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The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 339

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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
August 01 2012 14:36 GMT
#6761
What is the standard strategy or strategies in ZvZ at the moment? I'm trying to find a standard, non-gimmicky way to play it.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
Maxamix
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada165 Posts
August 01 2012 15:05 GMT
#6762
On August 01 2012 23:07 erw wrote:
i have some trouble with mech. it happens usually when he's on 3 base and im on 4/5. he pushes with tank thor hellion viking and sieges outside my base and it absolutely crushes everything i have (blord infestor roach ling). im just wondering if there's something you can do to kill him?


Against mech you have to trade frequently so he can,t have the kind of synergy of the high mech numbers. I played a couple of games VS mech terrans now a days. Containing them on 2-3 bases is important and trading frequently. If they get into a position where they are sieged at your front, you are in deep trouble. I found mass roaches to be working well, and if he overcommits to tank that's where you tech switch to corruptor/BL. Trading with burrow roaches helps force them wasting scans since they likely won't have a high starport count.
ysnake
Profile Joined June 2012
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-02 12:07:14
August 01 2012 21:27 GMT
#6763
On August 01 2012 23:36 Salivanth wrote:
What is the standard strategy or strategies in ZvZ at the moment? I'm trying to find a standard, non-gimmicky way to play it.


For openings, it's very map dependent, on most maps you can get away with hatch first, but on most, 14/14 or 14/16 (like in ZvP).

For allins you constantly have to be aware of is the ling allin (which is horrible if you have at least decent control with Banelings), ling/bling allin, very typical nowadays, and the standard 6/7/8/9/10 pool cheeses.

For the unit composition it varies, a lot:
- Roach/Infestor
- Roach/Hydra/Infestor
- Ling/Infestor into Ultralisks (basically, if you get 5+ Ultras out and he is still stuck on T1 units, it's an instant win for you)
- Mutas are good for harassment and shutting down Roach aggression, but they are easily stopped with Infestors and Queens
- Brood Lords are almost never seen, I only saw a guy do it once to me and he won the game, passive game (I lost 4 Zerglings, he lost 2) until 20min mark, that was a fun thing to see.
- Taking a third is also very dependent on what's your situation and what units your enemy has, etc etc, going for a really fast third without the ability to defend it is extremely greedy.
You are no longer automatically breathing and blinking.
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
August 01 2012 22:44 GMT
#6764
I see. Would you recommend any particular one of those styles for a low-league player (Gold) who's fairly new to Zerg? Switched from Protoss.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
BinxyBrown
Profile Joined December 2010
United States230 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-01 23:05:06
August 01 2012 23:03 GMT
#6765
From watching streams it seems like ZvZ's most dominant strategy is hatch first from both players drone heavily, 2 queens, 6 min third while flooding lings off of 2 gas, start lair and go into roach ling or ling infestor, or 3 base muta but havent seen that as often.

Roaches will be the most a move of the strategies, prolly roach hydra is the easiest ZvZ doesnt really get crushed by anything either, good muta play is annoying but beatable because of hydras, roach infestor play is about even for the first several minutes until they get multiple fungals from each infestor, so you have a large timing window to trade hydras for infestors then go infestors yourself. If they fungal poorly though you win the game straight up.
Banelings are like Ice Climbers if they grab you... your dead.
quarkral
Profile Joined July 2012
58 Posts
August 02 2012 04:03 GMT
#6766
So what's the optimal way to play a 14/14 vs hatch first?

What I've been doing is droning up till 21 or 22, making an overlord, and then making 10 lings as the first round of inject pops. Speed finishes shortly after the lings hatch. I pull drones off gas after speed, and then put them back on gas after I get 19 drones (21 supply).

However I frequently get an excess of gas with this early on, but putting the gas drones on minerals doesn't give me more minerals since I have one base mineral saturation already. Would it be better to make more lings earlier? Presumably he loses more income since he can't drone up his natural as much.
ThePastor
Profile Joined February 2012
New Zealand380 Posts
August 02 2012 04:19 GMT
#6767
On August 02 2012 13:03 quarkral wrote:
So what's the optimal way to play a 14/14 vs hatch first?

What I've been doing is droning up till 21 or 22, making an overlord, and then making 10 lings as the first round of inject pops. Speed finishes shortly after the lings hatch. I pull drones off gas after speed, and then put them back on gas after I get 19 drones (21 supply).

However I frequently get an excess of gas with this early on, but putting the gas drones on minerals doesn't give me more minerals since I have one base mineral saturation already. Would it be better to make more lings earlier? Presumably he loses more income since he can't drone up his natural as much.


