EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 344
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Felvo
United States124 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
^Could toss be faking a third before heading out with whatever all in? (placing a pylon@3rd and clearing any ling scouts, and then heading to my bases) or does that take up too much time for toss? It would take up WAY too much time for Toss... Toss needs to push out at by 9:30 at the latest, for whatever all-in they are doing (the latest and 'strongest' in terms of brute force being immortal/sentry, which pushes out at about 9:15-9:20 usually), and then arrive by 10:30. If they arrive at 11:00+, Zerg will be maxed out on roach/ling, and will just easily crush it. Zerg starts to 'overpower' Toss by around 11:00+, which is when Toss is suddenly the defensive one in the game. Besides, you will see him move out well in advance. by having the watch towers, an overlord by his natural, a ling in front of his base, if you see him move out, then he's obviously all-inning. Toss can't really move out and take his third at the same time, or else 20 speedlings will just force a cancel. If toss takes his third later than 10:00, he won't really have a chance to win the game anymore because he will be too far behind and the broodlords will all be out before he can hit with a 3+ colossus 3 base timing before hive OR he won't have mothership/4th base in time. Think of it this way - if Toss does a 4 gate, but instead of pushing out, waits 30 seconds to put down a pylon, you'll still see him move out with his 4 gate army, and you can prepare just the same, now with a stronger econ/tech so you'll hold just the same, and his push will be too late to do damage anyways, as the timings will pass. I would strongly recommend you read my Overlord guide that I linked above, as I say in the guide, I send my 26 overlord to Toss' third to spot for quick thirds, and it arrives in more than enough time to see 6:00 thirds. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On August 08 2012 15:11 Belial88 wrote: I'm going to post this here instead of making my own thread. it's about a game I won (though I could pull a game I lost too, but I dont think its a perfect example). I can't make ultras work in ZvT. Every time I try to go ultras in ZvT, they get raped, and I just refill on lings and usually hold the push with that instead and eventually go broods. I don't see the point in going ultras when you can just go broodlords. I see the merit in Ultras if terran makes enough vikings to counter a pure broodlord army, like 20+ vikings, or goes air like ravens. But I never seem to make ultras work in the whole get-ultras-before-broodlords-as-a-safer-tech-choice-and-way-to-buy-time-for-broodlords like you can do in ZvP or ZvZ. http://drop.sc/235426 I went less-than-15 mutas double evo into fast hive, ultras. I thought especially ultras would be strong because I saw terran going marine/tank instead of bio. The ultras get erased in an engagement I thought I played on level ground, on creep. Boy oh boy... you did not have chitinous plating. For any of the fights with ultras (you started it at like 22:00? so it finished after you had the first few BLs finished at 23:00ish, iirc). Chitinous plating is like ling speed, it's the difference between useless and deadly. Beyond that, your first fight was way too light on aoe. You need more banes or infestors or preferably both. You max out and you have 2k/1k, why are you not dumping it into banes? You have so little aoe that I was stunned that you decided to engage. I keep saying, ultras not for damage. Don't treat them as aoe damage, they're not on the same tier as fungal or banes. They're just the wall between marine dps and banes. Also, you run in with lings up front in the first fight. Yeah, I know I said use some lings up front to soak tank shots. But you have 90% of your lings in front of the ultras, so they melted to the marines (tanks were in front, he ran away), then you had no dps, just ultras, and had to fall back to your fourth. Ultras by themselves are worse than infestors by themselves. Try the flanking stuff that chaos mentioned. It's helpful because marines can't split against banes/fungal, but to get the full benefit, you'll need more banes or fungal. It will help no matter how little you have, though. So, get chitinous plating ASAP. And you need more aoe. And have ultras chase marines. Think of it like zvp, where lings should chase stalkers/immortals while dodging zealots, except now you want ultras chasing marines, while dodging tanks. | ||
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enykie
Germany64 Posts
Newly, i see some Zergs doing 3 Hatch Builds with earlier lingspeed into Muta/Ling to deny their 3rd (or to do damage). But i cant find any BOs for that. Does someone have one written up?  | ||
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nlight
Bulgaria58 Posts
On August 09 2012 16:20 enykie wrote: ZvP Newly, i see some Zergs doing 3 Hatch Builds with earlier lingspeed into Muta/Ling to deny their 3rd (or to do damage). But i cant find any BOs for that. Does someone have one written up? Nothing really special about it, you do a standard 3 hatch 6 min gas into getting 5th and 6th gasses as soon as possible (usually you'd get them after protoss has taken a 3rd) and teching to mutas. You can probably skip the roach warren if no hardcore gateway all-in is coming. I suggest getting a baneling's nest as banelings own mass zealot/sentry (something you might have trouble with before the mutas pop). Be warned that this is not the end-all of zerg builds, you pretty much hard counter sentry/immortal all-ins but you can die to heavy gateway aggression just as easily. | ||
