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I'm going to post this here instead of making my own thread. it's about a game I won (though I could pull a game I lost too, but I dont think its a perfect example).
I can't make ultras work in ZvT. Every time I try to go ultras in ZvT, they get raped, and I just refill on lings and usually hold the push with that instead and eventually go broods. I don't see the point in going ultras when you can just go broodlords. I see the merit in Ultras if terran makes enough vikings to counter a pure broodlord army, like 20+ vikings, or goes air like ravens. But I never seem to make ultras work in the whole get-ultras-before-broodlords-as-a-safer-tech-choice-and-way-to-buy-time-for-broodlords like you can do in ZvP or ZvZ.
I went less-than-15 mutas double evo into fast hive, ultras. I thought especially ultras would be strong because I saw terran going marine/tank instead of bio. The ultras get erased in an engagement I thought I played on level ground, on creep.
So this whole "scout gas at protoss natural" thing just doesn't work...
It costs protoss 75 minerals to just make one more gas. And he can just stop mining one gas in his main, there's no way for you to tell. Yes he might end up with two less zealots cause one gateway is delayed a bit, but when a 7gate hits and you're unprepared two zealots don't make a difference.
Also on many maps, your overlord can't see both gas from a safe location. Toss can double gas, shoot your OL away with a stalker, and then cancel some gasses... or he could just stop mining gas in his main entirely.
Getting an OL into the P main is too late for this. when you see the 6 warpgates, he's already moving out.
Erm, yea... 7gate hits way before lair/overseers come so there's just no way to scout it.......
Also since his units are literally outside your base when your units pop, base racing isn't really an option like with the later 2 base attacks hitting at 10min.......
On August 08 2012 15:11 Belial88 wrote: I'm going to post this here instead of making my own thread. it's about a game I won (though I could pull a game I lost too, but I dont think its a perfect example).
I can't make ultras work in ZvT. Every time I try to go ultras in ZvT, they get raped, and I just refill on lings and usually hold the push with that instead and eventually go broods. I don't see the point in going ultras when you can just go broodlords. I see the merit in Ultras if terran makes enough vikings to counter a pure broodlord army, like 20+ vikings, or goes air like ravens. But I never seem to make ultras work in the whole get-ultras-before-broodlords-as-a-safer-tech-choice-and-way-to-buy-time-for-broodlords like you can do in ZvP or ZvZ.
I went less-than-15 mutas double evo into fast hive, ultras. I thought especially ultras would be strong because I saw terran going marine/tank instead of bio. The ultras get erased in an engagement I thought I played on level ground, on creep.
You walked into a well set up position of the terran with your forces split and four ultralisks in your composition. The other 90% was infestors, zerglings and banelings and you proceed to lay blame on the one unit that didn't die in the engagement. I'd love to go off on a tangent when I attack into a position like that with 3 broodlords but it would atleast make sense to not lay blame on a single small part in my composition in a bad engagement.
Your infestors were not fungalling before the battle, your banelings were rolling down the ramp with the ultralisks coming from a completely different angle, that are supposed to tank for the banelings so they can get up close. It was a terrible engagement, not a terrible unit.
Ultralisks based compositions aren't 'bruteforce-down-a-terran' in whatever possible angle compositions, they are supposed to attack in areas where terran is weak, like from the side. Attacking straight into a well fortified position that goes on for another screen and a half with tanks will obviously not go well for the ultralisk but better for the broodlord.
I'll show you a game of mine where I use ultralisks to the full. I forgot to upload them last time but I have a masters replay here that shows what engagements work for ultralisks and which don't. Note the low infestor count and the high baneling count in the engagements: http://drop.sc/235455
Not unimportantly, I lost that game precisely at the end because of a bad engagement, not because one unit in my composition sucked.
So I am encountering alot of protoss that get an early third base and just hit a 3 base timing right before broods. I find it very difficult to defend with just ling roach infestor so I was thinking maybe I could go ultra instead?
I tries it a few times and it seemed effective. Ultras just rape stalker imortal colo deathballs + a few banes take care of zealot walls. If they turtle you just get drop and go bane rain deny 4th for the win. Anyone have anmy thoughts on this style?
