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Would this protect me from a cannon rush with a 10 forge as opposed to the more standard 13-14 forge i see in most games?
Yes, he won't have money for a pylon block at 16 with a 10 forge, and when he does, it will still be the same timing of ~17.
Hey guys Plat. Zerg here lately I have been losing a lot of TvZ to the stupidest thing...Straight marine medivac with stim. Even with infestors, broods, lings, banelings and baneling mines. They always seem to scan right on my mines or even if i completely kill them they are able to remax insanely quickly. Advice?
Sounds like a macro problem. Work on injects. Have to see a rep to really know what you are tlaking about...You should be insanely cost effective against straight marine with ling/bane/infestor. You probalby don't have enough drones, which is why you are getting overrun, or you aren't injecting/spending money. Pure marine can be a lot of aggression, so you have to be careful not to tech too quickly if the opponent is basically doing a bio all-in
Hey guys, mid-high masters zerg here who has recently been struggling ZvP vs 2 base all ins
+1 4 gate into a 7/8 gate blink has been giving me the most trouble, so I was thinking of getting baneling drop pretty fast to help deal with it. I would like to ask a couple things of the community; what are your ways of dealing with a fast +1 4gate into 7 gate blink, and what time does the +1 4 gate--> 7 gate blink hit? (I need to know the timings for timing out the baneling drop tech)
I just had this game, and I lost, and I don't know why.
Shakuras Platuea, 1k Masters.
So the opponent goes roach/ling all-in in the early game, except he doesn't completely commit to it, but it's still an all-in, I made he made a ton of roaches, no third no lair (he gets lair and goes 2 base roach/infestor after his attack fails, he starts lair when pushing out). I hold it, don't take any damage, and I believe I'm ahead at this time.
Seeing as mutas are great when ahead, I went mutas. I normally go 2 base ling/infestor into 3 base hive, but Shakuras is pretty brutal to do that on, and because he made so many roaches I figure I'll just play it safe, and go the same thing, roaches, and beat him with the huge lead I'll have.
I force a cancel on his third when it's almost done, I lose some lings... not sure if worth it, I think it was, I get my own third up. He gets infestor tech, while massing more roaches. I get supply blocked when spire finishes, really hurt, but it wasn't a timing issue so it's fine (it's not like he attacked and my mutas weren't out, it was that I made the mutas, somewhat late). I use the mutas to kill his roaches, allll the way from his base, but he has so many roaches I guess that it just doesn't work. I didn't make more drones or drone up my third or anything, I'm not sure why I lost. I guess if I made more mutas and spines, I could have held possibly? I'm not sure... I mean the whole point of going mutas is to take your third, so I'm thinking taking my third wasn't a mistake here, especially when he took his. I was trying to transition back into roaches because I knew the opponent was getting infestors and I was going to play it safe, but I just die before that happens.
So yea... need some help on this one.
as to the purpose of mutas (in zvz):
i have always viewed them as a tool to GET ahead in zvz by making sure that your third is before theirs, not as a way to STAY ahead. i find that once you have gained a lead by mutas, the proper answer is to be safe and carefully scout what your opponent is doing. you need to protect the lead the mutas have given you by transitioning into roach infestor or something else complemented by spines. you do not want to stay on mutas as they deal little damage and take alot. if it matters this is coming from 1200 point master who uses mutas EVERY zvz.
p.s. - wow i never thought i'd be giving advice to belial lol
I just had this game, and I lost, and I don't know why.
Shakuras Platuea, 1k Masters.
So the opponent goes roach/ling all-in in the early game, except he doesn't completely commit to it, but it's still an all-in, I made he made a ton of roaches, no third no lair (he gets lair and goes 2 base roach/infestor after his attack fails, he starts lair when pushing out). I hold it, don't take any damage, and I believe I'm ahead at this time.
Seeing as mutas are great when ahead, I went mutas. I normally go 2 base ling/infestor into 3 base hive, but Shakuras is pretty brutal to do that on, and because he made so many roaches I figure I'll just play it safe, and go the same thing, roaches, and beat him with the huge lead I'll have.
