Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
^ You know, I kind of have the same question for a while now, not sure if I figured it out.
But the problem is that this sort of pressure can actually hit you before you have a queen at your third. I think the proper response to it is get a 6:30 warren as if toss was doing a 4 gate +1 pressure, because if Toss just banks his zealots up and waits for +1, pure ling/queen alone won't work and you'll just die when his +1 finishes (which finishes roughly the same time as 4 gate +1 hits, about 8:00). But if you rely on that 6:30 warren, he may just push out with an initial 3-5 zealots without +1 and you'll die, so you need lots of lings (he'll hit before a queen pops) and your queen probably won't be out.
I think the best way to deal with it is maybe a spine at your third, and get a 6:30 warren, and pay really, really close attention to when he decides to move out, maybe even see if his forge is being chrono'd or not, either with an overlord in front of his base or overlooking his natural entrance (cloud kingdom, for example) or lings at the tower. But he can take the tower away from your with 1-2 micro'd zealots, so it can be really deceptive on what he's doing, and if you just pump out only slowlings to deal with it, your economy will just die as Toss, who's tech will be very far behind, admittedly, his econ is chugging along.
I mean I'm just not sure what to do, I still need to play more games against it. It can be very aggravating to deal with something that seems so stupid and bad but I guess I'm not 1200 points masters for a reason.
I don't think I've ever had trouble getting a queen to my 3rd in time. Do you build a queen at the 3rd, or walk one from your main/natural?
A spine, maybe. I've even seen players start evo chambers to block and defend a single spine against zealots. Roaches, no.
If you have lings already built before his zealots arrive in his base, you can slow him down just by running around behind him, and that gives time for more lings to hatch or a spinecrawler to finish.
Last time you asked this, darkforce suggested lings + queen, and if he waits for +1 you may need a spine.
Against 2 gate zealots just build some lings, maybe a spine, but i would just go for lings tbh. if they attack they will always fight against lings + a queen, so you dont have to get overly many lings even because the queen helps alot. if they wait till +1 is done just get a spine and get roachwarren at normal timing (not even necessary because 2 gate zealots means warpgate will be delayed or they are super allin..).
On July 29 2012 04:56 Mavvie wrote: I need help for ZvP...there's a super cheesy opening that's surprisingly amazing against everything but a roach bust... Some replays vs a friend who does this style EVERY GAME, and often wins despite being low plat and i'm diamond: + Show Spoiler +
Game 1: http://drop.sc/229557 I forgot that he does this zealot build, and upon remembering I just herp-derped and lost my third. Failed macro game from there, kind of embarassing (Y)
Game 2: http://drop.sc/229556 I had both spines at third instead of 1 at nat and 1 at third, cost me queens/injects and probably lost me the game. Void ray denying fourth sealed my fate.
Hey guys, I have a question of my own. What is the correct response to FFE into 2gate +1 zealot pressure into fast third (6:30) I know it's a build order loss to any sort of roach all-in, but I just don't know how to deal with 4 +1 zealots at my third at 7:00. while still being able to kill him for getting such a late cyber. I see my options as: 1) Get 5:30 double gas/roach warren, do some sort of roach all-in after scouting 2 gates 2) Build a few spines (How many?) and try to defend with spine/queen/a few lings 3) Mass lings @6:30
After defending, should I: A) Take a fourth due to his super-delayed WG, fast tech to mutas and basetrade if he moves out B) Mass roaches and attack at 11:00 C) Take a fast fourth and fast-tech to hive, then broodlords
My logic is that he is unable to be aggressive until his WG finishes, which is around 10:30. I could easily get 4 bases and mutas before his attack, but I could also try to "just go fucking kill him" before 10:30 because he will have nothing.
I just don't know how to defend it properly and how to take advantage of my "lead". If only Zerg had DTs or immortals...
Against 2 gate zealot aggression, you know that he is seriously delaying his cybercore, so his warpgate is late. So you don't need to worry at all about the usual warpgate stuff between 8-8:30.