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doggy
Germany306 Posts
Scouting the difference between: a) Immortal Sentry allin which hits at around ~10.30-11.30 min b) Immortal Sentry allin which hits at around 9.30 (protoss leaves the base shortly at around 9minutes, with 2 immortals, warp prism on the way and a fewer sentry count as on the later version) Both allins are followed up with most likely with 7 gates after they initially moved out, to reinforce. The problem (assuming standard 3 hatch zerg play into 2x gas at 6min or 3x gas at 6.30 vs nexus first/FFE) : The push at around 11min is stopable due to tech. If you have infestor spine out the push will never have any success. For that you need to pump eco until ure almost fully saturated on 3 bases. It also helps a lot to get lair before speed, with that you even wont need to buy any time to get the tech you need in time. The push at around 9.30 min is stopable by standard gas timings into speed first, a medium wave of zerglings between the 9-9.30min mark is easily able to fight the small and tiny immortal sentry army before its growing to a huge and scary force. Scouting is quite similiar, Protoss tries to get early gases at his natural, builds a early robo and goes for immortal sentry and follows it up with a lot of gateways. The only BO difference for the protoss i recognized was that the gateways are earlier for the earlier push - obviously. To be able to respond accordingly you need to know VERY early which one of those pushes is coming, which is almost impossible, because you need to bet on slow ovies scouting all the tech and more importantly the gateway count of your opponent. If you choose to lair first you wont have speed and a wave of lings in time to kill the tiny force until its growing, you also cant get any lair tech out before the push hits, its a 100% BO loss If you try to get speed first, and protoss stays in his base until 10.30 mins, you will never be able to achieve anything with a lingforce trying to attack him, because the army is already way too big. You also wont have the tech out you need, maybe if you can counterattack and buy some time.. but that rarely works against good players. With roach ling youre never able to crush this push unless protoss screws his micro up. Its also a 100% BO loss. There is also a problem to me scouting the difference between Immortal Sentry expand and Immortal Sentry allin/third nexus cancle, im more okay with that though because i will have my lair tech out to scout and hold. I dont see a solution though to the problem i mentioned. I cant imagine to build 20-30 lings blindly at 8.30 if i scout any Immortal sentry build every game, and like i said, it limites your capability to hold allins which hit later. Help please! | ||
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nlight
Bulgaria58 Posts
On August 09 2012 18:58 doggy wrote: I cant imagine to build 20-30 lings blindly at 8.30 if i scout any Immortal sentry build every game, and like i said, it limites your capability to hold allins which hit later. IMO that's the proper way to deal with it. If I scout a robo I just stop droning at 55-60 and mass zerglings. I always go lair before speed also. This deals with the 9:30 push absolutely gorgeously as it forces the protoss to warp a significant number of gateway units before he can move out or just die. If he decides to expand you can deny the nexus for a long time with your pretty large ling force so you can transition into lair tech with an advantage. If he masses an army and moves out later than 11:00 you have the bank to remax at least twice on your 60 drones and with proper control (baiting ffs, threatening counter attacks) you should be able to kill him. If I see that I have no chance to kill his army I just go for the base trade and spine up my natural hard (8+ spines). | ||
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doggy
Germany306 Posts
On August 09 2012 19:15 nlight wrote: IMO that's the proper way to deal with it. If I scout a robo I just stop droning at 55-60 and mass zerglings. I always go lair before speed also. This deals with the 9:30 push absolutely gorgeously as it forces the protoss to warp a significant number of gateway units before he can move out or just die. If he decides to expand you can deny the nexus for a long time with your pretty large ling force so you can transition into lair tech with an advantage. If he masses an army and moves out later than 11:00 you have the bank to remax at least twice on your 60 drones and with proper control (baiting ffs, threatening counter attacks) you should be able to kill him. If I see that I have no chance to kill his army I just go for the base trade and spine up my natural hard (8+ spines). So if the protoss tries to turtle a bit more to around 11min and push out then youre still using roach ling to fend of the allin? Baiting forcefields and stuff workes for me some times.. other times it doesnt. Isnt there a way to be safe for the 9.30 push and still be ready (in terms of lair tech) against the 11min allin? I mean, if the protoss has about 10 Sentries and a lot of immortals and a ton of stalkers.. you cant really bait out many FFs, youre always in danger of losing too many lings to FFs. It would be interesting to know how much you can invest in lings and still have infestors at around 11min mark rdy, does anyone know? | ||