I force a cancel on his third when it's almost done, I lose some lings... not sure if worth it, I think it was, I get my own third up. He gets infestor tech, while massing more roaches. I get supply blocked when spire finishes, really hurt, but it wasn't a timing issue so it's fine (it's not like he attacked and my mutas weren't out, it was that I made the mutas, somewhat late). I use the mutas to kill his roaches, allll the way from his base, but he has so many roaches I guess that it just doesn't work. I didn't make more drones or drone up my third or anything, I'm not sure why I lost. I guess if I made more mutas and spines, I could have held possibly? I'm not sure... I mean the whole point of going mutas is to take your third, so I'm thinking taking my third wasn't a mistake here, especially when he took his. I was trying to transition back into roaches because I knew the opponent was getting infestors and I was going to play it safe, but I just die before that happens.
So yea... need some help on this one.
I will watch the rep later due to my timeschedule, but I can squeeze in some advice.
Mutabuilds off of two bases aren't to get your third, they are to deny the opponents third over and over so that yours can be up sooner. Even if he has infestors out, just spread out your mutalisks and go attack that third again. As long as you can deny that third a lot before yours, you will be amazingly ahead if he allows you to drone. You will also need a macro hatchery up after that third if you want that base insta-saturated or a large inflow of extra units to defend a large push. The best way to defend that kind of Infestor-Roach army as a mutalisk player is just to go for mass double upgraded roaches yourself and go for a big concave. Always when engaging spread out your mutalisks and go straight for the Infestors, milk out those fungals, and your more cost-efficient roaches should mop him up.
I know this advice is pretty basic but I'll edit later once I took a thorough look at the replay.
:: EDIT ::
Alright, so I have a lot of questions about the spinecrawler migration, whhyyyyyyy?
So you moved your Spinecrawlers down the ramp with your Zerglings to... gain 5 extra feet to move around? Why not just keep those spines there and be defended rather than doing such a risky move to get slightly more ground that frankly doesn't matter all that much aside from creep spread.
Afterwards, you got the carapace upgrade, the range upgrade and the roach speed upgrade up during muta production. Those upgrades don't finish fast enough to beat his if he started them and they certainly won't help your mutalisks. You'll only start up roach production after your third base is fully saturated anyway because mutalisks will simply turn any attack into an all in because nothing hits them.
You decided to move over the spinecrawlers that were defending your most vulnerable and valuable location, the ramp to your natural, over to your new third, which was barely mining yet. Keep the spinecrawlers at your natural and suddenly you can bee-line your mutalisks to his third and take it out every time without having to worry about the counter attack. If he does counter attack, you can easily kill it from above while the spinecrawlers damage the roaches as they try to run by.
The reason you should generally put down a macro hatchery straight away after the third is so you can sustain losses more easily. After all, if he runs into your main and kills off a lot of drones, but he lost his whole army and you can simply pump drones rediculously to get your economy back, you can both instantly saturate your third if he doesn't attack, and refill the drones when he does.
Those were the major decision making mistakes, notsomuch the mechanics.
On August 09 2012 23:52 roym899 wrote: Hey, I wonder whichtactic is the better on Cloud Kingdom ZvP. I just can't win this MU on this map anymore. (I'm low masters) Mutalisk are just so weak on this map because there is pretty much no air space near the Toss base to fly away. And Infestor / Spine turtle style doesn't seems to be very good either. I try to build the spine wall, but it's at the low ground at my 4th and so toss can easily kill it from above and then win.
So what should I go for on this map? (if it goes into a macro game)
Day[9] Daily #484 features DRG's muta/ling/bling ZvP specifically on a cloud kingdom against HerO, based on that I wouldn't conclude that mutas are not viable on that map. Personally, I sort of feel that doing actual economic damage with your mutalisks is not as important in ZvP but rather in threatening counter attack while you transition to hive. Though I would not place too much weight on my opinion, watch DRG's game.
