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On August 03 2012 23:18 NFxJehuty wrote: There is probably already a thread with ZvP scout timings but i couldn't find it, so could someone help me out and tell me which times i should sacrifice a overlord or even do that at all. I'm already aware if the Protoss grabs his 3rd and 4th gas at 6:30 there is no 2 base all in likely to come. Also i would like to know what i should try and do to deny a 3rd if a Protoss goes stalker sentry immortal on a map like Shakuras or daybreak, where they just block off with gateways.
I am a low masters Zerg only got promoted but i can't seem to beat any protoss anymore.
heres a replay, i accept criticism but please note i only literally got promoted yesterday, so let me know for any huge mistakes i make during the game.
First off because it seems to matter to people, I'm just a high diamond so take this as you will (however I practice with a lot of Grandmasters).
This is a little incorrect. If a Protoss grabs his 3rd and 4th gas at or before 6:30 there's actually MORE of a chance that it will be a 2 base all-in. 2 gas at natural very early usually means a tech-heavy push like the immortal/sentry timing or the 2 stargate sky all-in with a ton of voids.
I usually sac an overlord at about 7:00-7:15. This allows me to see if they're going for any sort of 4 gate pressure into all-in or if they're delaying gates/tech in favor of a slightly later timing but with a lot more stalkers (like 8 gate blink). I also try to keep control of SOMETHING in the front of their base to catch probes trying to sneak out to build pylons. A few patrolling lings really help.
The best counter I've found to sentry/immo on things like Shakuras/Daybreak/Cloud Kingdom where they can just wall off with gates (I think they can do this on Ohana too) is bane/ling with mutas a la DRG style. You can also go ling/bane/festor against them if they do this but you will need drops to get behind the wall. I split 3 groups of overlords up with 1 being significantly larger and the other 2 being maybe 6-8 banes in 2-3 overlords. I always send a decoy OL in as point to draw fire if they have static defenses up. The only people I've found who can truly not take any damage from this were top 100 GMs (7 of them held it but they're also nationally-ranked semi-pros vs me a scrub). You just drop at all 3 mineral lines with more emphasis on your attempts to destroy his economy rather than attacking his army.
In fact, if you can get in and do eco damage while keeping your large group of OLs with the majority of your army in it alive, he can't move out because you'll just drop 978324235263 lings in his bases. Meanwhile you just tech to infestors and add those in for drops (fungal x2 = bye bye all workers). Its incredibly annoying to deal with as a P and I've found it to work on mid-masters and top masters. I've seen it work at GM and pro-gamer levels too (i.e. dimaga's stream), but I lack the necessary mechanics and execution to make it work when I'm the one executing it.
*Incoming big-ass wall o' text and beware I'm a bit harsh with criticism*
-2:05 your pool goes down at 14. Normally you should be able to manage a 14 pool going down at about 1:56-1:58. Not a huge diff, I know but if you're any later than 2:04 on most maps, P can go nexus-first with no fear of any ling counter-attack before cannons warp in. For some reason this P did not take that obvious advantage, but its not huge.
-4:08 natural hatch goes down. You really want your expo no later than 4 minutes. You made a rather large mistake by following his probe out with the first drone, and then with your OL you actually saw that he cancelled the pylon at your nat, but you didn't send a drone out so he got to delay your expo for another 20-30 seconds. This coupled with the fact your queen was about 10-15 seconds late back at 3:32 will put your economy behind due to successive late queens and thusly injects/larva. (update: 2nd queen at 6:58 third queen at 7:10 finally pop)
-6:30-6:42 you stare at his natural gas trying to get a good look at the second one which is good. However, upon seeing 1 gas in the natural you go 7:00 lair right away. If you don't see 2 gas in natural, you shouldn't need to go such an early lair. That early lair really helps against tech heavy pushes like DTs or stargate pressure, but without a scout of stargates or a dark shrine, all this does is put you farther behind in economy.
-7:00 In my build, I like to make some lings right around this timing to deal with zealot/stalker harass. However, this P did not do that to you, so no need. Just thought I'd note.
-7:10-7:20 your opponent sets down a twilight council and then adds 2 gates indicating he may be preparing for some early pressure into a stronger push. This is really when you need to scout in his main. You can almost always see everything they're trying to do if you send in an overlord around this timing and thusly make a good judgement reaction. However, since you didn't see this, you have to play completely blind.
-7:44 You take a gas at your natural. This is a very weird timing for it. Usually you take 2 gas at 6:00 and then 2 more at 8:00, or you take 3 gas at 6:30 and a 4th at 8:00. Either way this gas timing is strange.
-8:00 This is the mother-of-all benchmarks. The reason for this is because this is right around the timing when P starts to get ready to push the crap out of you. If you scouted earlier gates, expect an arrival around 7:40-50 for their first pressure units. If they aren't going for the early pressure into mass-gate all-in build, you can still expect arrivals fairly soon after 8:00. The pro-benchmark is 70+ supply even with say early zealot/stalker harassment (very common at masters and GM) which he didn't do to you at all. You only had 55 supply at this mark which is somewhere in the low diamond range of expectancy. To give you an idea, I hit 55 supply at around 7:00.
