EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 336
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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quarkral
58 Posts
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
Also, 6 broodlords is way too few. You shouldn't look for an engagement until you have at least 10. On topic of engaging, with broodlords you only have lings/infestors so that P doesn't blink or walk under your broods and just kill them. You want to poke around with broodlords, and fungal the army, then surround their anti-air with your lings. Ignore zealots  Investing in burrow is also a good idea. | ||
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SurroundSound
106 Posts
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Zeweig
Sweden189 Posts
On July 30 2012 04:46 SurroundSound wrote: Hey guys, diamond terran trying to switch back to Zerg. My question is about meta game in Zerg's matchups as i am only familiar with builds that are months out of date. My question is basically what i should be aiming to do in the early game vs T Z and P. What are my gas timings? basically, what the heck do i do in general?? :D I do 15 hatch/15 pool in zvz and zvt, in zvp I do the stephano build (1st expo @ 3:30, 2nd @ 4:30 and 2 gases @ 6:00) Many say that 15 hatch/15 pool in zvz is plain stupid, but you should really be able to survive unless you face 10/11/12 pool rush, and those are really rare, and kind of meta-game ish... | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On July 30 2012 03:23 quarkral wrote: Do the one which cuts drones at 44; this is the variation Stephano does a lot. That gives you 2 saturated bases before you cut drones, so the economy is decent and you can take a third right after making your round of roaches. Your attack hits at 8:20 with about 7-8 roaches, 6-8 banelings (more if you double gas, but then your third is delayed a little). When do you take gas(es)? How many queens do you make? When do you take the third? Would help a lot if I saw it executed in a game somewhere  | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On July 30 2012 05:51 Tachion wrote: When do you take gas(es)? How many queens do you make? When do you take the third? Would help a lot if I saw it executed in a game somewhere This is probably all you can ask for: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344272 | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On July 30 2012 04:07 Jerubaal wrote: Hiyo, I'm doing ling/infestor to broodlord in ZvP, but I'm having some engagement problems. I usually build about 6 broods and 6 infestors and the rest lings, but when the opponent is going zealot, stalker, archon, the lings melt so friggin' fast that my infesties and broodlords are left vulnerable. Should I just hold the lings back until they try to attack me? Banelings? Throw some roaches in there? More broodlords, more infested terrans, and in general try to fight near spine crawlers. Try to engage with the lings from as many angles as possible. | ||
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Glitch890
22 Posts
I've always had a lot of trouble against drop-happy Terran. The general way my ZvTs have been going is this. I always 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 ovie and double queen, then 4 lings to take towers and leave 2 outside terrans natural/main. Defend hellions or 2 rax pressure as needed, then scout for the expansion. If terran hasn't expanded by around 23 supply I take one gas and get ling speed and then banelings. If he has taken his natural I just drone up to 44 and then grab all four gasses at once. That's the basic framework of my play. I can't tell you how many games I've lost to 2-3 medivacs filled with marines taking out my pool, 3rd, or even my lair occasionally (embarrasing). So I had a couple questions. What is the standard time that Terran gets their medivacs up when going either reactor hellion expand or 2 rax expand? Is it more efficient to have spores, spines or ling/bane to defend (or some mixture of all) and what time should I have these up by? I've tried responding to drops with mutas, but my map awareness just isn't there yet, so I'd like some sort of safety cushion. My second question is a bit more general. I never feel like I can be aggressive in the midgame as zerg. I've asked a couple masters friends this question and they always say other than going mutas, Zerg either has to go all in or defend until Broodlord Infestor. Does anyone have any other viable options for ZvT or ZvP. I've been experimenting with drops a bit, but none of Zergs unit seem to be as well suited for it as marines, hellions or zealots (or god forbid, immortals). Thanks for any help guys. