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On August 12 2012 10:05 poppenfrack wrote: 3 quick questions:
Is 15hatch 16pool greedy in ZvZ? I haven't really thought about it, I just do the same opening I do against Terran (15hatch, 16pool, and then 17gas), but is it more common to go 15hatch 14pool just to be safe? Edit: I like 15hatch 16pool because it lines up the first two queens perfectly.
If I don't see any gas taken at my Protoss opponent's natural (FFE), should I assume mass gateway all-in is heading my way and how do I react to that? Must I make an earlier roach den than normal? I lost to it and felt like I didn't have roach-tech available on time to deal with it.
In ZvZ, it seems to me that 15hatch into mass ling all-in is very powerful, because no other opening can match the sheer amount of larvae. Am I missing something or is this actually a viable all-in? I mean, he can block his ramp with queens but that still leaves his expansion vulnerable.
1) Yes. To put things into perspective, I just did a 10pool/18hatch against a hatch first, making only 10 lings, and flat out won the game. Killed his expo, denied mining forever. +1 roach followup just killed him. I recommend 15p/16h/17g(gas after queen!!!)
2) If there's no gas at the natural by 6:30 sac overlords into his main and if you see gateways cut drones and make a roach warren. Ling speed, no other upgrades all gas goes into roaches. If you scout 1 gas expect stargate/DTs. If you see 2 gas, expect tech heavy all-in (2x stargate,sentry/immortal, etc)
3) No. Well it's viable, but you're forgetting about queens + spines. And banelings. 2 queens and a spine shifts the tide of the battle. It's called defenders advantage They help you defend, but you can't attack with them (except dragon cleavage build roflol)
On August 12 2012 10:05 poppenfrack wrote: 3 quick questions:
Is 15hatch 16pool greedy in ZvZ? I haven't really thought about it, I just do the same opening I do against Terran (15hatch, 16pool, and then 17gas), but is it more common to go 15hatch 14pool just to be safe? Edit: I like 15hatch 16pool because it lines up the first two queens perfectly.
If I don't see any gas taken at my Protoss opponent's natural (FFE), should I assume mass gateway all-in is heading my way and how do I react to that? Must I make an earlier roach den than normal? I lost to it and felt like I didn't have roach-tech available on time to deal with it.
In ZvZ, it seems to me that 15hatch into mass ling all-in is very powerful, because no other opening can match the sheer amount of larvae. Am I missing something or is this actually a viable all-in? I mean, he can block his ramp with queens but that still leaves his expansion vulnerable.
1. No, it's perfectly fine. 16 pool, 14 pool, is really doesn't matter, map sizes allow for you to go something like 16 pool anyways, and it really won't make much difference. If you go 15h/16p or 15h/14p, you are still going to instalose to a 10 pool baneling all-in, and you can still hold a 6/7/8 pool with correct decision making. If you can make it work, it's more than fine. It's whatever you are comfortable with. Personally, I'm comfortable with 15 pool, as I think most people are (although I 10 drone scout, so if I see an opponent hatch first, I'll actually go 17g/17p in response to get ahead). If you are comfortable with 16 pool, go for it. That's really all that's important. I imagine 16 pool is probably better anyways. Only think I can imagine is maybe 1 out of 10 times you come across some form of 12+ pool timing aggression you might be a bit more stressed on 1 out of 10 maps or something... but I'm sure you'd benefit from the increased income a lot more than you face increased pressure due to the 16 pool. Just do what you are comfortable with.
2. If you see no gas at Toss' natural, you should assume that you need a 6:30 roach warren. Sac an overlord at ~7:00 into his main to see if has a ton of gateways (all-in, dont make lair and pump mass roaches asap and lings). If he only has a couple gateways, just get a couple roaches when roach warren finishes and continue droning up. (ie 6/7/8 gate vs 4 gate pressure)
3. Ling/bane isn't really viable at higher levels of play because it's just too easy to see coming, and everyone gets a baneling nest in time nowadays, and even if their bane nest is late, they'll have 2 queens to block the ramp and a spine to protect it with banes or mass lings on the way for defense. At lower levels, it can be a pain, but taht is because people dont' really play the early game right.
