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I have several questions, I'm a mid-high diamond zerg but right now, I have no idea how I'm playing at the level that I'm at :/
1. What is a safe opening for ZvZ?
I've been doing 14 pool 15 hatch but I don't know when to get gas (16? 17? 21?). Or is it a lot more easier to open 15 hatch 15 gas 15 pool?
2. In ZvZ, what's the best way to react to a ~10 muta build into Roach/Infestor? I've ran into that on ladder and I don't know what is the best response to it.
3. In addition to that question, when is the approx. time or latest time possible to put down my 3rd when I want to transition into a Roach/Hydra or Roach/Infestor army?
4. In ZvT, what should be the timings of a 3 hatch before pool build if the Terran goes for a CC First?
5. In ZvP, I should take a gas immediately if I see a Gateway first Protoss but about how many lings should I make to defend the pressure? Also, should I delay the 3rd, and if so, how long?
6. Back to ZvZ, how do I check if my opponent has a mass ling or ling/bling attack coming before I can get roaches out? Do I send 2 lings in every minute or so to check?
7. More of a general question. As I play games, I feel like I'm slowing down and don't have the mentality to speed up and do what I need to do (Spread overlords, creep, keep up with injects, etc.) and I find myself just staring at the screen like an idiot. Any tips on how to keep up my focus while I play because I feel like this is holding me back more than anything.
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On July 31 2012 16:33 quarkral wrote:
So LiquidSheth on his stream seems to go roach/infestor in ZvZ before ever getting hydralisks. And this is vs a standard 3 base roach player. His opponent also does the same thing (infestor before hydralisk).
Belial you said teching infestors before hydralisks would lead to just losing from a timing push, but that doesn't seem to be happening? Sheth is planting his infestor tech down before he sees the other guy's infestation pit with an overseer.
Well that's because it's simply safer to go standard roach/infestor than to go roach--> hydra timing --> infestor.
The reason behind this is because of the reinforcing defender's advantage in zvz. When you couple in injects + creep, doing a timing attack against zerg can very easily lead to you losing everything to a reinforcement wave (considering how long it takes hydras to get across the map, and maps are getting larger). Not to mention the roach/hydra timing is a fairly tight window, considering there are no set Lair timings, and your opponent could have gone an awkwardly fast Lair and had infestors out by the time you had hydras. He can then fungal your army just to stall for time while he reinforces, then crushes your weakened army with pure roach.
Most pros would rather not roll the dice with the timing, but if executed properly, a roach hydra 1/1 timing WILL beat anyone teching to infestors (or mutas) straight out of Lair. It simply does not happen that often.
@Belial
On the subject of Ultras in ZvT:
I always go Ultras first in ZvT against Bio. Some maps I never even bother to go broods unless the tank count gets absurdly high (12+). Ultra/Ling/Bane, when micro'd properly and with infestor support, REQUIRES the terran to get a significant number of marauders and tanks. You just have no other option. Ultras tank so much damage when upgraded properly, that with fungal, your banelings can absolutely slaughter marine/tank armies. Even armies with marauders aren't safe until they get higher numbers. You have to use them to the point that the Terran reverts to a marauder/tank heavy army, THEN once you have secured 5/6 base gas, you can double spire BLs. Air upgrades are so, so important for broods.
The only maps I go Broods on is Cloud Kingdom and Ohana. And on Antiga, if the Terran is able to secure a 4th.
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On July 31 2012 18:09 LolitsPing wrote:
I have several questions, I'm a mid-high diamond zerg but right now, I have no idea how I'm playing at the level that I'm at :/
1. What is a safe opening for ZvZ?
I've been doing 14 pool 15 hatch but I don't know when to get gas (16? 17? 21?). Or is it a lot more easier to open 15 hatch 15 gas 15 pool?
2. In ZvZ, what's the best way to react to a ~10 muta build into Roach/Infestor? I've ran into that on ladder and I don't know what is the best response to it.