Defend it with lings and queens. Run the lings around behind the zealots and pester him and turn around to slow him down to give time for more lings (or a spinecrawler if you want to), then surround him in range of your queens and kill them.
Make sure you leave a few lings at his 3rd base, because protoss is not allowed to expand against zerg while his units are on the zerg side of the map. it's not allowed. Then you have the option of droning for a full four minutes straight because he has no warpgate, or counterattacking his 3rd.
Because there is no threat of a warp-in at 8:10, you do not need 6 minute gases, and you do not need a 7 minute roach warren, unless you want to be aggressive with it. So you end up ahead or even with where you would normally be, even though you are forced into making a handful of zerglings.
Very interesting idea! My thoughts going into game 2 was: If I hold this smoothly, I can take a fourth and skip roach warren for fast mutas because of how delayed any follow-up aggression is. The problem is, however, that his followup involves so much firepower, it doesn't matter much if it's delayed. He likes to go 8gate double robo stargate as a followup 3base all in, so mutas COULD work...we'll have to see
Very nice ideas about leaving some lings at his third, never thought of that! But it would have to be a large number of lings, because he is still making zlots +1 zlots 2 at a time. Good to know that I should hold with ling/queen. I imagine that 12 lings + queen + spine is enough to take on 4 +1 zealots
So the correct followup is to abuse his late warpgate and just mass drones C:
On July 29 2012 06:36 Belial88 wrote: ^ You know, I kind of have the same question for a while now, not sure if I figured it out.
But the problem is that this sort of pressure can actually hit you before you have a queen at your third. I think the proper response to it is get a 6:30 warren as if toss was doing a 4 gate +1 pressure, because if Toss just banks his zealots up and waits for +1, pure ling/queen alone won't work and you'll just die when his +1 finishes (which finishes roughly the same time as 4 gate +1 hits, about 8:00). But if you rely on that 6:30 warren, he may just push out with an initial 3-5 zealots without +1 and you'll die, so you need lots of lings (he'll hit before a queen pops) and your queen probably won't be out.
I think the best way to deal with it is maybe a spine at your third, and get a 6:30 warren, and pay really, really close attention to when he decides to move out, maybe even see if his forge is being chrono'd or not, either with an overlord in front of his base or overlooking his natural entrance (cloud kingdom, for example) or lings at the tower. But he can take the tower away from your with 1-2 micro'd zealots, so it can be really deceptive on what he's doing, and if you just pump out only slowlings to deal with it, your economy will just die as Toss, who's tech will be very far behind, admittedly, his econ is chugging along.
I mean I'm just not sure what to do, I still need to play more games against it. It can be very aggravating to deal with something that seems so stupid and bad but I guess I'm not 1200 points masters for a reason.
I'm afraid we're playing against significantly different builds, Belial. My opponent finishes +1 around 7:00, and is at my third no more than 30 seconds later with ~4 zealots. I didn't check the timings, but it looks like he gets an early first gas, but only mines 100 gas for +1 before taking guys out of it to afford the probes + zealots + pylons. I'd need a SUPER early roach warren to have roaches out by 7:15
Even then, I feel your pain. It's such a skill-less build to execute and ANY followup is basically unstoppable. Seriously, he takes SUCH an early third base...he takes his third faster than I take mine in ZvT. When I first played against it, I thought he MUST be vulnerable to a speedroach timing...but 2x gas at 6:00 (which is standard as you know) gets you roach speed at 10:30, which is when he can already have 2 immortals, 8 stalkers, and however many zealots he made out of his first 2 gateways before WG finishes. We theorycrafted for a while, and I now think that the best response is 2 spines @ 6:00, and maybe 1 extra queen so it's 3Q 1spine if he engages at nat or third, then get a 4th base + macro hatch, drone until 10:00.
