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This is a [D] post, but not thread-worthy. Also, I'm low masters level, let the criticism fly.
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Let's talk anti-vortex for a moment. After you start to get used to macroing up on three base, scouting for 2-base timings, base trading vs immortal sentry, and holding the spine line against the colo-whatever deathball that hits before BLs finish, you're left with the final obstacle between you and a genuine ZvP macro win: vortex.
Vortex. Long range, big area, instant cast, instant effect, cast from a flying tank. The best spell in the game--put your hands down and sit on them because there's no question about it.
There's two primary approaches to dealing with any problem: prevention and cure. (prevention is much better.)
We're all well aware of the common prevention approaches: • corruptor snipe (use corruption for heaven's sake, and flank/fungal as best you can): best approach, in my opinion • neural and burn it anywhere but on your army: this is roughly as risky and difficult and unreliable as baneling land mines (again, this is my opinion); use it when too behind to corruptor snipe, similar to using bane mines when behind • spread BLs/infestors: this last option sucks, no matter what stephano game you show me--I am 90% sure he splits and attacks into vortex because he knows he'll win due to army advantage, not because the split works in an even fight. Let me repeat my blunt opinion: splitting does not work in an even fight.
But I want to talk cure. Because sometimes you look away and in the middle of your inject cycle or planting a sixth hatch or rerooting spines, the vortex hits from nowhere. A majority of your BLs are gone in a dark, swirling flash.
What do you do?
IPL Fight Club 28, Squirtle vs Hyun, game 7
Neural parasite AFTER vortex
The vortex goes down, Hyun throws some infested terrans (not sure how important this is, I think mostly he has a TON of infestors and needs some backbone to his army). Then after a few moments, he neurals the mothership, moves it to keep it in range of the BLs about to come out of the vortex... then, because Hyun has killed a number of observers through fungal and a random forward spore at his fourth (Cloud kingdom), Squirtle has no detection for the now-cloaked BLs. The archons sit around doing nothing for a critical half second after the vortex ends, unable to target anything due to cloak. BLs spread out, and live through the toilet (except one), ITs dps down everything, gg.
A minor personal interjection here: Wow.
I'm not even going to list some of the weird other vortex cures I've seen. From IT spam to burst down archons post-vortex, to fungaling archons so they can't get into the vortex, all the way to "just throw in enough banes to insta-kill archons", they're mostly gimmicky or require bad preparation. Bad prep because why would you prepare a cure beforehand instead of just preventing the situation? These bad prep cures suck because they're not really consistent with a standard, prevention-centered playstyle. Do I not use fungal, just so I can IT spam if I suck enough that vortex hits my BLs? Do I sink 2k/2k into banes just to kill three or four archons? (Hint: if you have 2k/2k more BLs, you're probably better off against vortex than with the banes.) And of course, fungaling archons is just way too inconsistent, they almost always jump right in. Big area, instant, and all that.
Hyun's solution is not a good one, let's be clear about that, because it is also situational. I could say that if you lay down ITs, you can snipe the observers (overseers are around against mothership) and make this 100%, no problem--which is nearly as iffy as the "chain-fungal the archons away from the vortex" idea. But it is better than the other cures I've seen. Because this gives you an opportunity to possibly not lose in a situation where you would normally auto-lose, without doing anything differently (assuming you research NP) up until the moment you catch a vortex with your face.
So. Vortex -> pause a few moments, neural MS -> deny archon toilet. I think it's worth a shot if the vortex goes off (though you always want to avoid that in the first place). What do you guys think?
I think that your one single goal should be to not get vortexed. it's like your win condition. don't get vortexed = win.
If you keep putting down lots of infested terrans at the beginning of the engagement (starting before the engagement) the mothership takes heavy damage when it advances towards your broodlords, making it more vulnerable to corruptors. You still want to have some spread and concave, ideally, but you don't need to be so unbelievably spread out that your units can't support each other. infested terrans are also great for killing him when he tries to blink on broodlords. As long as the infested terrans (and a few corruptors) are in front of the broodlords, his mothership can't safely get into vortex range. He has to kill the infested terrans, while you are killing his front row of units and damaging his mothership. The infested terrans always serve as a buffer. this is especially important any time you are moving, because you might not have spines under you.
here's how I do it:
I don't know if there is a good cure, but prevention doesn't have to be that difficult.
when you are expending that much energy, you need a high infestor count, and you have to manage the energy wisely. Always try to snag whatever units you can in a fungal to prevent him from just walking away.
ty oboeman, i dont often play into lategame because im not comfortable microing infestor broodlord but this gives me a new motivation to try it. Glad you showed some less than optimal situations too. Ones where protoss was actually thinking logically for the most part! Very good video sir.