If that is not your cup of tea I would say that I have found in my own experience that spreading creep to the high ground above the 4th is really important on cloud kingdom, not only for vision but if you manage to get spines up there they seem a lot more effective.
Yesterday I played a zvt. He opened very aggressively with hellions, and got into my base several times. I tend to open 6 queens (think I had 4 when the first hellions ran in), so I usually skip the spine. He then transitioned into mech, and I died. I think the major issue was my bad eco (lost a lot of drones, and did a poor job of remaking).
What are good ways of dealing with hellion runbys?
On August 10 2012 15:54 elemental523 wrote: Hey guys Plat. Zerg here lately I have been losing a lot of TvZ to the stupidest thing...Straight marine medivac with stim. Even with infestors, broods, lings, banelings and baneling mines. They always seem to scan right on my mines or even if i completely kill them they are able to remax insanely quickly. Advice?
Maybe you're trying too hard? It's hard to really assess what your issue is, but you dont need all those units for just marines and medivacs. Is it a particular timing you're dying from? Like a two base Quantic.Illusion style moveout, or just a general difficulty with these units?
One thing that I can think of is upgrades. 3/3 marines with medivacs are always scary, but if you are behind in upgrades they become downright terrifying. I played ling bling muta all the way into masters as I went through the ladder. Mutas may seem counter intuitive but if you can keep a small pack alive all game it becomes much harder for terran to successfully drop. Above all though, just focus on hitting your injects, and infestor micro. upgraded lings with infestor support should do just fine against just bio.
If you see a lot of hellions coming across the map you can actually wall off completely with evo chambers if you are completely unprepared. It seems like an odd thing to do but it has saved me a few times.
On August 10 2012 19:27 gronnelg wrote: Yesterday I played a zvt. He opened very aggressively with hellions, and got into my base several times. I tend to open 6 queens (think I had 4 when the first hellions ran in), so I usually skip the spine. He then transitioned into mech, and I died. I think the major issue was my bad eco (lost a lot of drones, and did a poor job of remaking).
What are good ways of dealing with hellion runbys?
Helion runbys are actually very annoying and not as easy to deal with as terrans think (omg imba queen range). It takes ages for queens to kill the helions while drones get 1 shoted. Few tips that might help you deal with em: 1. Watch for the terran expansion timing. 1 rax cc gets it around 3-3.20, 1rax+gas is something around 4min. Terran getting gas before expansion is more likely to try helion runbys since he gets the factory 1 min earlier so I'd suggest you to put the spine at 5 min in this scenario. 2. If you suspect the runby keep your queens close to the ramp at natural, if you manage to block it and transer drones to your main you are safe. 3. Try to narrow the chokes with your building placement 4. Keep a small pack of lings (4-6) in your base 5. If helions get to your mineral line dont try to transfer the drones, instead split em and try to block the helions. Its pretty hard but if you do it right it helps a ton to minimalize dmg.
On August 09 2012 23:52 roym899 wrote: Hey, I wonder whichtactic is the better on Cloud Kingdom ZvP. I just can't win this MU on this map anymore. (I'm low masters) Mutalisk are just so weak on this map because there is pretty much no air space near the Toss base to fly away. And Infestor / Spine turtle style doesn't seems to be very good either. I try to build the spine wall, but it's at the low ground at my 4th and so toss can easily kill it from above and then win.
So what should I go for on this map? (if it goes into a macro game)
C'mon anyone?
Cloud kingdom is tough and I know for a fact someone will have more insight in this MU than I do. But for the sake of discussion and learning I'll try to share my thoughts on ZvP cloudkingdom.
I dont use mutas that much in zvp, but cloud kingdom is definitely a map i'd forego mutas on. The natural three bases are just to easily defended. Maybe consider mutas if you get obnoxiously far ahead early game through probe kills or something. Other than that I'd save the mutas for big maps with spread out expansions.
spine/infestor turtle can definitely work, but you definitely need more spines given the amount of attack paths once you open up to 4 bases. Assuming your creep spread is okay, you can spine up at the base of the ramp at your fourth, and all around the base closest to your natural. I'm not sure if this is generally considered the way to play ZvP on cloud kingdom but i've had reasonable success with this. As long as your macro is okay and well timed this strategy works in mid-masters. -note--dont put the spines too close to the high ground. If your corrupters are out when they should be you can keep the colossus off the spines. If he blinks forward with stalkers punish with fungals.
