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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
klil pylon block first or just take third in zvp?
Go test it in a YABOT. I believe that taking the third straight away would be better, but personally, i always get my 4 lings and work down the pylon and just go 2nd queen before third (which many pros, like drg, do anyways even if not pylon blocked), because of cannon rushes. Certain maps or spawns, like say Shakuras Plateau, if they commit to a hardcore cannon rush on your third on that high ground, if you only made anything less than 8 lings, your going to lose that third.
I don't know why you dont see cannon rushing of the third more often at the pro level, but imo the risk just isn't worth it. I guess if you really were to do it in a safe manner, you would make the third and then have a single drone follow the probe. Although I'm not sure if that would always really be safe due to the number of spots that exist where Toss walls in their probe and then glitches it out with a cannon and your 4 lings can only hit it with 1 ling at a time.
omg h2p cloud zvp
Mass spines is only meant to buy about 20 seconds of crucial time for you when a 3 base toss with 3+ colossus push comes at you before broodlords, especially 3 base all-in ones (lets face it, if toss doesnt grab his fourth after like 15:00 thats pretty allin, no way he'll have mothership or carriers in time).
If Toss just goes around from your fourth like toward your natural, you should see in plenty of time, and with overlords pooping creep, or creep spread between bases, you should move up your spines in time to the choke. Besides, FG him in that choke over and over for 20 seconds until your broods pop. If he commits into your base, you lose a hatch that you can remake instantly and you kill his entire army, so win for you.
You should try working on your creep spread too. You should have creep above the high ground of your 4th by the time you take your fourth, and if not, use some overlords, overseers, and changelings to gain vision.
You can also just spam mass IT when Toss tries to siege you, from either your fourth or natural, to buy that 20 seconds until broodlords pop, too.
When going fast third recently, what I've been doing is laying a single tumor down with both the first queen to get to my natural and to my third, to get 2 tracks going. In ZvT, terran does a lot of scanning and killing creep, but ZvP is more about 1 big battle, so by the time of the big battle, you usually have creep out just as far, even though you've only started with a single tumor. You should also spend excess energy with queens to lay down tumors always too. After a round of injects, I'll check my queens if any have excess energy, and if they do, I'll go lay down creep, and they'll be back before the inject finishes.
Finally, if your creep spread is bad, I recommend you always get overlord speed. Select all overlords pooled at home, drop creep, send them somewhere, then shift+left click on the selection of overlords in bottom middle box, so that way only a single overlord goes to the spot you move-commanded to, repeat (this is called cloning, liquipeidia it up). Walla, instant creep spread, especially if you grab your queens for a sec to plant down some creep.
Here's a ZvP I played recently on Cloud, to give you an idea of how to play it. And yea, mutas suck, I only go mutas if I see toss open robo (either robo expand or immortal/sentry all-in, doesnt matter).
http://drop.sc/236516
Also note that I put over 12 spines at my 5th and 6th bases later in the game, because of the immobiljity of broodlord/infestor, and because, why not, it's free (just go to 100 drones, make 30 spines for free, ezpz). On a side note, I also like to re-root the 20+ spines I make while teching up to hive, to protect expos, since you aren't worried about a frontal attack anymore once broodlords are out. Also, the sim city around my greater spire to prevent snipes (though that doesnt factor into this game).
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Why is it in professional games they never do shit with their helions, but in an actual match they just herp-derp them and kill 100 drones?
Some kind of "let's make helions appear balance conspiracy" ? or am I missing the secret code to make a Terran not push in with their first four helions?
Edit: I am assuming it is because they know the Zerg player will split well enough it wont be worth it? Seriously never makes sense when I watch a pro-game.
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I feel so lost when playing Terran. Can someone recommend some openers, tips, and strategies I can use? I realize 6 queen is pretty good, but what pool/hatch timing am I taking on what maps? Just list some stuff off and I think I'll get the idea
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Why is it in professional games they never do shit with their helions, but in an actual match they just herp-derp them and kill 100 drones?
Some kind of "let's make helions appear balance conspiracy" ? or am I missing the secret code to make a Terran not push in with their first four helions?
