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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
I have a replay(s) request -
I'm having a lot of trouble successfully maneuvering my way through the late-game vs Terran but especially with Protoss - I feel like I get stuck on roaches for too long and am often steamrolled. But when that isn't the case I get very lost on when and how to proceed to BL's this is especially the case vs Protoss because I rarely know when to put up spines or how to put them up properly, further more I don't know how to prioritize my upgrades and in general don't know how to effectively spend my gas (ie what portion of gas goes towards what, and when) I also am lost on when to take my 4th (need gases 7-8) without dying. This often leads to me getting my 4th badly, and thus being gas starved.
I have fewer issues vs Terran because I can go ultras at hive and then comfortable get to BL's, I also don't have to spine up - and there's always some sort of back and forth vs Terran throughout the midgame, and I can usually navigate each game individually.
I frequently lose on Splateau and Entombed Valley (unless Toss does some all in that I can shut down with roaches).
So my request is this - can someone please provide replays (preferably several) on these maps where BL/Infestor is used to good effect? I feel like I need to just sit down and take notes on several games. Also any advice would be much appreciated.
-Andy
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Hello! I have been running 14/14/21 in zvz for a long time. But I have heard rumors and saw at mlg the 15p 16h builds. I was wondering if anyone could explain the build to me in detail. How to react to common areas, or just point me in the direction of a guide on TL. I did do google and TL search but couldnt really find anything on it!
Thanks guy!
xSPHxWateR
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Hey All
Does anyone here have tips for holding against a big sentry-immortal attack off 2 base? In this game I made a few mistakes (being in gold); a couple of supply blocks and accidentally making 10 lings at the start (I misclicked). Sure enough I scouted the attack, got to 75 drones, pumped roaches and lings but... the attack came, I was up over 60 supply and I still got completely crushed!
Here's the replay:
http://drop.sc/235020
Other than the micro slip-ups does anyone have any suggestions?
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How to Rallying units when defending a breaching push
I put all larva eggs into a cntrl grp and watch the grp for the hatch then a-move BUT................
they seem to walk about for a second and get murdered (not all of them if 8 are hatching) but my problem is this, the hatching larva WILL hold the push but they are slaughtered on hatch
ive tried rallying away, rallying to the hatch rallying to structures so that then the opp hits it they attack right away.
Tips to minimise the walking to their death will be greatly appreciated
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On August 07 2012 19:41 Smartwater wrote:
Hello! I have been running 14/14/21 in zvz for a long time. But I have heard rumors and saw at mlg the 15p 16h builds. I was wondering if anyone could explain the build to me in detail. How to react to common areas, or just point me in the direction of a guide on TL. I did do google and TL search but couldnt really find anything on it!
Thanks guy!
xSPHxWateR
With the 15th spawning larva make a pool, if you have stacked really well you will have 200 mins perfect (if done really well youll have 235 which makes for a faster pool ^^)
with the 16th larva (dont forget its not the next one as you replace the drone for the pool) make a hatch, rally this larva to the Nat, it will make its journey when you have 200 mins which builds to 300 as you get to the hatch position.
Its for the idea of NEVER cutting drone production or ruining ur stacking with bouncing drones. i do a 14/16 as if u stack really well you get the 200 the same way and can get the pool down just before 2 mins.
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Hey All
Does anyone here have tips for holding against a big sentry-immortal attack off 2 base? In this game I made a few mistakes (being in gold); a couple of supply blocks and accidentally making 10 lings at the start (I misclicked). Sure enough I scouted the attack, got to 75 drones, pumped roaches and lings but... the attack came, I was up over 60 supply and I still got completely crushed!
I personally feel like 75 drones is too much, you can stop at 60 or even 55 if you are certain it's the sentry immortal build. My build vs toss includes getting one gas as he is building his gateway. You get speed and then pull out of gas. Then, once speed is 75-80% complete make a row or a row and a half of speedlings and you can deny any early proxy pylons and threaten runbys if he wants to leave his base. You can also continue to pump lings or drones.