I was watching Stephano on his stream about 3 months ago (I know, relativly old but hey it still counts!), he tends to build 8 lings as soon as his spawning pool is done, he takes expo and drones. The purpose of these 8 lings is not to do damage or (VERY IMPORTANT) have them die, rather the point is to run around outside his base making him feel pressure and build lings. Often people would respond with 10+ lings and a spine to his 8 thinking he was going to do lots of pressure. At this stage he would be droning up hard at home and catch up or often end up ahead of drones. The good thing is you know exactly what he has (providing he isn't hiding a bunch in his base which doesn't normally happen when you are outside their base with 8 lings) and if he attacks your 8 lings with 20 lings you have time (and speed earlier) to cut drones and build defenses before he gets to your base.

Zasz
Atthasit
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation81 Posts
August 02 2012 05:32 GMT
#6768
Why do you insist on doing damage, what happened to usual 21 expand after 14/14? Personally when I don't see a hatch from my opponent at 21-22 (and I always, always hatch first), I will do everything to prevent you from doing any damage no matter how many lings you've made: 2 queens block, a spine in my natural, sometimes baneling nest before speed depending on how many lings I've seen leave your base.
Presumably he loses more income since he can't drone up his natural as much
is wrong, I will have an even drone count with you but my income will be higher because I am mining on two bases, I also have a queen per hatch so my production is way better than yours. I don't really see this doing anything but leaving you very very far behind against a competent player.

Often people would respond with 10+ lings and a spine to his 8 thinking he was going to do lots of pressure.

I'm not questioning Stephano or anything, but how does this work out if you have an overlord watching his natural saturation and another one watching his natural ramp. I mean, yeah, in lower leagues people might panic and overcommit to defenses. Getting a spine in the natural is a common thing to do after hatch first anyway. That, plus initial 2-4 lings, plus queen will be more than enough to drone comfortably with 8-10 lings dancing around. You get more lings - I see that and get more myself. And by the time your additional lings arrive I'll have 2 banes morphed with ling support (speed should be done or soon be done).
quarkral
Profile Joined July 2012
58 Posts
August 02 2012 05:42 GMT
#6769
Um of course you put a hatch in your natural.......

If you get speed quickly and then don't do anything aggressive with it, that seems rather pointless.


I will have an even drone count with you but my income will be higher because I am mining on two bases


If you have less than 16 drones mining minerals, then whether you have one mining base or 20 mining bases does not affect your income. Hence why if I force him to make lings early on instead of drones, that's more beneficial for me.
Atthasit
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation81 Posts
August 02 2012 05:55 GMT
#6770
Um of course you put a hatch in your natural.......

But you said you're building 10 lings at 21. It's been almost a year since I 14/14'd last time so I don't remember it all that clear, but I think at 21 you have only about enough minerals to put down a hatch OR build 10 lings. So what do you do first?

If you get speed quickly and then don't do anything aggressive with it, that seems rather pointless.
I guess this is why people go hatch first or 15p/16h/17g now mostly

If you have less than 16 drones mining minerals, then whether you have one mining base or 20 mining bases does not affect your income. Hence why if I force him to make lings early on instead of drones, that's more beneficial for me.

Except I can't even make anything but drones until 18. And I'll build 3-4 more before I see your 10 lings leave your base and need to react to that.
quarkral
Profile Joined July 2012
58 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-02 06:28:17
August 02 2012 06:26 GMT
#6771
There's definitely enough minerals to get a hatch down, and even a second queen for it. You get a queen and research speed around 16-17 supply, pull drones off gas, plant a hatchery, make an overlord, and then get the wave of lings at 21.

Except I can't even make anything but drones until 18. And I'll build 3-4 more before I see your 10 lings leave your base and need to react to that.


You're missing the entire question. The question was whether to make lings earlier than 21, like making 6 right when the pool finishes, to make your opponent stop droning earlier. Also presumably you're mining gas with some of your 18 drones?
Atthasit
Profile Joined July 2011
Russian Federation81 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-02 06:47:37
August 02 2012 06:45 GMT
#6772
There's definitely enough minerals to get a hatch down, and even a second queen for it. You get a queen and research speed around 16-17 supply, pull drones off gas, plant a hatchery, make an overlord, and then get the wave of lings at 21.
Okay this is clearer now, your original post didn't mention a hatch at all so I figured you were doing a ling wave before planting a hatch. In this case your 10 lings will be greeted by a completed spine (as opposed to if you made them before planting a hatchery, which potentionally could cause some damage).