On August 08 2012 23:38 TheMooseHeed wrote: So I am encountering alot of protoss that get an early third base and just hit a 3 base timing right before broods. I find it very difficult to defend with just ling roach infestor so I was thinking maybe I could go ultra instead?
I tries it a few times and it seemed effective. Ultras just rape stalker imortal colo deathballs + a few banes take care of zealot walls. If they turtle you just get drop and go bane rain deny 4th for the win. Anyone have anmy thoughts on this style?
The ultras will really shine if you get infestors to go along with them, FG + 5/3 ultras in a stalker ball will make your day, every single time. If you really want to get the BL out you need a spine crawler wall and you need to delay... a lot...
If you go ultra, don't engage before chitanous plating (sry if i made a mistake there) because it is a must. 2/2 also, you will probably have 3/3 if you start them right as you plant your ultra cavern too. Ultralisk are really upgrade dependant...
Just take care for a immortal heavy ball... immortals do deal great dommage VS ultras...
So this whole "scout gas at protoss natural" thing just doesn't work...
It costs protoss 75 minerals to just make one more gas. And he can just stop mining one gas in his main, there's no way for you to tell. Yes he might end up with two less zealots cause one gateway is delayed a bit, but when a 7gate hits and you're unprepared two zealots don't make a difference.
Also on many maps, your overlord can't see both gas from a safe location. Toss can double gas, shoot your OL away with a stalker, and then cancel some gasses... or he could just stop mining gas in his main entirely.
Getting an OL into the P main is too late for this. when you see the 6 warpgates, he's already moving out.
Erm, yea... 7gate hits way before lair/overseers come so there's just no way to scout it.......
Also since his units are literally outside your base when your units pop, base racing isn't really an option like with the later 2 base attacks hitting at 10min.......
Please provide a replay where it doesn't work... Sounds like you just aren't scouting correctly. The reason Toss would not get gas, is because they want gateways as fast as possible. Sure, Toss could just do some weird take-gas-at-nat-stop-mining-in-main, but that 75 minerals is a lot, at 6:00 that will have quite a big impact on the gateways he throws down at 7:00. And it's not about what gas count he has at 8:00, it's about his gas timings up to 6:30. Toss can't take or not take gas in some weird way up to 6:30 and fake you out without altering their bulid significantly.
Also, a stalker won't kill your overlord by 6:30. On cloud kingdom, your overlord can see his gas count by either hanging around until 6:30 and then pulling away, without dying to a stalker, or you can just poke it out while under stalker fire, and not die because it's not vulnerable for long enough.
7 gate means a combination of 2 scouting factors: 1. No gas at toss natural by 6:30 2. Tons of gateways in his main (ie more than 3, which would be just a 4 gate +1 - you may not see all 7, but if it's a 7 gate, you'll see a lot more than 3).
What you say sounds nice, but I have never seen a practical application of it where Zerg could not Toss' gas up to the 6:30 mark, and get an overlord into the main that couldn't deduce as simple of information as "is there are shitton of gateways or not".
If you could provide a replay where you got faked out, please, do. I guarantee it's your fault, not that Toss is somehow masters of deception.
Chaos - so if Ultras aren't good if Terran splits up well, does that mean ultras are only good if Terran doesn't split up well?
Chaos - so if Ultras aren't good if Terran splits up well, does that mean ultras are only good if Terran doesn't split up well?
Ultralisks aren't good if you attack in way spread out positions that go on for screens, but these spreads generally only occur in one direction. The reason it made me lose that final engagement was due to the fact that I couldn't do an attack on the flanks, I had to plow through the whole tankline from that angle due to that specific point in the map.
Ultras can force Terrans to repositions really easily because of their high mobility, and yes they suck if you do a bad engagement. If you have a wide open map you can focus all your forces in an enormous flank and just take out half the army and retreat or plow through if his standing army isn't strong enough. The most difficult thing for an Ultralisk based army to fight is a spread out tank line with tiny spreaded MM pockets, not because the MM will kill off the Ultralisks, but because they keep them in place for the Tanks to shell away at from a long distance. This is the reason why you need Banelings, because they take out those pockets fast enough for your Ultralisks to continue their march.
