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On August 12 2012 12:30 STYDawn wrote:
I dont think this has been asked before, but is there a way to make all my units go into a nydus worm/network?
let me clarify, whenever i select my units and right click the nydus network/worm, only one unit goes into it, the rest just crowd around the nydus. I wish the nydus network could function like in BW where right click and all the units go in.
Is there a way for hatcheries to rally directly units into a Nydus network?
They should go in one at a time, never all at once. Are you sure they aren't just going in one by one?
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OK, so I'm still losing to the immo/sentry all-ins. Even if I get mutas on time, muta/speedling kills maybe one unit before everything dies, so I assume I'm meant to baserace, but how viable is that? I can't deal with his army so going baserace just seems like a way to delay the inevitable.
I assumed speedlings + mutas would be good against a sentry/immo-heavy composition T_T
20 mutas and 100 lings will shred a base so damn quickly. Please check out the "nestea anti-immortal sentry build' thread where I post replays of what to do with the style, and even vods of nestea doing it. Bust the natural wall-in with mutas, run in with lings, the real base traders.
By the time he kills your main, you should have 25+ mutas, which will kill any pylon down much, much quicker than he can kill all of your mutas, and if you kept most of your lings, you really should be able to just straight up engage his army as you constantly added mutas while he didnt make anything new due to his econ being killed so quickly.
You aren't supposed to have a base wrecking amount when he hits you, your mutas should only be popping about after he's already killed your third. It's that you have 20 mutas, and the 60+ lings you made, running into his 2 base and killing everything instantly, and you make about an extra 10 more while he's walking into your main before the spire dies, and you having 30 mutas to take out something like 20 stalkers, which is ezpz for the mutas, especially with mass ling support. Not to mention if you prepared for the base trade, made a hidden base, and just keep mining, remake the spire somewhere hidden, etc.
Bane drops are not a good answer, and so far Chaos still hasn't provided any replays of this supposed bane drop play, and no pros have done this, and a GM even came on here and said that was bad advice last time he suggested it. Chaos usually has really good advice, I don't know why he keeps saying something so obscure with no replay to back it up after I ask please please so many times ><
But the standard way to beat immo/sentry is simply flanking with an extremely ling heavy army. You should only have 10 roaches, maybe 20 tops, when the final engagement actually goes down.
I have a hard time knowing when protoss is going to all-in or push, or take an expansion. Both require very different responses (right?).
No, they don't. You should never make any roaches until Toss pushes out, and you should mass lings after about 8:30 (sinc even fast third builds can do a sort of +1 zealot pressure that will kill anything less than mass ling pumped after 8:30). I don't even start roach speed and roach upgrades in most of my ZvP until I know for sure Toss is all-inning, since roach speed will generally not be done in time for all-ins, and I'll know in time to start it anyways (no expo by 10:00, its an all-in, if he hasn't already pushed out and engaging you, most all-ins hit before lair is done anyways).
So if Toss takes his third, you have gas and can start infestation, hive, upgrades asap, and your tech isn't delayed at all because you wasted gas on roach tech (which just really kills your hive, bl timing) and if Toss is all-inning, you generally don't need many roaches, and want to be much ling heavier anyways, and you just add some roaches as necessary.
Also, make an overseer as soon as lair is done to see how many gates toss has. Although really, you should know pretty quickly if toss is all-inning or not, if he hasn't taken an expo by 10:00, it's an all-in for sure, although 9:30 is probably more closer to the expo timing (i mean, he'll be clearly posturing to take his third, putting down a pylon, etc, wont have a shitton of stalkers or gateway units in general, won't have 3+ immortals). Gotta make that overseer.
But really, all-ins should be really obvious. The latest all-in toss can do pushes out at 9:30, so it'll be obvious when a ton of units move across the map before 9:30 with the ling you keep in front of his base or at the tower, that he's all-inning, and you'll see the third taken before about 9:40 if he's going quick third. Only other things Toss could really be doing that wouldnt expo or move-out by 9:30 is something weird like DTs or stargate or colossus, things that you knew and prepared for and didn't necessarily need to make roaches against, or you didn't know so you send in that overseer to make sure what's up and probably made an overseer or two at home with some spores because you aren't sure what toss is doing.