THE most important part of this build is to remember to go back to gas and get a lair and dont forget to also make roaches(or tech to inf) if he is pushing out. Its easy to get distracted and to keep massing lings to fight against his push, but pure ling wont hold the sentry immo timing. The first set is just to slow down really early "push outs" and give you time to mass roaches or get inf, whatever you decided you wanted to do (dont do both you need to go all in one boat to hold an all in).
Its not as greedy as drone until 6:25 and then add gas, but its much safer because you can ling flood. This works well at 1500 masters level at the very least.
GL
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Hello! I have been running 14/14/21 in zvz for a long time. But I have heard rumors and saw at mlg the 15p 16h builds. I was wondering if anyone could explain the build to me in detail. How to react to common areas, or just point me in the direction of a guide on TL. I did do google and TL search but couldnt really find anything on it!
I do much of the same build. However, i get pool on 14, hatch on 16 and gas on 17. ZvZ is heavily dependent on OV scouting and ling scouting. with the 14/16/17 build you have later speed and hatch  , but it is incredibly safe.
There are three styles of this build that i mess around with
-You can go straight to banes and skip speed and leave one in gas, this gives you an economic edge but you cant really be aggresive. This gives you a strong 2 base timing to work with.
-You can go for speed and then stop gas and get 3 queens and maybe a spine if you feel you need it. I prefer this build because it gives you flexibility, you have alot of mins so you can ling flood, drone hard, or take a SUPER fast third and get away with it (with good micro). If you go with this with this build; if they bane bust you then you have to react accordingly: pull drones, focus banes with queens, block ramp, micro, etc.
-You can also get speed and then bane nest right after, this seems to be the preferred style for pros, you can be very aggressive and be very safe, you often want a third base at about 45 supply (32 drones on minerals) with this build.
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I cannot help but all-in in ZvZ, i hate myself for it I never feel safe. I know that this is a very broad question, which has probably been discussed a lot, but: how do i know if i'm safe to drone? For example - i scout 2 spines and late gas so i decide that i'm safe. A bit later a gazillion lings come, my few lings and 3 banes are absolutely not enough and i die. So the next few ZvZs i make about 20 less drones than the opponent and flood them with units. I don't like this
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On August 07 2012 20:14 StatixEx wrote:
How to Rallying units when defending a breaching push
I put all larva eggs into a cntrl grp and watch the grp for the hatch then a-move BUT................
they seem to walk about for a second and get murdered (not all of them if 8 are hatching) but my problem is this, the hatching larva WILL hold the push but they are slaughtered on hatch
ive tried rallying away, rallying to the hatch rallying to structures so that then the opp hits it they attack right away.
Tips to minimise the walking to their death will be greatly appreciated
When an opponent's army is between your hatches you really have to avoid adding larvae eggs to your main army group. What I do is I change the rally of one(or more) of the hatches and let units pool up in a safer location. Then when I'm ready to attack I add them another control group and attack with both groups. The only other way if you insist on keeping them added to your main group is to constantly a-move your main army so your units start attacking right as they spawn.
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On August 08 2012 02:05 Psyclon wrote:I cannot help but all-in in ZvZ, i hate myself for it I never feel safe. I know that this is a very broad question, which has probably been discussed a lot, but: how do i know if i'm safe to drone? For example - i scout 2 spines and late gas so i decide that i'm safe. A bit later a gazillion lings come, my few lings and 3 banes are absolutely not enough and i die. So the next few ZvZs i make about 20 less drones than the opponent and flood them with units. I don't like this
Check his drone count with an overlord behind the natural. That way you can see how many drones he has and you will know if he's doing some sort of all in/pressure. Not enough zergs do this and its crucial and very good to see this.
Also sending in a ling to your opponents main (or attempting to at least) every little bit is nice to, a lot of the time you will see either some units, sneak into the base and see what he's teching, etc. This is something you should be doing a lot more as well.