-8:01 (just so its another timestamp) You built 2 roach warrens. This is probably a bad idea since you really need an evo somewhere in case of stargate units or just to start some upgrades for your units (you WILL need them). I'd go roach/evo around 7:00 instead of 8 as well.
-11:30 This is another big benchmark because this is when an optimized Zerg will be maxed on the Roach/ling build. Not building things still in eggs, actually completely-spawned units with +1 done, +2 well on its way. Comparatively you were at 118 supply and just starting your units when he was already taking his third with gates for sim city.
-Expansion note on above: What this P did is a very common third for P. They can hold this forward position and really close the time you'll have to react to pressure. By securing this, they also get a backdoor they can easily open to your possible 3rd/4th/5th expo sites. The best way I deal with this is by rallying my units to about the 3 o'clock wide open space. I sometimes move my army up north near the xel'naga tower and then loop around so he won't see me. It allows your army to be between his third and natural, forcing him to decide which to defend since you can still rally units to where he put his gates up and break that down.
-Expansion note on the expansion note: You should've been maxed at this point. Instead you were 118. Comparatively, he had 9 sentries, 6 stalkers (2 warping in animation still) and 2 immortals (1 waaaaay out of position). Imagine if you had 82 supply more of army right then and there. Ez fight even with 9 sentry full of ffs.
-11:31 (and onward) From here, it was just a big downward spiral from the weak economic start where P continues to expand and get a larger economy/army while you were fighting to try to do any sort of damage/stay alive.
tl:dr Your macro needs a lot of work to fight well in masters. Work on getting hatches up sooner, queens sooner, and scout a lot more.
On August 02 2012 15:57 DogDirt wrote: Just had a ZvP and i got destroyed by stalker colossus. When i checked the replay other than messing up some of my injects floating minerals my main concern was at 16:50 is this engage what killed me? I didnt realize till half way through what the hell i was doing so i backed off but it was too late. Any tips?
injects are late from really early on. as in, from the second inject you're late.
super late scouting drone makes no sense, why send it when your pool is finishing? then you keep it at his third even when you've built 4 lings? scout should be at home mining after checking the main, let an overlord or ling spot for the third.
roach warren at 5:00, 2 gas at 5:45, no third base, gonna be 30 drones. very all-in.
terrible injects. nearly 25 energy on each queen at 6:00.
now three gas, 29 drones.
what...? you go for another round of drones (to 37) even after taking a really really early RW and really quick triple gas? basically, you're half-assing a roach all-in? but now adding +1 missile... so you're going to cripple yourself preparing for an attack that you haven't seen, which in fact is not coming (robo just finishing for him at 8:00)
at 60 supply you're floating resources and supply blocked. you need a macro hatch or third already finished.
ok i have another gripe, why did you even scout? you saw forge, gate, nexus, and cannon, all you know is FFE. You have no idea if he's going dt, double stargate, +1 4gate, 7gate, etc. at 9:00. You have seen ONE zealot at his third, you have 7 roaches. You should be trying to figure out what he's doing, and breaking his third because you haven't even started yours yet, so your money is either in fast tech (it's not, your lair will be done 9:30 ish) or army (early roaches).
roaches finally move out. too late. no injecting or macroing at all while you fight, you end the fight at 1.2k/1.1k.
this is just silly, his third is up before yours by nearly a minute. 12:30 you're behind by 14 workers and STILL down a mining base (your third is still empty, looks like drones are on the way though). injects are way off, WAY off, by themselves these missed injects will lose you games.
you've been dead since about 6:00 when you went for super fast roach warren and fast triple gas on two base against FFE. your late injects slowly put your further and further behind, because your toss opponent remembers to chrono.
i don't know what you're doing, you have no idea what units he has. you need a spire and you aren't going to realize it until he pushes out and you see colossi.
15:00, you're on even mining bases but behind by 20 workers. he's going to a-move you, he's been ahead all game.
you reinforce slightly better than he does, but still way slow. you eventually clean up the army, not bad. notice though, that his econ advantage now means he has a 3k/1k bank after trading, whereas you're just about broke and have lost your third. you're also down by 36 workers (he went to 100, weird).
21:00ish you try to start a spine wall, though you're low on drones and have no bank, no infestors, and no BL transition to stall for. not a choice i'd support.
yeah he remaxed pure stalker-probe (107 probes wow) and just walks over you with 4k/1k still in the bank at the end.
Analysis of game 1: your macro is terrible and it lost you this game, no question, case closed, insert gavel.wmv sound byte here. you seem to be in denial about that, even though you know you don't inject well and also float minerals. you also don't take an early third against FFE, and he in fact takes a third before you, which is several kinds of ridiculous. so yeah he just gets a deathball, runs you over, then you get back up so he runs you over again.
you float 300 minerals at 22 supply like in game 1. that's when you take a third against FFE, just so you know. don't know why you float it here against gateway expo, should be taking one gas early for speed.
you need speed against gateway expo. you go early RW again, but no gas until it's nearly done, weird choice, it delays your roaches, so you could just delay your RW to sync with your gas income.
blind spores, no saturation at natural.
so many idle larvae, for minutes.
transfuse queens, please.
transfuse overlords, please.
yay transfuse on spines!
you need more workers. in general and always. and injects.
idle workers at your main. for a long time. watch for that idle worker icon.