How fast are the pros to reach 200/200 if the opponent doesnt make pressure and without roaches in ZvT?
So, so dependent on what zerg is doing. If they are fast tracking from infestors to broodlords on 3 base, they won't reach 200/200 for a long time against a standard macro terran. If they are going ling/bane/muta, they will max out before 14:00 easily, maybe 13:00.
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No, they don't. You should never make any roaches until Toss pushes out, and you should mass lings after about 8:30 (sinc even fast third builds can do a sort of +1 zealot pressure that will kill anything less than mass ling pumped after 8:30). I don't even start roach speed and roach upgrades in most of my ZvP until I know for sure Toss is all-inning, since roach speed will generally not be done in time for all-ins, and I'll know in time to start it anyways (no expo by 10:00, its an all-in, if he hasn't already pushed out and engaging you, most all-ins hit before lair is done anyways).
So if Toss takes his third, you have gas and can start infestation, hive, upgrades asap, and your tech isn't delayed at all because you wasted gas on roach tech (which just really kills your hive, bl timing) and if Toss is all-inning, you generally don't need many roaches, and want to be much ling heavier anyways, and you just add some roaches as necessary.
Also, make an overseer as soon as lair is done to see how many gates toss has. Although really, you should know pretty quickly if toss is all-inning or not, if he hasn't taken an expo by 10:00, it's an all-in for sure, although 9:30 is probably more closer to the expo timing (i mean, he'll be clearly posturing to take his third, putting down a pylon, etc, wont have a shitton of stalkers or gateway units in general, won't have 3+ immortals). Gotta make that overseer.
But really, all-ins should be really obvious. The latest all-in toss can do pushes out at 9:30, so it'll be obvious when a ton of units move across the map before 9:30 with the ling you keep in front of his base or at the tower, that he's all-inning, and you'll see the third taken before about 9:40 if he's going quick third. Only other things Toss could really be doing that wouldnt expo or move-out by 9:30 is something weird like DTs or stargate or colossus, things that you knew and prepared for and didn't necessarily need to make roaches against, or you didn't know so you send in that overseer to make sure what's up and probably made an overseer or two at home with some spores because you aren't sure what toss is doing.
Thanks so much for this, made things a lot clearer. Previously i'd go straight into mindless roach spam mode and end up with a lot of fairly pointless supply.
Really appreciate all the zerg strategy stuff you do around TL.
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I have not played the game much after the queen buff patch. I have a few simple questions. I usually like to open 4 queens, maybe go up to 5 but usually not 6. But all in all I just need a decent build and some timings I can follow. Master player here btw.
When I should take my 3rd vs a standard terran?
When should I take my gas/gases?
When should I make roach warren, evo chamber, bane nest and lair?
And are there any other new/specific timings I should worry about?
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On August 13 2012 11:14 Belial88 wrote:
Bane drops are not a good answer, and so far Chaos still hasn't provided any replays of this supposed bane drop play, and no pros have done this, and a GM even came on here and said that was bad advice last time he suggested it. Chaos usually has really good advice, I don't know why he keeps saying something so obscure with no replay to back it up after I ask please please so many times ><
Look I'll get to collecting as much immo-sentry replays as possible once I finish making this guide i've been working on for about two weeks now. It's been taking a lot of work on that part so I haven't been able to get enough evidence to support my claim and for that matter I have always said it only worked in very specific situations and requries the right set up.
I'll back it up once I'm done formatting everything and adding images to it. Then I can give you a thorough post about drop play against immo-sentry and working it into your play in other ways. Until that moment I guess I'll stop giving advice about fighting that specific build with drop play, but mark my words. Proof will be posted.
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On August 13 2012 17:45 saynomore wrote:
I have not played the game much after the queen buff patch. I have a few simple questions. I usually like to open 4 queens, maybe go up to 5 but usually not 6. But all in all I just need a decent build and some timings I can follow. Master player here btw.
When I should take my 3rd vs a standard terran?
When should I take my gas/gases?
When should I make roach warren, evo chamber, bane nest and lair?
And are there any other new/specific timings I should worry about?
I can give you some simple answers but this is a very wide topic so I suggest you to read some guides on zvt instead (this one should be decent for example http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340023).