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nlight
Bulgaria58 Posts
On August 09 2012 19:21 doggy wrote: So if the protoss tries to turtle a bit more to around 11min and push out then youre still using roach ling to fend of the allin? I don't think you can be safe vs all the variants and still get to your choice of lair tech. I either stop it with roach ling or die. EDIT: Something I'm interested in is whether getting two macro hatches instead of one would be good as larvae are definitely a problem when massing lings and roaches vs this. | ||
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JayIsImbA
Germany54 Posts
when I have all my queens grouped on one hotkey, how can you "fastswitch" between them so that the camera centers/jumps between them? | ||
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nlight
Bulgaria58 Posts
On August 09 2012 20:13 JayIsImbA wrote: when I have all my queens grouped on one hotkey, how can you "fastswitch" between them so that the camera centers/jumps between them? You can't. Most players use the Base camera hotkey rebound to spacebar or some other easy to reach button and spam that. Also this is for the 'Simple Questions Simple Answers' topic, this topic is for strategy advice. | ||
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JayIsImbA
Germany54 Posts
On August 09 2012 20:22 nlight wrote: You can't. Most players use the Base camera hotkey rebound to spacebar or some other easy to reach button and spam that. Also this is for the 'Simple Questions Simple Answers' topic, this topic is for strategy advice. okay thanks and sorry, but when you bind , for example SPACE, to this, how does it switch? I dont know about a "toggle between camera hotkeys" bind. | ||
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nlight
Bulgaria58 Posts
On August 09 2012 20:32 JayIsImbA wrote: okay thanks and sorry, but when you bind , for example SPACE, to this, how does it switch? I dont know about a "toggle between camera hotkeys" bind. There is a Hotkeys -> Camera -> Base camera hotkey that when tapped cycles between your hatcheries and you can use it for injecting very quickly. | ||
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JayIsImbA
Germany54 Posts
On August 09 2012 20:36 nlight wrote: There is a Hotkeys -> Camera -> Base camera hotkey that when tapped cycles between your hatcheries and you can use it for injecting very quickly. well thank you good sir ! | ||
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poppenfrack
28 Posts
Is ZvP still all about just defending whatever 2base all-in is thrown at you, with the occasional macro game coming down to vortex placement? Has the overlord speed buff made it any easier to judge what all-in is coming your way? Is 15hatch safe in ZvZ? I see it all the time but I imagine any pool build before 14pool would wreck it. I want to play as solid as possible when starting out so if 15hatch is too meta-game I'll stay away from it. What's the best inject method do you think? I hotkey all my queens to 5 and inject my hatcheries from the minimap. I'm sure this isn't optimal since it's easy to miss the minimap during stressful moments. I heard Idra or someone say that mutalisks have become obsolete in ZvZ, so now it's basically just roachwars all game, assuming the game goes past the ling/bling stage of the game. Is this true? How viable are ultralisks in ZvP? It seems I never see any, but I'm curious as to why. Lastly, what zerg player(s) would you recommend me to 'study'? I want solid macro-oriented play. I'll need to find some replays to learn some specific builds for the different matchups, and I'd prefer players of whom I can find replays, because I just can't learn much from watching a VoD. Thanks a bunch! | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On August 09 2012 21:21 poppenfrack wrote: Yo! I'm a high maser terran switching to zerg, and I have some questions: Is ZvP still all about just defending whatever 2base all-in is thrown at you, with the occasional macro game coming down to vortex placement? Has the overlord speed buff made it any easier to judge what all-in is coming your way? Protoss likes to two base all in, actually, all races like to do that. So you will have to face those over and over again regardless. The overlord speed buff has helped a lot in determining what all in is coming because you can see more of the base when you suicide it over the base. The 3+ base games tend to rely on either a lot of harassment based play or turtling into Broodlord compositions because 4 base toss has enough gas to support like 16 Stalkers a minute and can rival your reinforcements with mass gateways, which kind of force the Zerg into a more cost efficient army composition. On August 09 2012 21:21 poppenfrack wrote: Is 15hatch safe in ZvZ? I see it all the time but I imagine any pool build before 14pool would wreck it. I want to play as solid as possible when starting out so if 15hatch is too meta-game I'll stay away from it. It is only 'safe' if you dronescout with it, otherwise it can be a little bit coinflippy when facing a 9 pool drone-zergling all in. 15 pool 15 hatch is a lot safer but tends to be a little bit weaker against 14/14 gas pool openings because of the delayed speed and creep at the natural for a spinecrawler. On August 09 2012 21:21 