This is a super general question, but I didn't feel like it warranted it's own thread.
I'm a mid- lower master zerg, but I literally don't know any "builds" outside the 15 supply mark. I thought this was standard, and that nobody memorized builds or w.e, but then I started to talk to people. They would ask what I opened, ling numbers, gas, queens, creep, timings and I just felt like I had no idea what was going on. They found it hard to believe that I didn't know how to all in, or that I did'nt know any builds. It's kind of hard for me to express what I'm trying to say.
Basically whenever I play I just kind of adapt with what I saw, like if I see full chrono nexus I just assume I'm getting all Ined, but I don't know any timings at all, on my part or my opponent's part. If I see terran with no gas I all in or just play super greedy, but I don't know like what they're doing. I try to scout but alot of the time I would see something, and not recognize what he's doing. I guess I just play super flexible, and it's gotten me so far, but I feel like I've hitten a ceiling. I also have fairly good mechanics I think.
So I guess what I'm asking is this: How do you learn timings, both on your opponents prt and your own? Rereading this I sound pretty stupid, be gentle pls ;-;
On August 14 2012 16:24 MintyFlesh wrote: This is a super general question, but I didn't feel like it warranted it's own thread.
I'm a mid- lower master zerg, but I literally don't know any "builds" outside the 15 supply mark. I thought this was standard, and that nobody memorized builds or w.e, but then I started to talk to people. They would ask what I opened, ling numbers, gas, queens, creep, timings and I just felt like I had no idea what was going on. They found it hard to believe that I didn't know how to all in, or that I did'nt know any builds. It's kind of hard for me to express what I'm trying to say.
Basically whenever I play I just kind of adapt with what I saw, like if I see full chrono nexus I just assume I'm getting all Ined, but I don't know any timings at all, on my part or my opponent's part. If I see terran with no gas I all in or just play super greedy, but I don't know like what they're doing. I try to scout but alot of the time I would see something, and not recognize what he's doing. I guess I just play super flexible, and it's gotten me so far, but I feel like I've hitten a ceiling. I also have fairly good mechanics I think.
So I guess what I'm asking is this: How do you learn timings, both on your opponents prt and your own? Rereading this I sound pretty stupid, be gentle pls ;-;
Gw on getting so far without builds! To get to the next level though, you'll need to learn a build. TangSC, Belial88, and blade55555 all have AWESOME guides/builds. In those guides you'll find your own timings, and tips on opponent timings. Then for learning opponent timing to a greater extent, just play. You'll soon find you often die/lose to much to something (e.g. I lose way to often to terran hellion/marine push). When you identify what you're scared of, check the replays (e.g. the push I mention usually hits me approx at 10 mins).
On August 14 2012 14:54 Oboeman wrote: I think that your one single goal should be to not get vortexed. it's like your win condition. don't get vortexed = win.
If you keep putting down lots of infested terrans at the beginning of the engagement (starting before the engagement) the mothership takes heavy damage when it advances towards your broodlords, making it more vulnerable to corruptors. You still want to have some spread and concave, ideally, but you don't need to be so unbelievably spread out that your units can't support each other. infested terrans are also great for killing him when he tries to blink on broodlords. As long as the infested terrans (and a few corruptors) are in front of the broodlords, his mothership can't safely get into vortex range. He has to kill the infested terrans, while you are killing his front row of units and damaging his mothership. The infested terrans always serve as a buffer. this is especially important any time you are moving, because you might not have spines under you.
I don't know if there is a good cure, but prevention doesn't have to be that difficult.
when you are expending that much energy, you need a high infestor count, and you have to manage the energy wisely. Always try to snag whatever units you can in a fungal to prevent him from just walking away.