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On July 30 2012 06:27 Glitch890 wrote: Hey guys, just a couple quick questions from a mid-plat zerg if you don't mind. I've always had a lot of trouble against drop-happy Terran. The general way my ZvTs have been going is this. I always 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 ovie and double queen, then 4 lings to take towers and leave 2 outside terrans natural/main. Defend hellions or 2 rax pressure as needed, then scout for the expansion. If terran hasn't expanded by around 23 supply I take one gas and get ling speed and then banelings. If he has taken his natural I just drone up to 44 and then grab all four gasses at once. That's the basic framework of my play. I can't tell you how many games I've lost to 2-3 medivacs filled with marines taking out my pool, 3rd, or even my lair occasionally (embarrasing). So I had a couple questions. What is the standard time that Terran gets their medivacs up when going either reactor hellion expand or 2 rax expand? Is it more efficient to have spores, spines or ling/bane to defend (or some mixture of all) and what time should I have these up by? I've tried responding to drops with mutas, but my map awareness just isn't there yet, so I'd like some sort of safety cushion. I could lay out the tips here, but I figure that just linking the thread would be easier: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341871 On July 30 2012 06:27 Glitch890 wrote: My second question is a bit more general. I never feel like I can be aggressive in the midgame as zerg. I've asked a couple masters friends this question and they always say other than going mutas, Zerg either has to go all in or defend until Broodlord Infestor. Does anyone have any other viable options for ZvT or ZvP. I've been experimenting with drops a bit, but none of Zergs unit seem to be as well suited for it as marines, hellions or zealots (or god forbid, immortals). Thanks for any help guys. Midgame agression has to do damage to warrent the delayed lategame army, which is why most zergs claim it is all in. There are maps that favour midgame agression or don't. Daybreak is a good map for large roach aggression in ZvP, while Cloud Kingdom is terrible for air attacks like drops and mutalisks. In ZvT though, I prefer to be on the defensive and expand aggressively rather than to try and kill the terran in the midgame unless the earlygame was completely wonky. In ZvP you can experiment with macro hatcheries and go for loads of units to delay a Protoss' third, but this generally still requires a decent macro to do right. So you're going to make tons of drones regardless. | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On July 30 2012 07:35 Chaosvuistje wrote: Midgame agression has to do damage to warrent the delayed lategame army, which is why most zergs claim it is all in. There are maps that favour midgame agression or don't. Daybreak is a good map for large roach aggression in ZvP, while Cloud Kingdom is terrible for air attacks like drops and mutalisks. In ZvT though, I prefer to be on the defensive and expand aggressively rather than to try and kill the terran in the midgame unless the earlygame was completely wonky. In ZvP you can experiment with macro hatcheries and go for loads of units to delay a Protoss' third, but this generally still requires a decent macro to do right. So you're going to make tons of drones regardless. Chaos has it right, lategame zerg armies are just so good that any unnecessary delay is bad. ...but if you're still undeterred and want to pursue aggression, my suggestion is to deny the third with the aggression, and not go any further. It's nearly impossible to get a midgame kill unless you're all-in, so my aggressive plays (e.g. I'm a little ahead from early game and have a lot of units due to fighting off a FFE into 4-gate pressure well) are to snipe the third in ZvP and relentlessly throw runbys at or sneaking banes into the third in ZvT (assuming the third is an orbital). Keep in mind that you have to take your fourth when they take the third or else you're more all-in than you might want to be, and you definitely need to do damage with this kind of aggression--exactly in line with what you've been hearing. And keep in mind that you'll be low on drones, so you'll want a few rounds of drones after your giant swell of units (instead of constant reinforcements). One of the TSL4 games is a good ZvP example, on a good map for it: + Show Spoiler + Vortix vs Babyknight game 1: A focus on taking out the third, using both the ramp to the third and the outside path to the third (instead of both the ramp at the third and the ramp to the natural to try and flank for a full army kill) | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
