
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Monsyphon
Canada190 Posts
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On August 17 2012 21:08 Monsyphon wrote: Is the 12-minute max out the earliest form of aggresion you can perform in zvp? No, pretty sure 6 pool is the earliest form of aggression you can perform in zvp or any matchup for that matter. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On August 17 2012 21:51 sCCrooked wrote: No, pretty sure 6 pool is the earliest form of aggression you can perform in zvp or any matchup for that matter. Haha, cute xD Well, simply put...no. I like to get 1 gas @ 4:30 to get ling speed, lair, then take 5 more by 8:00. Unless I'm being hit with a gateway all-in I skip roaches to get a huge eco boost. Also, ling speed helps a ton. Honestly, gateway all-ins at a level lower than masters is pretty fucking funny. Yesterday I scouted 3 gas, with a 4th @ 6:45 so I assumed that he's bad and doing sentry/immortal all-in. I forgot my gas, was floating 1k minerals, but still managed to hold a 6gate stargate all-in without losing more than 3 drones. Slowlings imba! But really, anything works in bronze-diamond. Like using drone/queen to buy time for lings to defend all-ins. For more story time, I've defended a hellion/marine/marauder all-in, but I only had drones and 5 queens when he moved out. It's actually awesome and hilarious to just drone up even if you scout an all-in, just to hold it anyway. I digress. Stephano's roach max is definitely the most aggressive, all-in style there is in ZvP. If he gets his third up without losing his main and natural to multipronged roaches, you'll lose the game with your delayed tech (and arguably eco). The least all-in is a 4base infestor/spine turtle to get fast broodlords. My favourite style is fast mutalisks to gain map control and often outright win vs bad Protoss players. | ||
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blug
Australia623 Posts
I try use the roach/ling stephano style but I have been falling ill to immortal/sentry. Is there any guides or anything on TL on how to play ZvP? I am currently high diamond vsing masters players and I feel like it's the one matchup holding me from getting a promotion. ZvZ and ZvT seem pretty easy to me, but ZvP I am always losing to 2 base immortal all ins or they take an expansion and just protect themselves with forcefields. Infact, Forcefields are pretty much screwing me over. | ||
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