Edit: I am assuming it is because they know the Zerg player will split well enough it wont be worth it? Seriously never makes sense when I watch a pro-game.
There are plenty of terrans who run in, WCS Roro vs Hack is a great example of Terran running hellions over and over with ridiculous efficiency. Browder recently stated he doesnt know if the queen buff is even enough because terran just runs the hellions in and trades hellions for drones.
But hellions aren't free, that's why you often don't see terran's run in. If you lose your hellions, that's 100% of your units basically. That's all of your map control, you will lose to any all-in if one occurs, you will not be able to take your third anytime soon (as in you cant land it), you can't stop the creep in it's most formative stages... Even if you kill 10 drones with 5 hellions, it's arguable that you are actually behind for doing that, because Zerg now knows he can just drone up with impunity, he has total map control so can be greedy as fuck because he'll spot any move out well in advance, and he can expand and spread creep everywhere because he knows terran can't do shit about it.
It's the same reason why zergs dont just go mutas every single game no matter what and just hold position 20 mutas over the worker line, damned if they lose every muta. Suddenly Zerg would lose any means to keep the opponent forced inside their base, they would lose all map control, and the opponent can suddenly expand or attack with impunity.
pros also play enough to know what's up. A single spine at the ramp may not deter someone in diamond, but a pro will realize a single spine will do too much damage to their 4 hellions that if they ran them in, they'd have health that was lowered just enough that they would almost never do any damage as long as 1-2 queens and some drone micro is around. They can figure out what's a good trade to run in, if the zerg is out of position or not, if theyd do damage or not. In the lower levels, people don't micro well either so splitting drones doesn't exist, holding position to block the ramp, etc, won't happen so they get away with it.
So little bit of much easier to run in than it is to defend it, and lower level players will sometimes run hellions in to their detriment. These days zergs take third guaranteed, but back when everyone opened reactor hellion, running in hellions against 4 queens and 6 lings or 3 queens 1 spine 6 lings meant you win the game basically since the third that was supposed to be denied, is suddenly taken very early, and terran is too far behind to win.
I feel so lost when playing Terran. Can someone recommend some openers, tips, and strategies I can use? I realize 6 queen is pretty good, but what pool/hatch timing am I taking on what maps? Just list some stuff off and I think I'll get the idea
my zvt guide should have everything you are looking for.
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On August 11 2012 14:00 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Why is it in professional games they never do shit with their helions, but in an actual match they just herp-derp them and kill 100 drones?
Some kind of "let's make helions appear balance conspiracy" ? or am I missing the secret code to make a Terran not push in with their first four helions?
Edit: I am assuming it is because they know the Zerg player will split well enough it wont be worth it? Seriously never makes sense when I watch a pro-game. There are plenty of terrans who run in, WCS Roro vs Hack is a great example of Terran running hellions over and over with ridiculous efficiency. Browder recently stated he doesnt know if the queen buff is even enough because terran just runs the hellions in and trades hellions for drones. But hellions aren't free, that's why you often don't see terran's run in. If you lose your hellions, that's 100% of your units basically. That's all of your map control, you will lose to any all-in if one occurs, you will not be able to take your third anytime soon (as in you cant land it), you can't stop the creep in it's most formative stages... Even if you kill 10 drones with 5 hellions, it's arguable that you are actually behind for doing that, because Zerg now knows he can just drone up with impunity, he has total map control so can be greedy as fuck because he'll spot any move out well in advance, and he can expand and spread creep everywhere because he knows terran can't do shit about it. It's the same reason why zergs dont just go mutas every single game no matter what and just hold position 20 mutas over the worker line, damned if they lose every muta. Suddenly Zerg would lose any means to keep the opponent forced inside their base, they would lose all map control, and the opponent can suddenly expand or attack with impunity. pros also play enough to know what's up. A single spine at the ramp may not deter someone in diamond, but a pro will realize a single spine will do too much damage to their 4 hellions that if they ran them in, they'd have health that was lowered just enough that they would almost never do any damage as long as 1-2 queens and some drone micro is around. They can figure out what's a good trade to run in, if the zerg is out of position or not, if theyd do damage or not. In the lower levels, people don't micro well either so splitting drones doesn't exist, holding position to block the ramp, etc, won't happen so they get away with it. So little bit of much easier to run in than it is to defend it, and lower level players will sometimes run hellions in to their detriment. These days zergs take third guaranteed, but back when everyone opened reactor hellion, running in hellions against 4 queens and 6 lings or 3 queens 1 spine 6 lings meant you win the game basically since the third that was supposed to be denied, is suddenly taken very early, and terran is too far behind to win. Show nested quote +I feel so lost when playing Terran. Can someone recommend some openers, tips, and strategies I can use? I realize 6 queen is pretty good, but what pool/hatch timing am I taking on what maps? Just list some stuff off and I think I'll get the idea my zvt guide should have everything you are looking for.