Generally you can engage whenever the Terran unsieges to force a siege or just take out a whole part of the army. But once a terran is completely set up, you would rather have Broodlords to chip away at that army than Ultralisks which are better at abusing mobility and unsieges.
Hero goes single gas in the main, gas at the nat at 5:40, followed by a second gas at the nat. Stalker in the main denies overlords.
The last two gateways are tucked in the corner... there's no way an overlord is getting there alive.
Hero didn't take 2x gas in his main... this is why most people send that overlord into the main while cybercore is still building, to make sure nothing like this, or kiwikaki style ffe 2 gate is occurring.
Toss grabbing gas after 6:30 is pretty inconsequential. All 2 base toss need 2xgas, it's when and how they take it up to the 6:30 mark. If they grab 2xgas at 6:31, it's still going to be a gateway pressure (likely with a tech transition, or lots of sentries, is all).
Also, I was asking for a replay of a game YOU played where this was EVER an issue, not a code s level game. Once you get to code s, yea, you can whine about gas fake outs. Of course, you can always fake out toss by making a geyser in your main in front of the probe and then cancelling it, or making your third somewhere else.
DRG also never sac'd an overlord into the main, which he almost always does in his pro games. He would have seen a high gateway count with that overlord and realized what was going on, and made units instead of spores.
DRG made mistakes in scouting, really, that's all. The 2nd gas was suspiciously late, and DRG never sac'd an overlord.
Hero didnt have anything that shot up until 7:00 in that game. DRG had plenty of time to send in overlords. The comment of 'an overlord will never get in there alive' is absurd, by the time a stalker kills the overlord, it should have seen at least 80% of the main.
In hindsight I can see I made a mistake in my game, that's why I didn't post it.
I scouted double gas in his natural at 6 min, then I moved my OL away when a stalker shot it. Well my intention was to poke in with two OLs simultaneously at 7:30 min to check whether it's robo or stargate tech; by then I see the both gas cancelled. By then all I can make are lings and spines, my roach warren doesn't finish until units are at my third. Yes I should have poked in earlier to see the gas cancel, but like wtf, who expects this stuff?
You're saying send the first overlord that goes to the toss natural into the toss main? I've never seen anyone do that.
Also I said "there's no way an overlord is getting there [referring to the corner where the two other gateways are tucked] alive"... not getting into the toss main alive. Toss only needs 20% of his main to hide stuff.
^ why would you move your overlord so far away that you don't keep watch on the gas? On every map in the ladder pool, you should have your overlord in vision of at least 1 of the gases.
And if Toss does a double gas cancel like that, it shouldn't really affect you, as long as you played honestly (7:15 roach warren and evo, lair and speed right when 100 gas is taken, 70+ supply by 8:00), you should have held any such delayed gate push. I'd love to see the replay to see when Toss hit, if he managed to hit a crisp 8:00 timing with reinforcements (sometimes Toss can do weird things where they hit with 4 units at 8:00, but if he took gas it won't have reinforcements, or vice versa).
It doesn't even sound like Toss faked you out, it sounds like you just didn't scout well enough, and Toss did a 'bad' move and you fell for it when you should not have and knew what was up. An assimilator takes only 30 seconds. If you saw Toss had no gas taken at the natural by 6:30, that means he's doing a gateway all-in of some type (basically, you NEED roaches, either it's a 2 gate into core, or 1gatecorefast2ndgateway, or 4 gate +1, or 6/7/8gate, super chronod zealots from single gateway, etc). So you saw Toss took no gas at his natural by 6:30, that's all you need to know. Even a 6/7/8 gate all-in will take gas at 6:30+ at the natural, all Toss need 4xgas on 2 base. It's just what build is he doing, and if you see no gas taken by 6:30 at the natural, that means Toss is doing some sort of gateway all-in and his tech will be very delayed (so even if the Toss is a moron, it's okay, he's the one hurt more because he delayed his tech so much).
Why would you poke with 2 overlords at 7:30? That's wayyyy too late, by then you are going to be screwed if Toss is doing an all-in. Toss throws down their tech from 5:30 to 6:00, that's why sending an overlord at 7:00 will be sure to see everything in good time.