Which transition do you feel would be better? 1) 4 base muta 2) 4 base roach/ling into fast infestors/hive 3) Some sort of 3base all-in that hits before WG/immortals
I feel like this build is very similar to the gate-nexus builds, where just because you don't do a certain opening (14/14 against gate-nexus, some sort of roach all-in vs 2gate zealot) he can get away with stupid shit.
On July 29 2012 06:47 Oboeman wrote: I don't think I've ever had trouble getting a queen to my 3rd in time. Do you build a queen at the 3rd, or walk one from your main/natural?
A spine, maybe. I've even seen players start evo chambers to block and defend a single spine against zealots. Roaches, no.
If you have lings already built before his zealots arrive in his base, you can slow him down just by running around behind him, and that gives time for more lings to hatch or a spinecrawler to finish.
Last time you asked this, darkforce suggested lings + queen, and if he waits for +1 you may need a spine.
Against 2 gate zealots just build some lings, maybe a spine, but i would just go for lings tbh. if they attack they will always fight against lings + a queen, so you dont have to get overly many lings even because the queen helps alot. if they wait till +1 is done just get a spine and get roachwarren at normal timing (not even necessary because 2 gate zealots means warpgate will be delayed or they are super allin..).
When I knew what was coming, I was able to get a queen to the third in time. No spines though, my fault for not uprooting one at the correct timing. I'm not sure lings are the best way to stop it...for 300 minerals of zealots that DON'T delay his eco, you have to invest AT LEAST 450 minerals into lings that ARE delaying your eco. That's 9 less drones at 6:30...pretty huge losses, especially considering he has a third. I think that you need 2 queens and 2 spines, with some lings to defend this. He's not going to break 2Q and 1spine, especially if you have a couple of lings to back them up.
Hi. Okay, I've been playing Starcraft for only a few months. I started using Terran but I want to make the move to Zerg as I think it much better suits my style of play. Are there any videos or guides that basically show how to effectively use Zerg from a complate beginners standpoint? As it stands I have only won 1 out of my last 20 games with Zerg I know I am doing a load of things wrong but I just don't know what it is.
Edit: dAppollo's videos were my personal favourites. The only problem is that the builds are HEAVILY outdated...Opening 14/14 is still feasible in every matchup, but I'd only use these builds until you understand the strengths and weaknesses of other builds. You play a 14/14 opening very differently than a 15hatch, or gasless 3hatch styles. Basically learn from the videos, execute the styles, but know that the current builds are VERY different in every matchup (except ZvZ I guess. Even I like to open defensive roaches occasionally when I'm in a bad mood from all the ling/bane all ins).
On July 29 2012 06:47 Oboeman wrote: I don't think I've ever had trouble getting a queen to my 3rd in time. Do you build a queen at the 3rd, or walk one from your main/natural?
A spine, maybe. I've even seen players start evo chambers to block and defend a single spine against zealots. Roaches, no.
If you have lings already built before his zealots arrive in his base, you can slow him down just by running around behind him, and that gives time for more lings to hatch or a spinecrawler to finish.
Last time you asked this, darkforce suggested lings + queen, and if he waits for +1 you may need a spine.
Against 2 gate zealots just build some lings, maybe a spine, but i would just go for lings tbh. if they attack they will always fight against lings + a queen, so you dont have to get overly many lings even because the queen helps alot. if they wait till +1 is done just get a spine and get roachwarren at normal timing (not even necessary because 2 gate zealots means warpgate will be delayed or they are super allin..).
When I knew what was coming, I was able to get a queen to the third in time. No spines though, my fault for not uprooting one at the correct timing. I'm not sure lings are the best way to stop it...for 300 minerals of zealots that DON'T delay his eco, you have to invest AT LEAST 450 minerals into lings that ARE delaying your eco. That's 9 less drones at 6:30...pretty huge losses, especially considering he has a third. I think that you need 2 queens and 2 spines, with some lings to defend this. He's not going to break 2Q and 1spine, especially if you have a couple of lings to back them up.
you have 9 fewer drones at 6:30, but then you have 25 more drones at 9:00, because of his late cycore. If you try to get roaches out in time, you will also have fewer drones at 6:30, but then you will still be behind at 9:00.
as for delaying the 3rd, the most important thing is to make sure that he doesn't bring a probe down and build it for free while his zealots are walking across the map. Make sure that he has to wait for another zealot, or leave a zealot behind.