Amazing guide, fully appreciated. Thanks!
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Hi
I'm having problem with early pool + spine aggression.
Here is the rep : http://drop.sc/236605
I go 15 gas 15 pool (pool starts at 2:03 i think) and recognize the rush (pull drones off gas after mining about 20) but still lose miserably. I think my engagement with the spine was bad (was blocking my own units) but I'm not sure thats the problem. Ideas / suggestions?
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^ When someone does a 6 pool without ALL drones pulled, especially when they put down a spine, a-move. He only has 6 lings out, and with your drones chasing after his initial lings, you should be able to grab ~6 of the drones real quick and focus down the spine while the other ~10 drones are still too much for the lings to handle (if you can do some hold position micro on weakened drones, great! but micro usually hurts more than helps, imo, just a-move).
Check out my zvz anti 6 pool guide in my profile, I go in-depth about how to hold 6/7/8 pools of all types.
You start bleeding way too many drones because you focus the spine when he's attacking you with lings (either pull back, or a-move the rest of your drones so he can't attack those drones without losing all his lings). You lose 3 drones at the start when you could have easily a-moved and won the engagement.
If someone is stupid enough to go into the mineral line with their lings, mineral walk, get a full surround, a-move trap them all and kill them all. You can't go all the way into the mineral line like that with a 6pool, else this happens and you lose all your lings, and you didn't take advantage of that. If he was good, what would have happened is you would have a-moved while focusing his spine with 4-6 drones and the spine would be cancelled.
Because you lost 3 drones, what would have been a straight up win for you is now sticky and really requires micro to win, you can no longer win with an a-move. This was a problem. Don't lose drones like that, and don't be so scared to engage - 3 drones beat 2 lings, you'd be surprised how well drones do against slowlings.
If, whatever happens, you know the spine is going to finish and you can't stop it, make X+1 spines (x being the number of spines you should have made depending on the pool variation). Something like 16 drones, 1 rooting spine, and 4 lings just absolutely will crush 14 lings and 1 spine.
Against spine+ling variations like this, you should really just a-move then pull 4-6 drones to attack the spine. You screw that up. Okay, still not unwinnable. The opponent is micro'ing terribly and going into the mineral line, you should mineral walk and kill him. Okay, you screw that up, still not unwinnable. The spine is about to pop, you know you are too late to stop it now, make 2 spines in your mineral line (this is because against non-drone all-in variations, you should rely on spines rather than lings because the opponent is outproducing lings since he is constantly funneling lings toward you so of course he'll overpower you, hence, 1 spine because of no drones pulled, another because he has a spine about to go up).
Unless the opponent pulls ALL his drones, he cannot engage in the mineral field. Think of the mineral line as base - you can't touch me there! If someone attempts to go into the mineral line, you just mineral walk, or defensively drone stack all your drones on a recessed patch, and then a-move for 16 drones to all attack all at once from a single point, 1 shotting anything in range, or mineral walk to trap everything and get a surround.