When I should take my 3rd vs a standard terran? Usually around 6 min
When should I take my gas/gases? This vary a lot, some ppl take 1 gas early (3-4min) for ling speed some wait and get 3-4 gases at once around 6min
When should I make roach warren, evo chamber, bane nest and lair? This is too build dependant to say (genrally after third when you got resources for it)
And are there any other new/specific timings I should worry about? Banshee play is very popular recently, so make sure you scout terrans main with overlord or make a blind spore after 8 min.
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Anyone have a reasonable way to beat immortal sentry without banelings? I am on the verge of quitting every ZvP i see because of this bullshit...
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I have one question:
How do I not do this again http://drop.sc/237547
If your answer is macro harder please explain how that would have helped me since I actually had a 50 food lead...
just about every zvt and zvp end up like this and its tilting me to no end.
Doing a very botched version of filtersc's silver/gold lvl zerg stuff. Stopped doing pure roach since the timing just isn't doing shit aside from making my opponent laugh is ass off when he forcefields every single roach to death.
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On August 13 2012 20:24 Hing wrote:
Anyone have a reasonable way to beat immortal sentry without banelings? I am on the verge of quitting every ZvP i see because of this bullshit...
I'm only an 800pt master, but I rarely see immortal sentry nowadays. Due to my style, I rarely have trouble with it, though.
Here's what I do, but keep in mind it's very rough since I see it so rarely:
- If the protoss takes 2 gas before 7ish minutes, immortal sentry all in becomes a possibility. Keep in mind it's not 100% positive, and I'd venture to say it might not even be likely. To confirm, you want to have a ling poking up the ramp, or have adequate overlord vision between his ramp and his natural nexus. If you see "too many" sentries (Think anything more then 3 or so). Immortal sentry hits before 10:30, so I'm apt to start pumping lings soon after being reasonably sure of a push.
- My zvp is comprised of ling/bling, so I keep a ling down by the ramp of the protoss as much as I can simply to see him push out. He should push out with nearly pure immortal/sentry with little support, and that's when you want to hit him. Lings are speedy, and can close in on the P army very quickly. If the P isn't watching, you can snipe nearly everything before even forcefields come out, however don't be greedy. If he forcefields you off, you need to retreat and not lose any more lings. At this point, you're just buying time to kill him.
I don't believe I've ever beaten it with ling/bling if he actually made it to my base and had supporting units behind it. I've been holding a 70% win rate in ZvP mostly due to correctly identifying what the protoss is doing and playing a super greedy no roach style, so this may not even be helpful, as I'm not sure if gas/roach/ling speed timings are different than what I do.
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On August 13 2012 20:24 Hing wrote:
Anyone have a reasonable way to beat immortal sentry without banelings? I am on the verge of quitting every ZvP i see because of this bullshit...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339136
If you try to play it conventionally, you HAVE to get a flank set up. You should also be much more ling heavy than roach heavy, like make only 10-20 roaches at most, and only when Toss has already pushed out. Which means like an 8:00+ macro hatch is really important, as is your macro. You have to be around 70+ at 8:00 to beat this push, if you are in the 60s you'll probably lose.
so 3 ways to really beat it:
base trade with roach/ling
base trade with mutas
engage with flank
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ZvT Cloud Kingdom
okay I need help with this.
After rewatching the replay...WHAT THE FUCK. Not trying to be mad, but really. He does a 2rax -> 5rax -> expand and by then I'd lost the game
I never scouted his front, but I saw no expansion by 4:00. I figured he was just playing safe because he'd been all-inned a lot recently.
I know how to hold 3rax all-ins, but not all the way up to 5. Marines scale terrifically compared to zerglings, and with any micro banelings can be dealt with, even on creep.
I kept myself in the game with some clutch fungals and a terrific break on the contain. I'm actually proud of that, 25 energy absorbed 4 tank shots 
So yeah. How do I deal with mass rax all-ins if I opened gasless FE?
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I never scouted his front, but I saw no expansion by 4:00. I figured he was just playing safe because he'd been all-inned a lot recently.
dont do that. Just play safe, he'll be the one behind even if he took his natural in his main.