3. In addition to that question, when is the approx. time or latest time possible to put down my 3rd when I want to transition into a Roach/Hydra or Roach/Infestor army?
4. In ZvT, what should be the timings of a 3 hatch before pool build if the Terran goes for a CC First?
5. In ZvP, I should take a gas immediately if I see a Gateway first Protoss but about how many lings should I make to defend the pressure? Also, should I delay the 3rd, and if so, how long?
6. Back to ZvZ, how do I check if my opponent has a mass ling or ling/bling attack coming before I can get roaches out? Do I send 2 lings in every minute or so to check?
7. More of a general question. As I play games, I feel like I'm slowing down and don't have the mentality to speed up and do what I need to do (Spread overlords, creep, keep up with injects, etc.) and I find myself just staring at the screen like an idiot. Any tips on how to keep up my focus while I play because I feel like this is holding me back more than anything.
1. 14 g 14 p is still the safest opener for ZvZ, but as of late I'm seeing a lot of 14 p 16 h, with like a 21 gas. You can open 15 hatch if you 10 drone scout. Be ready to cancel hatch and put down a pool if you scout early pool. On large maps (like Condemned Ridge) you're probably best off going 14p 16h, there's just no point to risk the 15 hatch against blind 8-10 pools on such a big map, that your drone scout might not scout him in time.
2. It's really hard to react to that style, since it's hard to know it's coming. The best way is to just keep going roach infestor, get a few more extra queens, and BE AHEAD ON UPGRADES. You MUST have 1/1 range/carapace soon after his first 10 mutas arrive, just secure your third base against his muta pressure (it's okay if he gets a faster third) and start 2/2 as fast as possible. Then go for a 2/2 roach/queen/infestor timing, preferably with nydus. You must aim to attack the moment your 2/2 finishes. I've never lost to muta-->roach since I've been doing this.
3. Depends on your opening. Thirds in ZvZ are being put down extremely early these days, as with the defender's advantage and good ling/bling micro, it's very hard to attack into a morphing third to force a cancel. I see most thirds going down between 4 and 6 minutes regardless of the style intended. The only style that has a slightly delayed third is Ling/Infestor, due to how little banes you can morph because of the double upgrades.
4. Err, I believe it's something like 14 hatch, 18 hatch, then pool. I don't think it matters much, it's not really punishable at all regardless of your timing.
5. Yes, you should take a gas immediately. How many lings you pump out depends on his gateway opening. (If it's 2 gate before core, you need quite a few lings and a spine in your main. Make a second queen as well, and after your first inject, make a creep tumor to push the creep down so you can use the spine to help against zealots attacking your natural. Pump plenty of lings if he keeps making zealots, and you cannot allow his zealots to get into position behind your natural mineral line. If it's gate --> core, you don't need as many lings since queens can attack stalkers evenly now with range. Keep using an Overlord to spot for when he expands, the longer he delays his expand, the more lings you make).
You can take your third safely once he drops his expansion, or a little after that. He just dropped 400 mins, so he can't exactly warp in units to stop you expanding. Spread creep to your expand immediately so you can put spines there as well.
6. Yes. Have to keep sending in lings every minute or so, try to run around the back of bases and check the natural gas count (early 4 gas means tech), use OL behind the natural to constantly check drone count as well. Try to detonate your lings on banes as well if you can.
7. The only thing that can really solve this is more games and improving your mentality. You are probably staring at the screen because you don't know what your opponent is doing, so you have nothing to do. Yet you're probably missing injects, not spreading creep as much as possible, not scouting, not preparing lings for run bys, not macro'ing fast enough, getting supply blocked, etc, while staring at the screen. The only solution is to play more games and constantly give yourself mental checks.