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On August 06 2012 22:07 Galock wrote:I've just played 4 games against Protoss and lost every single one. Usually against the FFE I'll put use 2 base aggression of some form (Roach all in, Nydus and Hydras) But I'm trying to use 3 base macro-style play. Particularly with the cloud kingdom game, I feel helpless to understand how I am supposed to win against 3 base toss aggression. Where am I going wrong? I'll only upload 2 of the replays, I won't bore you all with 4. Be honest but realistic with criticism. http://lh.rs/7g4E9kl9fwinhttp://lh.rs/20BW7hLgaHCs
Watching your Entombed valley replay right now:
-I like your mechanics, hotkey usage, very clean opening.
-15 hatch vs Protoss takes balls of steel, I would recommend not doing it on entombed valley because of pylon-blocking the ramp.
-Why the early gas? No zerg takes gas before their third base, most don't take it until the 6:30 triple gas
-Your third was ~2 minutes late. With hatch first the timings are a bit different, but there's no reason your third shouldn't be planted by 5:00. You need it.
-You go +1 carapace before ling speed....what? This and the fast gas are the biggest mistakes all game.
To elaborate: + Show Spoiler +
I like to go 1x gas at 4:30, AFTER a 4:00 third. I go 15p/16h and take a third ~23 supply. With the gas I get I get a fast ling speed to delay gateway all-ins, and I still get a fast lair (6:45 starts) to get mutas out in time for a sentry/immortal all in
If you take gas, it needs to be for a reason. You started +1 armor before he started +1 attack... Standard evo timing is 7:15-7:30
Okay, watching the rest of the replay honestly you just need to read a ZvP guide to 3base play. Your roach warren/evo are at sporadic timings, along with gas and third base.
Here's "standard" ZvP that is safe from 2base all ins and lets you deny Protoss' third:
-15 pool, 16 hatch, 15 overlord, 15 queen + pair of lings
-Drones, @100% Queen[1] -- inject and move to natural, start Queen[2]
-23 Third hatch (~4:00-4:15)
-Mash that 'D' key
-Overlord at appropriate time to avoid 28 supply block
-When first inject at natural is at 30/40, start Queen [3] (at natural)
-Don't inject natural with the queen, spread a tumor then move to third.
-Now you have triple injects, all going into drones/overlords until 6:30.
At 6:30 you take 3x gas and scout the gases.
If you see:
0 gas at natural: 6:30 roach warren/evo, cut drones COMPLETELY and make nothing but lings. Speed with first 100 gas.
1 gas at natural: 7:00 roach warren/evo, don't stop droning until ~65-70. Make spores + queens when evo finishes. Make a few roaches if you don't see air! Don't want DTs to screw you over
2 gas at natural: Super tech heavy, either 2x stargate or sentry/immortal all-in or collossus all in or lots of DTs.
Get a 7:30 roach warren/evo, cut drones at 65 and just make roach/ling. Lair with first 100 gas, speed with second 100 gas. If he's going stargate I like to throw down spores, wait for him to attack me, then counterattack with my roach/ling and usually win. Sentry/immortal is hard to beat, butwith a good flank it's possible. Colossus all ins are rare, you could just counterattack and win. DTs are obvious, just make spores + spines and get that there lair!
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On August 07 2012 20:14 StatixEx wrote:
How to Rallying units when defending a breaching push
I put all larva eggs into a cntrl grp and watch the grp for the hatch then a-move BUT................
they seem to walk about for a second and get murdered (not all of them if 8 are hatching) but my problem is this, the hatching larva WILL hold the push but they are slaughtered on hatch
ive tried rallying away, rallying to the hatch rallying to structures so that then the opp hits it they attack right away.
Tips to minimise the walking to their death will be greatly appreciated
You can rally them onto enemy units and they will target that unit. Takes some splitting in most cases to be effective ( bunch up can cause problems, etc.), but they will attack as they hatch. Problem is usually that if they get slaughtered as they hatch, they will get slaughtered if they hatch then attack, too.