Despite Terran being able to lift off and such, you need to realize that if Terran isn't mining on another base, he's not on another base. So a terran with 20 CC's on 1 mining base, is just a 1 base Terran (maybe with a little more, but not much).
You should have sac'd an overlord at ~30 to see what was in his main. A constant theme i see in your play is total lack of scouting, you never put an overlord by the opponent's natural, and you never put another overlord by their main. Watch my Overlord Guide's replay to see how to send your overlords.
You can also easily deal with such an all-in by reactively putting down spines when he had moved out... 5 rax, 3 rax, whatever, it's all the same. You generally won't have banelings in time against such pushes, and really, I wouldn't recommend banelings anyways. You should have a couple spines, 4 queens, and reactionary lings... 2 spines just shuts down any sort of 2-7 rax scv all-in cold, along with reactionary lings and queens. Simply get speed eventually and you'll crush no-medivac marines.
Replay analysis:
- You should drone scout. It's standard these days in ZvT, so you can reactively go third hatch before pool against CC first. Even if you don't feel comfortable with it, you are diamond. Unless you are GM and know what you are doing, you should always drone scout. Just a good habit to do. It doesn't really cost you anything to drone scout if you bring the drone back right away anyways. You would have known what was up immediately.
- Your overlord saw no FE on the low ground so immediately you need to be thinking "HES DOING AN ALLIN" if there is no 1 rax FE on the low ground. The CC should be planted on the ground from a 1 rax FE before queens finish, easily, and you didn't re-route your overlord by his natural to watch his front instead of watch his expo. -
- You saw Terran shoot your 2 lings with 6 marines. You overreact and make 3 spines. I dont know what you are doing here, and i dont think you do either. This terran also did a really bad version of a 2 rax that was super late, that doesnt make any sense. 2 rax is only strong with bunkers, when marines are out right away. 2 rax like this are just bad, and this guy was really bad, but yet you take damage from it. you should not have. 2 queens would have held this off easily. You did this last time too, you dont take things seroiusly. You need to pull the queen from your main. You then engage piecemeal with the lings and back away with the queens, when you could have easily overpowered him. Just 2 queens alone would have beat that. You dont really seem to understand what can beat what, you need to spend some time in unit tester. or just play more and get experience, i guess.
I think you should always make 2 spines against 2 rax openings, and against mass rax play, but 3 spines like that was weird against 6 marines only. if you had your queens up front, you could have engaged with them, then pull back before they die and then the spines would have been up.
- You dont macro at all during this, so what is an all-in by terran that coul dhave easily been held, is actually doing a ton of damage. again, macro is your problem, not anything else. if you had been droning through this, you would have won this game much easier, much earlier. the great thing about drones is if you make too many in the early game, you just fight with them and still end up ahead in workers usually.
- you should hotkey your spawning pool, so you can start speed as soon as you get 100 gas. but you dont get speed on time, you dont make anything at all (why are you watching the battle? all you did was a-move, just continue droning). Later on, replace the spawning pool hotkey with evolution chmbers or spires or infestation pit or whatever. always hotkey this sort of stuff. mining gas so early on was weird too, but if you are going to mine gas early on, at least pull off gas when done.
- 3-4 or 7 rax are actually terrible, 2 spines = stopped, and expo is too late. But, they only seem strong because you dont macro very well. If you had been droning and injecting during all of that, you would be soooo far and ahead of the opponent that he literally would die to anything because you are so far ahead and his expo is so damn late. But because you dont macro, it looks like a 2+ rax seems really intense, because you really never come out ahead against them because you never make drones.
- you saw that terran took his third ridiculously late, you know he must have added rax and has more marines. if you moved your overlord to the overlook you woul dhave seen them pooling up... You never keep a ling in front of terran base, but you always need to, and you never keep your overlord overlooking the front of his natural ramp, but you need to. You saw him take an expo, now move the overlord. I strongly recommend hotkeying that overlord, put it on 0 or something you dont really use or need quickly.
- that stop position micro was not helpful at all. that's only useful against melee units that you want to stop meleeing you. it hurts if YOU want to be the melee-er. plus lost mining time. Anyways, during that engagement, you shouldnt have engaged when you did. You knew you had speed on the way, you should have waited until speed finished, then you would have cleaned house. A hatchery takes a while to die to non-stimmed marines, just let it fall to yellow, and split your lings up so they dont bunch up when he moves by the minerals to attack, and then with speed you win easily. Just pull the drones from that mineral line, wait for speed, let the hatch take some damage, and then attack when your tech finished.