On July 29 2012 06:47 Oboeman wrote: I don't think I've ever had trouble getting a queen to my 3rd in time. Do you build a queen at the 3rd, or walk one from your main/natural?
A spine, maybe. I've even seen players start evo chambers to block and defend a single spine against zealots. Roaches, no.
If you have lings already built before his zealots arrive in his base, you can slow him down just by running around behind him, and that gives time for more lings to hatch or a spinecrawler to finish.
Last time you asked this, darkforce suggested lings + queen, and if he waits for +1 you may need a spine.
Against 2 gate zealots just build some lings, maybe a spine, but i would just go for lings tbh. if they attack they will always fight against lings + a queen, so you dont have to get overly many lings even because the queen helps alot. if they wait till +1 is done just get a spine and get roachwarren at normal timing (not even necessary because 2 gate zealots means warpgate will be delayed or they are super allin..).
When I knew what was coming, I was able to get a queen to the third in time. No spines though, my fault for not uprooting one at the correct timing. I'm not sure lings are the best way to stop it...for 300 minerals of zealots that DON'T delay his eco, you have to invest AT LEAST 450 minerals into lings that ARE delaying your eco. That's 9 less drones at 6:30...pretty huge losses, especially considering he has a third. I think that you need 2 queens and 2 spines, with some lings to defend this. He's not going to break 2Q and 1spine, especially if you have a couple of lings to back them up.
you have 9 fewer drones at 6:30, but then you have 25 more drones at 9:00, because of his late cycore. If you try to get roaches out in time, you will also have fewer drones at 6:30, but then you will still be behind at 9:00.
as for delaying the 3rd, the most important thing is to make sure that he doesn't bring a probe down and build it for free while his zealots are walking across the map. Make sure that he has to wait for another zealot, or leave a zealot behind.
I suppose, but if I build, say, 3 spines that's only 3 larvae instead of 9. I think the best way is to build a spine at the nat, a spine at the third, dance around with queens + lings and just never let go of that D key :D
Edit: dAppollo's videos were my personal favourites. The only problem is that the builds are HEAVILY outdated...Opening 14/14 is still feasible in every matchup, but I'd only use these builds until you understand the strengths and weaknesses of other builds. You play a 14/14 opening very differently than a 15hatch, or gasless 3hatch styles. Basically learn from the videos, execute the styles, but know that the current builds are VERY different in every matchup (except ZvZ I guess. Even I like to open defensive roaches occasionally when I'm in a bad mood from all the ling/bane all ins).
In daily 356 "Controlling Game Flow," Day[9] examines Elfie opening with an FE, getting a quick plus one and pushing with quite a few zealots against IdrA. This causes the zerg to commit quite a bit to ground forces. Elfie then 2ports, harrassing a lot with phoenixes-exploiting the fact that the protoss forced ground units out of the zerg. This let Elfie comfortably tech and expand and lead himself into a more standard mid/late game.
The idea of pressuring to control your opponent's unit production and really appealed to me, and I was wondering what you all think might be viable to do this with as a zerg.
On July 29 2012 11:14 KTC wrote: Hey TL zerg community! Help a noobie zerg out.
In daily 356 "Controlling Game Flow," Day[9] examines Elfie opening with an FE, getting a quick plus one and pushing with quite a few zealots against IdrA. This causes the zerg to commit quite a bit to ground forces. Elfie then 2ports, harrassing a lot with phoenixes-exploiting the fact that the protoss forced ground units out of the zerg. This let Elfie comfortably tech and expand and lead himself into a more standard mid/late game.