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On August 07 2012 13:50 quarkral wrote:
I think the ling/baneling bust is still viable as a response to scouting a fast 3rd CC from Terran. I've seen TLO do this on his stream. Terran just won't have enough army to prevent you from doing decent damage at the natural to pay for the attack.
Also if you've done the gasless queen opener thing, you can send your queens along for the attack instead of using roaches. They can tank, kill hellions, and happen to deal with banshees as well. Stephano does this once on Antiga Shipyard against some T, in cross spawn positions too, although it was after lair tech and with 3 base economy. Then again the guy invested heavily in cloakshees, so overseers were kinda needed.
So the ling/baneling thing seems to be a viable reaction to certain builds. Or maybe done after different timings, i.e. right after saturating 3 bases, while terran is trying to float after his 3rd.
Sending queens sounds super fishy to me, because you can't really go 6 queen into roach ling bane and expect to hit at a decent time. You get a minimal number of queens, take gas earlier, etc, because you want to hit with roaches before tanks are done, and you need banes to bust the wall, and you need ling speed for reinforcing lings. In addition, queens are not mobile enough to replace roaches, in terms of getting to the main ramp, tangling with scvs when they get pulled, etc. And their ground dps is terrible. Show me a replay of no roach, queen ling bane bust, please. I don't believe it works at all, it just sounds silly and in my head I can't see how it might work.
I think I saw the stephano game on antiga that you mentioned, he did some weird not-timing not-all-in thing, and he needed the queens to take tank shots as well as defend the few infestors he had, so that he had enough energy to fungal, instead of using up energy on ITs.
tl;dr I think this ling/bane bust discussion is dead, blade says it's bad and this queen stuff sounds worse than vanilla ling bane.
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On August 07 2012 20:19 StatixEx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 19:41 Smartwater wrote:
Hello! I have been running 14/14/21 in zvz for a long time. But I have heard rumors and saw at mlg the 15p 16h builds. I was wondering if anyone could explain the build to me in detail. How to react to common areas, or just point me in the direction of a guide on TL. I did do google and TL search but couldnt really find anything on it!
Thanks guy!
xSPHxWateR With the 15th spawning larva make a pool, if you have stacked really well you will have 200 mins perfect (if done really well youll have 235 which makes for a faster pool ^^) with the 16th larva (dont forget its not the next one as you replace the drone for the pool) make a hatch, rally this larva to the Nat, it will make its journey when you have 200 mins which builds to 300 as you get to the hatch position. Its for the idea of NEVER cutting drone production or ruining ur stacking with bouncing drones. i do a 14/16 as if u stack really well you get the 200 the same way and can get the pool down just before 2 mins.
You did not answer his questions at all. I think if he can follow 14/14/21, he can handle up through building the hatch on time. And rhe advantage of pool-hatch is not continuous drone production, it's to not die to 10pool variants, which is the primary issue with hatch first, and to be 100% safe against earlier pools, which hatch first can die to if you screw up or, I think, if you don't scout it in time.
Water, unfortunately I think most guides cover 15h only, because it has been the standard for a long time. And both belial and blade seem to use 15h as well, based on their guides. Your best bet may be to watch the mlg vods in question and note their reactions to what they scout, etc.
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Hey guys,
I've just lost a ZvP on Ohana and I would be thankful for advice  I was top diamond, but dropped to Plat because of inactivity and stupidity :D
The replay:
I think my Lair tech was too late and I didnt build infestors when pathogen glands was halfway done. Those are the failures I can see. With fungal I would have crushed his bio force push at my third, I guess. Would you agree? Whats your opinion since I dont really know what I could have done better May plan was to go mass ling + infestors and quick upgrades, then hive and broods.
Replay
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Reading through some posts on TL I got some conflicting information on two questions that have been bothering me lately about the "buildorder" I am using (gold league EU server).