Analysis: still a macro loss, you never get a third up and running after you deflect his one-base thing and he expos. phoenix did tons of damage because you didn't send all 4 queens to engage, and didn't set up a spore at your natural. put a spore down at each mineral line, keep queens inside spore range.
lots of inject issues for you, and you really need to learn to grab that third (break rocks!). you're too comfortable on 2 base.
none of your losses are really due to poor engagements. you have good missile attack upgrades, so your roaches do well, even though your micro prevents you from reinforcing or macroing properly.
tl;dr work on your macro, it's losing you games.
Thanks man exactly what i was looking for, I guess the next thing i need to practice is the backspace(spacebar) queen inject method. Too much map scrolling, and learn how to push "D"
On August 02 2012 15:57 DogDirt wrote: Just had a ZvP and i got destroyed by stalker colossus. When i checked the replay other than messing up some of my injects floating minerals my main concern was at 16:50 is this engage what killed me? I didnt realize till half way through what the hell i was doing so i backed off but it was too late. Any tips?
injects are late from really early on. as in, from the second inject you're late.
super late scouting drone makes no sense, why send it when your pool is finishing? then you keep it at his third even when you've built 4 lings? scout should be at home mining after checking the main, let an overlord or ling spot for the third.
roach warren at 5:00, 2 gas at 5:45, no third base, gonna be 30 drones. very all-in.
terrible injects. nearly 25 energy on each queen at 6:00.
now three gas, 29 drones.
what...? you go for another round of drones (to 37) even after taking a really really early RW and really quick triple gas? basically, you're half-assing a roach all-in? but now adding +1 missile... so you're going to cripple yourself preparing for an attack that you haven't seen, which in fact is not coming (robo just finishing for him at 8:00)
at 60 supply you're floating resources and supply blocked. you need a macro hatch or third already finished.
ok i have another gripe, why did you even scout? you saw forge, gate, nexus, and cannon, all you know is FFE. You have no idea if he's going dt, double stargate, +1 4gate, 7gate, etc. at 9:00. You have seen ONE zealot at his third, you have 7 roaches. You should be trying to figure out what he's doing, and breaking his third because you haven't even started yours yet, so your money is either in fast tech (it's not, your lair will be done 9:30 ish) or army (early roaches).
roaches finally move out. too late. no injecting or macroing at all while you fight, you end the fight at 1.2k/1.1k.
this is just silly, his third is up before yours by nearly a minute. 12:30 you're behind by 14 workers and STILL down a mining base (your third is still empty, looks like drones are on the way though). injects are way off, WAY off, by themselves these missed injects will lose you games.
you've been dead since about 6:00 when you went for super fast roach warren and fast triple gas on two base against FFE. your late injects slowly put your further and further behind, because your toss opponent remembers to chrono.
i don't know what you're doing, you have no idea what units he has. you need a spire and you aren't going to realize it until he pushes out and you see colossi.
15:00, you're on even mining bases but behind by 20 workers. he's going to a-move you, he's been ahead all game.
you reinforce slightly better than he does, but still way slow. you eventually clean up the army, not bad. notice though, that his econ advantage now means he has a 3k/1k bank after trading, whereas you're just about broke and have lost your third. you're also down by 36 workers (he went to 100, weird).
21:00ish you try to start a spine wall, though you're low on drones and have no bank, no infestors, and no BL transition to stall for. not a choice i'd support.
yeah he remaxed pure stalker-probe (107 probes wow) and just walks over you with 4k/1k still in the bank at the end.
Analysis of game 1: your macro is terrible and it lost you this game, no question, case closed, insert gavel.wmv sound byte here. you seem to be in denial about that, even though you know you don't inject well and also float minerals. you also don't take an early third against FFE, and he in fact takes a third before you, which is several kinds of ridiculous. so yeah he just gets a deathball, runs you over, then you get back up so he runs you over again.
you float 300 minerals at 22 supply like in game 1. that's when you take a third against FFE, just so you know. don't know why you float it here against gateway expo, should be taking one gas early for speed.
you need speed against gateway expo. you go early RW again, but no gas until it's nearly done, weird choice, it delays your roaches, so you could just delay your RW to sync with your gas income.
blind spores, no saturation at natural.
so many idle larvae, for minutes.
transfuse queens, please.
transfuse overlords, please.
yay transfuse on spines!
you need more workers. in general and always. and injects.
idle workers at your main. for a long time. watch for that idle worker icon.