In the video, the IT seems to survive so long... Was there a lot of hallucinated units in video? I feel that ITs nearly insta die to colo fire? Is that IT spam in front of the army really viable?
I try to go Zergling / Speedbane for the most part in ZvT and ZvP when I can get away with it (because it's fun).
So my question is: is it good to bank up, say. 800 gas and minerals and NOT morph any zerglings into banes UNLESS you see him attack? The advantage would be, that you could invest that gas and minerals into anything else when you feel safe at some point (infestors, mutas, ...). Imagine you bank up that gas for a Ling/Speedbane defense while building a Spire (having only Lings), the attack doesn't come, and you can instantly make all that gas to Mutas. Having the OPTION of banelings is the only LARVALESS way to really instantly increase the value of your army
On August 14 2012 18:10 Mahtasooma wrote: I try to go Zergling / Speedbane for the most part in ZvT and ZvP when I can get away with it (because it's fun).
So my question is: is it good to bank up, say. 800 gas and minerals and NOT morph any zerglings into banes UNLESS you see him attack? The advantage would be, that you could invest that gas and minerals into anything else when you feel safe at some point (infestors, mutas, ...). Imagine you bank up that gas for a Ling/Speedbane defense while building a Spire (having only Lings), the attack doesn't come, and you can instantly make all that gas to Mutas. Having the OPTION of banelings is the only LARVALESS way to really instantly increase the value of your army
Yup, that's the right train of thought. Its mostly a rule to only morph mass bane when you either see a push coming, of if you yourself is pushing. It's good to have at least just 4-8 banes in the army so it's easier to deal with harassment or suprise attacks Also, it's hard in a real game to be totally aware of the resources you spend on "x", so always check that you CAN be able to morph banes at a moments notice
Have just recently switched from Terran to my original race, Zerg. A question about ZvZ: is the "BBong-BBong-style" ZvZ, 4 queens, later gas, 2 or more spines to defend, still a viable way to play ZvZ?
On August 14 2012 19:31 TwilightRain wrote: Have just recently switched from Terran to my original race, Zerg. A question about ZvZ: is the "BBong-BBong-style" ZvZ, 4 queens, later gas, 2 or more spines to defend, still a viable way to play ZvZ?
I'd say no, as almost no one uses it anymore. Giving up all map presence is just too risky/easy to abuse it in zvz.
it seems everyone these days in Masters cant do anything exept cheese and allin
fucking retarded
Those look like some really bad pylon placements... it seems like everyone in masters these days cant do anything except fail at holding cheeses and all-ins even worse than the bad cheeses and all-ins. (couldnt resist, but seriously).
Look at those pylons. All but one of them had space for 4 drones to attack them. Your pool was also done for 30 seconds, why did you not make 4 lings when your pool finished, as is standard? You should have easily crushed this.
That is, unless you went hatch first. You can't beat a cannon rush with hatch first.
And why didnt you have 2 drones following this probe, especiallly if you went hatch first? One to pressure the probe, the other one individually micro'd to stay in front of the probe to make sure shit like that doesn't happen?
I kind of feel like you are the one who just farted out here. Cannon rushing can take a lot of skill to pull off, don't chalk it up as some cheese, which is exactly why you are so poor in knowing how to handle them. Someone like combat-ex or naniwa could cannon rush you or I all day and we'd lose 10/10 times. But you should be practiced enough to beat someone your level at least...
Vortex?
I've updated my ZvP guide on this, check it out.
But basically, imo, Corruptors are the answer. You only need 6-8 Corruptors, but make sure to use corruption. With broodlings all around, and IT, they won't get shot at, as long as you keep your broodlords nearby. Oboeman's video was good, but he was overmaking corruptors by about 2x. He also didn't use corruption enough imo, but how he engaged was correct - spam IT slightly forward of the broods, as a buffer zone to make sure the mothership can't get too close, and so you can FG it in that deathzone if he dies. If he moves his MS forward, retreat with broodlords as corruptors and IT/FG just tear it down.
I went hatch first. He was random. My pool wernt done for that long IIRC. I didnt see his probe until he started placing the first pylon.