How do you use Ultras in ZvT? I don't really understand them. I feel like why make ultras, when I can just make more ling/bane. I don't really see how ultras are better, and especially if the opponent makes marauders in their army, I feel like more ling/bane would be better than those ultras. Given the map distances, and just playing the game, I feel that going straight to broodlords would be a better choice, since it's only a 20 second difference between the 2. I've tried making ultras recently in ZvT, I've been playing the whole less than 15 mutas, double evo, fast hive style, but when I make ultras they don't seem particularly useful, and when I go straight into broods, it seems much better (granted, my opponents are stupid im sure has a part to do with it). I just dont see why go ultras when you can get broodlords out 20 seconds later, which i think is enough time for you to delay terran to make it work, and ling/bane seems to work better, especially if you focus on flanks. Only time I find ultras useful is if terran maybe goes air maybe? but i dont think ive yet made ultras work against mech/air play, i just lose with my broodlord army and cant get enough money to remax on ultras. Even against mech, some people say ultra/np is good, but most of the time if terran doesn't make tanks and gets air too early, roach aggression works really well, and sometimes I face mass air with lots of tanks that doesnt make ultras too good. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On July 30 2012 09:53 Belial88 wrote: I have a question: How do you use Ultras in ZvT? I don't really understand them. I feel like why make ultras, when I can just make more ling/bane. I don't really see how ultras are better, and especially if the opponent makes marauders in their army, I feel like more ling/bane would be better than those ultras. Given the map distances, and just playing the game, I feel that going straight to broodlords would be a better choice, since it's only a 20 second difference between the 2. I've tried making ultras recently in ZvT, I've been playing the whole less than 15 mutas, double evo, fast hive style, but when I make ultras they don't seem particularly useful, and when I go straight into broods, it seems much better (granted, my opponents are stupid im sure has a part to do with it). I just dont see why go ultras when you can get broodlords out 20 seconds later, which i think is enough time for you to delay terran to make it work, and ling/bane seems to work better, especially if you focus on flanks. Only time I find ultras useful is if terran maybe goes air maybe? but i dont think ive yet made ultras work against mech/air play, i just lose with my broodlord army and cant get enough money to remax on ultras. Even against mech, some people say ultra/np is good, but most of the time if terran doesn't make tanks and gets air too early, roach aggression works really well, and sometimes I face mass air with lots of tanks that doesnt make ultras too good. I find ultras counter tanks and PFs, which is what I use them for. A tank does what, 49 damage with +1 against an upgraded ultra? That's ELEVEN tank shots doing no splash and saving your ling/bane from the big bad siege tanks. So yeah they help break a position that is defended with tanks and mass repair PF. I never go broodlords in ZvT, I guess I really should though. Your arguement for the broodlord is very good! I think the problem is that you need a lot of money invested into broodlords for them to enable you to attack. With ultras, I make 4 then attack, deny a few bases, choke out Terran and conserve infestors then win. TLO STYLE! :D Would love to know what you other zergs do vs Terran. I usually win despite not being sure what to do. Guess my enemies are noobs and don't make enough rauders... | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 30 2012 09:53 Belial88 wrote: I have a question: How do you use Ultras in ZvT? I don't really understand them. I feel like why make ultras, when I can just make more ling/bane. I don't really see how ultras are better, and especially if the opponent makes marauders in their army, I feel like more ling/bane would be better than those ultras. Given the map distances, and just playing the game, I feel that going straight to broodlords would be a better choice, since it's only a 20 second difference between the 2. I've tried making ultras recently in ZvT, I've been playing the whole less than 15 mutas, double evo, fast hive style, but when I make ultras they don't seem particularly useful, and when I go straight into broods, it seems much better (granted, my opponents are stupid im sure has a part to do with it). I just dont see why go ultras when you can get broodlords out 20 seconds later, which i think is