Analysis: still a macro loss, you never get a third up and running after you deflect his one-base thing and he expos. phoenix did tons of damage because you didn't send all 4 queens to engage, and didn't set up a spore at your natural. put a spore down at each mineral line, keep queens inside spore range.
lots of inject issues for you, and you really need to learn to grab that third (break rocks!). you're too comfortable on 2 base.
none of your losses are really due to poor engagements. you have good missile attack upgrades, so your roaches do well, even though your micro prevents you from reinforcing or macroing properly.
tl;dr work on your macro, it's losing you games.
Thanks man exactly what i was looking for, I guess the next thing i need to practice is the backspace(spacebar) queen inject method. Too much map scrolling, and learn how to push "D"
The lyrics to this song should probably explain exactly what you need:
On August 02 2012 15:57 DogDirt wrote: Just had a ZvP and i got destroyed by stalker colossus. When i checked the replay other than messing up some of my injects floating minerals my main concern was at 16:50 is this engage what killed me? I didnt realize till half way through what the hell i was doing so i backed off but it was too late. Any tips?
injects are late from really early on. as in, from the second inject you're late.
super late scouting drone makes no sense, why send it when your pool is finishing? then you keep it at his third even when you've built 4 lings? scout should be at home mining after checking the main, let an overlord or ling spot for the third.
roach warren at 5:00, 2 gas at 5:45, no third base, gonna be 30 drones. very all-in.
terrible injects. nearly 25 energy on each queen at 6:00.
now three gas, 29 drones.
what...? you go for another round of drones (to 37) even after taking a really really early RW and really quick triple gas? basically, you're half-assing a roach all-in? but now adding +1 missile... so you're going to cripple yourself preparing for an attack that you haven't seen, which in fact is not coming (robo just finishing for him at 8:00)
at 60 supply you're floating resources and supply blocked. you need a macro hatch or third already finished.
ok i have another gripe, why did you even scout? you saw forge, gate, nexus, and cannon, all you know is FFE. You have no idea if he's going dt, double stargate, +1 4gate, 7gate, etc. at 9:00. You have seen ONE zealot at his third, you have 7 roaches. You should be trying to figure out what he's doing, and breaking his third because you haven't even started yours yet, so your money is either in fast tech (it's not, your lair will be done 9:30 ish) or army (early roaches).
roaches finally move out. too late. no injecting or macroing at all while you fight, you end the fight at 1.2k/1.1k.
this is just silly, his third is up before yours by nearly a minute. 12:30 you're behind by 14 workers and STILL down a mining base (your third is still empty, looks like drones are on the way though). injects are way off, WAY off, by themselves these missed injects will lose you games.
you've been dead since about 6:00 when you went for super fast roach warren and fast triple gas on two base against FFE. your late injects slowly put your further and further behind, because your toss opponent remembers to chrono.
i don't know what you're doing, you have no idea what units he has. you need a spire and you aren't going to realize it until he pushes out and you see colossi.
15:00, you're on even mining bases but behind by 20 workers. he's going to a-move you, he's been ahead all game.
you reinforce slightly better than he does, but still way slow. you eventually clean up the army, not bad. notice though, that his econ advantage now means he has a 3k/1k bank after trading, whereas you're just about broke and have lost your third. you're also down by 36 workers (he went to 100, weird).
21:00ish you try to start a spine wall, though you're low on drones and have no bank, no infestors, and no BL transition to stall for. not a choice i'd support.
yeah he remaxed pure stalker-probe (107 probes wow) and just walks over you with 4k/1k still in the bank at the end.
Analysis of game 1: your macro is terrible and it lost you this game, no question, case closed, insert gavel.wmv sound byte here. you seem to be in denial about that, even though you know you don't inject well and also float minerals. you also don't take an early third against FFE, and he in fact takes a third before you, which is several kinds of ridiculous. so yeah he just gets a deathball, runs you over, then you get back up so he runs you over again.
you float 300 minerals at 22 supply like in game 1. that's when you take a third against FFE, just so you know. don't know why you float it here against gateway expo, should be taking one gas early for speed.
you need speed against gateway expo. you go early RW again, but no gas until it's nearly done, weird choice, it delays your roaches, so you could just delay your RW to sync with your gas income.
blind spores, no saturation at natural.
so many idle larvae, for minutes.
transfuse queens, please.
transfuse overlords, please.
yay transfuse on spines!
you need more workers. in general and always. and injects.
idle workers at your main. for a long time. watch for that idle worker icon.
Analysis: still a macro loss, you never get a third up and running after you deflect his one-base thing and he expos. phoenix did tons of damage because you didn't send all 4 queens to engage, and didn't set up a spore at your natural. put a spore down at each mineral line, keep queens inside spore range.
lots of inject issues for you, and you really need to learn to grab that third (break rocks!). you're too comfortable on 2 base.
none of your losses are really due to poor engagements. you have good missile attack upgrades, so your roaches do well, even though your micro prevents you from reinforcing or macroing properly.
tl;dr work on your macro, it's losing you games.
Thanks man exactly what i was looking for, I guess the next thing i need to practice is the backspace(spacebar) queen inject method. Too much map scrolling, and learn how to push "D"
Good to hear that you found it useful.