Some other aspects of the map to consider -Toss like a quick third here, consider some sort of three base roach/ling timings. Once you're saturated on three base dont be afraid to start pressuring the tosses third. Keep the path into the natural in mind. At the very least you will keep the toss on his side of the map and focused on killing the immediate threat of roaches. I'm sure you've seen stephano win with this before. It wont always win the game but it almost always does damage. As always try to snipe off sentries when you can, and segment the toss army as much as possible. Send lings into main and nat if you open door with roaches, etc. I like doing this because it drastically reduces the power of tosses eventual push. WIth a diminished sentry count and overall lowered army supply the protoss will have to carefully consider any attacks through the mid game.
-The cliff above the fourth base. This is something I love to hit at least once in every ZvP on the map. There's a few ways to do this of course. The general gist of it is fungal or infested terran bomb from the cliff if you have the energy for it. Bonus points for using burrow to sneak in and out. A great trick to use when economically behind.
-Watch the corner bases. A protoss can easily cannon up snug in those corners. Once the toss establish that base it can be very hard to dig them out of it. If you take the side bases be sure to add plenty of spines and a spore, consider bringing your queen from third for transfuse on spines when toss starts throwing zealots at it late game. In addition if you do try muta play on cloud kingdom taking both corner bases as your 4th and 5th will be something worth trying.
So, if I just do the 'standard' 3hatch play in ZvP, at what point can I go mutalisks then? As soon as I see him plant down a 3rd? Earlier than that? As soon as I see a robo? I imagine mutalisks can take on the immo/sentry all-in head-on along with some zerglings, I mean he won't have many stalkers, and if nothing else I can snipe sentries with mutas. I'm not sure if what Belial88 talked about was all for the nestea-style or not.
Also, what if it's a ZvP on a 4player map and I just get bad luck and don't scout him with any overlords? Like, if I have to play completely blind as far as his gas-count goes etc. what do I do?
On August 09 2012 21:21 poppenfrack wrote: How viable are ultralisks in ZvP? It seems I never see any, but I'm curious as to why.
Lastly, what zerg player(s) would you recommend me to 'study'? I want solid macro-oriented play. I'll need to find some replays to learn some specific builds for the different matchups, and I'd prefer players of whom I can find replays, because I just can't learn much from watching a VoD.
Ultralisks are not that much used in ZvP since you never uppgrades melee attack upgrade when playing zvz, and 0-0 or 0-3 ultras are not that good of an investment. You need banelings and infestors as well and you dont have the gas, want to spend the gas or have the upgrades to do it. Broods are just a much better choice overall.
On August 09 2012 21:21 poppenfrack wrote: How viable are ultralisks in ZvP? It seems I never see any, but I'm curious as to why.
Lastly, what zerg player(s) would you recommend me to 'study'? I want solid macro-oriented play. I'll need to find some replays to learn some specific builds for the different matchups, and I'd prefer players of whom I can find replays, because I just can't learn much from watching a VoD.
Ultralisks are not that much used in ZvP since you never uppgrades melee attack upgrade when playing zvz, and 0-0 or 0-3 ultras are not that good of an investment. You need banelings and infestors as well and you dont have the gas, want to spend the gas or have the upgrades to do it. Broods are just a much better choice overall.
Stephano, that the only one you really need.
I won quite a few games out of ultralisk in ZvP but i admit i went ling/banes into mutas (10 for harass and pin them in their base) to infestors and ultras. Since you get melee for lings and banes when your chitanous plating finishes your almost done with your 3/3. It's a style that i love playing, and quite strong if the opponent goes for a heavy stalker ball (which is what you typically see after muta play). They are not useless in ZvP but it's very situational as zealot deals quite okay with them... Make sure you have chitanous and 3/3 before you engage. If you are forced into a fight with chitanous and 2/2... it's ok but stall for 3/3 if possible.