enough time for you to delay terran to make it work, and ling/bane seems to work better, especially if you focus on flanks. Only time I find ultras useful is if terran maybe goes air maybe? but i dont think ive yet made ultras work against mech/air play, i just lose with my broodlord army and cant get enough money to remax on ultras. Even against mech, some people say ultra/np is good, but most of the time if terran doesn't make tanks and gets air too early, roach aggression works really well, and sometimes I face mass air with lots of tanks that doesnt make ultras too good. This is the first time I'm putting an input for your Belial, but yeah. Generally, you'd never want to use Ultras against Mech and you know this. Ultras for me a very, VERY, map dependent. If it is Antiga Shipyard and I know I can force an engagement in the open, Ultras shine there. If a Terran overreacts with Marauders, the tech-switch to Brood Lords will be much better since he will have a lot of units that can't shoot air. Also, Ultras are WAY more cost efficient at denying Planetary Fortresses put around the map than Banelings, and at that point, you want to deny bases the Terran has as with the Brood Lord army, you have to go from one base to another, allowing him time to recuperate and prepare for an attack. Ultras also give you map presence, especially if the Terran did not clean your creep very well. With some nice fungals, you can actually end the game with Ultras if you get a huge blob of Marines caught in it, again, Ling/Bling/Ultra is a very mobile force. And, as you know, if Terran overreacts with Vikings (making a shitton of them) you can always tech-switch to Ultras and end the game right there. However, you are asking a question that is very situational and it all depends on how the game progressed. If he is massing up a huge attack without Vikings, you'd want to get Brood Lords. I feel that Ultras are used when you have a slight edge over your opponent and can backstab his expansions quite heavily instead of massing up the immobile force of Brood Lords. <3 your work for community sir | ||
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On July 30 2012 09:53 Belial88 wrote: I have a question: How do you use Ultras in ZvT? I don't really understand them. I feel like why make ultras, when I can just make more ling/bane. I don't really see how ultras are better, and especially if the opponent makes marauders in their army, I feel like more ling/bane would be better than those ultras. Given the map distances, and just playing the game, I feel that going straight to broodlords would be a better choice, since it's only a 20 second difference between the 2. I've tried making ultras recently in ZvT, I've been playing the whole less than 15 mutas, double evo, fast hive style, but when I make ultras they don't seem particularly useful, and when I go straight into broods, it seems much better (granted, my opponents are stupid im sure has a part to do with it). I just dont see why go ultras when you can get broodlords out 20 seconds later, which i think is enough time for you to delay terran to make it work, and ling/bane seems to work better, especially if you focus on flanks. Only time I find ultras useful is if terran maybe goes air maybe? but i dont think ive yet made ultras work against mech/air play, i just lose with my broodlord army and cant get enough money to remax on ultras. Even against mech, some people say ultra/np is good, but most of the time if terran doesn't make tanks and gets air too early, roach aggression works really well, and sometimes I face mass air with lots of tanks that doesnt make ultras too good. Others have brought up ultras as anti-PF, which I agree with. But my main use for ultras is to soak up the ridiculous amounts of marine fire, which is the primary hallmark of a bio-based deathball. What I do is add 2-3 ultras behind a group of 8-12 lings, then run that force in ahead of my ling-bane-infestor army. Lings eat the first tank volley, then ultras grab the attention of every 3-3 dps-machine (a.k.a. marine). This means that the ling-bane-infestor, all weak units, are free to run in relatively unscathed. I do this even after I get broodlords, because one ultra sitting up front with no or few tanks around (i.e. you killed them or they've run to avoid BL and now all gas is in vikings) is something like 5 or 6 seconds of marine-free playtime for ling-bane-infestor. Which is much more than you need to set up a nice surround, fungal, or bane hit. I really don't see why people refuse to mix both BL and ultra, assuming you have enough infestors left from the midgame. 