The question was whether to make lings earlier than 21, like making 6 right when the pool finishes, to make your opponent stop droning earlier. Also presumably you're mining gas with some of your 18 drones?
6 lings will do literally nothing. I'll have 4 pop right as you're getting close to my base (depending on map size, some maps I think you'll be inside my natural even, but I'll still have those 4 lings popping and with drone support your lings won't be an issue), at least it surely won't be enough to have a hatch first person stop droning so early as you think - I'll just put my spine even earlier and keep droning behind it. As I said before, I don't think it's worth trying to do damage with 14/14, because hatch first people learned to be safe against pretty much anything with a queen block and an early spine. 10 lings (or especially 6 if you make them right as your pool pops) are not enough to scare someone into panic mode in my opinion.
DogDirt
Profile Joined July 2012
United States10 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-02 07:42:18
August 02 2012 06:57 GMT
#6773
Just had a ZvP and i got destroyed by stalker colossus. When i checked the replay other than messing up some of my injects floating minerals my main concern was at 16:50 is this engage what killed me? I didnt realize till half way through what the hell i was doing so i backed off but it was too late. Any tips?

http://drop.sc/232642

gah and another, this time with early phoenix harass http://drop.sc/232645
MstrJinbo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1251 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-02 13:01:54
August 02 2012 13:00 GMT
#6774
Okay this is clearer now, your original post didn't mention a hatch at all so I figured you were doing a ling wave before planting a hatch. In this case your 10 lings will be greeted by a completed spine (as opposed to if you made them before planting a hatchery, which potentionally could cause some damage).


With a 14/14 you can choose to drop a hatch at around 17 or you can easily build 8-10 lings and expand at 21. If you expand at 17 it's best not to send the lings because the defense will be up. So you should just try to catch up as best you can.

The 8-10 lings before hatch can do a lot of damage if you don't react to it well. Spines and queens won't be up in time. So you can't rely on them. You either don't react enough and the lings are running around your base picking off drones or you overreact and the opponent catches up in drone count. Or you build the right number of lings and go into the game with a drone/larva advantage.
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-02 13:55:00
August 02 2012 13:51 GMT
#6775
In the late-game, a Terran army with a lot of marauders and tanks is incredibly hard to fight without Broodlords, right? With this in mind, why don't Terrans go for a heavy marauder-tank style from the start, with some marines to support? I'm assuming that Muta/Ling would wreck this until it hits a critical mass, freeing you to take a lot of bases and gain an economic lead, but I'm not very good or experienced with Zerg, so I could be very wrong.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
Maxamix
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada165 Posts
August 02 2012 14:00 GMT
#6776
On August 02 2012 22:51 Salivanth wrote:
In the late-game, a Terran army with a lot of marauders and tanks is incredibly hard to fight without Broodlords, right? With this in mind, why don't Terrans go for a heavy marauder-tank style from the start, with some marines to support? I'm assuming that Muta/Ling would wreck this until it hits a critical mass, freeing you to take a lot of bases and gain an economic lead, but I'm not very good or experienced with Zerg, so I could be very wrong.


The problem with that style is that you have to add in medivacs in order to use stim effectively. With that being said, you will be choking on gaz as marauders, tanks and medivacs all cost gaz. If you can go uncontested on 3-4 bases, then i might just work but your gonna have trouble getting there. Upgraded speedlings are not that bad VS marauders and if the zerg scouts the vast number of tech labs on your barracks he is going to go mutas. if you want to work a style with factory and marauders, go for an early hellion / marauder push before zerg is able to get the mutas out. You use the marauders to clean the spines and the hellions to clear the lings.
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
August 02 2012 14:12 GMT
#6777
Ah, that makes sense. I'm not a Terran player btw, I was just curious.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
6xFPCs
Profile Joined April 2009
United States412 Posts
August 03 2012 08:48 GMT
#6778
On August 02 2012 15:57 DogDirt wrote:
Just had a ZvP and i got destroyed by stalker colossus. When i checked the replay other than messing up some of my injects floating minerals my main concern was at 16:50 is this engage what killed me? I didnt realize till half way through what the hell i was doing so i backed off but it was too late. Any tips?

http://drop.sc/232642

gah and another, this time with early phoenix harass http://drop.sc/232645


Game 1 (stalker colo on cloud)

notes:+ Show Spoiler +

injects are late from really early on. as in, from the second inject you're late.

super late scouting drone makes no sense, why send it when your pool is finishing? then you keep it at his third even when you've built 4 lings? scout should be at home mining after checking the main, let an overlord or ling spot for the third.

roach warren at 5:00, 2 gas at 5:45, no third base, gonna be 30 drones. very all-in.

terrible injects. nearly 25 energy on each queen at 6:00.

now three gas, 29 drones.

what...? you go for another round of drones (to 37) even after taking a really really early RW and really quick triple gas? basically, you're half-assing a roach all-in? but now adding +1 missile... so you're going to cripple yourself preparing for an attack that you haven't seen, which in fact is not coming (robo just finishing for him at 8:00)

at 60 supply you're floating resources and supply blocked. you need a macro hatch or third already finished.

