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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On August 15 2012 18:27 gronnelg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 06:30 Icarox wrote:
How do you make ZvZ fun?
Im top dia, facing off against masters all the time and beating them on a regular basis.
But ZvZ is seriously the dumbest most dull matchup in the game, or so I feel. Its only based around ling-drone, and the occasional baneling for pressure or guarding your ramp. And then you move into midgame, and almost always stay there. Unless theres mutaplay involved and one player may or may not delay a third or etc. And moving into Ultras.
Is it because Ive watched TvT and PvP too much and seen that they alter units, tactics and openings?
Hell, PvP is allegedly the 'coinflip matchup' of the game. But thats just like an ordinary ZvZ opening. And then ling-drone. Ling-drone. Ling-drone.
I guess that what Im asking for is less for solid strats, openers or the like. And rather goofy stuff that you can use to throw people off and maybe experience a side of the game that feels fresh and not completely stagnant.
I've been playing around personally with +2+2+2 speedroach-speedling for midgame and then use that for t3 lately, but obviously lings dont fare well against infestors if they ever found you clumped up. But its interesting cus you got a bunch of units that you can flank with and exploit your multitasking even for the midgame. I felt just like you, until a few weeks ago, when I started using blade55555s ling instestor, into ultra build. Having a build is great. Knowing what to do at all times, and actually doing somehting that works. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344989
the grass is always greener on the other side
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On August 15 2012 08:11 Belial88 wrote:I have a question and replay: http://drop.sc/238841I have been having trouble with people who go 9/10/11 Pool in a macro game. See, I 10 drone scout, and reactively go 15 pool. I'm way ahead, right? I grab a gas, and go baneling nest first so I can take my natural honestly, quickly, while being able to hold any sort of all-in follow-up, despite having way less lings than an opponent who just pumps only lings all game long. However, I have a really big problem with Zergs who 10 pool, and play macro from there, dishonest macro - As in they take their hatch immediately. And maybe they can do that with all the lings, it's not a big deal, because I'm way ahead in drones (assuming we both gas normally). But then they don't get any gas, speed, or banes. And I end up behind because I play honestly, while they don't. But see, if I go speed first, I can't secure my natural against a flood of lings, I need banelings. And if I go baneling nest first, I can't really scout if they are going for drones or whatnot. So what the fuck. How am I supposed to play against 10 pools like this? I think in this game, I could have inferred that he had nothing when he took such a fast expo. But I could not have known if he was going straight into baneling tech and would have been able to hold any all-in. I do drone scout his gas, I guess I could have known he would have been vulnerable, but I figured I would have been way ahead and I would just play it safe. How can you play against 10 pool like this?
If he gets his hatchery that early he really can't be making slowlings en masse, so getting up gas while he takes his hatch is actually really good. Consider this, you have a higher dronecount and a bigger economy than him on one base, he has just invested 300 minerals and a drone for an eventual catch up in the drone count. He either has to go completely and utterly all in, or has to cut enormous corners to get even in the worker count again, there is almost no middle way. So what I like to do is get gas first before taking my expansion.
The person who gets speed up first gets to pressure without investing gas. You force him to make zerglings with your speedling pack and perhaps bait out baneling morphs as well. In the meantime, you can transition to a 2 base muta build because you save so much on your own gas. Just go Baneling nest before lair and bait out zerglings while you drone up behind it. Speedling pressure in general is really great when going for a 2 base lair style of play because you don't have to invest any gas and you force him to invest in banelings to defend, forcing his tech to be delayed.
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On August 15 2012 15:19 Belial88 wrote:
I got a question -
why do some zerg pros go 2 base roach/infestor? It seems to be done solely as a reaction to 2 base muta (i dont think 2 base infestor is too popular so no one seems to think that may come), but you can hold 2 base muta with fast third before lair and then spores, queens, and infestors as you would with 2 base lair infestor right? It seems they are just going 2 base infestor, and then adding roaches after third, but why dont they just go third before lair every game?
ZvZ metagame is so ridiculously hard to keep up with ;/
edit: hm maybe its just effort doing a 2 base speedroach all-in.. im not sure. it seems like most pros do it as just 2 base infestor as a way to defend 2 base muta... im still confused why they do that instead of going third before lair vs muta play.
I really wouldn't worry about this build at all because it is quite bad. There is absolutely no reason to not get your early third if you plan on doing roach macro.
