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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
^ Before grabbing your third, or thinking of it, you have to see the lair timing of the opponent. If he's rushing lair, as in starting it at like 30 supply or earlier even, then you can't go 3 bases. Just grab a normal, macro focused ~50 supply lair, defend with spores, and then come out with the win with either more mutas on a stronger econ, or infestor/queen to secure your third and use roaches before mutas come out to prevent him from getting his third too quickly.
If he goes normal lair timing though at like 60+ supply, you can take your third.
If you aren't exactly sure, you can always just lair and then take your third when you figure out what he's doing, or after you've made some roaches.
The best lair timing for 3 hatch before lair would be like 70, assuming a roach play from the opponent. If he's going mutas you have to have it like 10 supply after him, which basically means he has to be going maybe 40 supply lair at earliest for you to be able to grab a third, otherwise he will have mutas too quickly and your tech will be way too late.
2. Just poke in. I always send my 3rd overlord to hide by the main of the opponent (starting overlord to his natural, 2nd overlord in front of his base and then moved behind natural mineral line when he gets natural, 3rd overlord to his main to check for lair, 4th in front of my base, or switch 3 and 4 around).
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Hi guys, i've just been promoted to silver and i find it very difficult against Toss especially on cloud kingdom, i always go for macro but now it's getting harder to defend especialy the 3rd and loose to large pushes.
I'd like to experiment with some effective aggression is there something you recommend especially for FFE, always waited to engage out in the open because of wall in and cannons since it's hard for me to understand when i have a clear advantage to break in.
Thanks!
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On March 14 2012 00:57 AlmightyRaiden wrote:
Hi guys, i've just been promoted to silver and i find it very difficult against Toss especially on cloud kingdom, i always go for macro but now it's getting harder to defend especialy the 3rd and loose to large pushes.
I'd like to experiment with some effective aggression is there something you recommend especially for FFE, always waited to engage out in the open because of wall in and cannons since it's hard for me to understand when i have a clear advantage to break in.
Thanks!
Creep spread to the third is extra important. Also, good overlord spread is required just because of the multiple pathways to your third base. There isn't really anything aggression-wise Zerg can do without going all-in or falling behind. A six pool, I guess, would be viable because you essentially reset the game, and your Protoss opponent is kind of thrown off. If they're doing any early aggression (which would normally be around 8-9 minutes in a higher-level setting), knowing the proxy pylon's location is extremely helpful as it allows you to position your units/spread your creep in the correct direction.
As for mid game aggression, roach/ling is very effective on this map as there are multiple attack routes (two by the 3rd and one to the natural). It's important that you clear the rocks on the ramp to the Protoss natural to allow for more surface area and less FF effectiveness. Late game, it gets really good for Zerg because spine crawler walls are much more effective due to the architecture of the map. The ramps make it hard for the Protoss to push effectively and gives your infestors the needed advantage due to the short cast range of fungal.
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On March 14 2012 01:31 romelako wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 00:57 AlmightyRaiden wrote:
Hi guys, i've just been promoted to silver and i find it very difficult against Toss especially on cloud kingdom, i always go for macro but now it's getting harder to defend especialy the 3rd and loose to large pushes.
I'd like to experiment with some effective aggression is there something you recommend especially for FFE, always waited to engage out in the open because of wall in and cannons since it's hard for me to understand when i have a clear advantage to break in.
Thanks! Creep spread to the third is extra important. Also, good overlord spread is required just because of the multiple pathways to your third base. There isn't really anything aggression-wise Zerg can do without going all-in or falling behind. A six pool, I guess, would be viable because you essentially reset the game, and your Protoss opponent is kind of thrown off. If they're doing any early aggression (which would normally be around 8-9 minutes in a higher-level setting), knowing the proxy pylon's location is extremely helpful as it allows you to position your units/spread your creep in the correct direction. As for mid game aggression, roach/ling is very effective on this map as there are multiple attack routes (two by the 3rd and one to the natural). It's important that you clear the rocks on the ramp to the Protoss natural to allow for more surface area and less FF effectiveness. Late game, it gets really good for Zerg because spine crawler walls are much more effective due to the architecture of the map. The ramps make it hard for the Protoss to push effectively and gives your infestors the needed advantage due to the short cast range of fungal.
Thanks for the answer! i already do creep spread and scout around for pylons, i don't scout the base as much as i should thought and if the army is there i'll be in the dark, will work on that.
I wasn't referring to 6pool kind of aggression but maybe an early enough timing to break in before toss gets lots of units out?