In cases of spine rushes with no drones pulled, the opponent won't have as many forces (no drone support, less lings because he had to make a spine). You really should just a-move and focus down the spine while your own lings eventually pop. But, if you can't help it and know the spine is going to go up, make a spine or two of your own, while staying in the mineral line and continue mining. Sometimes, when I get 6 pooled by mass ling + 1-2 spines, I'll just make 2-3 spines in my mineral line immmediately and continue mining to get lings out. A hatch has a lot of health, he won't kill it anytime soon.
Your constant running away when you could have won the engagement, and losing sooo many drones in that process, is what lost you that game. Even if it got as bad as it did, you still could have just gone back to mining, and made a spine in the mineral line while drone walking around it so he can't kill it, and then have your 15 drones + 1-2 spines vs his single spine and 10 lings, an easy win for you.
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Hello, I'm mid/high master zerg and lately i have some troubles with:
1. Gateway->Nexus->Core->(Forge) Expand, I tried my usual timings (Stephano Timings), but they dont work out as they should, I'm not sure when to cut drones versus early gateway pressure anymore, because it's gonna be much faster than the usual one of FFE/Nexus first. Also i'm not sure when or to take gas/Safety Roach Warren versus this style, anyone can help me out ?
2. Gateway->Core->Nexus->Zealot, Stalker, Stalker pressure, I usually get my gas very early on, after hatch of course, but then i'm again not sure, if i need spine or are 2 queens just fine, even though his stalkers arrive before my hatch is done which makes it more complicated. Any suggestions?
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I heard about the "scroll casting of infested terrans" a while ago, but then someone said it was a bug and got removed.
Now I saw Catz do it in the NASL Gauntlet (said the commentators). Can you still do it, is it bug abuse or not, and how do I do it (if it is an accepted method)?
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How do I learn to be more aggressive? Too often I will win an engagement by a fair margin, but decide to go and macro up instead of pushing my advantage. This lets my opponent get back into the game and often win. Any tips?
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On August 11 2012 20:18 eXeel wrote:
I heard about the "scroll casting of infested terrans" a while ago, but then someone said it was a bug and got removed.
Now I saw Catz do it in the NASL Gauntlet (said the commentators). Can you still do it, is it bug abuse or not, and how do I do it (if it is an accepted method)?
Its not a bug per se its just something that many people feel should not be in the game. All it is is binding the IT spell to your mouse wheel in your normal hotkey settings in game. I don't believe it has been removed from the game (but can't check right now) and if it is in the game by default most tournaments will allow it.
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On August 11 2012 20:00 Theilo wrote:
Hello, I'm mid/high master zerg and lately i have some troubles with:
1. Gateway->Nexus->Core->(Forge) Expand, I tried my usual timings (Stephano Timings), but they dont work out as they should, I'm not sure when to cut drones versus early gateway pressure anymore, because it's gonna be much faster than the usual one of FFE/Nexus first. Also i'm not sure when or to take gas/Safety Roach Warren versus this style, anyone can help me out ?
2. Gateway->Core->Nexus->Zealot, Stalker, Stalker pressure, I usually get my gas very early on, after hatch of course, but then i'm again not sure, if i need spine or are 2 queens just fine, even though his stalkers arrive before my hatch is done which makes it more complicated. Any suggestions?
This. It's been a while since I've played and I've been seeing this a lot. The timings feel so off now since it's been forever since I've played against gateway first (Anyone remember 3 gate sentry expands :D?). I've tried the classic two base roach/burrow response versus any obvious gate pushes but in general it just feels weird to play against. The strength seems to be their ability to deny your quick fifth while getting their third. Instead of 5 vs 3 bases if they FFE seems like the mnid game turns into 4 base vs 3.
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Replay
It's frustrating games like this that make me hate playing against Protoss. This guy was literally on 2 or fewer bases the entire game, just masses up colossi, archons, and stalkers and wins the baserace.
My beliefs in the game was to go muta/ling to
1) Gain map control to freely expand and tech to broodlords, and
2) Be safe from all-ins by basetrading
I'm on 4 bases, getting hive, but when he moves out I am maxed with mostly ling (I thought that was Stephano's style? Lots of lings for a fast hive?)