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Just felt like uploading my ZvT games involving Ultralisk-Baneling, and my Contaminate style vs mech openers. All the games are around 2k MMR ( so yes, high diamond - low masters, for real >.> )
Overseer contaminate:
http://drop.sc/239049
http://drop.sc/239050
Misread the terrans opener, went for contaminate on upgrades and factories instead. Also Ultra-Bane transition later on:
http://drop.sc/239051
and an Ultralisk-Zergling-Baneling game:
http://drop.sc/239052
Take from it what you will, just wanted to show more Ultralisk games considering Belial has been asking for them.
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Some questions:
Is there a way to add eggs to a control group? Specifically this is about mutalisks, because when I'm flying around 24/7 and harassing with mutalisks my rally would stack quite a few idle mutalisks in my nat. So, what I started to do was rally my hatches to my mutalisks, but this meant that anything else than mutalisks would also get rallied. So, then I started control-clicking the eggs whenever I built mutalisks and rallied them to my main group, but this seems a tab bit inefficient and I believe I've seen/heard about pros adding eggs directly to a control group.
I read some pages back where I believe Belia (sorry if I got the name wrong) mentioned that lair isn't done in time for most all-ins (ZvP). Like, really? I haven't watched many pro replays since I switched to Zerg, so maybe I'm doing it all wrong, but I take 2 gases (3hatch build) at around 6 minutes and use my first 100 gas to get my lair started. So that lair is done quite a few minutes before the earliest all-ins hit. Should I be dumping my first gas into lingspeed instead? Or double evos? I use my gas for lair -> lingspeed > +1 armour or +1 claws -> roachspeed/burrow/tunneling claws/spire.
I was watching a Zerg stream (I believe it was Syz, some high GM EU Zerg) and he consistently went for 2base infestors in every ZvP he played. How common is this and is it in any way better than fast 3hatch? I'd feel really uncomfortable being on equal bases with my Protoss opponent for so long, but I guess the infestors can be used aggressively if the Protoss tries to take a 3rd? And defending all-ins might be easier on 2base, specifically on maps where it's difficult to flank the Protoss (Cloud Kingdom, for example).
Why is 15hatch so rarely used in ZvP? Of course, the pylon block can happen, but I think most people just fear canons? I feel like a drone patrolling the ramp and 1-2 more drones making sure pylons/canons can't be placed in abusive locations seems like a pretty safe way of playing 15hatch. On that note, I really hope Blizzard will add neutral depots to ladder maps soon, because I don't really like having to deal with it when all the serious leagues and cups don't have that feature on any of their maps.
Thanks!
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It's really easy to add units to your control group. ctrl + click eggs then shift + add them into your control group.
Yes you should get ling speed first it helps wonders vs all ins.
2 base infestor isn't very common in zvp and imo isn't that good. Unless the toss is going 1 gate expand I am not sure why syz would go 2 base infestors and not usual 3 base. Sounds pretty bad to me and old as people used to all the time but not anymore.
15 hatch is rarely used because cannon rushes are very very very easy for a protoss to execute and as a zerg it's a lot lot harder to stop. Cannon rushing is just so strong and if you make 1 tiny mistake vs it or don't handle it perfectly and I mean perfectly you are losing your natural hatchery.
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On August 16 2012 01:46 poppenfrack wrote:
Some questions:
Is there a way to add eggs to a control group? Specifically this is about mutalisks, because when I'm flying around 24/7 and harassing with mutalisks my rally would stack quite a few idle mutalisks in my nat. So, what I started to do was rally my hatches to my mutalisks, but this meant that anything else than mutalisks would also get rallied. So, then I started control-clicking the eggs whenever I built mutalisks and rallied them to my main group, but this seems a tab bit inefficient and I believe I've seen/heard about pros adding eggs directly to a control group.
Control click the eggs, shift+controlgroupnumber and you have added them to your control group. I hardly use hatchery rally points because I got fast enough to just add them immediately after I make the eggs. I think Stephano does a similar style of reinforcing.
On August 16 2012 01:46 poppenfrack wrote:
I read some pages back where I believe Belia (sorry if I got the name wrong) mentioned that lair isn't done in time for most all-ins (ZvP). Like, really? I haven't watched many pro replays since I switched to Zerg, so maybe I'm doing it all wrong, but I take 2 gases (3hatch build) at around 6 minutes and use my first 100 gas to get my lair started. So that lair is done quite a few minutes before the earliest all-ins hit. Should I be dumping my first gas into lingspeed instead? Or double evos? I use my gas for lair -> lingspeed > +1 armour or +1 claws -> roachspeed/burrow/tunneling claws/spire.