You should get a baneling nest ~26 supply in ZvZ, so you can handle any sort of ling/bane aggression easily. Make ~6 lings at 30+ supply, and keep 2-4 lings at home, hotkeyed, ready to be made into banes if the opponent moves out with a mass ling army.
2 queens at the ramp with a single spine makes sure the expansion is not vulnerable, as he'll just transfuse the crap out of that spine that is in range of the entirety of the hatch so you can't kill it with speedlings, and he'll have mass lings or banes on the way of his own to make sure you can't kill the hatch.
Hatch first can potentially be both very aggressive, and a very safe opening. It's why everyone does it these days, that and 15p/15h.
Well, I went from plat to mid-master in ~30 games, so thanks for all the help so far, this thread is great :D
Anyway, I really hate using openings that can cause "build-order losses". So, you say 15hatch just dies to 10pool bane? Like, 100%? I 9dronescout on 2player maps so I assume I could react in time (and switch to 14-15pool), and I just metagame on big 4player maps and 15hatch without scouting, lol. Maybe that's a bit silly.
Question: Why do some Protoss go 1gate expands? Whenever I've met it I've just spammed non-speedlings as soon as pool is done and overrun him. I don't see why they would do it instead of FFE. Are my opponents just not doing it properly and it's actually strong, or what?
Oh, and sorry if I'm asking too many questions, but I experienced my first vortex today. My 200 food broodlord army melted in a matter of seconds. I tried my best to neural his mothership and cast vortex far away from battle to use up the mothership's manapool, but all my opponent seems to need is that one good vortex and I lose my army. Should I just never engage beyond my spinewall? Thankfully for me in that particular game I was way ahead and instantly remaxed on 200 food ultra, but I doubt that's a luxury I can afford during most games.
On August 12 2012 11:24 poppenfrack wrote: Question: Why do some Protoss go 1gate expands? Whenever I've met it I've just spammed non-speedlings as soon as pool is done and overrun him. I don't see why they would do it instead of FFE. Are my opponents just not doing it properly and it's actually strong, or what?
Oh, and sorry if I'm asking too many questions, but I experienced my first vortex today. My 200 food broodlord army melted in a matter of seconds. I tried my best to neural his mothership and cast vortex far away from battle to use up the mothership's manapool, but all my opponent seems to need is that one good vortex and I lose my army. Should I just never engage beyond my spinewall? Thankfully for me in that particular game I was way ahead and instantly remaxed on 200 food ultra, but I doubt that's a luxury I can afford during most games.
I think the main reason that people are going for 1 gate expands is the earlier warpgate timings and pressure with units chronoboosted out gateways. I've been caught out a few times by this when using the standard gas timings for ZvP (3xgas at 6:30 + roach warren). I guess it would also allow a slightly earlier robo, stargate or twilight tech. I don't think that attacking with slowlings should really work against a well executed 1 gate expand, your success is probably more to do with people not being used to playing the new style (I've seen Oz and Seed both use gate expand styles). I would think that a roach/ling all in would be much better against this.
I remember when i experienced my first vortex, I cried through a whole box of tissues. Its always going to be easier to just only engage around your spine wall, but if you do engage away from it you should always spread your brood lords so they can't all be caught in a vortex. Kiting with your brood lords is also quite effective; fly them back until their attack recharges to 2 broodlings at once but take care that they dont clump up when you do this, you'll have to micro each of the small groups individually. Lastly, you can also block the pathing of archons if you do suffer the dreaded vortex; this can be done using infested terrans and bringing your uprooted crawlers with your army. Even better if you can bring overlords to drop creep and slow push towards the protoss.
A question of my own regarding 1 gate expand styles; barring some sort of roach/ling timing, what is the best way to play against these styles? Usually when I have encountered them the protoss follows it up with a big warpgate timing that hits before I have roaches or speedlings out. This is probably in part due to some macro deficiency of mine, but do I need to shift my gas timings forward a bit in reaction to the earlier warpgate tech and if so, what are good timings for this?
I dont think this has been asked before, but is there a way to make all my units go into a nydus worm/network?
let me clarify, whenever i select my units and right click the nydus network/worm, only one unit goes into it, the rest just crowd around the nydus. I wish the nydus network could function like in BW where right click and all the units go in.
Is there a way for hatcheries to rally directly units into a Nydus network?