The idea of pressuring to control your opponent's unit production and really appealed to me, and I was wondering what you all think might be viable to do this with as a zerg.
ZvZ if you go muta you force either infestor or hydra , if they go hydras you can go speed banes and clean up shop. If they go infestor, the correct response then you go infestor aswell but hopefully with a better economy.
ZvP I mean you can force certain tech paths, such as blink/ht by going muta, but its just standard unit comps to deal with that, like roach spine festor whilst teching to broodlord infesotr.
ZvT You can't really force anything....I mean if you go ultra the terran will make marauders..but they do that anyway...mutas will generally force thors..but its not really like what elfi did.
In ZvZ is it better to go ling/infestor into ultra or roach ling infestor?
The problem with ling infestor is feels very vulnerable and the damage is less consistent as the roach ball gets higher, but once ultras are out its GG.
The problem with roach/ling/infestor seems to be that there is no late game plan and more of a mid game army.
On July 29 2012 12:27 repulsive wrote: In ZvZ is it better to go ling/infestor into ultra or roach ling infestor?
The problem with ling infestor is feels very vulnerable and the damage is less consistent as the roach ball gets higher, but once ultras are out its GG.
The problem with roach/ling/infestor seems to be that there is no late game plan and more of a mid game army.
Ling infestor into fast ultras all the way! The key to holding roaches is to either get infestors out in time, or engage with spine support, surrounding the roaches. You'll find that upgraded lings are terrific against roaches as long as you have SOME support, either spines or infestors. Once the ultra cavern is done, it's 5/3 ultras and 3/3 crackling/bane with infestors against whatever the hell he has...IT DON'T MATTER! Amazing strat, just be careful with gas timings and spending! Gas around pool timing, speed, bane nest, at around 200 gas double evo, 2 more gas, +1/+1, lair, +2/+2 make FOUR infestors (8-10 if mutas out of opponent) then hive ASAP, 3/3 ultra crackling upgrade, then just win :D I like to make 7 spines if my opponent goes roaches, 4 at third 3 at nat. Use blings to take third, and there's really nothing to this strat. I'm gonna start using it more C:
Again, if you're worried about being vulnerable, just learn the gas/lair/upgrade timings, make spines, surround with lings. It's even ok to lose your third! It's like if you did a muta build and your opponent went mass banshee. There is no counter to infestor/ultra. Edit: there's a reason pros are switching to this style. It's just too good.
In ZvZ is it better to go ling/infestor into ultra or roach ling infestor?
The problem with ling infestor is feels very vulnerable and the damage is less consistent as the roach ball gets higher, but once ultras are out its GG.
The problem with roach/ling/infestor seems to be that there is no late game plan and more of a mid game army.
That's completely preference. That's like is mutas or infestors better in zvp (map differences aside), or is going ultra/bane first or mass spine into broodlord better in zvp (again, maps aside). I wouldn't even say it's like mutas in zvz because mutas in zvz is ... i dont want to say all-innish, but you have to do damage with or else you are really far behind.
That said, personally, I really prefer ling/infestor into 3 base ultras. I feel like it's a complete bullshit style that can't be beaten and is OP (as far as mirror matches go). So I stopped playing good, macro, skill based games and just herp derp mass infestors and spines on 2 base and take a third and rush hive.