I doubt you will have your after-lair tech done before 8 minutes where the earliest all ins actually hit. You need to basically rush to the tech if you want it out before the 9:30 immortal all in. Especially with such a regular 6 minute double gas, you won't have lair out fast enough to defend those tight all ins.
On August 16 2012 01:46 poppenfrack wrote:
I was watching a Zerg stream (I believe it was Syz, some high GM EU Zerg) and he consistently went for 2base infestors in every ZvP he played. How common is this and is it in any way better than fast 3hatch? I'd feel really uncomfortable being on equal bases with my Protoss opponent for so long, but I guess the infestors can be used aggressively if the Protoss tries to take a 3rd? And defending all-ins might be easier on 2base, specifically on maps where it's difficult to flank the Protoss (Cloud Kingdom, for example).
2 base infestor is really reliant on getting good fungals off or the Protoss going for a quick third. If the Protoss just sits back behind a huge amount of cannons and takes his third at about the same time as you he will be miles ahead. Personally I don't really like Infestor play against all ins because you have to really chain those fungals to kill the units. 3 hatch is better in almost every way economically and techwise considering you can fall back on econ if your tech didn't pay off as much, whereas if you are on 2 base you're just screwed majorly.
On August 16 2012 01:46 poppenfrack wrote:
Why is 15hatch so rarely used in ZvP? Of course, the pylon block can happen, but I think most people just fear canons? I feel like a drone patrolling the ramp and 1-2 more drones making sure pylons/canons can't be placed in abusive locations seems like a pretty safe way of playing 15hatch. On that note, I really hope Blizzard will add neutral depots to ladder maps soon, because I don't really like having to deal with it when all the serious leagues and cups don't have that feature on any of their maps.
Thanks!
Because most Zergs really hate getting cannon rushed, and going hatch first is basically inviting the Protoss to plant them down. You have to be really confident in your drone pull and micro to get ahead. On top of that, if the Protoss puts down a pylon on your hatch location you are already behind a regular 15 pool opening because your Zerglings are way delayed and you can't kill that pylon off economically enough to warrent drones attacking it. Against Gateway openings it really puts you ahead though.
I go for hatch first a lot of the time, but most of the time it is probably more economical to go 15 pool instead because you can fight pylon blocks on your hatchery without getting set back so much.
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Hi! i'm plat zerg and have a really hard time vs Toss, especially 2 base allins, the only style i can beat is colossus but any other immortal mix cant manage to win a single game not even vs a silver... others match ups are very good.
I always go 3 hatch vs FFE and dont seem to get enough units in time no matter what, i noticed in the last replays that i may be low on drones like 35 at 8min and 45 at 10min (with roaches out), dont see the cause since i open 3 hatch and 4 queens, injects are spot on (at least the opening) and no units are made other than 2-4 lings, what may be the problems with the droning?
Thanks
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On August 16 2012 03:37 Gendo wrote:
Hi! i'm plat zerg and have a really hard time vs Toss, especially 2 base allins, the only style i can beat is colossus but any other immortal mix cant manage to win a single game not even vs a silver... others match ups are very good.
I always go 3 hatch vs FFE and dont seem to get enough units in time no matter what, i noticed in the last replays that i may be low on drones like 35 at 8min and 45 at 10min (with roaches out), dont see the cause since i open 3 hatch and 4 queens, injects are spot on (at least the opening) and no units are made other than 2-4 lings, what may be the problems with the droning?
Thanks
Replay could help the analysis but 35 drones @ 8 min is a MAJOR issue. You should have around 50 @ 8 min. Are you getting supply blocked, do you have idle larvaes, do you build overlord too quickly, what are your gaz/roach/evo timings? All of that can get into the balance of how many workers you have by the 8th min mark but in now way should this number be below 40...
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On August 16 2012 03:40 Maxamix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 03:37 Gendo wrote:
Hi! i'm plat zerg and have a really hard time vs Toss, especially 2 base allins, the only style i can beat is colossus but any other immortal mix cant manage to win a single game not even vs a silver... others match ups are very good.
I always go 3 hatch vs FFE and dont seem to get enough units in time no matter what, i noticed in the last replays that i may be low on drones like 35 at 8min and 45 at 10min (with roaches out), dont see the cause since i open 3 hatch and 4 queens, injects are spot on (at least the opening) and no units are made other than 2-4 lings, what may be the problems with the droning?