I did coaching with Mr. Bitter a LONG time ago (back when he was just getting into the caster gig, and was more of a player) and he would just watch me play and yell at me INJECT. SPREAD CREEP. DON'T GET SUPPLY BLOCKED. WHY ARE YOU WATCHING YOUR ARMY FIGHT INSTEAD OF INJECTING? It literally got stuck into my head. Now once in a while I'll even stop micro'ing my BL/Infestor army just to go back and inject (then I eat a LOLOL double vortex and smash my face into my laptop). Just gotta keep practising.
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Really struggling with two issues.
#1 ZvP Seems like most protoss at my level take a third while getting up colossi. I feel very good getting my fourth up safely and a solid macro lead. But I'm not sure what to do after this point. Typically they just make a colossi ball and I struggle to engage it well much later despite getting upgrades. So far I've been some infestors and going to hive/broods but I'm clearly not engaging correctly.
I would love an explanation of the post third nexus play and engagement strategy.
#2 ZvT I have a lot of trouble once I get to hive. I've typically been going straight to ultras (Stephano style) with a good amount of infestors. That part is great. However while Terran is on a third and I have the map I can never kill them and I find most of my engagements are not cost effective against marine/tank So much so that I'm losing like 3+ armies and losing games with significant macro leads.
How should I engage marine/marauder/tank with ultra/ling/infestor?
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On August 01 2012 00:14 FreeHugz wrote:
Really struggling with two issues.
#1 ZvP Seems like most protoss at my level take a third while getting up colossi. I feel very good getting my fourth up safely and a solid macro lead. But I'm not sure what to do after this point. Typically they just make a colossi ball and I struggle to engage it well much later despite getting upgrades. So far I've been some infestors and going to hive/broods but I'm clearly not engaging correctly.
I would love an explanation of the post third nexus play and engagement strategy.
#2 ZvT I have a lot of trouble once I get to hive. I've typically been going straight to ultras (Stephano style) with a good amount of infestors. That part is great. However while Terran is on a third and I have the map I can never kill them and I find most of my engagements are not cost effective against marine/tank So much so that I'm losing like 3+ armies and losing games with significant macro leads.
How should I engage marine/marauder/tank with ultra/ling/infestor?
I struggle with 1. as well, I think a good solution is a basetrade if (and only if) they try to hit a pre-broodlord timing. Not quite sure, but I've heard that drops/Nydus/runbys are a pretty good way.
#2: im picturing antiga in my mind, cross positions. If you have map control, take a triple expand! You have no need to engage into the Terran's defensive position, tanks are just too good. Might as well chrono your greater spire (don't you wish?) and add ~6 broodlords to force tanks to unsiege, etc. Also, you want to morph your lings into banes. If he moves out, send 4 ultras to a PF! Attack the PF from inside the mineral line, so if they repair the splash will kill them.
Ultra/ling is the comp you want to kill buildings (Nydus? Ultralisk drop harass!? :D), but ultra/speedbane is what you want to kill bio. Fungals are obviously a necessity.
Is stephano's ZvT imba? I played a ZvT, it was 3base vs 3 base and he did massive Eco damage with drops, yet I attacked with ultra/ling/infestor and won the game! I played like a noob, but still won despite having a worse eco (MULES)
Any of you guys have any similar experiences, or was my Terran bad?
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ZvT I think my trouble is it feels like my stuff melts very quickly. Should I be having the ultra/ling behind my infestors and fungaling first? Fungal/retreat or engage? Surround with lings?
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Never have your infestors in front. Ever. If he stims 4 marauders forward, you'll lose them all. If he gets lucky with tanks, you'll lose them all. Not fun.
What I WOULD recommend is sending 1 infestor with 150+ energy to try and get lucky and snipe some marines. But for the engagement, you only need fungal to root the terran army in place (prevent kiting). Your stuff shouldn't melt quickly. Stephano style usually leads into an upgrade advantage, and ultras tank damage like it's nobody's business. If they have >10 tanks I would abandon the ground completely, but they should never get that many tanks if you're trading often.