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Played a 60 minute game vs terran sky mech. I lose.
http://drop.sc/133276
So my analysis. I open up well no idea he was going mech so I went muta ling bling and I stopped at like 12 mutas or so because I saw it was mech at that point. Did some damage, maxed out on roaches off three base and then pushed with roach bling ling, taking out some scvs, his entire army and his third. I take out his third two or three times this game but he manages to still be in the game mining just off one base most of the time since at this point hes mined out. Though he's got a huge air army, vikings, banshees and ravens with thor and hellion support. I can't beat it. I just can't beat it. He keeps sending 4-8 hellions in the late game which always snipes atleast 8 drones or so. A 400 mineral investment pays off killing 400 minerals which then must be replaced because its a worker, and I don't know how to stop this hellion harass effectively at this point in the lategame. Though the game was over before this.
- I tried Roach Queen Corruptor, didn't work.
- Roach Hydra with infestor, didn't work.
- Roach mass infestor, didnt work.
- Brood lords with infestors and corruptors, didnt get to that point nor would've it worked if you check the replay.
I end the game asking him how I'm supposed to beat this, and when he doesnt help me I kind of rage out.
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^ Why didn't you replace your first maxed roach army with some infestors, and then after attacking again go broodlords?
it sounds like you had the lead at the mid-game - you denied the third, and traded armies efficiently with mass roach, to reset his army count, to let you tech up.
I'll watch the replay later, but it sounded like you shouldn't went for BL/infestor but you didn't. If he's going sky army, mass corruptor+infestor works well.
anyways, will watch.
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On March 14 2012 00:52 Belial88 wrote:
^ Before grabbing your third, or thinking of it, you have to see the lair timing of the opponent. If he's rushing lair, as in starting it at like 30 supply or earlier even, then you can't go 3 bases. Just grab a normal, macro focused ~50 supply lair, defend with spores, and then come out with the win with either more mutas on a stronger econ, or infestor/queen to secure your third and use roaches before mutas come out to prevent him from getting his third too quickly.
If he goes normal lair timing though at like 60+ supply, you can take your third.
If you aren't exactly sure, you can always just lair and then take your third when you figure out what he's doing, or after you've made some roaches.
The best lair timing for 3 hatch before lair would be like 70, assuming a roach play from the opponent. If he's going mutas you have to have it like 10 supply after him, which basically means he has to be going maybe 40 supply lair at earliest for you to be able to grab a third, otherwise he will have mutas too quickly and your tech will be way too late.
2. Just poke in. I always send my 3rd overlord to hide by the main of the opponent (starting overlord to his natural, 2nd overlord in front of his base and then moved behind natural mineral line when he gets natural, 3rd overlord to his main to check for lair, 4th in front of my base, or switch 3 and 4 around).
Thanks, i appreciate it. Your posts are always very helpful to people like me that like knowing benchmarks related to numbers (supply or time).
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On March 14 2012 03:38 Belial88 wrote:
^ Why didn't you replace your first maxed roach army with some infestors, and then after attacking again go broodlords?
it sounds like you had the lead at the mid-game - you denied the third, and traded armies efficiently with mass roach, to reset his army count, to let you tech up.
I'll watch the replay later, but it sounded like you shouldn't went for BL/infestor but you didn't. If he's going sky army, mass corruptor+infestor works well.
anyways, will watch.
Because he had like 6 ravens, 14 vikings and 10 banshees and these arn't accurate numbers he probably had more and then ontop of that like 4-5 thors. That would rape mass air, HSM and vikings with thor splash would rape corruptors.
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On March 14 2012 03:09 Olsson wrote:Played a 60 minute game vs terran sky mech. I lose. http://drop.sc/133276So my analysis. I open up well no idea he was going mech so I went muta ling bling and I stopped at like 12 mutas or so because I saw it was mech at that point. Did some damage, maxed out on roaches off three base and then pushed with roach bling ling, taking out some scvs, his entire army and his third. I take out his third two or three times this game but he manages to still be in the game mining just off one base most of the time since at this point hes mined out. Though he's got a huge air army, vikings, banshees and ravens with thor and hellion support. I can't beat it. I just can't beat it. He keeps sending 4-8 hellions in the late game which always snipes atleast 8 drones or so. A 400 mineral investment pays off killing 400 minerals which then must be replaced because its a worker, and I don't know how to stop this hellion harass effectively at this point in the lategame. Though the game was over before this. - I tried Roach Queen Corruptor, didn't work. - Roach Hydra with infestor, didn't work. - Roach mass infestor, didnt work. - Brood lords with infestors and corruptors, didnt get to that point nor would've it worked if you check the replay. I end the game asking him how I'm supposed to beat this, and when he doesnt help me I kind of rage out.