Thanks Replay could help the analysis but 35 drones @ 8 min is a MAJOR issue. You should have around 50 @ 8 min. Are you getting supply blocked, do you have idle larvaes, do you build overlord too quickly, what are your gaz/roach/evo timings? All of that can get into the balance of how many workers you have by the 8th min mark but in now way should this number be below 40...
Should get the habit of watching replays..all my games end before 15min and yes i think the drone/overlord production could be a lot smoother now that i notice, going to work on that asap!
Thanks for making me notice that
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On August 16 2012 04:04 Gendo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 03:40 Maxamix wrote:On August 16 2012 03:37 Gendo wrote:
Hi! i'm plat zerg and have a really hard time vs Toss, especially 2 base allins, the only style i can beat is colossus but any other immortal mix cant manage to win a single game not even vs a silver... others match ups are very good.
I always go 3 hatch vs FFE and dont seem to get enough units in time no matter what, i noticed in the last replays that i may be low on drones like 35 at 8min and 45 at 10min (with roaches out), dont see the cause since i open 3 hatch and 4 queens, injects are spot on (at least the opening) and no units are made other than 2-4 lings, what may be the problems with the droning?
Thanks Replay could help the analysis but 35 drones @ 8 min is a MAJOR issue. You should have around 50 @ 8 min. Are you getting supply blocked, do you have idle larvaes, do you build overlord too quickly, what are your gaz/roach/evo timings? All of that can get into the balance of how many workers you have by the 8th min mark but in now way should this number be below 40... Should get the habit of watching replays..all my games end before 15min and yes i think the drone/overlord production could be a lot smoother now that i notice, going to work on that asap! Thanks for making me notice that
I've heard a few players say recently that they don't like to watch replays, so here's my shortened diatribe on the subject for the sub-diamond lurkers.
Replays are the be-all and end-all of self-improvement. They are 95% of what helps you learn and improve. Watch all your losses for sure, at least enough to see your mistakes that likely led to the loss. Watch you wins, too, because they're never perfect, but watch all losses for sure, no exceptions.
Not watching replays is like a chef not tasting the food before he sends it out, or a dancer not using a mirror/camera to see how his or her form looks. No replays means you're blind to your own play.
Brush your teeth. Stay in school. Watch your replays.
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On August 16 2012 04:37 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 04:04 Gendo wrote:On August 16 2012 03:40 Maxamix wrote:On August 16 2012 03:37 Gendo wrote:
Hi! i'm plat zerg and have a really hard time vs Toss, especially 2 base allins, the only style i can beat is colossus but any other immortal mix cant manage to win a single game not even vs a silver... others match ups are very good.
I always go 3 hatch vs FFE and dont seem to get enough units in time no matter what, i noticed in the last replays that i may be low on drones like 35 at 8min and 45 at 10min (with roaches out), dont see the cause since i open 3 hatch and 4 queens, injects are spot on (at least the opening) and no units are made other than 2-4 lings, what may be the problems with the droning?
Thanks Replay could help the analysis but 35 drones @ 8 min is a MAJOR issue. You should have around 50 @ 8 min. Are you getting supply blocked, do you have idle larvaes, do you build overlord too quickly, what are your gaz/roach/evo timings? All of that can get into the balance of how many workers you have by the 8th min mark but in now way should this number be below 40... Should get the habit of watching replays..all my games end before 15min and yes i think the drone/overlord production could be a lot smoother now that i notice, going to work on that asap! Thanks for making me notice that I've heard a few players say recently that they don't like to watch replays, so here's my shortened diatribe on the subject for the sub-diamond lurkers. Replays are the be-all and end-all of self-improvement. They are 95% of what helps you learn and improve. Watch all your losses for sure, at least enough to see your mistakes that likely led to the loss. Watch you wins, too, because they're never perfect, but watch all losses for sure, no exceptions. Not watching replays is like a chef not tasting the food before he sends it out, or a dancer not using a mirror/camera to see how his or her form looks. No replays means you're blind to your own play. Brush your teeth. Stay in school. Watch your replays.
Thats right, already improved in 1 game just looking at fixing that, never watched replays since my mechanics where always better than the average but now in plat and vs a toss 2 base allin starts to make the difference...just hurts the replay buffering 
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On August 16 2012 03:37 Gendo wrote:
Hi! i'm plat zerg and have a really hard time vs Toss, especially 2 base allins, the only style i can beat is colossus but any other immortal mix cant manage to win a single game not even vs a silver... others match ups are very good.