If you're engaging into a choke, like it seems, your stuff will melt quickly! And again, you need banes with the ultras. They have beautiful explosive synergy that can't be ignored.
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1 infestor sniping that makes a lot of sense. I definitely have an upgrade advantage but I'm definitely not trading often (as my T opponents are often turtling on 3 bases. I'm good about not charging tank lines I'm fighting when they move out and the bio engagements with 6-8 medivacs is more where I'm struggling.
I haven't been using banelines late game modeling my play after late game Stephano games I have seen perhaps this is the problem 
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I hate Terran's who turtle on 3 bases. I had taken the whole map, kept sniping his third, he was COMPLETELY mined out for ~20 minutes before I killed his last building and he left omg. Wait, you have trouble dealing with pure bio with ultra/ling/infestor? Dude just carpet fungal and back away :D Tanks have 13 range, fungal has 9, MMM has 6. You should also try flanks! I think the most simple way is have lings on hotkey 1, ultra/bane on hotkey 2, and infestors on 3. Lings in the back, ultra/bane down the front...it'll be dirty. Here's an example, but with ling/bane instead of ultras:
Example!
Side note: Destiny is amazing.
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Hahaha thanks Mavvie that was amazing.
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What do i do against a 2 base terran who turtles with loads of tanks and vikings. I successfully killed his third but he just sat there and easily defended against my pushes of roaches corruptors and broodlords. Should i have started to drop in his main? or just kept pushing constant aggression?
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On August 01 2012 08:21 KichSC wrote:
What do i do against a 2 base terran who turtles with loads of tanks and vikings. I successfully killed his third but he just sat there and easily defended against my pushes of roaches corruptors and broodlords. Should i have started to drop in his main? or just kept pushing constant aggression?
Neither if you opponent is only on two bases after you deny his third there is no reason to attack him at all. Expand take more bases yourself. Also you only want to be building a lot of roaches if your opponent is making a lot of hellions or is going pure mech
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On August 01 2012 00:47 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 00:14 FreeHugz wrote:
Really struggling with two issues.
#1 ZvP Seems like most protoss at my level take a third while getting up colossi. I feel very good getting my fourth up safely and a solid macro lead. But I'm not sure what to do after this point. Typically they just make a colossi ball and I struggle to engage it well much later despite getting upgrades. So far I've been some infestors and going to hive/broods but I'm clearly not engaging correctly.
I would love an explanation of the post third nexus play and engagement strategy.
I struggle with 1. as well, I think a good solution is a basetrade if (and only if) they try to hit a pre-broodlord timing. Not quite sure, but I've heard that drops/Nydus/runbys are a pretty good way.
What? If he gets colossus and waits to macro up from a third, get corruptors and prepare a broodlord transition. If he attacks, your corruptors should help you in fighting the colossi straight up, hopefully sniping a few before the engagement. If he doesn't attack before broodlords are finished, kill him with broodlords (don't forget to add infestors!)
These approaches are easier said than done, of course, but most maps these days are bad for drops because the third and main are close by for cliff-walking colossi (entombed, antiga, cloud), and you'll end up losing the army for little gain, then losing to the counterattack. Nydus is even worse than drops, bad for similar reasons and taken down easily by just pulling the nearest probes. Runbys are iffy, though generally good, but are worse than usual because runbys are generally only lings, which melt to colossi.
But the only serious, standard response to colossi is corruptors. Maybe if you're roach-maxing and he's greedy in getting both the third and colossi early on, you can kill his third without a problem, and with roach speed against a smaller gateway army and no-range colossi, you can snipe colossi fairly easily. But again, the standard response is corruptors, and I really cannot fathom how neither of you came up with that.
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I am still struggling to get to Gold, so I still play silver. Detailled replys would probably not very helpful to me as I still need to improve my overlord / drone / larva management rather than getting into sophisticated strategy considerations.
When I play versus Protoss and assume FFE, can I go 15P16H with third after lair, or should I rather try to time my third between 4:30 and 5:00?
