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On August 05 2012 20:40 tehcaekftw wrote:
I was in a game, ZvP, regular FFE thing.. naturally i made roaches. I was going to drop most my army into his main due to Cloud Kingdom which has a decently easy defendable third and such. I had most my army loaded up in overlords, though he attacked before i could drop or anything, so i decided to drop my army ontop of his (mainy roaches, couple zergilngs.)
Now.. im not sure if i was just lucky or something.. but usually when you attack with mass roaches, you'll get forcefielded to death. After i dropped my army on top of his.. i won easily.. it semt like forcefields were useless. Again, not sure if i was just lucky or somehting BUT.. question is..
Is dropping army ontop of Protoss army (stalker/immo/sentry) viable to prevent death from forcefields?
I'm guessing a lot of immortal sentry all ins are hitting before you drops would finish and you would be stuck with a reduced size roach/ling army while your drops are half way done and your third is dying. I've never actually tried this or anything but with how tight the timings on holding 2 base immo sentry builds are with roach/ling I'd be surprised if you could have drops and all the necessary units out in time.
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Are there some tricks to getting your natural down when fighting the probe? The Protoss always seems to delay my natural for way to long because I just can't see to win the drone war at the beginning of the game. I would consider taking two drones and just sending one to my third, but it just seems so easy for the Protoss to just go cannon it that I'm not sure that it's worth the risk.
Currently, I go 14p, 15 overlord and then 16 hatch, which is already pretty late, but it ensures I can get lings out relatively quickly in order to deal with the probe. I feel like I'm giving up a good 30+ seconds of power droning in the early game though and want to be able to actually get my nat down in a reasonable amount of time.
Thoughts? It seems so much easier to deny the expo then it is to take it 
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On August 05 2012 20:40 tehcaekftw wrote:
I was in a game, ZvP, regular FFE thing.. naturally i made roaches. I was going to drop most my army into his main due to Cloud Kingdom which has a decently easy defendable third and such. I had most my army loaded up in overlords, though he attacked before i could drop or anything, so i decided to drop my army ontop of his (mainy roaches, couple zergilngs.)
Now.. im not sure if i was just lucky or something.. but usually when you attack with mass roaches, you'll get forcefielded to death. After i dropped my army on top of his.. i won easily.. it semt like forcefields were useless. Again, not sure if i was just lucky or somehting BUT.. question is..
Is dropping army ontop of Protoss army (stalker/immo/sentry) viable to prevent death from forcefields?
Drops can be really good because Protoss will have a hard time using FF, but I feel roach drops are inferior to bling drops because, since each roach is dropped one at a time, they can take your army slowly still. What I've found useful against immortal/sentry, and only immortal/sentry, is mass lings. I'm not sure if it's because my opponent isn't fast enough to force field a flock of lings or because they are so small that it's hard to force field them once they get close, but it tears through that all in.
Roaches are complete trash against that build unless you can get an amazing flank off, which I can only occasionally do. Timing two or three sides is really hard for me, so I've opted for a less complicated approach =D
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Thanks for the reply guys. I'll learn to trust the feels.
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On August 06 2012 01:40 shadogi wrote:Are there some tricks to getting your natural down when fighting the probe? The Protoss always seems to delay my natural for way to long because I just can't see to win the drone war at the beginning of the game. I would consider taking two drones and just sending one to my third, but it just seems so easy for the Protoss to just go cannon it that I'm not sure that it's worth the risk. Currently, I go 14p, 15 overlord and then 16 hatch, which is already pretty late, but it ensures I can get lings out relatively quickly in order to deal with the probe. I feel like I'm giving up a good 30+ seconds of power droning in the early game though and want to be able to actually get my nat down in a reasonable amount of time. Thoughts? It seems so much easier to deny the expo then it is to take it
Just like you said send 2 drones, one to your natural and one to your third. If he pylon blocks your natural place hatchery at your third and follow the probe with your drone from the natural. This should be enough to scare him off from any cannon rushing and even if he tries you should be able to stop it.