It sounds like all of your units are crowding the nydus. I think that happens when, like, you have a ton of lings, and they surround the nydus quicker than it is loading, and then the unit that is next queued to go in, can't get in. Like if all of your units are surrounding a building nydus, and you tell them go in when it completes, instead, of, say, 1-right click on the nydus whenj your units are like somewhere else and have to run in a line to it.
Anyway, I really hate using openings that can cause "build-order losses". So, you say 15hatch just dies to 10pool bane? Like, 100%? I 9dronescout on 2player maps so I assume I could react in time (and switch to 14-15pool), and I just metagame on big 4player maps and 15hatch without scouting, lol. Maybe that's a bit silly.
That's exactly what I do (well, 10 drone scout, only time any earlier, is maybe daybreak, in which case I send the drone out after mining once more after i make overlord, so i send him out, then a split second later, it's 10 supply as I make that drone).
On 4 player maps like shakuras and condemned though, I send my overlord close air, and if it runs into an overlord, I'll send out a drone scout and he'll arrive in time to see early pools though. If I don't run into one, yea, it's a bit of a gamble, but the opponent is also going to be just as lost for 10 pooling on a 4player map (more times than not ive held 6-11 pools on condemned because they go the wrong way, nothing better than seeing 8 lings run the wrong way with the initial overlord that you redirected to another base when it didnt meet an overlord half way and they take it as that's where you spawned, or they chase your fleeing drone scout to a wrong base, haha).
Question: Why do some Protoss go 1gate expands? Whenever I've met it I've just spammed non-speedlings as soon as pool is done and overrun him. I don't see why they would do it instead of FFE. Are my opponents just not doing it properly and it's actually strong, or what?
Um, well it depends. If Toss goes the old style of 1 gate sentry expand, 4:30 nexus, 2 more gateways, he'll lose to a 14/14 speedling opening (or rather, he won't be able to take his nexus against a very conservative ~12 lings made, or single injects round's worth, otherwise making more than that actually puts you behind because toss simply goes a 3 gate sentry expand and takes it at 5:30 and you lost 6+ drones while toss only lost 100 minearls, which is a bad trade, as he shouldnt be dumb enough to let his sentries all be out in the open from a 1 gate sentry expand, and he shouldnt go 1 gate sentry expand if sees you went gas before pool, and he shouldnt have his sentries off the ramp anyways).
If Toss goes 1 gate core nexus forge, he can actually hold even a 14/14 mass speedling push. I don't know why toss didnt do this 1-2 years ago back when 1 gate expand was popular, i guess they just didnt realize how strong forge was, especially getting a quick +1 to rip apart mass ling.
It sounds like your opponents are just bad though. You shouldn't go classic 1 gate sentry expand if you probe scout gas before pool, and if you go 1 gate core nexus forge, you should easily hold. And if you are going gas after pool, then your oponents are just bad because speed wont finish in time to do damage.
Oh, and sorry if I'm asking too many questions, but I experienced my first vortex today. My 200 food broodlord army melted in a matter of seconds. I tried my best to neural his mothership and cast vortex far away from battle to use up the mothership's manapool, but all my opponent seems to need is that one good vortex and I lose my army. Should I just never engage beyond my spinewall? Thankfully for me in that particular game I was way ahead and instantly remaxed on 200 food ultra, but I doubt that's a luxury I can afford during most games.
I dont think a spinewall is that great, to be honest, i prefer to mass spines to buy time for broodlords or mass at expos so my immobile bl/infestor army doesnt get distracted from 30 zealots warping in at an expo.
But I think most pros have figured out vortex, as such:
1. Never engage if you are low energy on your 8+ infestors. Just don't, you can't win and you'll lose. 2. If you can get lucky, try to NP - it's an instawin if you can snag a mothership from someone stupid enough to keep it on the same 1a hotkey as their entire army, as you waste the vortex on his own army or wherever. 3. Corruptors are the answer.
You should make like 6+ corruptors to deal with the mothership (maybe max out on bl, spore trick out more corruptors). 6+ corruptors, especially with double ups, just take down motherships, especially with corruption, insanely fast, it's awesome. It's why I've started going air attack instead of air carapace recently in ZvP. They kill motherships so damn fast, and with all the broodlings and infested terrans, the ground army won't aggro onto the corruptors so 6 corruptors is more than enough to kill the mothership super fast as you focus fire it.