It's clearly a basetrade, my mutas do ungodly damage to his main and natural, my lings stop him from mining at his third, and I let him chew on my third (I have a fourth too) to buy time for broodlords. I had 8 infestors and 7 broodlords, chain fungals enabled me to kill most of his army with it. Not all of it though, so I made 40 roaches to try and clean it up. They get eaten alive by the colossi, and I then lose the game despite having a gamewinning lead for like 10 minutes.
Honestly, the only thing I think I did wrong was not make ~20 spines at my natural to buffer for my infestors/broods. Also it turns out lings suck big dick against Protoss T3, but I thought they were important to have against Protoss when you go for a fast hive...
I feel like I would've won the game if I went for ultras instead of broodlords -- he had a giant stalker ball and no micro skills, it would've been easy fungals + ultras going to work on those stalker/colo
What should I do when I have the game won? I want to avoid losing like that ever again, it's complete bullshit. I wish I could sit on 2 bases for 25 minutes and then somehow win against Zerg's tier 3
Edit: Okay, something very similar happened again. I improved my opening build a little, did less damage with mutas...This guy actually knew simple micro like forcefields hahaha.
Replay #2
What I did differently:
Built 10 spines to slow him down
Brought the 30 mutas back to help in the fight
I like basetrading better, but I'd rather have my base, army, and eco intact than have both of ours get screwed up.
I remember the daily on mutalisk transitioning, I guess spines really are the key.
I just never expect them to ACTUALLY push, and stalkers are fast like slowlings so I don't have enough time to build spines at home at my vulnerable 3rd + 4th.
So my questions are:
1) Should I bring my mutas home to decisively kill his army, or use them to basetrade likely losing my base too?
2) When do I build spines to be safe against Protoss getting frustrated and hitting 1a in my main?
3) How many infestors should I have against Protoss in the lategame? I like to go up to 8, higher if I scout lots of air. Is that right?
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how do you deal with a 4 gate +1 timing into third?
roach max: immortals and sentries shut it down
mutas: blink stalkers
only thing i can think of that would work was spines into broods, or hydras (he didnt have collo, but probably had an obs in my base)
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On August 12 2012 03:52 courtpanda wrote:
how do you deal with a 4 gate +1 timing into third?
roach max: immortals and sentries shut it down
mutas: blink stalkers
only thing i can think of that would work was spines into broods, or hydras (he didnt have collo, but probably had an obs in my base)
You're theorycrafting yourself into the ground. If he's doing a 4gate +1 timing off FFE, you pretty much need roaches, and earlier than usual (see belial's zvp guide). Tech doesn't come in time, and lings alone melt. Lings+spine+queens can hold on for awhile, but roaches are the solution. Creep spread will help because roach speed won't be anywhere near done when it hits, and +1 on stalkers can get dangerous. I recommend still adding in some lings and using them to chase stalkers--more precisely, avoiding those +1 zealots.
I don't know where immortals and sentries are coming from. he's getting a robo behind 4 gates and third? and he's getting a bunch of sentries? 4gate +1 timing is different from immortal sentry all-in, and also different from immortal sentry into third. and he's also able to get blink? toss was complaining about roach max into muta switch for a reason, if they go immortal sentry to defend against the roach max, then an unscouted switch to mutas can end the game, because adding the twilight for blink takes awhile, and you can't really do it while getting enough immortal sentry to hold against a full-on roach max (or so the complaints go).
spines into broods makes no sense, 4gate +1 hits before your lair is done. same about hydras, which is a ridiculous overinvestment, in my opinion, to take down what is essentially just heavy pressure, not an all-in.
can you provide a replay? It sounds like you had trouble with 4gate +1, and either you take a lot of damage and lose to the followup simply due to being behind (thus you might be led to think that you have no options), or you lost to the 4gate +1 and are making up counters in your head.
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On August 12 2012 03:52 courtpanda wrote:
how do you deal with a 4 gate +1 timing into third?
roach max: immortals and sentries shut it down
mutas: blink stalkers
only thing i can think of that would work was spines into broods, or hydras (he didnt have collo, but probably had an obs in my base)
Here's how you deal with 4gate +1
Roach warren at 7 minutes.