I always go 3 hatch vs FFE and dont seem to get enough units in time no matter what, i noticed in the last replays that i may be low on drones like 35 at 8min and 45 at 10min (with roaches out), dont see the cause since i open 3 hatch and 4 queens, injects are spot on (at least the opening) and no units are made other than 2-4 lings, what may be the problems with the droning?
Thanks
Post up a replay. I just got promoted to platinum and finally figured out how to get up to at least 62 supply by 8 mins. Three queens and 2 lings means, at least 55 drones. There were several things wrong with what I was doing before. The last thing that clicked for me was remembering to build an overlord around the low 30s in supply. It'd be easiest to just analyse your replay.
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On August 16 2012 11:06 LyleGately wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2012 03:37 Gendo wrote:
Hi! i'm plat zerg and have a really hard time vs Toss, especially 2 base allins, the only style i can beat is colossus but any other immortal mix cant manage to win a single game not even vs a silver... others match ups are very good.
I always go 3 hatch vs FFE and dont seem to get enough units in time no matter what, i noticed in the last replays that i may be low on drones like 35 at 8min and 45 at 10min (with roaches out), dont see the cause since i open 3 hatch and 4 queens, injects are spot on (at least the opening) and no units are made other than 2-4 lings, what may be the problems with the droning?
Thanks Post up a replay. I just got promoted to platinum and finally figured out how to get up to at least 62 supply by 8 mins. Three queens and 2 lings means, at least 55 drones. There were several things wrong with what I was doing before. The last thing that clicked for me was remembering to build an overlord around the low 30s in supply. It'd be easiest to just analyse your replay.
replay here: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)zGDizzy_vs_(Z)Gendo/20630
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for 15 pool 15 hatch, what is a good timing for gas and that overlord?
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Does anyone have any good replay sites? It seems the replay-culture of previous RTS (like WC3 or BW) isn't really as prevalent in the SC2 scene, but surely there must be some out there? The only one I've used is SC2REP but it rarely updates. Specifically I want some ZvT replays to study as I literally have no idea what I'm doing in the matchup, just improvising every game >_<
Thanks!
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On August 16 2012 12:40 andeh wrote:
for 15 pool 15 hatch, what is a good timing for gas and that overlord?
If you're going for a fast gas, I like:
15 pool, 16 hatch, 15 overlord, 15 queen, 17 gas, 16 drone + ling
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I know this post was from awhile ago(a page or two back), but I really thought I should comment about the ZvZ openings without gas. I honestly see the majority of zergs I play going a 15-16 pool into 20-22 hatch without any gas. This gives the zerg a safe opening(vs. 6pool+) into a macro oriented build; I think it easier than going hatch first, maybe with god like micro you can hold off a 6 pool or a 10 pool speedling build but 15 pool is so much easier. In addition, the greatest advance in ZvZ is the queen range buff.
A digression, but does anyone try to use buildings to make a sim city in ZvZ? I've tried it a couple times on certain maps to hold off early ling/baneling agression, but I feel like no pros do it. It also can cause problems later, for example, sometimes I get my roach warren sniped as part of wall, which is sometimes just GG.
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^ Who does that? Are you sure you aren't mixing up the timings and not talking about 15p/15h/17-18g? Why would you go 15p/22h/no gas?
That doesn't sound safe at all, you'd just die to any sort of ling/bane pressure. There's been some people in the past who tried out gasless expands, and getting 3+ queens/2+ spines, but the opponent just takes a third against you. I think coca tried this in wcs and it went terribly.
Just because a build is 'easier', doesn't make it better - you could make 20 spines in your base and 'easily' defend, but you'll just die inevitably in the macro game. You are too far behind.
it's pretty easy imo just getting defensive banelings, holding anything off.
I don't know what sim citying you mean. People avoid doing stuff like that in their natural because it gives away too much of their build, and/or their economy. Making a couple evo's in early game zvz really hurts your economy. I know I end up a good 3-5 drones behind against hatch first players who just dont get a baneling nest or spine - they aren't playing honestly, and they'll die if I do a ling/bane pressure (i probably won't gamble on that if I see they got gas and speed), but it does hurt, and I use the banes to secure my third. There's really not much you need to be completely safe in the early game though, getting a baneling nest and spine ~26, or depending on the opponent's gas timing, and it doesn't hurt your econ much, and makes you completely safe. If you are losing to early ling/bane pressure, it sounds like your scouting of their natural drone count isn't good, or your build just isn't honest.
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EPT