Then, simply spam IT under your broodlords (good for blinks too), so if the mothership gets near to vortex, shift+select (or hotkey) all your broodlords and retreat, so the mothership falls under heavy fire from the IT and has to back off (while the corruptors are still shooting) as you at the same time FG it to keep it away.
It's awesome. corruptors just rape motherships. ever since I found this out, ive been owning in zvp.
And in my opinion, spreading is bullshit. That's like spreading against EMP pre-EMP nerf with HT (which, toss would say, was ridiculous too). Even if you perfectly spread your broodlords, the reason you made 20 broodlords is because you needed every single one of them. If you perfectly spread, Toss vortexes the middle 1/3rd (because vortex has 5 range diameter), puts in the archons and kill all those broodlords, and then moves his entire army to engage one of the side 1/3rds of broodlords, and then your left with 1/3rd of your broodlords left. Not to mention the vortex cuts your army apart, so you have 2 small broodlord armies on their own fighting full toss force instead of them together.
Best bet is if Toss manages to get a clutch vortex off, is spam a shitton of IT around the vortex and hopefully you'll instakill the archons with the IT before the broods suffer much damage, a reason why I usually go up to as high as 12-16 infestors in ZvP. I even get +3 missiles after getting 3/3 in ZvP these days, it's very useful.
A question of my own regarding 1 gate expand styles; barring some sort of roach/ling timing, what is the best way to play against these styles? Usually when I have encountered them the protoss follows it up with a big warpgate timing that hits before I have roaches or speedlings out. This is probably in part due to some macro deficiency of mine, but do I need to shift my gas timings forward a bit in reaction to the earlier warpgate tech and if so, what are good timings for this?
Get gas, speed before third (take off after speed), then take third. Proceed as normal as vs a 1/3gate sentry expand or FFE depending on how exactly toss timed his core and nexus. Ie, probably need a roach warren ~50 supply along with 2nd gas, scout gas count at natural and see his army count (lots of sentries? or no gateway units) and sac an overlord after core is done for a bit to see what Toss' folow up is.
ZvZ, standard roach/hydra/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor game. You got 4 bases, hive done, 3/3 done.
Do you go for Ultras? Or just more roach/hydra/infestor?
I know that broodlords aren't a good choice - the opponent just gets corruptors and beats them very cost efficiently (and doesnt overmake them, nor undermake them, though not hard to do with how fragile broods are and corruption being so awesome), and roach counterattacks will just rape you.
But do you think going for ultras are a good idea?
I've been having some ZvZ where I just go roach/hydra/infestor and win with whatever eventually. Then, I've had some games where it's a bit more passive, as the opponent masses spines or broodlords, so I'll add ultras.
I'm wondering if, that when you play a roach/hydra/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor game, the goal should be teching to roach/hydra/infestor/ultra and then eventually just pure ultra/ling/infestor as you replace roach/hydra with ultras. I mean, Ultra/infestor is so goddamn supply efficient, you will just beat any army, especially if you add corruptor support for any broodlords. I know I've said in the past the ultimate goal in ZvZ is pure broodlord/corruptor with only 1-2 infestors, but I'm starting to think ultra/infestor/corruptor would beat it, the ultras are so supply efficient, as are corruptors and infestors, so if the opponent went like mass broodlord, youd just make like 10 corruptors to overpower his and then go on with ultras, or whatever, only need a few with infestor support to beat any roaches or infestors that would be left).
On August 12 2012 17:43 Belial88 wrote: I got a question.
ZvZ, standard roach/hydra/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor game. You got 4 bases, hive done, 3/3 done.
Do you go for Ultras? Or just more roach/hydra/infestor?
I know that broodlords aren't a good choice - the opponent just gets corruptors and beats them very cost efficiently (and doesnt overmake them, nor undermake them, though not hard to do with how fragile broods are and corruption being so awesome), and roach counterattacks will just rape you.
But do you think going for ultras are a good idea?
I've been having some ZvZ where I just go roach/hydra/infestor and win with whatever eventually. Then, I've had some games where it's a bit more passive, as the opponent masses spines or broodlords, so I'll add ultras.