Ling/infestor should not feel vulnerable at all. Take your third the same time the opponent takes his (shouldn't take it before, 2 base mass speed roach can kill if you take a third, although i guess that doesnt really matter since he's stuck on 2 base just like you and you are in a better position because you have tech). If the opponent has roach tech, don't take gases at your third and just mass spines at third/natural or between both bases, like a line of them. If the opponent tries to kill your third while it's morphing, make the spines in your nat while getting infestors out, and just kill his third. He needs it more than you, and you'll have a tech advantage and he'll be forced to make even more roaches because he's gotta deal with those mass lings that killed his third and is now streaming into his base.
spines and 8-12 infestors really stops roaches cold. it's ridiculous, just 6 spines and 8 infestors, and 200/200 roaches are never going to break through if you fungal well enough. Add more spines or infestors if you are worried, but imo a 'line' of them should stop all but the biggest pushes, and adding just a couple more spines behind them and you are good. You gotta recognize if he masses roaches, his tech will be SEVERELY behind and when your ultras pop he will have no mass infestors to stop them, no broodlords or ultras on the way, no hive tech, no 4th base, and if he takes a 4th, your ultras will kill it because he made so many roaches early on.
Standard play, though, is taking third, maxing on roach/hydra, adding infestors to it, and lots of roach/hydra/infestor battles to take new bases, deny your opponent's, if he goes broodlords you just counterattack everywhere and kill his other bases and add a spire for mass corruptors if necessary.
When you scout double evo in the main, what other signals can tell you whether it's for roaches or for ling/infestor?
I mean, obviously seeing roaches or seeing +1 melee attack, but that might be too late....
I've had a misread where I think it's ling/infestor and try to take my third early with about 10 roaches and a wall at my nat for defense, only to get hit with a massive roach attack...
I try to look at their spine count at their natural to determine how aggressive they want to be, since a ling/infestor player would probably make spines in response to seeing my roaches, but sometimes people just throw down blind spines that make no sense....
I don't know if I get your question. You take your third when the opponent takes theirs (or, you see they are going ling/infestor so they take it asap because they know they can, but then you just take yours same time so not a big deal).
If you see 4xgas, or 2xgas at natural, that means it's 2 base lair. Double evo means ling/infestor, no evo's means mutas.
Don't worry about roaches. Roaches suck against speedlings until they have +1, which takes about 50+ drones to justify. If you are being roach/ling all-ined off 2 base hatch tech, then you just need to respond to it like the 4 gate like all-in it is, and it should be easy to hold with good macro - make 5+ spines, get lair, win with a huge tech advantage (mutas rape it, mass 2 base speedroach rapes it, infestors is also a good transition because you already made so many spines... you've won the game if he doesnt kill you, basically).
You jsut take your third when your opponent does, and with your overseer or lings, if you see roaches (you should be grabbing xel naga towers anyways) or a roach warren, before making many drones for your third or gas there, you throw down a bunch of spines. You should get them easily before the roaches come. He can't get 10 roaches at your third if he took a third himself, unless he's doing 2 base hatch tech roach/ling all-in, in which case you should not take a third against it, you can't. You should have an overseer in time to see he's going roach tech, in which case you go 'oh snap, he's going to try to bust me, mass spines and get those infestors out asap'. I mean, it should be pretty obvious if he's going roaches... you just see the roaches. You don't need to worry about roaches until after you take your third.
Well, basically I just played a guy on ladder where my overlord saw double evo in his main, so I thought ling/infestor.
I took a fast third and made a handful of roaches, banelings + walled my nat for defense. Later I see a large mass of +1/+1 roaches leaving his natural with my overlord there, but by then it was a bit too late to get enough to defend my third. So I sac my third, he gets his, and I'm kinda screwed.
Yea the build makes no sense, rushing +1 carapace for roaches on 2 bases... I just started laddering and people are doing all sorts of retarded builds like that.
I guess I should just poke at his front more frequently, even after I'm pretty sure I know what he's doing? Just in case he's doing something weird?
Why would you make a handful of roaches and banes? You shouldn't even get a roach warren o_o. Means you can't afford your infestors in time, means you can't defend anything because you have no minerals, makes no sense, even worse if you get roach upgrades too. Dont ever make roaches. And what good is banelings going to do? Only make 4 banes to secure your third against ling/bane aggression, and then only make them reactively to offensive banes. Sounds like that's why you lost...