At 8 minutes you need to have larva available at your 3rd base, and not be supply blocked.
Make roaches AT the 3rd base (not at the main and natural). Run your queen and drones in circles if you have to, while waiting for roaches.
There, you held it with only a few roaches, now you can do whatever you want against his 3rd base.
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Is there any reason why queens aren't used as much in ZvP as in ZvT? Like, wouldn't having 4-6 queens just for defense be nice, especially against FFE into 4-5gate early attacks? Transfuse would be really great and you wouldn't ever get caught off-guard by air, plus they don't use larvae. Currently I'll get 1 queen per hatch (fast 3hatch) and then 1-2 extra for tumours and stuff. I'm not really sure what he the standard is or what the pros do.
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On August 12 2012 05:22 poppenfrack wrote:
Is there any reason why queens aren't used as much in ZvP as in ZvT? Like, wouldn't having 4-6 queens just for defense be nice, especially against FFE into 4-5gate early attacks? Transfuse would be really great and you wouldn't ever get caught off-guard by air, plus they don't use larvae. Currently I'll get 1 queen per hatch (fast 3hatch) and then 1-2 extra for tumours and stuff. I'm not really sure what he the standard is or what the pros do.
Queens are not used that much in zvp because they do not fit so well in the build order and are not that useful as in zvt.
-assuming you open gasless the 300 minerals you get around 4.30 is spent on third hatch in zvp so you have no resources to get the additional queens like in zvt
-the reason for getting mass queens early in zvt is creep spread and their ability to deal with early pressure. While creep might give you a little advantage in zvp its not that crucial. As for early pressure queens are only good vs little pack of units, their dps is too low to help you against any 2 base all in from toss. Yes they are helpful against air and its the only situation when you should be building additional queens, after you scout it coming not blindly.
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Hello, I'm mid/high master zerg and lately i have some troubles with:
1. Gateway->Nexus->Core->(Forge) Expand, I tried my usual timings (Stephano Timings), but they dont work out as they should, I'm not sure when to cut drones versus early gateway pressure anymore, because it's gonna be much faster than the usual one of FFE/Nexus first. Also i'm not sure when or to take gas/Safety Roach Warren versus this style, anyone can help me out ?
2. Gateway->Core->Nexus->Zealot, Stalker, Stalker pressure, I usually get my gas very early on, after hatch of course, but then i'm again not sure, if i need spine or are 2 queens just fine, even though his stalkers arrive before my hatch is done which makes it more complicated. Any suggestions?
Gate/Nexus/Core/Forge is more like a 1 gate expand. You should get gas, ling speed, before taking your third, although you can go gasless and be fine, just make sure to know if he sends out any units by holding the towers.
Gate/Core/Nexus is more like a 1 gate sentry expand, just get gas and definitely get speed started before third. You should see what he's up to and get gas in time to get speed. From there, play it more like a 1/3 gate sentry expand - drone up to ~50, take 2xgas and roach warren and be prepared to make units while pumping drones, lair up to 70.
Everyone I play who do these openings tend to all-in, so I make some speedlings at ~50+, and if I see them make zealot/sentry, like 1/3 gate sentry expand, you need a couple roaches.
Replay
frustrating game
mavvie
You should probably create a thread on this.
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3 quick questions:
Is 15hatch 16pool greedy in ZvZ? I haven't really thought about it, I just do the same opening I do against Terran (15hatch, 16pool, and then 17gas), but is it more common to go 15hatch 14pool just to be safe? Edit: I like 15hatch 16pool because it lines up the first two queens perfectly.
If I don't see any gas taken at my Protoss opponent's natural (FFE), should I assume mass gateway all-in is heading my way and how do I react to that? Must I make an earlier roach den than normal? I lost to it and felt like I didn't have roach-tech available on time to deal with it.
In ZvZ, it seems to me that 15hatch into mass ling all-in is very powerful, because no other opening can match the sheer amount of larvae. Am I missing something or is this actually a viable all-in? I mean, he can block his ramp with queens but that still leaves his expansion vulnerable.
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EPT