Watching now buddy.
edit: omg Olsson... you are so much better than this guy, how did you lose...
Well, the bottom line is your decision making is bad. Take no offense to this, you have pretty good mechanics and creep spread (although the spread kind of died down after the midgame), but holy crap your decisions do not compute.
- You start off hatch first blah blah.
- You take a fairly fast Lair, which is usually indicative of 2base muta. However, your spore placement against banshees was bad (a spore in each mineral line works in gold league when people a move banshees, but you're going to want to place it at the top right behind your mineral line so the banshee takes damage straight from its initial approach.
- You take fast Lair... and delay your spire by over a minute. Why?
- You do not scout his tech well enough initially.
- You then find out he's going sky terran... and you make... roach baneling? Okay, good idea, roach baneling then remax on corruptors to clean everything out right? NO, you kill/force lift his third, then you move command into his natural, forget about your roaches, when you could have forced your way up into his main and damaged tech.
- Your muta harass was bad because you had small number of mutas and fairly bad muta micro, you lost a bunch of them for no reason.
- You then stabilize and shoot ahead economically, but your unit composition is all over the place. Why are you upgrading roaches against sky terran? Infestor corruptor >>>>. sky terran. You can get like 3 broods just to shoot at tanks so they dont murder ur infestors, but thats it really.
- You have no corruptors, and are not actively watching your minimap, hence banshees and solo ravens wreck your economy time and time again when they should be easily being sniped.
- At around 25 min, he moves HIS ENTIRE ARMY to the middle of the map IN YOUR VISION. You have 15+ roaches at his 4th base location, you could have danced into his main and killed all his tech and forced him back, then kill his army and gg he cant remax. Instead, you forget about your roaches because you're panicking over how to kill the army coming at you because your unit comp... sucks. Infestor Corruptor >>>>>>>> sky terran
- Late game, again, bad minimap awareness, no scouting. You have overseers, why no changelings? You never know where his hellions are coming from, you don't leave 2 roaches in mineral lines, you have no spines, how can you expect to stop hellion harass?
- Late game, he has 35 supply to your 100 or so. You see his 3 thors at his 4th base, no planetary. You have 20 roaches and a bunch of corruptors. HE HAS 3 THORS WITH 1/1 UPS AGAINSTc20 3/3 ROACHES AND YOU DON'T DO ANYTHING (aka you lost the game right here). You can use corruption on all the thors and just kill them. But no, you run away. HE HAS NOTHING TO DEFEND IN HIS NATURAL OR MAIN, but you don't know this because you aren't scouting actively with changelings. You then allow him to get tanks to his thors, and you SEE them walk by, and you let them, then they meet the thors and u cant engage. From here, you have bad econ, bad unit comp, and he just rolls you.
You should have won that game about 20 times and didn't.
Bad unit comp, bad scouting, bad army micro (please stop move command please please).
EDIT: Also, WHY WOULD YOU GO HYDRAS? AHHHHH I cringed when I saw that. imagine if all those hydras were corruptors.
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Hi, I'm a silver player and having trouble dealing with fast voidrays that end up being a big voidray army with gateway units. Anyways i'm asking how do you guys typically deal with voidrays. Hydras and infestors? mutalisks?
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@Flono: Thanks. I didn't know he was going sky terran which was a lack of scouting on my part. The roach baneling was a response to mech taking a fast third. Anyways I did do some bad decisions and I didn't know if I could've killed three thors with repairing scvs with the roaches I had, it felt like a gamble which I now realize I could've won. Anyways thanks again!
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On February 23 2012 03:53 Grayboosh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 03:44 Olsson wrote:
ZvT again broskis.
1. When do you get a macro hatch when doing the following. 15 Hatch 15 Pool 17 Extractor, get speed and then have one mining gas and get lair at 100 gas. You get one spine crawler and one extra queen (three in total). Some games I seem to afford it and some games I don't. I feel that it's not good to drop a macro hatch if I have larvae and money sitting around though having a 50% increase in production when making lings especially is really really good.
Opinions on this? I'm zerg high masters though ZvT is probably my worst matchup lol. Unless you're using roaches, you need a macro hatch to support ling production. Get your macro hatch once you have two-base mineral saturation. I used to forgo the macro hatch and just get my third expo instead (building a macro hatch later), but the fact is that your macro hatch is to support production from 2 base saturation. Your third expo is for increased economy. If you forego the macro hatch and just build a third expo, your production suffers because you won't have enough larvae to keep up with drones and lings. I've also found that fending off a 10-minute push is muuuuuuuuch easier with a macro hatch already finished.