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On August 06 2012 00:43 DarkBaneling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 20:40 tehcaekftw wrote:
I was in a game, ZvP, regular FFE thing.. naturally i made roaches. I was going to drop most my army into his main due to Cloud Kingdom which has a decently easy defendable third and such. I had most my army loaded up in overlords, though he attacked before i could drop or anything, so i decided to drop my army ontop of his (mainy roaches, couple zergilngs.)
Now.. im not sure if i was just lucky or something.. but usually when you attack with mass roaches, you'll get forcefielded to death. After i dropped my army on top of his.. i won easily.. it semt like forcefields were useless. Again, not sure if i was just lucky or somehting BUT.. question is..
Is dropping army ontop of Protoss army (stalker/immo/sentry) viable to prevent death from forcefields? I'm guessing a lot of immortal sentry all ins are hitting before you drops would finish and you would be stuck with a reduced size roach/ling army while your drops are half way done and your third is dying. I've never actually tried this or anything but with how tight the timings on holding 2 base immo sentry builds are with roach/ling I'd be surprised if you could have drops and all the necessary units out in time.
It was fairly late in game. Around 15 min or so, i was about to transition and beforehand i thought i might aswell drop my army away and do damage, but he attacked while i had army loaded up and was about to go drop. As far as i remember, roachmaxout vs FFE is about 11-12 min if you do it well.. and surely its possible to get drop AND speed for Ovies by that time, and then use drops there?
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how many drones should i have to support 2/3/4 gases??
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I feel like taking the third instead of the natural is really risky on 4 player ladder maps where you can't scout your opponent in time. What if he decides to go for a gateway opening instead of FE?
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Is high eco baneling bust viable in todays metagame kyrix style? What are it's strengths and weaknesses?
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On August 06 2012 10:06 whatevername wrote:
Is high eco baneling bust viable in todays metagame kyrix style? What are it's strengths and weaknesses?
Not really. Terrans have gotten very good at defending vs those types of all ins (and hellions kinda shut it down to, roach/ling/bane is much stronger).
The benefit would be well winning, but at least at high masters + it is very easily defendable unless the terran is being super super greedy.
I would recommend just playing normal or if you want to do a bust roach/ling/bling is much, much stronger then just going ling/bane trust me.
Most terrans I play also always go into hellions after their expansion which if microd will easily hold off the bust.
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On August 06 2012 05:36 Windwaker wrote:
how many drones should i have to support 2/3/4 gases??
There are a bunch of variables that go into this question that you really haven't specified. What matchup and unit composition for example. What time you choose to tech up and what you are spending your gas on, and expansion count.
I guess one way to think about it is like this: If I want to expand more, or drone up more, I will focus on saturating minerals before taking more gas than I need. For example if you're taking a third in ZvZ and your opponent is also playing passive, you can delay getting your 3/4th gasses for a bit longer. In favor of more drones, and maybe 1/1 missile/carapace and lair.
To contrast the above example: If I want to tech up quickly, or invest in gas heavy units, I will make my 3/4th extractors when I feel I have just enough drones gathering minerals. A more concrete way to consider this idea is again, in ZvZ. Say i'm going for two base mutalisks. In this situation I will invest in more gas much more quickly. If I dont anticipate an attack I will get my natural extractors up when my income is good enough to essentially continuously spend all my minerals on drones as the lair and spire finish.
Hopefully I didn't over complicate the question here. But the point is there is no definite answer because it depends entirely on the strategy you are trying to execute.
Rule of thumb: Instead of asking yourself how many drones do I need to support 2/3/4 gasses, ask this instead. For X strategy that I want to execute, how can I best balance my gas and mineral income to carry out my plan in the most efficient way possible.
Hope this helps.