poppenfrack wrote: What's the best inject method do you think? I hotkey all my queens to 5 and inject my hatcheries from the minimap. I'm sure this isn't optimal since it's easy to miss the minimap during stressful moments. Just do what works most efficient for you. Different people use different inject methods and they all seem to be great at injecting regardless of their different styles. On August 09 2012 21:21 poppenfrack wrote: I heard Idra or someone say that mutalisks have become obsolete in ZvZ, so now it's basically just roachwars all game, assuming the game goes past the ling/bling stage of the game. Is this true? Biggest bull I've ever heard. Watch AcerBly in the European tournaments who makes Mutalisks work all the time. Myself I pretty much use Mutalisks in all of my ZvZ's and my winrate is close to 75% in Masters. If you know what to transition into and how you use your Mutalisks you can do so much damage. I have even made a guide here on the Mutalisk style in ZvZ : http://raa-media.nl/blog/starcraft2/zvz-glaive On August 09 2012 21:21 poppenfrack wrote: How viable are ultralisks in ZvP? It seems I never see any, but I'm curious as to why. They are viable in certain timings, not as bad as Hydralisks but still kind of iffy against a Protoss that reacts well. Try to lean on Broodlords as your hive tech and get that down before trying anything Ultralisk related. On August 09 2012 21:21 poppenfrack wrote: Lastly, what zerg player(s) would you recommend me to 'study'? I want solid macro-oriented play. I'll need to find some replays to learn some specific builds for the different matchups, and I'd prefer players of whom I can find replays, because I just can't learn much from watching a VoD. Depends on the match ups you want to shine in. Dimaga is really damn good in ZvP and ZvZ, most of the european Zergs are excellent in those match ups. What I like to do is watch the tournaments rather than first person VODs because the production tab shows more than enough for builds. Because zerg revolves more about reacting to what the player sees, there aren't really build orders like for example Protoss or Terran. Just try and emulate the reactions of the pros and improve your macro until you can nail it. | ||
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nlight
Bulgaria58 Posts
On August 09 2012 21:21 poppenfrack wrote: Is ZvP still all about just defending whatever 2base all-in is thrown at you, with the occasional macro game coming down to vortex placement? Has the overlord speed buff made it any easier to judge what all-in is coming your way? Yes. On August 09 2012 21:21 poppenfrack wrote:Is 15hatch safe in ZvZ? As long as you 9 scout to check for early pool, yes 15 hatch is super safe, especially with the 5 range queens. On August 09 2012 21:21 poppenfrack wrote: What's the best inject method do you think? Base camera hotkey + all queens on one hotkey (about 1 sec for 3-4 hatches if you're good at it). On August 09 2012 21:21 poppenfrack wrote: I heard Idra or someone say that mutalisks have become obsolete in ZvZ, so now it's basically just roachwars all game, assuming the game goes past the ling/bling stage of the game. Is this true? Mutalisks are definitely not obsolete in ZvZ, we've seen DarkForce at the IPL with some super intelligent ZvZ muta play. On August 09 2012 21:21 poppenfrack wrote: How viable are ultralisks in ZvP? It seems I never see any, but I'm curious as to why. Make ultras only when you're winning and want to lose. Broodlords are still much preferred. On August 09 2012 21:21 poppenfrack wrote: Lastly, what zerg player(s) would you recommend me to 'study'? I want solid macro-oriented play. Ret for insane macro plays, Stephano for awesome multi-pronged harassment in all matchups, DRG for mechanical skill. | ||
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roym899
Germany426 Posts
I wonder whichtactic is the better on Cloud Kingdom ZvP. I just can't win this MU on this map anymore. (I'm low masters) Mutalisk are just so weak on this map because there is pretty much no air space near the Toss base to fly away. And Infestor / Spine turtle style doesn't seems to be very good either. I try to build the spine wall, but it's at the low ground at my 4th and so toss can easily kill it from above and then win. So what should I go for on this map? (if it goes into a macro game) | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On August 09 2012 16:20 enykie wrote: ZvP Newly, i see some Zergs doing 3 Hatch Builds with earlier lingspeed into Muta/Ling to deny their 3rd (or to do damage). But i cant find any BOs for that. Does someone have one written up? I think you mean the one that takes a fast (4:30) gas? Nestea's Version He takes a fast gas to get fast ling speed and lair, to get 10:30 mutas off 3 bases. If only this build was viable ZvT xD Basically: 15p/16h/15overlord/15queen/21queen/23 hatch 1x gas at 4:30 3x gas at 7:00-7:30 2x gas at 8:00 Fast Speed, fast lair, skip roach warren + evo if you scout no gateway all in, otherwise 6:30 roach warren/evo/a gas or two | ||
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poppenfrack
28 Posts
So, is 15hatch only 'safe' on 2player maps in ZvZ? Because a dronescout might not scout in time in maps with more than one possible spawn for your opponent. And I assume if I see anything other than 14pool I should just make a pool myself? Or, rather, at what #pool is it still safe to go 15hatch? | ||
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