I would recommend doing the whole vs easy AI macro benchmark. Do the standard ZvP build and see how high a drone count you can get by 8:00. You'll be able to get a feel for just how much idle larvae, late injects, etc matter. Plus, it will get you in the habit of being on three bases.
Hey guys, I recently made it into diamond, and have been having a TON of trouble in ZvT, mainly in the forms of: hellions, banshees, multi-pronged drops. Recently terrans will open mass hellion, which prevents my 6 queen opening from securing a third until roaches. For example, on Ohana if my 4 defensive queens move away from my natural ramp, 10 hellions run in and fry every drone. Also, if I move queens back to defend against cloakshees, he can runby. All the while I watch my third get burned by hellions, completely pinned in my base. Pardon my language, but how the fuck do you deal with this? I can't even secure a third, or any map control beyond my natural ramp.
Later in the game, I usually go infestor/ling fast ultras with upgrades. I have HUGE trouble dealing with multi-pronged drops -- infestors aren't mobile, lings aren't cost efficient (drops behind mineral line) I am considering switching my style to making 10 mutas, then hive + double evos to get fast broodlords out with decent ups. Is this viable? Every last Zerg goes infestors, but why not make 10-12 mutas to get map control + deny drops? I've lost many games from a double marauder drop sniping everything hahaha
I wish I had replays, but I'm sure you guys have experienced playing a Terran who contains you to 2 bases while taking 3 for himself using hellion/cloakshee
Another option I've considered is doing 3hatch roach/ling/Baneling bust, a la Line. I won't have to worry about hellions, and can sieze control of the game while getting a fast lair (considering how far behind he'll be Ahaha. )
Thoughts? Should I be aggressive + expand with map control instead of lolol queens + drones? And are 10-15 mutas to sieze map control/deny drops/be annoying a good idea?
On August 04 2012 08:43 Mavvie wrote: Hey guys, I recently made it into diamond, and have been having a TON of trouble in ZvT, mainly in the forms of: hellions, banshees, multi-pronged drops. Recently terrans will open mass hellion, which prevents my 6 queen opening from securing a third until roaches. For example, on Ohana if my 4 defensive queens move away from my natural ramp, 10 hellions run in and fry every drone. Also, if I move queens back to defend against cloakshees, he can runby. All the while I watch my third get burned by hellions, completely pinned in my base. Pardon my language, but how the fuck do you deal with this? I can't even secure a third, or any map control beyond my natural ramp.
Later in the game, I usually go infestor/ling fast ultras with upgrades. I have HUGE trouble dealing with multi-pronged drops -- infestors aren't mobile, lings aren't cost efficient (drops behind mineral line) I am considering switching my style to making 10 mutas, then hive + double evos to get fast broodlords out with decent ups. Is this viable? Every last Zerg goes infestors, but why not make 10-12 mutas to get map control + deny drops? I've lost many games from a double marauder drop sniping everything hahaha
I wish I had replays, but I'm sure you guys have experienced playing a Terran who contains you to 2 bases while taking 3 for himself using hellion/cloakshee
Another option I've considered is doing 3hatch roach/ling/Baneling bust, a la Line. I won't have to worry about hellions, and can sieze control of the game while getting a fast lair (considering how far behind he'll be Ahaha. )
Thoughts? Should I be aggressive + expand with map control instead of lolol queens + drones? And are 10-15 mutas to sieze map control/deny drops/be annoying a good idea?
Thanks!
For your drop issues, I suggest to invest into static def, it goes along way and cheap way to deal with drops, 1 spine 1 spore per base placed in areas drops most occur on each map. spore+queen focus can take down a medivac making it cost inefficient for the terran player, few lings once drop is spoted with the spine should fend off any marines. (= As well placing overlords in key spots and keeping a eye on mini map to spot drops before they can do real damage.
Going 6 queen style is a nice way to defend vs good terran multi tasking ability if they go for a ForGG style banshee/hellion split harras. Just split queens to deal with both, requires yourself to improve on your own multi tasking ability to defend his.
On August 04 2012 08:43 Mavvie wrote: Hey guys, I recently made it into diamond, and have been having a TON of trouble in ZvT, mainly in the forms of: hellions, banshees, multi-pronged drops. Recently terrans will open mass hellion, which prevents my 6 queen opening from securing a third until roaches. For example, on Ohana if my 4 defensive queens move away from my natural ramp, 10 hellions run in and fry every drone. Also, if I move queens back to defend against cloakshees, he can runby. All the while I watch my third get burned by hellions, completely pinned in my base. Pardon my language, but how the fuck do you deal with this? I can't even secure a third, or any map control beyond my natural ramp.