What would have been really pro, is to have thrown down a bunch of evos at the wall-in to buy time, and then when speed finished when he finallys breaks through the evo wall, you engage and win.
But this is just bad scouting on your part, really. your overlord isn't over his ramp when it should be. you should have sac'd an overlord into his main to see what he was doing (you never made an attempt to send an overlord toward his main...). You should have known that with the super late expo timing he had, that he added a bunch of rax and was doing some sort of mass rax all-in with just a super late cc started, and thus have made 2-3 spines, but you didnt do that either.
Oh, and if you had made more drones earlier on, you would have easily crushed this guys push as you would have been able to make way more lings, your speed would have been done in time if you started it right when you hit 100 (see, thats why you hotkey your spawning pool and evolution chambers! you failed the last replay because of the same reason, you didnt hotkey your spire and so greater spire was started minutes after your hive finished!). You would have been able to throw down a lot more spines, et cetera.
It just looks like mass rax is hard to beat, but it's actually super easy to beat if you actually drone up, something you dont do. so then you struggle, because what should be easily crushable as a late push with sheer economy, you lose to. That's why droning is so strong, oh you moved out? here's 10 spines i just throw down, good luck.
Now you are just too far behind to win, although really, you lost the game when Terran did that 'failed' 2 rax that hit super late and you held off easily without losing any drones. You just don't macro at all. He didn't even really kill any drones with his 2nd attack (although he killed queens). You just never really drone. He did a pressure with his 2 rax, and you were so distracted by a-moving that you totally forgot to macro for 3 minutes, while the Terran continued to make 1 SCV per minute and made a 2nd base.
You also should have taken your third right after that attack ended. i mean you had no chance to win, but if you macro'd well you could have won the game if you took your third after speed, as in macro'd/played on a higher level than your opponent. Map control = take more bases.
some other notes, supply block at 62 hurts you, you get supply blocked every time, no baneling nest doesnt make sense, terran just lost his entire army without killing anything but some lings, you know he has no army, you should go and counterattack immediately, if you did you woul dhave actually killed about 20 SCVs at his third, and ran into his unwalled-off natural possibly, but you don't do that, which is exactly what could have brought you back into the game, dont tech up to broodlords when behind like that, go ultras, and you need way more units when you saw him move out, but you dont make any, still no baneling nest i dont know why you dont make a baneling nest ever, you shoudl ALWAYS flank from multiple angles when engaging terran (its what everyone does nowadays, zergs no longer just a-move) yet you never prepare to flank around by sandwhiching him in the area at your fourth when he pushed, with a flank you woul dhave easily crushed that army with the 1k minerals you were banking, but instead you dont macro so you have a huge bank and no units, if you are losing your third, take a third elsewhere, but you dont take that third above your natural, dont ever engage all in one spot like that instead flank, please please please set up multiple flanks, just peal a half the lings and go around its not hard at all and you have all the time in the world to set it up, after crushing his army you should double expand, dont make an ultra cavern and greater spire at the time like that, if you want to tech switch, do it when you have 5+ bases, not like that, that was goofy, if you had waited to engage that army when it got to your third instead of at your fourth, and spammed IT, you actually could have killed that army, but instead you engage terribly and dont spam IT. IT is super strong against mech, not FG.
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I've hit a situation that I've faced a few times already, and I'm hoping for some general advice rather than specific critiques of my play. I generally know exactly what I did wrong the instant I ragequit, but I feel sort adrift in-game when I need to be making decisions. I feel like every game is just me waiting to die whenever they're happy with their comp and econ. I know it's all tied to macro problems, but it's the framework in which I should be macroing that feels lost to me.
In particular, since I'm only plat, I play opponents who just sort of do shit. When I'm playing well, I can at least scout and identify known, rote BOs and handle them relatively well although even then, when I'm going bad like I am right now, my in-mind goals feel hazy and vague. When I scout that they're not playing a recognized, standard build, and in particular when they're doing some shit I totally don't recognize or haven't seen in ages, I feel lost as to how to respond in a way that gets/keeps an advantage for me.