First off, gas. If Toss has no gas taken at the natural, it doesn't matter wtf is going on, all you need to know is get a roach warren immediately, as in 6:31 at the latest, and make ~3 roaches at least when it finishes. It's the overlord sac into his main to know if you need to mass pump units, or if you can drone a bit more.
No. I'm saying you need an overlord by his natural gas, and an overlord by his main. EVERY pro zerg does this, if you say you've never seen anyone do that, it's because you didn't pay attention (the casters/observers dont exactly follow overlords). You can look at even the most recent DRG vs CreatorPrime WCS games at gom, he does it (on ohana, funny enough, he clearly learned his mistake from Hero as he quite deliberately overlord scouted). It's actually a great example of DRG overlord scouting, you can see, when they switch to DRG vision, that he confirmed that Toss took 2 gas in his natural.
100%, every Zerg does this: - Send an overlord to Toss natural's gas, poke in over and over (this overlord literally should be on patrol command) to see how Toss takes his gas up to 6:30 mark. After 6:30, you don't care how he takes his gas anymore. - Send an overlord by Toss main. This overlord can go wherever because a stalker won't be out until about 7:00 in a standard game, and it still takes the stalker a good 20 seconds to kill that overlord anyways.
No, Toss does not need only 20% of his main to hide stuff. You aren't getting it at all...
There are 2 factors to overlord scouting, that will paint a 99.99% of the picture for you on exactly what Toss is doing, and little tips like forge spinning, zealot/sentry/stalkers as his 2nd unit, chrono's on nexis vs forge/gateway/cyber, will completely paint a 100% picture for you if you didn't figure it out already.
1. Overlord by natural seeing his gas intake up to 6:30. No gas by 6:30 = get a 6:30 roach warren, a couple roaches, and speed before lair (something DRG does every game, btw - the speed before lair, whereas lair before speed is the standard vs gas taking Toss) 2. Overlord sac into main to see if Toss has a shitton of gateways or not.
With these 2 factors, you get the picture. Toss cannot hide 5+ gateways using only 20% of his base. Also, with that initial overlord you sent to Toss' natural, that you floated into Toss main and then back behind his natural gas in a safe spot well before cybercore is even planted, you should know exactly where Toss put his pylons.
So 2xgas taken quickly? Is the main full of a shitton of gateways, or did I not see a single building? Toss cannot hide gateways, but he CAN hide tech. So 2x gas + empty base = double stargate. 2xgas and not many gateways, just like a couple extra? That's probably DTs. 2xgas and shitton of gateways? Blink.
0 gas and an empty base? It's 4 gate +1 and the 4 gates are hidden in that 20%, and it's unlikely even then that he can hide 4 gateways from you, 4 gateways takes up a ton of space. 0 gas and a shitton of gateways? He can't hide 8 gateways, you'll see that shit and know exactly what's up.
Check my ZvP guide as well. There's a couple replays I post where you can watch my POV and see how I scout and know exactly what's up, even though I don't see the DT shrine or even Twilight council, or I don't see the double stargates, or how I knew exactly the guy was doing a 6/7/8 gate.
Please, post a replay of a Toss hiding shit from you. I guarantee it's a fault on your own. Maybe it's possible for Toss to hide shit on, say, Shattered Temple, at Code S level. But I sincerely doubt you will ever run into a game where you truly don't know what Toss is doing AND you scouted perfectly.
And by the way, Toss can't cancel his gas at 7:30. Sounds like Toss just took 2xgas at 6:30+, which you should have ignored and realized he was doing a gateway all-in of some type.