ok i have another gripe, why did you even scout? you saw forge, gate, nexus, and cannon, all you know is FFE. You have no idea if he's going dt, double stargate, +1 4gate, 7gate, etc. at 9:00. You have seen ONE zealot at his third, you have 7 roaches. You should be trying to figure out what he's doing, and breaking his third because you haven't even started yours yet, so your money is either in fast tech (it's not, your lair will be done 9:30 ish) or army (early roaches).

roaches finally move out. too late. no injecting or macroing at all while you fight, you end the fight at 1.2k/1.1k.

this is just silly, his third is up before yours by nearly a minute. 12:30 you're behind by 14 workers and STILL down a mining base (your third is still empty, looks like drones are on the way though). injects are way off, WAY off, by themselves these missed injects will lose you games.

you've been dead since about 6:00 when you went for super fast roach warren and fast triple gas on two base against FFE. your late injects slowly put your further and further behind, because your toss opponent remembers to chrono.

i don't know what you're doing, you have no idea what units he has. you need a spire and you aren't going to realize it until he pushes out and you see colossi.

15:00, you're on even mining bases but behind by 20 workers. he's going to a-move you, he's been ahead all game.

you reinforce slightly better than he does, but still way slow. you eventually clean up the army, not bad. notice though, that his econ advantage now means he has a 3k/1k bank after trading, whereas you're just about broke and have lost your third. you're also down by 36 workers (he went to 100, weird).

21:00ish you try to start a spine wall, though you're low on drones and have no bank, no infestors, and no BL transition to stall for. not a choice i'd support.

yeah he remaxed pure stalker-probe (107 probes wow) and just walks over you with 4k/1k still in the bank at the end.


Analysis of game 1: your macro is terrible and it lost you this game, no question, case closed, insert gavel.wmv sound byte here. you seem to be in denial about that, even though you know you don't inject well and also float minerals. you also don't take an early third against FFE, and he in fact takes a third before you, which is several kinds of ridiculous. so yeah he just gets a deathball, runs you over, then you get back up so he runs you over again.

Game 2 (phoenix on entombed):

quick notes: + Show Spoiler +
you float 300 minerals at 22 supply like in game 1. that's when you take a third against FFE, just so you know. don't know why you float it here against gateway expo, should be taking one gas early for speed.

you need speed against gateway expo. you go early RW again, but no gas until it's nearly done, weird choice, it delays your roaches, so you could just delay your RW to sync with your gas income.

blind spores, no saturation at natural.

so many idle larvae, for minutes.

transfuse queens, please.

transfuse overlords, please.

yay transfuse on spines!

you need more workers. in general and always. and injects.

idle workers at your main. for a long time. watch for that idle worker icon.


Analysis: still a macro loss, you never get a third up and running after you deflect his one-base thing and he expos. phoenix did tons of damage because you didn't send all 4 queens to engage, and didn't set up a spore at your natural. put a spore down at each mineral line, keep queens inside spore range.

lots of inject issues for you, and you really need to learn to grab that third (break rocks!). you're too comfortable on 2 base.

none of your losses are really due to poor engagements. you have good missile attack upgrades, so your roaches do well, even though your micro prevents you from reinforcing or macroing properly.

tl;dr work on your macro, it's losing you games.
Vechora
Profile Joined February 2012
8 Posts
August 03 2012 12:53 GMT
#6779
Been following filtersc's zerg bronze to master silver/gold lvl video's and I am currently having a huge headache vs any terran that uses siege tanks, my roach army just melts in a few seconds even though I "think" my macro is pretty okay.

2 replays to illustrate the problem:
http://drop.sc/233495
and
http://drop.sc/233496

I get a bit tilted when my army melts to things in 2 tank volleys. Basicly can't look straight at these replays without getting really annoyed.

glad with any tips/hints that can be given, preferably as early in the game as possible.
NFxJehuty
Profile Joined March 2012
United Kingdom58 Posts
August 03 2012 14:18 GMT
#6780
There is probably already a thread with ZvP scout timings but i couldn't find it, so could someone help me out and tell me which times i should sacrifice a overlord or even do that at all. I'm already aware if the Protoss grabs his 3rd and 4th gas at 6:30 there is no 2 base all in likely to come. Also i would like to know what i should try and do to deny a 3rd if a Protoss goes stalker sentry immortal on a map like Shakuras or daybreak, where they just block off with gateways.

I am a low masters Zerg only got promoted but i can't seem to beat any protoss anymore.

http://drop.sc/233504

heres a replay, i accept criticism but please note i only literally got promoted yesterday, so let me know for any huge mistakes i make during the game.
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