Obviously if your opponent "just does shit", they aren't playing optimal, so you should have an easier time of things. It's not terribly hard to either see or rule out very standard plays, but when I see that he's not following a known build, I don't really know what I should be working for. On the one hand, I don't want to panic and fall into the 'defend against everything, lose to anything' rut. On the other hand, the more in-game time that goes by, the more vulnerable I am to whatever bullshit comes because I need more advanced preparation to survive.
My particular question is what should the inner narrative be for how to win a game when you're not sure what they're doing? Should I just focus my APM on scouting while droning at home until I figure it out? Should I get one "Sheth level" ahead in drones and then build some units? Drone while building static D until I know what units to use? Tech while figuring out what they're up to? Do I try to proceed with my intended build, or do I focus only on defense and econ, then tailor my build to what they do? Is there a "general" Z composition that's best if you don't know exactly what they're doing, or that I should target to have an army until I know exactly what their ultimate goal is? I feel like answers to these questions should be second nature to me after all the games I've played, but lately I feel like I have no idea.
It seems like getting an econ lead goes without saying, and it should be easy as Z since that's our race's advantage. I feel like you cannot be greedy if you don't know what they're doing, but if you can't just build drones and expo blind, what do you need to do instead?
Should I just pick a single build/composition like ling/bling/muta into infestor/broodlord and always play it until I figure these things out? Or is there an underlying framework onto which unit comps hang that I need to work on?
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On August 14 2012 04:57 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +I never scouted his front, but I saw no expansion by 4:00. I figured he was just playing safe because he'd been all-inned a lot recently. dont do that. Just play safe, he'll be the one behind even if he took his natural in his main. Despite Terran being able to lift off and such, you need to realize that if Terran isn't mining on another base, he's not on another base. So a terran with 20 CC's on 1 mining base, is just a 1 base Terran (maybe with a little more, but not much). You should have sac'd an overlord at ~30 to see what was in his main. A constant theme i see in your play is total lack of scouting, you never put an overlord by the opponent's natural, and you never put another overlord by their main. Watch my Overlord Guide's replay to see how to send your overlords. You can also easily deal with such an all-in by reactively putting down spines when he had moved out... 5 rax, 3 rax, whatever, it's all the same. You generally won't have banelings in time against such pushes, and really, I wouldn't recommend banelings anyways. You should have a couple spines, 4 queens, and reactionary lings... 2 spines just shuts down any sort of 2-7 rax scv all-in cold, along with reactionary lings and queens. Simply get speed eventually and you'll crush no-medivac marines.
Okay fine, I'll reread your guide and watch all the replays I feel terribly unsafe sending out overlords against a Terran, because marines can shoot up. Perhaps I should make 4-6 lings so I don't have to worry about 1-2 marine hitsquads?
Okay, I guess that means that if I hadn't cancelled spines I would've been fine for the follow up all-ins. You're right, if I had seen 5 rax I would've thrown down spines BEFORE he was in my base haha. Okay, so if no expo by 4:00 throw down 2-3 spines? I assume you mean spines not lings...I like my 'D' key too much haha
Belial, do you face people who do cute little bio timings designed to kill your third? I never lose my third because I make some roach/ling ~9:00, but do higher level terrans do this too? It puts them so far behind if they fail.
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^ Yes, terran marines can shoot up. Which is why you take safe overlord routes, and use overlords to scout....
For example, cloud kingdom. Send initial overlord to spot for expo, then move it to watch the ramp. If you see him send out a marine, have your 9 overlord go all along the edge of the map and take a very long, scenic route, and if he doesnt send out a marine, like 99% of terrans dont because it puts you vulnerable to all-ins, then you get that scout off. It's well worth the risk anyways than having to make 5 spores every single zvt blindly... On most maps you can take safe routes though.
I face all kinds of bio timings to attack the third. 6 queens are ridiculously strong against bio, it's hilarious when people are that stupid. Cant go 6 queen if you get gas before ~45 though. I wouldn't recommend making roaches in ZvT unless you are facing mech or double fact hellions. I dont think most high level terran get roaches to protect their third, they rely on queens and speedlings. If terran goes 1 rax FE, he won't have any kind of attack that can kill the third that queens and speedlings and banelings can't handle, as long as you stop droning around 60 drones, you should be fine against any sort of 2 base all-in.