1. "Good macro will make you cruise to diamond no matter what you build" Been using filter sc's zerg gold guide and I am simply getting stomped by tanks and collosi even if I attack at the 11:30 to 12:00 mark. It frustrates me and it seems that even though macro is good, just making roaches and "a-moving" isn't actually enough anymore in gold league. So is it smart to get some more micro into the mix like infestors/mutalisks?
2. Filtersc's build makes you go up to 60 drones on 2 bases, take a third and saturate it on one round of larvae pops (8 drones) and maynard (spelling) stuff from your nat and main to the third. However some people state this is more a thing for protoss/terran due to sequential worker production and that zerg might as well take the third at 44 drones and make the 22 drones when its nearing completion. Question is, does this matter on the gold lvl or not?
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On August 08 2012 07:59 Vechora wrote:
Reading through some posts on TL I got some conflicting information on two questions that have been bothering me lately about the "buildorder" I am using (gold league EU server).
1. "Good macro will make you cruise to diamond no matter what you build" Been using filter sc's zerg gold guide and I am simply getting stomped by tanks and collosi even if I attack at the 11:30 to 12:00 mark. It frustrates me and it seems that even though macro is good, just making roaches and "a-moving" isn't actually enough anymore in gold league. So is it smart to get some more micro into the mix like infestors/mutalisks?
2. Filtersc's build makes you go up to 60 drones on 2 bases, take a third and saturate it on one round of larvae pops (8 drones) and maynard (spelling) stuff from your nat and main to the third. However some people state this is more a thing for protoss/terran due to sequential worker production and that zerg might as well take the third at 44 drones and make the 22 drones when its nearing completion. Question is, does this matter on the gold lvl or not?
1. I am sure with top macro you can roll over gold opponents with a-move but I just dont think anyone in gold is capable of keeping the perfect macro. I dont see a reason to only focus on your macro and dont care about your units at all, being able to micro is very important as well (maybe not in gold league but you will need it in higher leagues and I guess thats what you are aiming for). Maybe you should try to do something like this: Focus only on your macro and building units (roaches) in zvp and try to play a very micro intensive style in zvt (muta/ling/bane).
2. This one is hard to call since you should only make drones when you feel safe so every game is a different scenario. If you fully saturate your 2 base and there is no need to produce units then yeah going to 60 and then transfering is a good move but generally I'd advise you to saturate 2 base -> take third -> make some units to be safe-> saturate third.
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On August 07 2012 19:49 Efficient wrote:Hey All Does anyone here have tips for holding against a big sentry-immortal attack off 2 base? In this game I made a few mistakes (being in gold); a couple of supply blocks and accidentally making 10 lings at the start (I misclicked). Sure enough I scouted the attack, got to 75 drones, pumped roaches and lings but... the attack came, I was up over 60 supply and I still got completely crushed! Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/235020Other than the micro slip-ups does anyone have any suggestions?
Notes: + Show Spoiler +
You tap a ton, and it keeps you from using larvae on time. You're a full second late in building drones after your overlord finishes, because you tap drones or box drones or something at least 3 times. That's just the most egregious example, seems like your early play is rife with little areas of slack. Try and pick it up, you're not really doing anything else then.
14h 13p is weird. it's not optimal for econ (15h 15p), and the standard is 14p 16h to avoid cannons, which you waste another drone scouting/patrolling for because you send your second overlord out to scout. So you're super low on drones early, down to 12 for awhile vs 14 for a standard build, i.e. you're running at perhaps 85% mining.
Third timing is a bit late. You saw no cannon, he went greedy, you need to match it.
By 9 min you start floating a decent amount of minerals, and because you took a single gas at 7min, then added two more, you might want to consider either taking double gas at 7min. Just a thought, it seemed odd to wait so long and only take one.
By 9:30 you're about a full inject behind on your main and natural hatcheries, FYI.