And why would you take your third before your opponent? You didn't know if he was doing something retarded, like massing roaches, which he did...
Why weren't your infestors out? 5-10 infestors would have stopped that push cold, you just constantly FG when he's out of range, and the spines tear him apart (or in range if you think your spines+FG will take out his army, which it often can do very easily, especially with ling support).
If you know you are going to lose the third, then lose it, no problem, he needs his third more than you - uproot your spines and drones to your natural, go kill his third, wait until you get a few more infestors, then re-secure your third. ezpz.
It sounds like you didn't scout at all or react properly. If he doesn't take his third, then you don't take yours. You should have seen him making roaches with ling pokes, you don't take your third against someone who doesn't take their third and not at least make a ton of lings after about 60+ supply, so in this sort of situation you can trade thirds. 'Retarded' builds are retarded because they don't work, but you let it work by not getting infestors out in time obvoiusly, not getting enough spines, not trading thirds, taking a third when you should not have.
This is what I do - when I see the opponent take his third, I take my third. As soon as I see roaches or roach warren with overseer, I mass spines in my natural. If he pushes out with mass roach, you go kill his third and use your soon to come infestors to prevent him from just running past, and if he doesn't push out, he keeps his third, you re-root those spines to cover both third and natural (maps like shakuras, just put 3-6 spines at each ramp, maps like condemned, make a big line of them). Although really, you are safe to let your third finish and make lings and infestors, and then when your third finishes, THEN get spines, but this is just a way I learned how to do the build, since you don't really need to make more than 50 drones until your third pops.
On July 29 2012 16:34 Belial88 wrote: Why would you make a handful of roaches and banes? You shouldn't even get a roach warren o_o. Means you can't afford your infestors in time, means you can't defend anything because you have no minerals, makes no sense, even worse if you get roach upgrades too. Dont ever make roaches. And what good is banelings going to do? Only make 4 banes to secure your third against ling/bane aggression, and then only make them reactively to offensive banes. Sounds like that's why you lost...
And why would you take your third before your opponent? You didn't know if he was doing something retarded, like massing roaches, which he did...
Why weren't your infestors out? 5-10 infestors would have stopped that push cold, you just constantly FG when he's out of range, and the spines tear him apart (or in range if you think your spines+FG will take out his army, which it often can do very easily, especially with ling support).
If you know you are going to lose the third, then lose it, no problem, he needs his third more than you - uproot your spines and drones to your natural, go kill his third, wait until you get a few more infestors, then re-secure your third. ezpz.
It sounds like you didn't scout at all or react properly. If he doesn't take his third, then you don't take yours. You should have seen him making roaches with ling pokes, you don't take your third against someone who doesn't take their third and not at least make a ton of lings after about 60+ supply, so in this sort of situation you can trade thirds. 'Retarded' builds are retarded because they don't work, but you let it work by not getting infestors out in time obvoiusly, not getting enough spines, not trading thirds, taking a third when you should not have.
This is what I do - when I see the opponent take his third, I take my third. As soon as I see roaches or roach warren with overseer, I mass spines in my natural. If he pushes out with mass roach, you go kill his third and use your soon to come infestors to prevent him from just running past, and if he doesn't push out, he keeps his third, you re-root those spines to cover both third and natural (maps like shakuras, just put 3-6 spines at each ramp, maps like condemned, make a big line of them). Although really, you are safe to let your third finish and make lings and infestors, and then when your third finishes, THEN get spines, but this is just a way I learned how to do the build, since you don't really need to make more than 50 drones until your third pops.
Interesting that you make so many infestors! Blade's guide said 4 unless mutas, then hive, but you say 8-12 infestors then hive...why? Hive is only 150 gas, the earlier the better, so why don't you go 4 infestors -> hive -> more infestors as needed? You shouldn't need that many infestors that early, unless I'm mistaken? ZvZ is my worst marchup, as a result I've learned new styles to improve ^^ haha, am I wrong?
EPT