And yes, i may be failing at killing off 3 pylons with hatch first, but that dosnt change that most Masters+ players i face do some sort of cheesy stuff.
I'll have two drones following it, then. I didnt know that before. Yeah, i know i failed already.
While im at it, i'll just ask for some other things..
Terran opens hellions, gets 1/2 banshees and/or vikings to kill of overloards, creep, stray queens, 3rd base, etc. Any weaknesses in that opening, or should i simply fend it off with.. queens?
Protoss does FFE, i do quick 3rd, no gas before ~44 supply etc. max out on roaches at 11-12min. He grabs a quick third, covers it with buildings, few cannons, then get sentries, immortals and whatnot. I cant kill his third due to constant forcefielding. Cant go on his natural either because the map (cloud kingdom). Shouldi perhaps go mutas or just go for lategame BL/Infestors?
Hi! im not sure should this be on the simple question simple answer thread but here it goes:
What composition should i have lategame against P ? I feel like im getting assraped by colo/stalker/sentry/mamaship.
Another question: what composition should i go for if i see a imm/sent/stralker coming ? Should i focus on massing lings and go for +1 melee ( when doing the "stephano style" roach / ling maxout ) ? I feel really lost cause i feel im playing a lot better than my opponents sometimes and still lose cause i cant engage anywhere
I went hatch first. He was random. My pool wernt done for that long IIRC. I didnt see his probe until he started placing the first pylon.
And yes, i may be failing at killing off 3 pylons with hatch first, but that dosnt change that most Masters+ players i face do some sort of cheesy stuff.
I'll have two drones following it, then. I didnt know that before. Yeah, i know i failed already.
While im at it, i'll just ask for some other things..
Terran opens hellions, gets 1/2 banshees and/or vikings to kill of overloards, creep, stray queens, 3rd base, etc. Any weaknesses in that opening, or should i simply fend it off with.. queens?
Protoss does FFE, i do quick 3rd, no gas before ~44 supply etc. max out on roaches at 11-12min. He grabs a quick third, covers it with buildings, few cannons, then get sentries, immortals and whatnot. I cant kill his third due to constant forcefielding. Cant go on his natural either because the map (cloud kingdom). Shouldi perhaps go mutas or just go for lategame BL/Infestors?
Why would you hatch first against toss or random? Again random I'd recommend sending a 10 drone scout to see how to open, and if you do hatch first against toss, pull 3-4 drones on the low ground to deny him from making pylons/cannons in places like he did.
Why didn't you have an overlord by the natural?
Sorry, it sounds like the problem is you, not this Toss. He saw you had no overlord at the natural, and didn't follow his probe with 2 drones, and didn't patrol the ramp. No wonder everyone cannon rushes you, it's because you don't play right. You probably get bunker rushed all the time by not having an overlord or drone on the low groudn in zvt too I bet.
It isn't that Masters are cheesy. It's that you play ridiculously risky, so opponents recognize it and do this stuff against you because they know you fucked up and won't have any chance to hold it, and that someone who doesn't have an overlord on the natural or hatch's first in zvp, is going to be ez to cannon rush.
Yea, 2 drones following the probe. This is blizzard maps, where you will get ramp blocked. You need to pull 2 drones at 16 supply, 1 on a-move, and the other either to patrol the ramp, or to be micro'd in front of the probe (if you can have the micro to do that). Even if you go 11 pool.
Terran opens hellions, gets 1/2 banshees and/or vikings to kill of overloards, creep, stray queens, 3rd base, etc. Any weaknesses in that opening, or should i simply fend it off with.. queens?
I know it's tempting to always all-in and cheese (weren't you just complaining about this?), but try to stick to a macro game. Terran's siege tanks will be super late, so if you want to go a muta build, pressure him with ling/bane/muta, as long as you don't take much economic damage from the hellion/banshee. If you did, you may be harder pressed to do this pressure in time. Just max out on ling/bane/muta. Yea, fend it off with 6 queens, get a handful of lings and spores at 70+.