On August 10 2012 03:35 Mavvie wrote: Hey guys, I have trouble doing shit against Terran lategame. Even if I have a HUGE lead to the point where I couldn't possibly lose, it still ends up being a 45 minute close game with base snipes and vikings tearing apart my BLs. I typically end up winning anyways, because nobody has good micro even at top diamond level, but I feel that I can never close a game. I like going ultras first because I'm more used to the ultra/bane/ling/infestor army comp and playstyle, but listening to Belial's arguement for broods I tried them out. I didn't attack as early as I should've, but still...Even without the surprise viking count, the stimmed marines could've easily walked over my "unbeatable" army.
My ultras helped me regain map control and dominance of the game, then I switched back to corruptor/broodlord/infestor with ~100 lings for mobility. I felt that THAT worked well, but you never hear people talk about corruptor/infestor/broodlord with lings. It's usually just infestor/broodlord that they complain about. Do you guys usually get lots of lings or roaches to buffer for your broodlord/infestor?
I know I didn't play too well, but I went for some roach/ling/bane pressure and was greeted by a free army to kill, so I felt I was ahead and no need to do a baneling bust. Hellions killed some drones, I didn't really care. I had 4 hatcheries and no need to produce anything other than drones. The biggest mistake of the game, IMO, was a hotkey failure resulting in me losing ~11 mutas to a few thor/viking. Ooops ^^
I started off with a bunch of broodlords, Terran held easily. I switched to infestor/ultra/ling/bane and rolled his army, killinga base or two. He eventually held, and I switched back to infestor/broodlord/corruptor. I got mad at the immobility so I made 100 lings, and was able to stop drops while still attacking his front. A combination of him finally being mined out (fuck, Terrans don't give up until you kill their last unit and they have 0 minerals) and not having enough vikings resulted in me FINALLY winning, but if you watch the replay, I was quite ahead. How do I finish out a game when I'm so far ahead? I destroyed his 2 base timing with ease, and he didn't take a third until super late. This is worse than ZvP for trying to kill a turtle! 40 minute game that should've been 10.
Thanks everbody!
Edit: Okay, another ZvT. This time I didn't have the game won by the 10:00 mark and got literally crushed in the lategame. Am I meant to turtle with infestor/broodlord until I'm at 200/200 and he's maxed on vikings? I feel it's a timing so I attack right when it's done, and I only killed his army and a few workers. How do you make this unit comp work? I understand it in ZvP, because they don't have vikings and tanks.
I lost too many units when trying to bust him, but I didn't lose the game there. I went into the lategame with fast tech/upgrades and a decent eco. I am tempted to just go ultra/bane haha
Only looked at the 2nd replay since its the game you lost. Obviously the roach ling bust was very bad, this needs a few banes to work but as you said you didnt lose the game there. Main problem was that after the attack you start to float a lot on resources. You got a lot of larva available 3k/1k resources but you dont make any units for some reason. Also your infestation pit should have been way earlier, you had the resources for it. Because of this the terran push at 15 min kills your third and denies any mining from your 4th. From this point on terran is leading in economy which is never a good sign for zerg. The final push you make looks like a close battle only because the terran lets you get all his bio with fungals, otherwise it would have been an easy win for him. Anyway after the initial battle you are left with 5 broodlords 4 infestors and 10 corruptors, thats just not enough to overwhelm the camping terran and his reinforcing units (and you had a huge bank that should have been used immediately). If you want this composition to work you want have a good amount of bl/infestor/ling when the initial attack starts and quickly reinforce it with corruptors/lings to overrun the terran.