3 broods force tanks to unsiege as well as 6, and you only want 2-3 ultras at most anyway. Basically, I use ultras to tank marine dps, because nothing else really can (roach does ok early, then falls apart when marines hit 2-2 or higher). With chitinous plating and 2 carapace (1+2+2=5 armor) vs 3-3 marines (6+3=9 damage), marines do 4 damage, so 125 marine shots (with no regen) to kill one ultralisk. Plus, if you use them as meatshields, you stop getting frustrated by pathing--even when stuck behind lings, they're doing their job. All this being said, I never make more than 4 ultras. Ever. It's easy to spam out as many as gas will allow, but don't do it; spend the gas on banes if you need to dump it into army quickly (faster build time, and a more critical component). | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Would love to know what you other zergs do vs Terran. I usually win despite not being sure what to do. Guess my enemies are noobs and don't make enough rauders... For the longest time, I've been playing the 'old' style of mass muta (ling/bane/muta), late hive. I'll start hive around when I have 4-5 bases up, after I've made about 20 mutas (so it's not like I never get it, but I think I make it after my fourth is up and running, as opposed to when im taking my fourth). But I've been having a lot of trouble with macro terrans (yea, i know, very rare animal indeed) who open 1 rax FE/CC First into the now-standard fast third (before 40 supply), and do very minimal pressure at all (no banshees, usually some sort of drop or very light hellion poking) and just mass up rine/tank/medivac on 3 base and push out. Usually, a good flank, superior positioning, and micro, I own this, but when terran pushes very slowly, methodically, sieges before creep, it's hard to beat and I can't get broodlords because that would require somehow losing my 20+ mutas to free up supply. So I've been trying this quicker hive style, of going ultras, and well, sometimes I'd get ultras, but they never really seemed to do anything for me - they never came out in time to stop that 3 base push, or, they would come out but terran's push is so late that I could have had broodlords. Maybe I should just only reactively go ultras if I see terran doing this marine/marauder into tank style, but so far when I've made ultras they just sort of felt like dead weight and useless. As for what I do, I just get broodlords, and I'll keep maybe about 20-30 ling/bane to deal with drops (absolutely important these days as terrans have learned just to drop everywhere against broodlord play, and this is on top of the 10+ spines I'll make at all of my bases too), and 8-12 infestors. If Terran makes a lot of vikings, I'll make more corruptors or infestors, depending on the viking, and tank and bio count. And it's just a back and forth and eventually I'll break through and win (losses seem to come from drops, which I'm very very careful against and mindful if I have broodlords, or a strong stim if I run out of infestor energy or tons of split vikings with tons of tanks that I think ultras would not work against either). Even if terran makes a shitton of vikings, I prefer just to make more corruptors or infestors, and it always seems to work fine for me. The only time mass viking is a problem is if terran has a shitton of tanks to deny infestors from turning the air battle to my favor, like 12+ tanks, but in those situations I feel ultras just wouldn't work either. I mean, I understand that ultras can be useful in certain fights. But everyone knows Broodlords are the end-game goal for Zerg. What my question is, is what's the point of going Ultras before broodlords? I think the concept is you use ultras to protect yourself against that 3 base deathball push where lair tech alone would get owned and broodlords would come too late, but ultras take so goddamn long to make as it is, even with the buff, that I think it's worth gambling that extra 20 seconds. I mean, I get that you need a ton of broodlords to be useful, whereas 3-5 ultras are very good (ie ultras are support units, broodlords are not support units), but against that push, lign/bane/muta with 3 broodlords is enough to sort of make terran back off and give you the edge in the battle since it's the tanks that are a problem anyways | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