Later in the game, I usually go infestor/ling fast ultras with upgrades. I have HUGE trouble dealing with multi-pronged drops -- infestors aren't mobile, lings aren't cost efficient (drops behind mineral line) I am considering switching my style to making 10 mutas, then hive + double evos to get fast broodlords out with decent ups. Is this viable? Every last Zerg goes infestors, but why not make 10-12 mutas to get map control + deny drops? I've lost many games from a double marauder drop sniping everything hahaha
I wish I had replays, but I'm sure you guys have experienced playing a Terran who contains you to 2 bases while taking 3 for himself using hellion/cloakshee
Another option I've considered is doing 3hatch roach/ling/Baneling bust, a la Line. I won't have to worry about hellions, and can sieze control of the game while getting a fast lair (considering how far behind he'll be Ahaha. )
Thoughts? Should I be aggressive + expand with map control instead of lolol queens + drones? And are 10-15 mutas to sieze map control/deny drops/be annoying a good idea?
Thanks!
Hm, is it rude for me to still ask for replays? If you get confined to 2 base, that means you aren't getting enough queens to take the third, or are just too scared to try to take it. Whatever the reason, you not having a third is a big red flag.
Against hellions on Ohana, making an evo chamber wall at the natural, plus adding macro hatch to it, means that 1-2 queens can block hellions forever, while the other pair (everyone gets at least 4 queens now right?) tangle with hellions. If he has 10 hellions, you want roaches, at least a handful. It's no longer a waste to get roaches if he makes that many hellions.
Against drops, first you'll want to improve you scouting so that you see them coming. Next, start adding spores to you mineral lines, to deter drops from dropping in that lovely mineral-walled position. In fact, on Ohana I like to add a spore along the main cliff, because a lot of drops like to abuse the open area to fully drop and stim before running in.
Mutas are an ok choice, but you will need infestors eventually. Getting away with no mutas means more infestors with more energy in the lategame, giving your BL timing that extra oomph. But if you're not making it to lategame, add mutas as needed. muta ling bane is still very viable, and there is no rule against having both mutas and then adding infestors so that you have both.
Overall, it just sounds like you need roaches, and this way you'll not have a ruined econ and injured queens before banshees, then you'll have enough to leave some lings or something at home to respond to drops. That's my impression, anyway, and it also sounds to me as though you are just thinking of one game that went horribly wrong, in which case I'd want to watch the replay.
I'm a diamond level Zerg ripping through the ladder. My ZvP timings feel really good (3 hatch no gas) but my ZvT timings and ZvZ timings are non exist. ;;;;
I was wondering if there was anyone who could share timings for the following plays? ZvT infestor ling into broodlord with double upgrades ZvZ roach infestor
In ZvT I get my third running and it's just.... well, I guess I'll do that. And now I need this. I don't have a time where I can go "okay, 2/2 just finished, it's 12:00, sweet." =(
ZvZ is very iffy, but I don't know about that so much either.
I don't know that much for gas timings. I play a very "feely" game where I just get things when I feel like I'll need them. I don't think that style will take me to master or very far past it at the most.
What's a good unit composition against 2-base Hellion/Tank? According to Belial's ZvT, Hellion/Thor is the standard early mech composition atm, which leads me to assume early tank-heavy styles have a weakness, but I'm not sure what it is. Should I rush for mutas?
I see him move to the watchtower with 3 rines or so, I go back with a ling and I see they're still there, so I didn't think he was pushing and cancel my spine crawler.
Then he shows up at my base with 20 marines........
Do I really just have to make blind spine crawlers? But 1 crawler wouldn't even be enough... I guess I can probably get away with 2 blind spine crawlers against diamond scrubs, but like wtf, really?
Okay so I lose an overlord which was supposed to go to his main to look for banshees or fast thirds. But if I send that overlord on a more roundabout path, it doesn't get there in time......... and this is 2p map, it would be even worse on a 4p map....
Hm. You should never have a problem with not having an overlord in place to scout this kind of thing. Check belial's ZvT guide for the timings on scouting this.
The replay shows a 3rax before expo, CC goes down after 30 supply. It's not a 1rax FE, and you've either not bothered to watch your own replay, or you uploaded the wrong game, or I guess it's possible that you might not understand what 1rax FE means.
I think if you see him take the towers with just marines, you should be super suspicious. On this map, you can hide overlords relatively easily, from the natural cliff to the gap between main and third. You lose the 2nd overlord because you leave it idle for a long time. Although i'd call you lucky for having lost it in exchange for seeing the huge ball of marines. That's when you drop 4 spines, which you can do in spite of a supply block.
You then proceed to not engage with drones, leave overlords in the open to die (re-rally your hatches!), and generally demonstrate that you have no idea how to fight marines. You panic build 5 overlords at once. You never start a single spine.
tl;dr You mis-analyzed the game, it's 3rax FE not 1rax FE. you get nasty supply blocks because you're careless with overlords. you show a lack of understanding in terms of how to approach an early marine push (queens in first to soak damage [1 armor], use drones+lings to get a surround, all this to buy time for spines to finish).
On August 04 2012 14:41 Salivanth wrote: What's a good unit composition against 2-base Hellion/Tank? According to Belial's ZvT, Hellion/Thor is the standard early mech composition atm, which leads me to assume early tank-heavy styles have a weakness, but I'm not sure what it is. Should I rush for mutas?