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I've just played 4 games against Protoss and lost every single one. Usually against the FFE I'll put use 2 base aggression of some form (Roach all in, Nydus and Hydras) But I'm trying to use 3 base macro-style play. Particularly with the cloud kingdom game, I feel helpless to understand how I am supposed to win against 3 base toss aggression. Where am I going wrong? I'll only upload 2 of the replays, I won't bore you all with 4. Be honest but realistic with criticism.
http://lh.rs/7g4E9kl9fwin
http://lh.rs/20BW7hLgaHCs
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How many drones am I supposed to have when I go for the 12-13min roach max? 12 on gas and 48 on minerals, so 60?
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On August 07 2012 01:00 nick1689 wrote:
How many drones am I supposed to have when I go for the 12-13min roach max? 12 on gas and 48 on minerals, so 60?
Generally, yes. 16 on each base's minerals and 3 mining 4 gas geysers somewhere. Should be able to support 4 hatch macro with 4 queens from it as well so you'd be around 70 or more supply (more if you made earlier lings to deal with pressure)
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On August 06 2012 01:40 shadogi wrote:Are there some tricks to getting your natural down when fighting the probe? The Protoss always seems to delay my natural for way to long because I just can't see to win the drone war at the beginning of the game. I would consider taking two drones and just sending one to my third, but it just seems so easy for the Protoss to just go cannon it that I'm not sure that it's worth the risk. Currently, I go 14p, 15 overlord and then 16 hatch, which is already pretty late, but it ensures I can get lings out relatively quickly in order to deal with the probe. I feel like I'm giving up a good 30+ seconds of power droning in the early game though and want to be able to actually get my nat down in a reasonable amount of time. Thoughts? It seems so much easier to deny the expo then it is to take it
15 overlord is super early. I don't get my third overlord until a hatch is placed.
Two drones is pretty standard, you see it from a lot of players (thinking of IPL TAC3 here) because it basically allows you to give a giant middle finger to the probe, either you duke it out at the nat with both drones (maps with bad third, e.g. entombed), or you send one to nat and one to third, almost ensuring you can take one of them.
As an anti-cannon measure, you should be moving your second overlord from the natural to the third as soon as the probe is camping the natural. If you get the natural, move it back; if you get the third, let it keep moving to the third. With the current speed of overlords, you should have no problem seeing the cannons coming. Though the third is often too far for drones to kill the cannons, spotting the cannons with an overlord does mean that you're aware and ready to cancel.
Quick side note about cannons at the third on Cloud: the "secret" spot where you can nestle a cannon behind the minerals is impossible to stop from finishing, but if you walk you main queen to the edge of the cliff, the queen can hit it no problem. This is one case where you WANT him to cannon you, because free cannon+pylon.
Let me repeat, I think that 15 overlord puts you really far behind. More than the sending out the extra drone ever could.
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On August 06 2012 10:48 Sporadic44 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 05:36 Windwaker wrote:
how many drones should i have to support 2/3/4 gases?? There are a bunch of variables that go into this question that you really haven't specified. What matchup and unit composition for example. What time you choose to tech up and what you are spending your gas on, and expansion count. I guess one way to think about it is like this: If I want to expand more, or drone up more, I will focus on saturating minerals before taking more gas than I need. For example if you're taking a third in ZvZ and your opponent is also playing passive, you can delay getting your 3/4th gasses for a bit longer. In favor of more drones, and maybe 1/1 missile/carapace and lair. To contrast the above example: If I want to tech up quickly, or invest in gas heavy units, I will make my 3/4th extractors when I feel I have just enough drones gathering minerals. A more concrete way to consider this idea is again, in ZvZ. Say i'm going for two base mutalisks. In this situation I will invest in more gas much more quickly. If I dont anticipate an attack I will get my natural extractors up when my income is good enough to essentially continuously spend all my minerals on drones as the lair and spire finish. Hopefully I didn't over complicate the question here. But the point is there is no definite answer because it depends entirely on the strategy you are trying to execute. Rule of thumb: Instead of asking yourself how many drones do I need to support 2/3/4 gasses, ask this instead. For X strategy that I want to execute, how can I best balance my gas and mineral income to carry out my plan in the most efficient way possible. Hope this helps.
ty for the answer 
i just feel sometimes that i harvest to much gas, wich i cant spent because of my low drone count, in situations when i dont wanna save gas for mutas.
guess it comes with time.