I messed up the roach/ling/bane bust, I ALWAYS forget the 27 gas, so I take a late double gas and hit a minute late, missing the effective timing Watching the replay again, wow I totally botched the post-attack. If I had morphed banes I would've won, especially with a 3base followup because I had double evos + a big wave of drones for my third. Upon more analysis, I FORGOT MUTAS LOL. I didn't throw down an infestation pit because I was saving for 10-15 mutas to buy time for hive tech I think if I played just a little bit better that game would've been mine. Pretty huge improvement by me, I was gold a few weeks ago, now top diamond facing mid masters :O
On August 09 2012 23:52 roym899 wrote: Hey, I wonder whichtactic is the better on Cloud Kingdom ZvP. I just can't win this MU on this map anymore. (I'm low masters) Mutalisk are just so weak on this map because there is pretty much no air space near the Toss base to fly away. And Infestor / Spine turtle style doesn't seems to be very good either. I try to build the spine wall, but it's at the low ground at my 4th and so toss can easily kill it from above and then win.
So what should I go for on this map? (if it goes into a macro game)
C'mon anyone?
stephano vs hero on cloud @ NASL s3 grand finals, ro8
Cloud is my absolute favorite map in the ladder pool, because you have so many ways to mess with the toss third. Using roach ling to constantly contest the third off +1 missile and roach speed, it becomes a losing war of attrtion for protoss unless they dedicate a lot to immortal or colossus tech.
First, mutas suck here and you don't want them unless you've scouted an immortal sentry all-in and want to play the nestea counter to it.
Second, spine turtle is bad on most maps, because there's always a second way into your third, and you always have a third. Build spines if you need, but don't fast tech to infestors, you're asking to die. You need roach ling, as a general rule.
So go for roach ling, then add infestors once you've ruled out a two-base all-in. Usually I end up contesting the toss third using roach ling from the outside edge (as opposed to the ramp), as stephano does in the game above, while taking my fourth and adding the infestation pit. If he loses the third, I delay droning the fourth because he will likely attack, and I've just traded some units for a nexus. If I can't delay the third, I drone up aggressively to try to win the race to saturation, and immediately go to 8 gas as well as add a fifth base in the corner.
Basically, my impression is that you are relying on lair tech as your core army, instead of as support for an imba roach ling army. And that ends up getting you killed more often than not.
p.s. There's another good NASL s3 grand finals game on cloud where I think ret holds off a nice 2base blink thing, probably worth a watch as well. You'll start to see how it's a lot about sticking to roach-ling until you have enough to be safe, and how roach ling kicks toss around on cloud when you flank or put on heavy anti-third aggression.
On August 07 2012 17:55 AndySCWilson wrote: I have a replay(s) request -
I'm having a lot of trouble successfully maneuvering my way through the late-game vs Terran but especially with Protoss - I feel like I get stuck on roaches for too long and am often steamrolled. But when that isn't the case I get very lost on when and how to proceed to BL's this is especially the case vs Protoss because I rarely know when to put up spines or how to put them up properly, further more I don't know how to prioritize my upgrades and in general don't know how to effectively spend my gas (ie what portion of gas goes towards what, and when) I also am lost on when to take my 4th (need gases 7-8) without dying. This often leads to me getting my 4th badly, and thus being gas starved.
I have fewer issues vs Terran because I can go ultras at hive and then comfortable get to BL's, I also don't have to spine up - and there's always some sort of back and forth vs Terran throughout the midgame, and I can usually navigate each game individually.
I frequently lose on Splateau and Entombed Valley (unless Toss does some all in that I can shut down with roaches).
So my request is this - can someone please provide replays (preferably several) on these maps where BL/Infestor is used to good effect? I feel like I need to just sit down and take notes on several games. Also any advice would be much appreciated.
-Andy
Not sure if you got good replays or not, but here's one from playing vs my friend. He is highly outmatched by me, but I think I demonstrate the "optimal" lategame very well, apart from forgetting my spire when I started my hive...small mistakes!
Replay Note that I transition into ling/roach/infestor, get spines set up, then get corruptors and broodlords ASAP. When engaging, broods lead, fungals land, and ONLY if he's in range of your broodlords/infestors should you engage with the roach/ling.
EPT