The macro hatch you're talking about before the third, that's only ZvT right? vs P you want to do a quick 3 base w/out macro hatch (vs the FFE) right?
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Is there any composition from zerg that beats archon/colossus/VR/high templar? Or do you just absolutely have to prevent protoss from getting to that point?
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On March 14 2012 09:42 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Is there any composition from zerg that beats archon/colossus/VR/high templar? Or do you just absolutely have to prevent protoss from getting to that point?
I think you have to stop them getting to that point. I mean I'm sure BL/Corrupter/Festor would put a significant dent in it, but yea that's kind of an ultimate army. They must be getting that off 5 bases tho, so you should be doing multi progned attacks every which way and try and force a base trade of some sort, or just kill some of their tech to slow down their enevitable remax.
I think thats how I would play it out, but my games never get that far in..
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On March 14 2012 09:42 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Is there any composition from zerg that beats archon/colossus/VR/high templar? Or do you just absolutely have to prevent protoss from getting to that point?
Well are we including a mothership?
If so, no, I do not think so.
Without mothership, just get a LOT of broods. Like, 20-30. Rest all Infestors, you probably want like 15. If you can get NP off on some archons, that would help immensely, protoss units are good. Uh, but yeah, don't let them get that comp on 5 base, you cannot trade efficiently and beat their remax. If they go for it off 3 base, trade as best you can then win with remax.
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On March 14 2012 10:21 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 09:42 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Is there any composition from zerg that beats archon/colossus/VR/high templar? Or do you just absolutely have to prevent protoss from getting to that point? Well are we including a mothership? If so, no, I do not think so. Without mothership, just get a LOT of broods. Like, 20-30. Rest all Infestors, you probably want like 15. If you can get NP off on some archons, that would help immensely, protoss units are good. Uh, but yeah, don't let them get that comp on 5 base, you cannot trade efficiently and beat their remax. If they go for it off 3 base, trade as best you can then win with remax.
Yea, he had a mothership but it died pretty fast to corruptors. I never let him get the energy for a vortex.
My main issue was that he was pretty good with his HT micro and kept using feedback on all of my infestors, so I was never able to fungal and IT spam to get rid of the VR's, so I just kept losing more and more units.
The comp started when his 4th base was up, and he ended up getting a 5th base afterwards. I tried a ling runby but he walled the top of the ramp off with 3 pylons =[
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Any tips on dealing with blueflame hellion+ stim marauder push off a reactor hellion expand? I've got a replay somewhere, but basically I macroed up decently well, dropped 3 spines in front (1 early, 2 later) and managed about 3 hops worth of creep out my front door. When the push came I tried to engage on creep with a ling-heavy roach/ling composition and got absolutely wrecked. The ~9 marauders made short work of the spines and roaches, and about 10-12 hellions bbq'd my lings. It was ST so my units kinda funneled out, didn't get a flank. 2 base, 3 hatch, with one building at the 3rd when I got hit. My scouting was subpar beyond his opening that game, so it kinda hit me by surprise, but I still don't know what a good response would have been had I seen it coming.
edit: found it, lost 5 drones to early BFH, was at a macro disadvantage. Still... stuff got dead fast 
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@ nanoscorp:
generally it´s like that: small numbers of helion/maurauder(/rines) means you can beat it with lings(+roaches), big numbers will get too strong, you will need lair units, either mutas or infestors.
the usual zerg builds have at first enough zerglings to deal with early pushes and the infestors/mutas should just pop out in time to deal with bigger pushes.
9 maurauder+12 blue flame helions,i would say you should get to mutas to deal with that. if your lair got delayed you are in a bad situation, only chance is to hold with ling/spine queens and so on, but that sucks.
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what's the minimum amount of energy (infestor wise) i can waste to kill a medvac at 100% health? I've been doing 2 fungals and 3 IT's. is that right tor am i wasting more than i should. this is assuming I have 2 or more infestors
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On March 15 2012 09:56 Mvrio wrote:
what's the minimum amount of energy (infestor wise) i can waste to kill a medvac at 100% health? I've been doing 2 fungals and 3 IT's. is that right tor am i wasting more than i should. this is assuming I have 2 or more infestors
I think that's it. 4 fungals to kill medivac.
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EPT