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On August 07 2012 09:35 Windwaker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 10:48 Sporadic44 wrote:On August 06 2012 05:36 Windwaker wrote:
how many drones should i have to support 2/3/4 gases?? There are a bunch of variables that go into this question that you really haven't specified. What matchup and unit composition for example. What time you choose to tech up and what you are spending your gas on, and expansion count. I guess one way to think about it is like this: If I want to expand more, or drone up more, I will focus on saturating minerals before taking more gas than I need. For example if you're taking a third in ZvZ and your opponent is also playing passive, you can delay getting your 3/4th gasses for a bit longer. In favor of more drones, and maybe 1/1 missile/carapace and lair. To contrast the above example: If I want to tech up quickly, or invest in gas heavy units, I will make my 3/4th extractors when I feel I have just enough drones gathering minerals. A more concrete way to consider this idea is again, in ZvZ. Say i'm going for two base mutalisks. In this situation I will invest in more gas much more quickly. If I dont anticipate an attack I will get my natural extractors up when my income is good enough to essentially continuously spend all my minerals on drones as the lair and spire finish. Hopefully I didn't over complicate the question here. But the point is there is no definite answer because it depends entirely on the strategy you are trying to execute. Rule of thumb: Instead of asking yourself how many drones do I need to support 2/3/4 gasses, ask this instead. For X strategy that I want to execute, how can I best balance my gas and mineral income to carry out my plan in the most efficient way possible. Hope this helps. ty for the answer i just feel sometimes that i harvest to much gas, wich i cant spent because of my low drone count, in situations when i dont wanna save gas for mutas. guess it comes with time.
Here's my simple way to mitigate the issue: every time you want to take a geyser because you feel like you have a good mineral econ going, start the extractor and add 4 drones (extractor plus three gas drones).
This will at least keep you at the same mineral income, and might help make the adjustment process less jarring.
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Quick side note about cannons at the third on Cloud: the "secret" spot where you can nestle a cannon behind the minerals is impossible to stop from finishing, but if you walk you main queen to the edge of the cliff, the queen can hit it no problem. This is one case where you WANT him to cannon you, because free cannon+pylon.
wow, that's good to know.
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On August 06 2012 10:14 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 10:06 whatevername wrote:
Is high eco baneling bust viable in todays metagame kyrix style? What are it's strengths and weaknesses? Not really. Terrans have gotten very good at defending vs those types of all ins (and hellions kinda shut it down to, roach/ling/bane is much stronger). The benefit would be well winning, but at least at high masters + it is very easily defendable unless the terran is being super super greedy. I would recommend just playing normal or if you want to do a bust roach/ling/bling is much, much stronger then just going ling/bane trust me. Most terrans I play also always go into hellions after their expansion which if microd will easily hold off the bust.
Blades got it right.
That style existed/was seen before terrans really knew how to micro hellions well and would go straight into bio/bio tank after expansions.
It still could work in certain situations but it probably won't win you a whole ton of games at a mid-high masters level due to hellions.
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I think the ling/baneling bust is still viable as a response to scouting a fast 3rd CC from Terran. I've seen TLO do this on his stream. Terran just won't have enough army to prevent you from doing decent damage at the natural to pay for the attack.
Also if you've done the gasless queen opener thing, you can send your queens along for the attack instead of using roaches. They can tank, kill hellions, and happen to deal with banshees as well. Stephano does this once on Antiga Shipyard against some T, in cross spawn positions too, although it was after lair tech and with 3 base economy. Then again the guy invested heavily in cloakshees, so overseers were kinda needed.
So the ling/baneling thing seems to be a viable reaction to certain builds. Or maybe done after different timings, i.e. right after saturating 3 bases, while terran is trying to float after his 3rd.
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EPT