I updated the post to include rep analysis. basically you lost because of poor macro, although lack of scouting is a factor, id say you really lost purely to macro.
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Okay fine, I'll reread your guide and watch all the replays I feel terribly unsafe sending out overlords against a Terran, because marines can shoot up. Perhaps I should make 4-6 lings so I don't have to worry about 1-2 marine hitsquads?
If you gas steal you can know if his marines are on the map or staying at home, letting you move your overlords around freely for a few minutes.
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On August 14 2012 05:41 Belial88 wrote:
^ Yes, terran marines can shoot up. Which is why you take safe overlord routes, and use overlords to scout....
For example, cloud kingdom. Send initial overlord to spot for expo, then move it to watch the ramp. If you see him send out a marine, have your 9 overlord go all along the edge of the map and take a very long, scenic route, and if he doesnt send out a marine, like 99% of terrans dont because it puts you vulnerable to all-ins, then you get that scout off. It's well worth the risk anyways than having to make 5 spores every single zvt blindly... On most maps you can take safe routes though.
I face all kinds of bio timings to attack the third. 6 queens are ridiculously strong against bio, it's hilarious when people are that stupid. Cant go 6 queen if you get gas before ~45 though. I wouldn't recommend making roaches in ZvT unless you are facing mech or double fact hellions. I dont think most high level terran get roaches to protect their third, they rely on queens and speedlings. If terran goes 1 rax FE, he won't have any kind of attack that can kill the third that queens and speedlings and banelings can't handle, as long as you stop droning around 60 drones, you should be fine against any sort of 2 base all-in.
I updated the post to include rep analysis. basically you lost because of poor macro, although lack of scouting is a factor, id say you really lost purely to macro.
Right, I remember that was in the guide Didn't think of that though, good ideas. I usually take a 27 gas, 5:30 third, 44 roach warren + gas and go for a roach/ling/bane bust. I often run into terran bio timings on the way, so I smile, laugh, and win the game right there. I use the roaches for offense, not defense. It just often works out that they happen to be useful for defense.
I guess I'll try playing more defensive, but I always have trouble with banshee/hellion, even with queens, spores, spines, and roaches. I also notice with the bio style that if they lose their army on the map to fungals + upgraded lings, morphing 8 banelings and busting down a repaired wall = gg, it's insane.
Yeah I lost to bad macro, but I had no idea what to do. I'd say I lost the game during his second attack, the rest was just nails in the coffin.
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^ oh, if you are planning to be offensive with them, go for it. That's just not standard macro oriented play, that's kind of cheesy, so i wasn't assuming you were doing that. You did just say how much you love the D
You took gas early in that game, maybe as a reaction to no expo, I'm not sure. But if you go 5+ queens, you can't get gas until like 50+, unless you want to kill your drone count or not take a third. With 6 queens you should easily hold any sort of 1 rax fe pressure up until about 70 supply, where you'd need to start lings/spores/banes for possible pressures.
You lost the game during the first attack. Even though you held with no losses, you didn't macro at all behind it, which put you too far behind a Terran who was pumping marines and got an expo up, yet was going to deny your third. If you had started speed when you had 100 gas immediately, you would have been able to take a third easily and have had speed much earlier and held that 2nd push easily, or, if you didnt even get speed or make 2 spines pre-emptively, you would simply have been able to pump enough lings to hold his push easily, and to recover from any little damage you would have taken, by being so far ahead. You were at 20 drones when you should have been around 35 drones. His continued pressure just made so you never droned up again, but you should have been around 35 drones when his attack was over with. You only reached that when his 2nd time actually arrived, not even, you fell down to about 30 after making some buildings, when you should have been at 50+ when he arrived.
I dont think you realize how far behind your macro is.
I guess I'll try playing more defensive, but I always have trouble with banshee/hellion, even with queens, spores, spines, and roaches. I also notice with the bio style that if they lose their army on the map to fungals + upgraded lings, morphing 8 banelings and busting down a repaired wall = gg, it's insane.