Your overlord by his natural gas shouldn't be out of range of his natural gas. It should always be next to the geyser, at least one of them.
http://drop.sc/235598 Can someone tell me why i lost this game? I feel the game was complete mirror but somehow i just had 50supply deficit. Its zvz we both max on roaches theres no major engage untill end we have similar drone count, similar queen energy, similar builds, but somehow im just 30 roaches down.. I dont understant it
Edit: that drone round at 11:30 might be overdrone but its not as much .. dont know
On August 09 2012 06:33 Veriol wrote: http://drop.sc/235598 Can someone tell me why i lost this game? I feel the game was complete mirror but somehow i just had 50supply deficit. Its zvz we both max on roaches theres no major engage untill end we have similar drone count, similar queen energy, similar builds, but somehow im just 30 roaches down.. I dont understant it
Edit: that drone round at 11:30 might be overdrone but its not as much .. dont know
Since 8 till 12 min he has almost 10 drones more mining than you. Thats 4 min of slightly better income which resulted in him having superior economy and roach number
All that gas at Toss' natural talk got me thinking Can you determine by the gas count of toss if he is expanding or not? Or am I just gonna have to keep a ling at his third to scout for it?
^ What exactly do you mean? Like a super fast third taken before 7:00? Or if Toss is going to 2 base all-in or play a standard robo/sg expand (third)?
If Toss is doing a super fast FFE 1 gate Cyber into Third, toss will have no gas at his natural and it can look like a 6/7/8 gate all-in, especially because he doesn't take gas at his natural and he'll have a stalker made instead of sentry. This is just a matter of you paying attention, and seeing him send out that probe from his front with the lings or overlord watching the front of his base, or a ling by his third or an overlord at his third (i send my 26 overlord to Toss' third).
As for standard play, ie is toss doing a 2 base all-in or taking ~9:00 third, you really can't tell until you send an overseer and see 99% of Toss' base and see if he has 1-5 gateways, or 6+ gateways and is all-inning. With a good overlord scout, you might be able to figure this out, but really you won't know until overseer.
But really... you shouldn't even need to make an overseer. An immortal/sentry all-in, the latest of all-ins, pushes out by 9:30, as in at 9:00 he's working his pylon down, moving forward his units, trying to move forward a probe, etc. Just like when trying to see if Toss is 4 gateing or going 3 gate sentry expand by seeing him put a pylon on the low ground, move forward his units in a defensive posture toward his expo, and throw down the expo by 5:30, you should be able to tell what Toss is doing by how he postures his units.
So on Cloud Kingdom, at ~9:00+, is Toss going toward his third, putting a pylon over there, etc? Or is he moving toward that ramp with the rocks on it, with a probe? It should be pretty obvious, and if Toss doesn't grab a third by about 10:00, then he's definitely all-inning.
But I would recommend making an overseer to check for sure. But by the time your overseer is done morphing, Toss' all-in should already have pushed out. Ie, before your lair is finished and you choose a tech route to go, you should see Toss moving out or posturing to take his third or not.
^Could toss be faking a third before heading out with whatever all in? (placing a pylon@3rd and clearing any ling scouts, and then heading to my bases) or does that take up too much time for toss?
On August 09 2012 07:43 Monsyphon wrote: All that gas at Toss' natural talk got me thinking Can you determine by the gas count of toss if he is expanding or not? Or am I just gonna have to keep a ling at his third to scout for it?
The gas count isn't really about how much gas he needs, it'sabout how much minerals he needs. The earlier he takes gas, the less minerals he's using. Gateway builds have late gas because he has to build a ton of gateways early enough to coincide with warpgate.
I don't know if it can be a good indicator of his future intentions or not, apart from how many gateways he is building.
I've been having trouble fending off 2 base blink stalker +2 pushes. Even when I have decent knowledge of it coming I can't seem to stop it. I think my main problem this game is that I don't get a macro hatch at the normal 8:00 mark. My injects were fine and my drone count was a bit low however.
On August 09 2012 09:46 Felvo wrote: I've been having trouble fending off 2 base blink stalker +2 pushes. Even when I have decent knowledge of it coming I can't seem to stop it. I think my main problem this game is that I don't get a macro hatch at the normal 8:00 mark. My injects were fine and my drone count was a bit low however.
Biggest issue is that you have no zergling speed....zerglings are very important against blink stalkers....also making zerglings a bit earlier to gain full mapcontrol and using them to scout or/and deny the forward pylon/probe is a good idea....if you wanna be safe against 2 base stuff like this just make a little less drones and have your speedlings up.....and a macro hatch is needed to pump out lings
EPT