I'm wondering if, that when you play a roach/hydra/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor game, the goal should be teching to roach/hydra/infestor/ultra and then eventually just pure ultra/ling/infestor as you replace roach/hydra with ultras. I mean, Ultra/infestor is so goddamn supply efficient, you will just beat any army, especially if you add corruptor support for any broodlords. I know I've said in the past the ultimate goal in ZvZ is pure broodlord/corruptor with only 1-2 infestors, but I'm starting to think ultra/infestor/corruptor would beat it, the ultras are so supply efficient, as are corruptors and infestors, so if the opponent went like mass broodlord, youd just make like 10 corruptors to overpower his and then go on with ultras, or whatever, only need a few with infestor support to beat any roaches or infestors that would be left).
This is a pretty uncommon scenario, at least from my experience. 90% of the time roach/hydra/infestor battles end before you get to 3/3 and hive. Now what if it gets to that stage? As you said it pretty much only happens when your opponent is extremely passive and turtles with mass spines. I dont think adding ultras in this situation is a smart choice, they might be very cost efficient vs roach infestor but if they have extra 10+ spines its gonna be impossible to break anyway. This is, I think, the reason why most pros tend to go for bl tech instead of ultras (and its not that easy to counter them with corruptors if your opponent has some hydras in the mix).
On August 12 2012 21:11 tehcaekftw wrote: If i want to go mutas when i scout Robos in ZvP, around what minutemark should i get the spire, and what else should i rely on for that?
What about ZvZ? Mass mutas seem pretty effective because i can never get up infestation pit and then get them out before mutas hit.
For muta-play, the timing of the spire is not necessarily important. If you tech too quickly, you won't have enough Mutas to kill off the initial stalkers and sentries. However, if you think about it, the longer you wait means the more money the Protoss will invest in robo-tech. (colossus/immortals) This also means you will have more time to build up an overwhelming flock of Mutalisks. Just make sure you have enough gas stockpiled and time your spire accordingly.
Well there would be some general timing.. my timings are just off to defend certain stuff, like mass mutas ZvZ. I usually use infestors but i think im getting them too late to defend mutas. When is it a good idea to scout for Spire and should i react byg getting infestors or hydras or even.. both?
This is a pretty uncommon scenario, at least from my experience. 90% of the time roach/hydra/infestor battles end before you get to 3/3 and hive. Now what if it gets to that stage? As you said it pretty much only happens when your opponent is extremely passive and turtles with mass spines. I dont think adding ultras in this situation is a smart choice, they might be very cost efficient vs roach infestor but if they have extra 10+ spines its gonna be impossible to break anyway. This is, I think, the reason why most pros tend to go for bl tech instead of ultras (and its not that easy to counter them with corruptors if your opponent has some hydras in the mix).
I've never seen pros get broodlord tech in a roach/hydra/nfestor vs roach/hydra/infestor zvz.
I see pros on 4-5 bases with constant roach/hydra/infestor aggression for 20 minutes, and usually breaking one another by some point, but sometimes, it goes long enough that they could possibly get ultras. I see hive 3/3 a lot in zvz roach/hydra games.
tehcaek - hold initial muta harass with spores/queens, while droning up. get infestors, not hydras. get hydras to complement a roach based army vs a roach based army. You get your spire when you know you are safe from any 2 base gateway aggression, meaning you made mass lings and have roach tech available that you can make if toss is happening to move out (dont make roaches until toss moves out or you know he's going to attack instead of expand, unless you want to be aggressive). generally, around 10:00+. if you do it as a response to rob openings, get it as soon as possible, and dont make a roach warren, evo chamber, etc if you can help it, to make it quicker.
On August 11 2012 20:18 eXeel wrote: I heard about the "scroll casting of infested terrans" a while ago, but then someone said it was a bug and got removed. Now I saw Catz do it in the NASL Gauntlet (said the commentators). Can you still do it, is it bug abuse or not, and how do I do it (if it is an accepted method)?
Its not a bug per se its just something that many people feel should not be in the game. All it is is binding the IT spell to your mouse wheel in your normal hotkey settings in game. I don't believe it has been removed from the game (but can't check right now) and if it is in the game by default most tournaments will allow it.