You see him move out at about 10:00 and you have a HUGE HUGE supply block. But it gets worse, because you start TEN overlords, about half of which are a complete waste of minerals and larvae. If you are supply blocked and see a push, make a few overlords yes, but also drop some spines at your natural, or your third depending on the map. In this case, I would drop a few at each. Not only does this free up supply, you also have the chance to have them complete, and they work wonders if the immortals are either distracted or dead.
You need a ling or overlord or both at the two possible thirds.
12:00ish, he catches you off guard and dices your with forcefields, you attempt to engage into defensive FF. First off, send out a ling or two to find his army, don't let him get to that ramp position. Your entire ling force can dart around and keep tabs on him without too much risk, the middle is very open here, and on most maps. Second, why did you engage? 75% of your roaches were stuck outside the FF, but you could have run them around the right edge of the FF wall, at the very least forcing out the last of the sentry energy (which proceeds to block your escape a few moments later).
Yeah you had the econ (read: reinforcement ability) and army to beat him, but you need to realize that sentry immortal with enough energy will auto-win any normal fight against roach-ling or ling-bane. You need to stalk his army with lings, picking off stray units, or engage in the open to force FF then run and save what you can, repeat until he's out of FF and mass anything cleans it up. Or be awesome and ambush with lings right when he steps out of his base, before he has stalker or zealot support, but I don't think anyone has enough experience with this to say that that's anything more than a gamble (i.e. you're gambling that he moves out in an unsafe way, you have no control over that part of it).
Alternately you can try blade's counter suggestion from awhile back: spine up your natural (as in, a LOT of spines), counterattack with your whole army. You lose your third but he can't break natural (reinforcements plus spines), he loses everything and has to evac probes and rebuild.
I have also seen, I think... coca vs sase, in TSL4 ro32? (something TSL4 anyway) do the same kind of counter, but just have enough units at home to hold the main ramp on Ohana (narrow enough to hold with fewer units). He got lucky and when toss split his army to try to speed up the toss end of the base-race (snipe all hatches ASAP or something, don't know the theory behind it), he took down the small force that was sent into the main.
Basically, roach ling kills bases fast, sentries+anything not so much, so you essentially negate the forcefield/GS advantage of sentries by countering.
Hope this helps.
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Can someone explain to me the advantages and disadvantages of the common 6 queen opening? I see it all the time now and it seems so passive. The terran responds by getting a fast natural expo and an inbase macro orbital. The benefits that I see are extreme creep spread and the ability to keep both helions and banshees at bay.
Why don't more people use sheth style roach expands? It allows you to really pressure the terran if they try for any helion or fast expo play. It also reveals their base and shows you what they are doing. If they are getting banshees, they have to defend with them, so it allows you to prepare while they deal with the banshees. Is it just that sheth style roach expands are too easily deflected by swapping a tech lab onto a barracks and repairing the wall/bunker with scvs?
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On August 08 2012 13:36 Xanbatou wrote:
Can someone explain to me the advantages and disadvantages of the common 6 queen opening? I see it all the time now and it seems so passive. The terran responds by getting a fast natural expo and an inbase macro orbital. The benefits that I see are extreme creep spread and the ability to keep both helions and banshees at bay.
Why don't more people use sheth style roach expands? It allows you to really pressure the terran if they try for any helion or fast expo play. It also reveals their base and shows you what they are doing. If they are getting banshees, they have to defend with them, so it allows you to prepare while they deal with the banshees. Is it just that sheth style roach expands are too easily deflected by swapping a tech lab onto a barracks and repairing the wall/bunker with scvs?
By getting gas earlier you delay your 3rd expo,You do the 6 queen opener so that you can get the fastest possible 3rd without just dying
Besides, you should have a clear idea of what units terran will be making once you sac your overlord into their base
Also, if the terran is good and not being greedy (fast 3rd) they can defend roach agression that isnt heavily invested into
Theyll have a bunker they can repair forever, and be able to make extra ones once your initial attack fails
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EPT