Banshee/hellion should be pretty simple to hold, as long as you dont take gas too early. Just get 2 xgas after taking your third, at about 50 supply, hotkey your pool so speed will be started when you have 100 and then it'll be done in time, and get 2 evo chambers at 70 supply. Start a spore at each, with an extra at the third, and make some lings at 70+ supply. With 6 queens (keep the 3 extra queens on a separate hotkey so they can handle pressure), you should be able to deal with anything, along with the reinforcing lings to make sure he doesn't run past the queens. It takes practice, though.
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On August 14 2012 06:31 Belial88 wrote:^ oh, if you are planning to be offensive with them, go for it. That's just not standard macro oriented play, that's kind of cheesy, so i wasn't assuming you were doing that. You did just say how much you love the D You took gas early in that game, maybe as a reaction to no expo, I'm not sure. But if you go 5+ queens, you can't get gas until like 50+, unless you want to kill your drone count or not take a third. With 6 queens you should easily hold any sort of 1 rax fe pressure up until about 70 supply, where you'd need to start lings/spores/banes for possible pressures. You lost the game during the first attack. Even though you held with no losses, you didn't macro at all behind it, which put you too far behind a Terran who was pumping marines and got an expo up, yet was going to deny your third. If you had started speed when you had 100 gas immediately, you would have been able to take a third easily and have had speed much earlier and held that 2nd push easily, or, if you didnt even get speed or make 2 spines pre-emptively, you would simply have been able to pump enough lings to hold his push easily, and to recover from any little damage you would have taken, by being so far ahead. You were at 20 drones when you should have been around 35 drones. His continued pressure just made so you never droned up again, but you should have been around 35 drones when his attack was over with. You only reached that when his 2nd time actually arrived, not even, you fell down to about 30 after making some buildings, when you should have been at 50+ when he arrived. I dont think you realize how far behind your macro is. Show nested quote +I guess I'll try playing more defensive, but I always have trouble with banshee/hellion, even with queens, spores, spines, and roaches. I also notice with the bio style that if they lose their army on the map to fungals + upgraded lings, morphing 8 banelings and busting down a repaired wall = gg, it's insane. Banshee/hellion should be pretty simple to hold, as long as you dont take gas too early. Just get 2 xgas after taking your third, at about 50 supply, hotkey your pool so speed will be started when you have 100 and then it'll be done in time, and get 2 evo chambers at 70 supply. Start a spore at each, with an extra at the third, and make some lings at 70+ supply. With 6 queens (keep the 3 extra queens on a separate hotkey so they can handle pressure), you should be able to deal with anything, along with the reinforcing lings to make sure he doesn't run past the queens. It takes practice, though.
ZvT Antiga Shityard
Here's a replay of things going successfully, please watch and point out macro flaws! If my macro's as bad as you say it is, I'd like some examples if it in a game that I'm in control and do well I like the build because if he plays greedy, I typically straight up win, and if he makes units then I have map control to freely saturate my third + take a fourth. I see that game, I didn't make an efficient defense and that cost me the game.
Interesting, didn't realize that terran's options were so limited. So at 50 supply do I make drones or lings to deal with 2base timings? Both hellion/marauder and MMM can be dealt with queen/spling?
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^ It's more like 6 queens are strong, and 6 queens + reactive lings will hold any pressure from a Terran who took gas as late as one who went 1 rax FE, not that terran options are limited. Also, the real strength of 6 queen fast third is macro - it's not as much queens are OP or anything, but with sheer macro brute force, you will easily hold anything because you can make so much so quickly after about 60 supply, as long as you macro well and dont take gas too early.
Hellion/marauder and MMM from a 1 rax FE won't come until about 90+ supply, ie you should start pumping units at 70+.
Why exactly do you want me to watch the rep? What happens in the game? Can't you watch it ;/
This sort of thing people pay for lol. i already spend too much time here. if there's something particular you cant figure out yourself, i can help you, if you macro'd well in that game then you macro'd well, im just saying you macro'd badly in the 2 rax game, thats why you lost it. im sure you dont just pause and make nothing and bank 500+ money at 25 supply in a normal game, but in a game with a 2 rax into 4 rax into expo, it just put you severely behind when you should have had a game winning lead.
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EPT