Tank-heavy styles hate mutas and broodlords. They also get run over by lings if you can clear out enough of the hellions (if they go really tank heavy, for example, or keep losing them by running them ahead of tank cover). But yes, technically if they go tank-heavy quickly (e.g. they think a big roach timing is coming), mutas will clean house because the only AA from mech is thors, and they will be thor-light at best if they get a lot of tanks early on.
Alternately, burrowed roaches can catch a tank army unaware, especially if they've confidently pushed out beyond turret detection. Likewise, roach drops can abuse the lack of AA to put roaches right on top of tanks, or to force them to unsiege if you drop in their base.
I think that covers most of the options. Generally you'll need roaches against the hellions, and will be less than able to suddenly go mutas in response to seeing a bunch of tanks.
On August 04 2012 12:21 BlueBoxSC wrote: Hey ZHMT;
I'm a diamond level Zerg ripping through the ladder. My ZvP timings feel really good (3 hatch no gas) but my ZvT timings and ZvZ timings are non exist. ;;;;
I was wondering if there was anyone who could share timings for the following plays? ZvT infestor ling into broodlord with double upgrades ZvZ roach infestor
In ZvT I get my third running and it's just.... well, I guess I'll do that. And now I need this. I don't have a time where I can go "okay, 2/2 just finished, it's 12:00, sweet." =(
ZvZ is very iffy, but I don't know about that so much either.
I don't know that much for gas timings. I play a very "feely" game where I just get things when I feel like I'll need them. I don't think that style will take me to master or very far past it at the most.
In my opinion, ZvT and ZvZ are both more fluid matchups, where timings mean relatively little. You actually NEED that "feely"-ness to respond properly, especially in ZvZ.
So if I may give a perhaps less helpful answer, I would encourage you to not bother with timings for these matchups. Even the gas timings up to 40-45 supply in ZvT, and evo chamber/RW timings in ZvZ (also up to 40ish) get thrown out the window in a lot of cases. Learn to trust that feely-ness--Stephano does.
Maybe someone higher ranked wil want to disagree with me, though.
p.s. More helpful answer: see belial's guide to ZvT, and blade5555's guides to ZvZ.
On August 04 2012 15:13 quarkral wrote: Huh yea sorry I didn't watch the replay, was kind of just pissed off...
the CC was over a minute late for 1rax FE when my first OL saw it, should've noticed that but didn't
Not a problem, just pointing it out. It's important to make sure that you're aware of the difference, else the next time you play vs 1rax FE you'll overinvest in lings or something.
The thing to keep in mind with this 3rax FE thing is that he doesn't reinforce with more marines, and he doesn't have scvs with him. So basically it's one big timing push, he knows for sure that you don't have enough army to deal with his marines. You don't have time to build up enough army to compare, so you need to pull all drones from natural when he commits. Those drones swing the power back in your favor long enough to defend without significant losses. Then you go right back to mining.
Keep in mind that for a long, long time, one spine immediately after the natural finished was standard. Only after the queen range buff did no spine become standard. So I would say that one spine if you feel like he's at all playing aggressive with marines (e.g. sends three marines to the tower, instead of sitting in the natural waiting for bunker) is not that big a sacrifice. One spine means the marines can't kite out lings, can't play tag with queens, and no longer have the initiative when they attack. The benefits of one spine vs no spine is huge, and I think the only reason you don't see an early spine anymore is because pro zergs are trying to compete economically with 1rax FE to 3rd CC, while never seeing any early pressure outside of 11/11 rax, which is easily distinguished from 1rax FE/CC first.
Are all the overlord timings for the first 60-70 supply the same for each matchup? If not, what are the deviations? ...What are the most optimal overlord timings anyhow? I sort of only make a new overlord when Im about to get blocked (around 2-4 supply before capping) Also, when is it ok to be making overlords 2-3 at a time?
On August 04 2012 14:54 6xFPCs wrote: You lose the 2nd overlord because you leave it idle for a long time.
I believe you're referring to me leaving over my natural hatchery for a while? I put it there to check for SCVs building bunkers and stuff. Otherwise I would have to send a drone to check, and a drone doesn't have nearly as much vision, so sometimes an SCV still sneaks a bunker behind the mineral line.
On August 04 2012 14:54 6xFPCs wrote: You lose the 2nd overlord because you leave it idle for a long time.
I believe you're referring to me leaving over my natural hatchery for a while? I put it there to check for SCVs building bunkers and stuff. Otherwise I would have to send a drone to check, and a drone doesn't have nearly as much vision, so sometimes an SCV still sneaks a bunker behind the mineral line.
I meant when it was out in the middle of the map, near the Terran's fourth. I thought I saw it stop there for awhile, could be wrong though.
Definitely continue to leave it over the natural until the hatch finishes.