Protoss does FFE, i do quick 3rd, no gas before ~44 supply etc. max out on roaches at 11-12min. He grabs a quick third, covers it with buildings, few cannons, then get sentries, immortals and whatnot. I cant kill his third due to constant forcefielding. Cant go on his natural either because the map (cloud kingdom). Shouldi perhaps go mutas or just go for lategame BL/Infestors?
Yea, no shit. Man, you are the cheesiest Zerg i've ever heard of.
Roach/ling max at 11-12 minute is a cheese. It's not as cheesy as 6 pool, but it's a cheese. You know what hard counters cheese? Defensive macro play.
You know what hard counters roach/ling max?
Robo expand.
You know what hard counters roach/ling max even more than robo expand?
Robo expand on a map like Daybreak.
You know what hard counters roach/ling max even more than robo expand on daybreak?
Robo expand on a map like Cloud Kingdom
Toss can take a 6:00 third on Cloud Kingdom, and you as a Zerg, can't do shit about it. It's partially the map, but it's also the build. Toss is free to take a 6:00 third on maps that have some defensive architecture, and 9:00 if it is open. You act surprised that your all-in failed on a map that has a giant choke at the third with sentries and immortals hard countering your roaches. Try not all-inning so much.
Mutas are okay against robo expands, but cloud kingdom is so terrible for muta play that I'd recommend against mutas on cloud, even against robo expands. You can really only get mutas in time if you skip roach speed, upgrades, etc, and get spire done by 11:00, which means scouting well and cutting corners.
If Toss takes a third quickly, like before 9:00, just take a fourth, dont make a roach warren or a single roach or any roach upgrades, and get hive, 100 drones, infestatoin pit, etc, started asap. If you make 30 spines at your fourth with good creep spread, you'll have broodlords in time.
What composition should i have lategame against P ? I feel like im getting assraped by colo/stalker/sentry/mamaship.
Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor. 10+ Infestors, 10+ broodlords, 6-8 corruptors to corrupt and kill mothership. Dont ever let broodlords get in range of the mothership (9 range on vortex, 9.5 on broodlords, 7 on NP), and lay down IT spam in front of mothership before any engagement. Dont ever engage unless that IT wall is up, and you have lots of energy on infestors.
God this is answered literally 5 posts up in this same page. Use the goddamn search engine. Read my guide linked in my profile, noted in my signature, easily googeable and searchable. ><
Another question: what composition should i go for if i see a imm/sent/stralker coming ? Should i focus on massing lings and go for +1 melee ( when doing the "stephano style" roach / ling maxout ) ? I feel really lost cause i feel im playing a lot better than my opponents sometimes and still lose cause i cant engage anywhere
You should go for good macro. It doesn't matter what Toss is doing, any sort of gateway pressure from 2 base is handled by going: Mass lings, with 10-20 roaches at most. Go for any upgrade you want, I'd recommend melee, but missile and carapace have their uses too. Always set up a flank, always.
I feel like there's no reason to go Broods against Terran these days, unless I'm on Daybreak or Condemned.
The immobility is just too abusable, even in mid masters Terrans are learning to split vikings, flank, make ravens. I have had SO much more success going heavier on queens with Ultra/Ling/Bane/Infestor and transfusing the crap out of my Ultras. It literally forces so many tanks and marauders that the BL switch is finally safe.
^ I feel like there's no reason to go ultras these days against terran, especially when they make marauders so often early on.
I usually go up to 100+ drones before the 3 base push, and throw down massive amounts of spines at my 4th and elsewhere, to make sure the immobility can't be abused. Vikings aren't that good on their own unless terran makes about 20+ imo, at which point an ultra switch is quite strong. And terran can't really make ravens reactively imo, they have to start that like right when they take their third.
I really prefer ultras over broodlords in ZvT especially on very large maps because they are so much quicker.
I have been skipping infestors some games and hitting the terran with a fully upgraded attack consisting of ultras, banelings, and zerglings. Bypassing the infestors allows you to get hive quicker, upgrades faster, and leaves you more gas for banelings. You can always add them in later, but it lets you hit the terran with a massive attack earlier than if infestors had been added in. The biggest problem is defending against drops with a lack of anti air, but if you are decent at holding off drops until you get your 200/200 fully upgraded army, you can do serious damage.
On smaller maps with more chokes I much prefer broodlord.
EPT