This is a pretty uncommon scenario, at least from my experience. 90% of the time roach/hydra/infestor battles end before you get to 3/3 and hive. Now what if it gets to that stage? As you said it pretty much only happens when your opponent is extremely passive and turtles with mass spines. I dont think adding ultras in this situation is a smart choice, they might be very cost efficient vs roach infestor but if they have extra 10+ spines its gonna be impossible to break anyway. This is, I think, the reason why most pros tend to go for bl tech instead of ultras (and its not that easy to counter them with corruptors if your opponent has some hydras in the mix).
I've never seen pros get broodlord tech in a roach/hydra/nfestor vs roach/hydra/infestor zvz.
I see pros on 4-5 bases with constant roach/hydra/infestor aggression for 20 minutes, and usually breaking one another by some point, but sometimes, it goes long enough that they could possibly get ultras. I see hive 3/3 a lot in zvz roach/hydra games.
tehcaek - hold initial muta harass with spores/queens, while droning up. get infestors, not hydras. get hydras to complement a roach based army vs a roach based army. You get your spire when you know you are safe from any 2 base gateway aggression, meaning you made mass lings and have roach tech available that you can make if toss is happening to move out (dont make roaches until toss moves out or you know he's going to attack instead of expand, unless you want to be aggressive). generally, around 10:00+. if you do it as a response to rob openings, get it as soon as possible, and dont make a roach warren, evo chamber, etc if you can help it, to make it quicker.
Strange, it happens from time to time, heres a recent game I remember I am sure there are games where you reach hive for 3/3 upgs but if its a non stop battle there is no time for ultras and if its a turtle war then bl tech is superior
OK, so I'm still losing to the immo/sentry all-ins. Even if I get mutas on time, muta/speedling kills maybe one unit before everything dies, so I assume I'm meant to baserace, but how viable is that? I can't deal with his army so going baserace just seems like a way to delay the inevitable.
I assumed speedlings + mutas would be good against a sentry/immo-heavy composition T_T
Replays please! Not sure what league, but low masters and lower you can actually kill his army with 15 fast mutas + 40-50 lings as he warps in the first or second time. You may lose your third, but you'll win the game.
If you're higher league, basetrading is really the only option. Just mass 20 spines in your natural, and run to his base with muta/ling. Break down the wall, you MUST snipe at least 1 nexus and a bunch of probes. However, if you do, you've won the game. It's 2base vs 1, but you have 20 spines and 15-20 mutas You'll manage to kill a lot of his stuff, most likely winning the game then and there.
On August 13 2012 02:24 poppenfrack wrote: OK, so I'm still losing to the immo/sentry all-ins. Even if I get mutas on time, muta/speedling kills maybe one unit before everything dies, so I assume I'm meant to baserace, but how viable is that? I can't deal with his army so going baserace just seems like a way to delay the inevitable.
I assumed speedlings + mutas would be good against a sentry/immo-heavy composition T_T
I don't like Mutalisks against immo-sentry because you can't have a basewrecking amount out by the time they reach your base. Mutalisks usually win in a baserace situation but not when you can only get about 10 out while skimping on every other unit bar Zerglings. Maybe against immo-sentry expands they would be nice, but even then a later huge timing attack should take you out.
I like to get out a really fast baneling drop composition, but that almost requires a gas before 5:00 and going lair first otherwise the tech isn't out in time for the fastest possible immo-sentry timing attack. When you're going for a regular double gas at 6:00 you can really only rely on roach/ling with huge flanks, with infestors trickled in for later pushes. You just need a huge flank attacking from all sides really, and in some maps, you're just outa luck for those ( the area behind the fourth base leading to your third in cloud kingdom for example ).
I have a hard time knowing when protoss is going to all-in or push, or take an expansion. Both require very different responses (right?).
If i scout the toss base with an overlord i might see some gates and a robo. Naturally (because its ladder) i assume its a 2base robo all-in and start pumping roach/ling, but then he might just expand at 9-10minutes and if i attack his third with what i have its a bit risky as i might not break it.
Are there any clues that tell you toss is thinking of taking a third rather than 2basing?
sry if is a noob question: How fast are the pros to reach 200/200 if the opponent doesnt make pressure and without roaches in ZvT? An opening that you build the 3rd at ~6:30. I reached 200/200 at 14:00 with mass lings and ~15 infestors, 2-2 upgrades on the way (Stephano style) and i feel my macro is pretty slow/bad.
EPT
They help you defend, but you can't attack with them (except dragon cleavage build roflol)