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On August 01 2012 18:16 [F_]aths wrote:
I am still struggling to get to Gold, so I still play silver. Detailled replys would probably not very helpful to me as I still need to improve my overlord / drone / larva management rather than getting into sophisticated strategy considerations.
When I play versus Protoss and assume FFE, can I go 15P16H with third after lair, or should I rather try to time my third between 4:30 and 5:00?
Go for the faster third man, so long as you dont get cannoned at your third without realizing you should be able to safely get three bases running and operational before protoss can even consider putting any pressure on(save for a few zealots and maybe a stalker while waiting for WG research). Of course this is as you said, after a FFE. Its completely standard for Z to grab their third at around 4 minutes when faced with a FFE or Nexus first. Also, this is a perfect way to practice your overlord, drone, and larva management.
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On August 01 2012 00:14 FreeHugz wrote:
Really struggling with two issues.
#1 ZvP Seems like most protoss at my level take a third while getting up colossi. I feel very good getting my fourth up safely and a solid macro lead. But I'm not sure what to do after this point. Typically they just make a colossi ball and I struggle to engage it well much later despite getting upgrades. So far I've been some infestors and going to hive/broods but I'm clearly not engaging correctly.
I would love an explanation of the post third nexus play and engagement strategy.
#2 ZvT I have a lot of trouble once I get to hive. I've typically been going straight to ultras (Stephano style) with a good amount of infestors. That part is great. However while Terran is on a third and I have the map I can never kill them and I find most of my engagements are not cost effective against marine/tank So much so that I'm losing like 3+ armies and losing games with significant macro leads.
How should I engage marine/marauder/tank with ultra/ling/infestor?
#1 - 200 vs 200 until mothership is out is zerg favoured if your composition is balanced. Hotkeys help a lot, ground army on 1, broodlords on 2, corruptors on 3, infestors on 4. Move broodlords forward by themselves, keep ground and corruptors behind the broodlords enough that they dont run in on their own, keep infestors close to the broodlords to land fungals when they get close. If they blink in, send everything in, run the broods back a bit, turn and shoot. Corruption on everything.
With a mothership out bring overseers and move with a slow siege of spine/spore. Push like a terran does with unburrowing and burrowing spines.
#2 You cant have one build for terran, ultras are good mid game, broods are great late game, get out of ultras after the first 1 or 2 waves of them. If he mechs favour broodlords.
Terran you have to kill their entire army with one engagement or else its pretty much over so build a max army, bide your time, put money in the bank for a remax, siege forward while taking out expansions.
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On August 01 2012 18:16 [F_]aths wrote:
I am still struggling to get to Gold, so I still play silver. Detailled replys would probably not very helpful to me as I still need to improve my overlord / drone / larva management rather than getting into sophisticated strategy considerations.
When I play versus Protoss and assume FFE, can I go 15P16H with third after lair, or should I rather try to time my third between 4:30 and 5:00?
Your main goal is to have around 80 supply @ the 8 min mark. You probably won't be able to achieve that (hell IdrA hits the 75 ish...) but that's your end goal. Most of that supply should be drones, queens, some lings and roaches comming through. I'd suggest to read Belial88's guide to ZvP you should find some quality information there.
Link : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038
GL HF
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In ZvZ:
If you *know* your opponent is going to hatch first, what is the best early pool/all in build you can do vs them to win?
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On August 01 2012 22:42 TheWorldToCome wrote:
In ZvZ:
If you *know* your opponent is going to hatch first, what is the best early pool/all in build you can do vs them to win?
9 pool -> 8 Zergling drone all in with spinecrawlers. But you lose your soul in the process.
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i have some trouble with mech. it happens usually when he's on 3 base and im on 4/5. he pushes with tank thor hellion viking and sieges outside my base and it absolutely crushes everything i have (blord infestor roach ling). im just wondering if there's something you can do to kill him?
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EPT