1) Ultra-based late game army is more mobile than BLs. I am the kind of player who likes to create one to two flanks (when maps allow), and getting ridiculous surface area to attack. This is a more micro intensive, dynamic, and fun playstyle for me, and Ultras figure heavily in that composition. Ultra/bane/ling/inf on one side, ling/bling on another side, and lings on final side -- converge and destroy. Whereas, as you know, Brood-based compositions are more siege based, and highly immobile. 2) Using this Ultra style dictates the composition Terran "must" use -- marauder heavy. Enter the power of the BL tech switch. I know this advice is pretty 2010 but it bears repeating at times. Ultra into BL is brutal and Ts at my mid-masters level often can't hang. 3) Ultras (and flanking Ultras) are great against tanks and tank lines, allowing you to micro banes into bio easier. Not as good as Broods (obviously) but great for a kind of "crush T army -> remax -> raze bases" style. I guess I enjoy them because of the playstyle they force. I am uncertain whether or not they are "better" than BL compositions; however, I think they remain valuable on certain maps, for certain styles, and to dictate Terran compositions in order to exploit the power of tech switching. | ||
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adacan
United States117 Posts
On July 30 2012 06:27 Glitch890 wrote: Hey guys, just a couple quick questions from a mid-plat zerg if you don't mind. I've always had a lot of trouble against drop-happy Terran. The general way my ZvTs have been going is this. I always 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 ovie and double queen, then 4 lings to take towers and leave 2 outside terrans natural/main. Defend hellions or 2 rax pressure as needed, then scout for the expansion. If terran hasn't expanded by around 23 supply I take one gas and get ling speed and then banelings. If he has taken his natural I just drone up to 44 and then grab all four gasses at once. That's the basic framework of my play. I can't tell you how many games I've lost to 2-3 medivacs filled with marines taking out my pool, 3rd, or even my lair occasionally (embarrasing). So I had a couple questions. What is the standard time that Terran gets their medivacs up when going either reactor hellion expand or 2 rax expand? Is it more efficient to have spores, spines or ling/bane to defend (or some mixture of all) and what time should I have these up by? I've tried responding to drops with mutas, but my map awareness just isn't there yet, so I'd like some sort of safety cushion. My second question is a bit more general. I never feel like I can be aggressive in the midgame as zerg. I've asked a couple masters friends this question and they always say other than going mutas, Zerg either has to go all in or defend until Broodlord Infestor. Does anyone have any other viable options for ZvT or ZvP. I've been experimenting with drops a bit, but none of Zergs unit seem to be as well suited for it as marines, hellions or zealots (or god forbid, immortals). Thanks for any help guys. For defending drops having a spore in each base is good. having more than 1 ling group is important as well. Focus medivacs down with queens. Also have overlords in good positions to be able to see drops. Even without good map awarness mutas can deal with drops easily as long as you attack the drop with both mutas and lings (ie you dont even have to catch the drop before it unloads.) ZvP unless he is going for gateway all in i go 3 base muta. Much harder for protoss to defend then for zerg to pull of imo and it is extremely fun to play. My zerg is high diamond for what its worth. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
2) Using this Ultra style dictates the composition Terran "must" use -- marauder heavy. Enter the power of the BL tech switch. I know this advice is pretty 2010 but it bears repeating at times. Ultra into BL is brutal and Ts at my mid-masters level often can't hang. I don't know... tech switches don't seem to work too well for me, and I don't see pros use them that often (sometimes I do though, and this is just my perception, I could be wrong here, I hear terrans qq about tech switches but who knows what level they are playing at). When I go ultras, terran seems to just get more tanks, and I dont know about others, but tanks imo just rapes BL/infestor, in that mass tank, plus mass viking, and bam, I'm screwed - 10+ tanks making sure my infestors can't do shit, and then 10+ vikings (especially if split so terran can then just take the whole map and then be cost inefficient and outmine me, god damn i hate ohana, every game i play on that map comes to mining out the whole map for me and trying to deny terran's 5th, id literally say at least 30% of my zvt is like that on that map) just rape my broodlord army, and I can't go ultras because he has too many tanks. Maybe it's just I've reached a point in the game where I've lost anyways, but that's how I feel like I lose the most with BL/infestor, when they have mass tanks and I don't see ultras as the answer in those situations. I'd love to see a replay of you using ultras, especially a scenario where ultras would be better than mass broodlord. | ||
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