On August 04 2012 08:43 Mavvie wrote: Hey guys, I recently made it into diamond, and have been having a TON of trouble in ZvT, mainly in the forms of: hellions, banshees, multi-pronged drops. Recently terrans will open mass hellion, which prevents my 6 queen opening from securing a third until roaches. For example, on Ohana if my 4 defensive queens move away from my natural ramp, 10 hellions run in and fry every drone. Also, if I move queens back to defend against cloakshees, he can runby. All the while I watch my third get burned by hellions, completely pinned in my base. Pardon my language, but how the fuck do you deal with this? I can't even secure a third, or any map control beyond my natural ramp.
Later in the game, I usually go infestor/ling fast ultras with upgrades. I have HUGE trouble dealing with multi-pronged drops -- infestors aren't mobile, lings aren't cost efficient (drops behind mineral line) I am considering switching my style to making 10 mutas, then hive + double evos to get fast broodlords out with decent ups. Is this viable? Every last Zerg goes infestors, but why not make 10-12 mutas to get map control + deny drops? I've lost many games from a double marauder drop sniping everything hahaha
I wish I had replays, but I'm sure you guys have experienced playing a Terran who contains you to 2 bases while taking 3 for himself using hellion/cloakshee
Another option I've considered is doing 3hatch roach/ling/Baneling bust, a la Line. I won't have to worry about hellions, and can sieze control of the game while getting a fast lair (considering how far behind he'll be Ahaha. )
Thoughts? Should I be aggressive + expand with map control instead of lolol queens + drones? And are 10-15 mutas to sieze map control/deny drops/be annoying a good idea?
Thanks!
Hm, is it rude for me to still ask for replays? If you get confined to 2 base, that means you aren't getting enough queens to take the third, or are just too scared to try to take it. Whatever the reason, you not having a third is a big red flag.
Against hellions on Ohana, making an evo chamber wall at the natural, plus adding macro hatch to it, means that 1-2 queens can block hellions forever, while the other pair (everyone gets at least 4 queens now right?) tangle with hellions. If he has 10 hellions, you want roaches, at least a handful. It's no longer a waste to get roaches if he makes that many hellions.
Against drops, first you'll want to improve you scouting so that you see them coming. Next, start adding spores to you mineral lines, to deter drops from dropping in that lovely mineral-walled position. In fact, on Ohana I like to add a spore along the main cliff, because a lot of drops like to abuse the open area to fully drop and stim before running in.
Mutas are an ok choice, but you will need infestors eventually. Getting away with no mutas means more infestors with more energy in the lategame, giving your BL timing that extra oomph. But if you're not making it to lategame, add mutas as needed. muta ling bane is still very viable, and there is no rule against having both mutas and then adding infestors so that you have both.
Overall, it just sounds like you need roaches, and this way you'll not have a ruined econ and injured queens before banshees, then you'll have enough to leave some lings or something at home to respond to drops. That's my impression, anyway, and it also sounds to me as though you are just thinking of one game that went horribly wrong, in which case I'd want to watch the replay.
Sorry, if I had access to my main computer I would post them! ^^ I had 6 queens, he had 12 hellions and 2-3 banshees. If I moved down the ramp on Ohana to attack the hellions that are burning my hatch, he would just runby my slow queens. Evo chamber walls are the answer I guess, and probably 2-3 spines if he makes so many hellions. I really like the idea of getting +1/+1->lair->spire->infestation pit->+2/+2->10-15 mutas->double expand (up to 5 bases) -> take all geysers -> hive tech -> ~10 infestors -> greater spire/ultra cavern with map control + huge eco = GG
Just my thoughts on a good way to play off 3 bases! The infestation pit and hive don't cost THAT much, and with the map control mutalisks give I could still afford double ups + mutas + infestors + hive. 5 base zerg may be OP :D Would be weak to a timing that hit before mutas though...oh well.
I like the idea of spore crawlers, I just can never find the will to sacrifice ~8 drones to make a spore ring D:
That game (sorry no replays!) he killed ~40 drones with banshees it was ridiculous. My map awareness was minimal -- I'd defend a marine/tank push, then notice that my third had no more drones O.o I think if I make 3-4 spores in each base, evo chamber + spine + queen wall offs, I'll have no trouble defending 3 bases then doing my muta/fast hive play. I just can't play without being aggressive, I just get upset about terran bullshit xD It's why I really like Line's ZvT aggression, I feel that at the very least it kills every last motherfucking hellion and grants me map control for a good 4-5 minutes to tech/drone up and prepare for a 2base timing (lolterran). I don't think it's an imba matchup, I just think that Zerg really needs to be aggressive and take control in the midgame.
I was in a game, ZvP, regular FFE thing.. naturally i made roaches. I was going to drop most my army into his main due to Cloud Kingdom which has a decently easy defendable third and such. I had most my army loaded up in overlords, though he attacked before i could drop or anything, so i decided to drop my army ontop of his (mainy roaches, couple zergilngs.)
Now.. im not sure if i was just lucky or something.. but usually when you attack with mass roaches, you'll get forcefielded to death. After i dropped my army on top of his.. i won easily.. it semt like forcefields were useless. Again, not sure if i was just lucky or somehting BUT.. question is..
Is dropping army ontop of Protoss army (stalker/immo/sentry) viable to prevent death from forcefields?
EPT
